Honestly. I don't think that, if a Circle is ran the way it should, it would treat the mages all that horribly.
Tranquility is anything other than atrocious. Mages should be free or exterminated.
Meh. I don't know to mean having that point of view makes the issue sound simpler than it is.
I can't say that complete freedom or total annihilation are very good options.
But really, there isn't a good option, why you have the conflict in the first place.
In my opinion it is better to have 5 blood mages running around than have 1 innocent mage locked away. Send Templars after the ones rampaging, hell hire some of the respectable mages into the Templars and let them kill the crazies. But ripping children away from their parents, tearing fathers and mothers away from their children, forcing people into a lifetime of imprisonment where they are forbidden to live freely, persue their own interests or even fall in love, when they have done nothign to deserve it just because there is a potential for violence is, in my opinion, wrong. And something that should be fought against.
That nice and idealistic but it lacks any real responsibility. Okay, 1 innocent mage gets free but you've got 5 potentially ruining the lives of other innocent people to.
I mean don't those innocent people have a right to live too? What do you do to protect them?
Just shrugging your shoulders and saying "Oh well" isn't good enough.
I feel like it's pretty straightforward, and I'm actually kind of happy with how the whole situation is treated. Mages are a huge goddamn threat to all people, everywhere. The easiest solution is to lock them up (in Circles) or enslave them (like Tevinter and the Qun do). It's kind of a half-measure, though.
But from a humanitarian perspective, there's no way out that isn't committing an atrocity or giving them freedom.
I wouldn't take the tevinter or qunari as examples of anything but themselves...if that makes sense.
Especially given tevinter has a circle and Templar. Having mages register with there local templar chapter, phylactery and all seems like pretty good middle ground to me have the circles changed to schools. have the templar be the policing arm of the chantry which most seem to think they are until some lady cloistered away decides to call an exalted march.
Thinking on it the system is flawed at it's roots which is something I hope we'll be dealing with in da3.
+1
DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
Ah...I see.
Well, yeah. I agree with you.
It is pretty fucked up, but at the same time its reasonable given everything that can happen.
It has been like 40 posts since the last one I was able to read
You will all feel my vengeance one day
Just think about that glorious day when you get the click all the spoilers.
With my luck you guys have been comparing the ME3 and DA2 endings the whole time
DA2's ending is so much worse than ME3's, don't know why only the later got any discussion about it
At least it has continuity, me3 had squad mates teleporting around and behaving wildly out of character. it's definitely a holding pattern for an expansion that never came.
It has been like 40 posts since the last one I was able to read
You will all feel my vengeance one day
Just think about that glorious day when you get the click all the spoilers.
With my luck you guys have been comparing the ME3 and DA2 endings the whole time
DA2's ending is so much worse than ME3's, don't know why only the later got any discussion about it
DA2's ending was pretty terrible, but at least it didn't destroy the entire plot like ME3's. I mean, at the end of DA2 Blood Mages and oppressive Templars are still the bad guys and not the noble heroes who need to save everyone by constantly committing genocide. You know.
0
DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
Guys. I think there are some people who haven't beat ME3 who are planning on doing it so could we keep it spoilers to a minimum.
ME already pours over into other threads too much as is.
It has been like 40 posts since the last one I was able to read
You will all feel my vengeance one day
Just think about that glorious day when you get the click all the spoilers.
With my luck you guys have been comparing the ME3 and DA2 endings the whole time
DA2's ending is so much worse than ME3's, don't know why only the later got any discussion about it
Because its not...?
DA2 has two possible endings.
The siding with the Templars ending is good in a everything went horribly wrong but at least makes sense kind of way.
The side with Mages ending makes no sense because executive meddling came to the DA2 team at the last minute and said "Since the Templar ending has two final bosses, the Mage ending must have two final bosses as well!" The DA2 team didn't have enough time to completely redo the end to fit in another boss, so they just enabled the Orsino fight.
Honestly. I don't think that, if a Circle is ran the way it should, it would treat the mages all that horribly.
Tranquility is anything other than atrocious. Mages should be free or exterminated.
Meh. I don't know to mean having that point of view makes the issue sound simpler than it is.
I can't say that complete freedom or total annihilation are very good options.
But really, there isn't a good option, why you have the conflict in the first place.
In my opinion it is better to have 5 blood mages running around than have 1 innocent mage locked away. Send Templars after the ones rampaging, hell hire some of the respectable mages into the Templars and let them kill the crazies. But ripping children away from their parents, tearing fathers and mothers away from their children, forcing people into a lifetime of imprisonment where they are forbidden to live freely, persue their own interests or even fall in love, when they have done nothign to deserve it just because there is a potential for violence is, in my opinion, wrong. And something that should be fought against.
That nice and idealistic but it lacks any real responsibility. Okay, 1 innocent mage gets free but you've got 5 potentially ruining the lives of other innocent people to.
I mean don't those innocent people have a right to live too? What do you do to protect them?
Just shrugging your shoulders and saying "Oh well" isn't good enough.
When a mage goes all evil, you hunt them down and kill them. But locking them away before a crime is commited is not something I can condone or support. Why don't you lock up all the armies of Ferelden and Orlais and Tevinter and everything? Armies have the potential to ruin peoples lives too, and kill innocent people. What about the Quniari? They have things that can cause just as much devistation as mages, shouldn't they be locked up on sight since the potential is there? Hell, every man, woman, and child can pick up a knife and potentially kill their neighbor, better imprison them too.
Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, be warned: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
I wouldn't take the tevinter or qunari as examples of anything but themselves...if that makes sense.
Especially given tevinter has a circle and Templar. Having mages register with there local templar chapter, phylactery and all seems like pretty good middle ground to me have the circles changed to schools. have the templar be the policing arm of the chantry which most seem to think they are until some lady cloistered away decides to call an exalted march.
Thinking on it the system is flawed at it's roots which is something I hope we'll be dealing with in da3.
Templars as Mage police looks good on paper, but it's exactly what lead to the situation in Kirkwall. You're codifying an "us v. them" situation, and it leads to all sorts of fear and abuse.
Hell, real world example: look at cops and the thin blue line. A frequently antagonistic relationship dotted with abuses of authority.
Honestly. I don't think that, if a Circle is ran the way it should, it would treat the mages all that horribly.
Tranquility is anything other than atrocious. Mages should be free or exterminated.
Meh. I don't know to mean having that point of view makes the issue sound simpler than it is.
I can't say that complete freedom or total annihilation are very good options.
But really, there isn't a good option, why you have the conflict in the first place.
In my opinion it is better to have 5 blood mages running around than have 1 innocent mage locked away. Send Templars after the ones rampaging, hell hire some of the respectable mages into the Templars and let them kill the crazies. But ripping children away from their parents, tearing fathers and mothers away from their children, forcing people into a lifetime of imprisonment where they are forbidden to live freely, persue their own interests or even fall in love, when they have done nothign to deserve it just because there is a potential for violence is, in my opinion, wrong. And something that should be fought against.
That nice and idealistic but it lacks any real responsibility. Okay, 1 innocent mage gets free but you've got 5 potentially ruining the lives of other innocent people to.
I mean don't those innocent people have a right to live too? What do you do to protect them?
Just shrugging your shoulders and saying "Oh well" isn't good enough.
When a mage goes all evil, you hunt them down and kill them. But locking them away before a crime is commited is not something I can condone or support. Why don't you lock up all the armies of Ferelden and Orlais and Tevinter and everything? Armies have the potential to ruin peoples lives too, and kill innocent people. What about the Quniari? They have things that can cause just as much devistation as mages, shouldn't they be locked up on sight since the potential is there? Hell, every man, woman, and child can pick up a knife and potentially kill their neighbor, better imprison them too.
Well. The thing about that is that armies can cause mass destruction but at the will of the people(or the people in power). It is for the most part a conscience choice.
A mage that becomes possessed doesn't really have control over their actions, which is shown many times. And having that much power with that little control just isn't good for anyone.
And I'm sorry, but a knife just isn't the same as the power to bend reality, it just isn't. Unless you're rolling Rogue.
And I'm sorry, but a knife just isn't the same as the power to bend reality, it just isn't. Unless you're rolling Rogue.
Oh! Maybe this is the problem. Because I do
Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, be warned: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
0
chiasaur11Never doubt a raccoon.Do you think it's trademarked?Registered Userregular
Honestly. I don't think that, if a Circle is ran the way it should, it would treat the mages all that horribly.
Tranquility is anything other than atrocious. Mages should be free or exterminated.
Meh. I don't know to mean having that point of view makes the issue sound simpler than it is.
I can't say that complete freedom or total annihilation are very good options.
But really, there isn't a good option, why you have the conflict in the first place.
In my opinion it is better to have 5 blood mages running around than have 1 innocent mage locked away. Send Templars after the ones rampaging, hell hire some of the respectable mages into the Templars and let them kill the crazies. But ripping children away from their parents, tearing fathers and mothers away from their children, forcing people into a lifetime of imprisonment where they are forbidden to live freely, persue their own interests or even fall in love, when they have done nothign to deserve it just because there is a potential for violence is, in my opinion, wrong. And something that should be fought against.
That nice and idealistic but it lacks any real responsibility. Okay, 1 innocent mage gets free but you've got 5 potentially ruining the lives of other innocent people to.
I mean don't those innocent people have a right to live too? What do you do to protect them?
Just shrugging your shoulders and saying "Oh well" isn't good enough.
When a mage goes all evil, you hunt them down and kill them. But locking them away before a crime is commited is not something I can condone or support. Why don't you lock up all the armies of Ferelden and Orlais and Tevinter and everything? Armies have the potential to ruin peoples lives too, and kill innocent people. What about the Quniari? They have things that can cause just as much devistation as mages, shouldn't they be locked up on sight since the potential is there? Hell, every man, woman, and child can pick up a knife and potentially kill their neighbor, better imprison them too.
Because a soldier, with the exception of a few luminaries like Hawke, is limited.
Yes. In a berserk rage he could kill someone. Maybe ten people. Twenty. But then he dies on a pike, and the whole matter is resolved.
A single blood mage has the potential to take over a kingdom and make everyone in it into meat puppets. And mages are walking demon bait to boot.
It isn't like Warhammer 40K, where the man's response to "can be possessed by demons" is a fascist police state. Circle isn't nice, but it's the best option of a bad lot. There's improvements possible, obviously, and a system to give mages a little more slack once they've proven themselves reliable wouldn't be bad, but as things stand, mages need to be kept in line.
Honestly. I don't think that, if a Circle is ran the way it should, it would treat the mages all that horribly.
Tranquility is anything other than atrocious. Mages should be free or exterminated.
Meh. I don't know to mean having that point of view makes the issue sound simpler than it is.
I can't say that complete freedom or total annihilation are very good options.
But really, there isn't a good option, why you have the conflict in the first place.
In my opinion it is better to have 5 blood mages running around than have 1 innocent mage locked away. Send Templars after the ones rampaging, hell hire some of the respectable mages into the Templars and let them kill the crazies. But ripping children away from their parents, tearing fathers and mothers away from their children, forcing people into a lifetime of imprisonment where they are forbidden to live freely, persue their own interests or even fall in love, when they have done nothign to deserve it just because there is a potential for violence is, in my opinion, wrong. And something that should be fought against.
That nice and idealistic but it lacks any real responsibility. Okay, 1 innocent mage gets free but you've got 5 potentially ruining the lives of other innocent people to.
I mean don't those innocent people have a right to live too? What do you do to protect them?
Just shrugging your shoulders and saying "Oh well" isn't good enough.
When a mage goes all evil, you hunt them down and kill them. But locking them away before a crime is commited is not something I can condone or support. Why don't you lock up all the armies of Ferelden and Orlais and Tevinter and everything? Armies have the potential to ruin peoples lives too, and kill innocent people. What about the Quniari? They have things that can cause just as much devistation as mages, shouldn't they be locked up on sight since the potential is there? Hell, every man, woman, and child can pick up a knife and potentially kill their neighbor, better imprison them too.
Well. The thing about that is that armies can cause mass destruction but at the will of the people(or the people in power). It is for the most part a conscience choice.
A mage that becomes possessed doesn't really have control over their actions, which is shown many times. And having that much power with that little control just isn't good for anyone.
And I'm sorry, but a knife just isn't the same as the power to bend reality, it just isn't. Unless you're rolling Rogue.
He covered that though, not every mage is an abomination punishing all mages because what they might do or be made to do is ludicrous and would never last in any realistic society not because people are decent but because mage rebellions would be something you'd hear about every two months, it was frankly getting a bit hard to believe that so many mages were willing to be subjugated for so long.
I mean you're locking large groups of powerful people in claustrophobic situations, threatening to take away everything that makes them who they are at every moment of the day unless the templar in question was feeling generous in which case they'd just be killed (I can't be the only one who wanted to punch meridiths face in for keeping a tranquil aid can I?) all from childhood. It's a terrible system morally but it's also terrible mechanically, it was never going to last.
Acharenus on
0
DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
Honestly. I don't think that, if a Circle is ran the way it should, it would treat the mages all that horribly.
Tranquility is anything other than atrocious. Mages should be free or exterminated.
Meh. I don't know to mean having that point of view makes the issue sound simpler than it is.
I can't say that complete freedom or total annihilation are very good options.
But really, there isn't a good option, why you have the conflict in the first place.
In my opinion it is better to have 5 blood mages running around than have 1 innocent mage locked away. Send Templars after the ones rampaging, hell hire some of the respectable mages into the Templars and let them kill the crazies. But ripping children away from their parents, tearing fathers and mothers away from their children, forcing people into a lifetime of imprisonment where they are forbidden to live freely, persue their own interests or even fall in love, when they have done nothign to deserve it just because there is a potential for violence is, in my opinion, wrong. And something that should be fought against.
That nice and idealistic but it lacks any real responsibility. Okay, 1 innocent mage gets free but you've got 5 potentially ruining the lives of other innocent people to.
I mean don't those innocent people have a right to live too? What do you do to protect them?
Just shrugging your shoulders and saying "Oh well" isn't good enough.
When a mage goes all evil, you hunt them down and kill them. But locking them away before a crime is commited is not something I can condone or support. Why don't you lock up all the armies of Ferelden and Orlais and Tevinter and everything? Armies have the potential to ruin peoples lives too, and kill innocent people. What about the Quniari? They have things that can cause just as much devistation as mages, shouldn't they be locked up on sight since the potential is there? Hell, every man, woman, and child can pick up a knife and potentially kill their neighbor, better imprison them too.
Well. The thing about that is that armies can cause mass destruction but at the will of the people(or the people in power). It is for the most part a conscience choice.
A mage that becomes possessed doesn't really have control over their actions, which is shown many times. And having that much power with that little control just isn't good for anyone.
And I'm sorry, but a knife just isn't the same as the power to bend reality, it just isn't. Unless you're rolling Rogue.
He covered that though, not every mage is an abomination punishing all mages because what they might do or be made to do is ludicrous and would never last in any realistic society not because people are decent but because mage rebellions would be something you'd hear about every two months, it was frankly getting a bit hard to believe that so many mages were willing to be subjugated for so long.
I mean you're locking large groups of powerful people in claustrophobic situations, threatening to take away everything that makes them who they are at every moment of the day unless the templar in question was feeling generous in which case they'd just be killed (I can't be the only one who wanted to punch meridiths face in for keeping a tranquil aid can I?) all from childhood. It's a terrible system morally but it's also terrible mechanically, it was never going to last.
I never said that there wouldn't be problems.
Mainly what I've been saying is that there isn't an ideal solution.
It has been like 40 posts since the last one I was able to read
You will all feel my vengeance one day
Just think about that glorious day when you get the click all the spoilers.
With my luck you guys have been comparing the ME3 and DA2 endings the whole time
DA2's ending is so much worse than ME3's, don't know why only the later got any discussion about it
Well, Bioware apologized for DA2's ending.
Wait, they did? I must have not noticed the option to download the extended edition :P
Bioware never apologized for ME3's ending.
They just thought that the problem everyone had was that we didn't get a Fallout-style slideshow at the end telling us how all the decisions we made were good/bad.
A bit vague really, sure there's no solution that makes everyone everywhere happy but that doesn't mean we should give up and lock all of them up for there entire lives and threaten to seal away there souls if they look at us funny.
It's a stagnant and deeply flawed system that also happens to be morally bankrupt. There is middle ground to be had between eternal imprisonment and the fade and reality becoming one and existence being torment without end, I'm just suggesting that we try and find it.
Honestly. I don't think that, if a Circle is ran the way it should, it would treat the mages all that horribly.
Tranquility is anything other than atrocious. Mages should be free or exterminated.
Meh. I don't know to mean having that point of view makes the issue sound simpler than it is.
I can't say that complete freedom or total annihilation are very good options.
But really, there isn't a good option, why you have the conflict in the first place.
In my opinion it is better to have 5 blood mages running around than have 1 innocent mage locked away. Send Templars after the ones rampaging, hell hire some of the respectable mages into the Templars and let them kill the crazies. But ripping children away from their parents, tearing fathers and mothers away from their children, forcing people into a lifetime of imprisonment where they are forbidden to live freely, persue their own interests or even fall in love, when they have done nothign to deserve it just because there is a potential for violence is, in my opinion, wrong. And something that should be fought against.
That nice and idealistic but it lacks any real responsibility. Okay, 1 innocent mage gets free but you've got 5 potentially ruining the lives of other innocent people to.
I mean don't those innocent people have a right to live too? What do you do to protect them?
Just shrugging your shoulders and saying "Oh well" isn't good enough.
When a mage goes all evil, you hunt them down and kill them. But locking them away before a crime is commited is not something I can condone or support. Why don't you lock up all the armies of Ferelden and Orlais and Tevinter and everything? Armies have the potential to ruin peoples lives too, and kill innocent people. What about the Quniari? They have things that can cause just as much devistation as mages, shouldn't they be locked up on sight since the potential is there? Hell, every man, woman, and child can pick up a knife and potentially kill their neighbor, better imprison them too.
Well. The thing about that is that armies can cause mass destruction but at the will of the people(or the people in power). It is for the most part a conscience choice.
A mage that becomes possessed doesn't really have control over their actions, which is shown many times. And having that much power with that little control just isn't good for anyone.
And I'm sorry, but a knife just isn't the same as the power to bend reality, it just isn't. Unless you're rolling Rogue.
He covered that though, not every mage is an abomination punishing all mages because what they might do or be made to do is ludicrous and would never last in any realistic society not because people are decent but because mage rebellions would be something you'd hear about every two months, it was frankly getting a bit hard to believe that so many mages were willing to be subjugated for so long.
Its not that all Mages have the potential to be an abomination that's the problem. Everyone has the potential to do bad. The problem is that if a mage goes bad, he/she/it will take out an entire city before anyone can respond. We saw that in Redcliff. A single rogue mage took out the entire town before the Templars even knew what was happening.
Beyond that, its not like it takes much for Mages to go demonic. All it takes is a single moment of weakness, and the demon can grab a hold of a person, twisting and turning them in an instant so that only a monster remains. And then a city goes bye-bye. Because of this, they have to be controlled.
I think a big issue is that people look at Mages like a person with a gun. Its not, since a person can control a gun. Its more like if a bunch of people caught the Ebola virus, but it then went into remission, still there, but not contagious or hurting anyone at the moment. But one wrong thing, one bad, stressful day could pull the trigger and an epidemic would be on hand.
There are only two real ways to resolve this.
The first is the ideal version of the current method used, all mages are isolated in an environment where they can be monitored for signs of demonic possession while being allowed to live their lives in peace. Locked up in a golden cage, for all intents and purposes. For all intents and purposes, the mages are put in quarantine, so that if things go bad the general populace is not hurt.
The second is to greatly expand the Templars so that there is a solid size force of Templars in every population center that can watch over Mages wherever they go and quickly respond if a mage goes bad. If things go bad in the case, there will still be people hurt, but it will be contained so that entire towns don't get wiped off the map.
The real issue is that we do not know whether its even possible for the Templars to grow in size to make Options 2 a reasonable solution. Remember that according to lore, Templars must take Lyrium to power their abilities to counter magic. Lyrium is treated as a controlled substance, having to be mined to be of use. This makes it a limited, hard to get resource. You also need enough volunteers to field such a force, which could be difficult.
And I'm sorry, but a knife just isn't the same as the power to bend reality, it just isn't. Unless you're rolling Rogue.
Oh! Maybe this is the problem. Because I do
No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between his shoulder blades will severely cramp his style
(I kinda hope they don't even give an option to be a mage PC for DA3)
+1
DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
Meh. I would say that given the circumstances the Circle is one of the better options. I really don't think its lazy, just making the best of a bad situation.
Its easy to say that there is a better situation but really outside of the Circle. You only really have Tevinter, the Qunari, and small mage groups who stay secluded and keep to themselves.
So, its easy to say the grass is greener on the other side when you really don't have anything to go by.
Everything starts somewhere, you have to actually try to find solutions for them to occur. If everyone in the dragon age universe suddenly has the view point of "Why bother trying anything new you might fail" then sure the circle stays the best option...and in a few years they'd all be living in caves or overrun by cattle or something.
da2 ending spoilers
When every circle has risen up in rebellion you can't really answer them with "But it really was the best option, now kindly go back into your cramped towers and allow us to threaten you daily for the rest of your lives" Hopefully da3 amounts to more then lead the mage rebellion/lead the inquisition
They're even worse than walking weapons of mass destruction. They are walking WMD's that can go off an any time, any place, for no reason, then corrupt other mages into a chain reaction, like the Feraldan Circle almost became.
Better try to oppress those dudes and treat them as horribly as you can. What's the worst that could happen?
Man I even agree that mages are potentially very dangerous and definitely need some form of control.
But locking them all up in a big tower for pretty much the rest of their lives doesn't work. Letting the guardians of those towers be full of abusive dicks who hate mages also doesn't work.
Lighter control. More freedoms, much dialogue, mutual understanding, cooperation rather than oppression. That could work, without giving way to another Tevinter.
The Templar's recruitment criteria are apparently completely fucked, and with that so is the dynamic between Mages and Templars. It's a terrible system.
I agree, there should be a better way.
To blame the Templars is kind of unfair to the Templars though. It's true that they are oppressive dicks, but it's not 100% because they are oppressive dicks.
The only way for a Templar to control a mage is to nullify their magic, which requires them to use lyrium, which is highly addictive. It leads to dimensia too. But without it, the mages could revolt at will and there would be no check on the mages.
So, we have a group that's the militant arm of a religion, who controls the only substance that allows non-mages to control mages. The substance is highly addictive and leads to the breakdown of normal mental function that can manifest in psyhcosis -overagression, passiveness, memory loss, and a shit load of other mental issues-.
Or
The Tevinter Empire, which murdered and oppressed a bajillion of people.
Also, their past actions is why Kirkwall is so fucked up in the first place. So many people died there, that the Veil is damn near torn, giving demons easy access to people.
Or
We follow the Qun, and rip out mages tongues and shackle them for life. Which I think is worse than the Chantry. At least the Chantry tries to give mages a life.
It would be nice to find a middle ground, but Thedas hasn't discovered one yet. I do know that trying to exterminate all mages is just stupid, since more will be born eventually. Still, mages need to be controlled and I've only seen two ways to do it: Rip out tongues and shackle the mages or give an army drugs that makes them crazy to controll them.
Mild Confusion on
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
The problem with that is that it isn't an issue of every mage going berserk.
I'm sure that if set free 95% of mages would probably act responsibility.
But with the level of destruction that 5% can cause, it just isn't a chance you can take.
Yep. Even then, mages are constantly under threat of being taken over by demons.
Mages, by their very nature, are closer to the Fade than other humans/elves/whatever. So if they meet a demon in their dreams, they can be taken over. Not all abominations are volunteers, many are forced into becoming abominations.
So, no matter how friendly or peaceful your friend the mage is, one day, he might just randomly wake up and start murdering your whole town, except there are no templars there to put him down.
Mild Confusion on
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
I wouldn't take the tevinter or qunari as examples of anything but themselves...if that makes sense.
Especially given tevinter has a circle and Templar. Having mages register with there local templar chapter, phylactery and all seems like pretty good middle ground to me have the circles changed to schools. have the templar be the policing arm of the chantry which most seem to think they are until some lady cloistered away decides to call an exalted march.
Thinking on it the system is flawed at it's roots which is something I hope we'll be dealing with in da3.
Templars as Mage police looks good on paper, but it's exactly what lead to the situation in Kirkwall. You're codifying an "us v. them" situation, and it leads to all sorts of fear and abuse.
Hell, real world example: look at cops and the thin blue line. A frequently antagonistic relationship dotted with abuses of authority.
The Templars are not why Kirwall was so fucked. It was Tevinter. When the Veil is stretched so thin, it allows demons easier possession of mages. It also affects the temperment of normal people.
Tevinter killed hundreds of thousands of people there. So again, it's the fault of mages.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
The tevinter empire has a chantry and templars and its still held aloft by warfare and slavery I don't think any comparison can be made fairly.
Unless the point is mages in power/given freedom is inherently worse then what the empire is doing.
Because otherwise the only difference seems to be that instead of nobility/clergy holding all the power mages also hold power. In fact we don't hear about mages from the tevinter going abom. We hear of plenty of them controlling demons...A solution does need to be found otherwise we're faced with a war between the chantry and the mages/there supporters on thedas, which will result in far more destruction then the immediate war it may also result in the fade and reality being interchangeable in most places. And that solution will probably need to have learned a few things from an empire run by mages that has very little to no mention of abominations running amock.
This is of course assuming the next game doesn't do a "...And here's where you come in 300 years after one side won"
Tevinter is starting up their blood rituals again.
The Chantry there is a puppet. They are called the Black Divine for a reason. The magisters are fully in power in Tevinter and they are slowly slipping back towards the old ways.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Truefax, I was actually expecting ME3's ending to be worse than it actually was on the basis of DA2's alone, given the anti-hype
ME3's original ending was much worse than DA2's. DA2's ending had some plot holes and encounter goofiness. ME3's ending pretty much shat on the entire spirit of the Mass Effect series.
I feel like it's pretty straightforward, and I'm actually kind of happy with how the whole situation is treated. Mages are a huge goddamn threat to all people, everywhere. The easiest solution is to lock them up (in Circles) or enslave them (like Tevinter and the Qun do). It's kind of a half-measure, though.
The problem with the Circle/enslavement option is that it only accounts for the threat that mages pose without allowing for their benefits as well. I'm not saying mages should necessarily be allowed to run loose, but having mages live less restrictive lives would be a much better solution than the Circle:
-Mages would be available to detect, prevent, and combat Blood Magic and Abominations, when they arose.
-Mages would be available to society at large to perform magic for the public good.
-Mages would be better integrated into society and less likely to resort Blood Magic. Prisons make better criminals. The Circle makes more dangerous Blood Mages.
Tevinter is starting up their blood rituals again.
The Chantry there is a puppet. They are called the Black Divine for a reason. The magisters are fully in power in Tevinter and they are slowly slipping back towards the old ways.
Uh, Tevinter never stopped the old ways. All that changed for them is how much of Thedas they have control over.
0
DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
I feel like it's pretty straightforward, and I'm actually kind of happy with how the whole situation is treated. Mages are a huge goddamn threat to all people, everywhere. The easiest solution is to lock them up (in Circles) or enslave them (like Tevinter and the Qun do). It's kind of a half-measure, though.
The problem with the Circle/enslavement option is that it only accounts for the threat that mages pose without allowing for their benefits as well. I'm not saying mages should necessarily be allowed to run loose, but having mages live restrictive lives would be a much better solution than the Circle:
-Mages would be available to detect, prevent, and combat Blood Magic and Abominations, when they arose.
-Mages would be available to society at large to perform magic for the public good.
-Mages would be better integrated into society and less likely to resort Blood Magic. Prisons make better criminals. The Circle makes more dangerous Blood Mages.
I feel like it's pretty straightforward, and I'm actually kind of happy with how the whole situation is treated. Mages are a huge goddamn threat to all people, everywhere. The easiest solution is to lock them up (in Circles) or enslave them (like Tevinter and the Qun do). It's kind of a half-measure, though.
The problem with the Circle/enslavement option is that it only accounts for the threat that mages pose without allowing for their benefits as well. I'm not saying mages should necessarily be allowed to run loose, but having mages live restrictive lives would be a much better solution than the Circle:
-Mages would be available to detect, prevent, and combat Blood Magic and Abominations, when they arose.
-Mages would be available to society at large to perform magic for the public good.
-Mages would be better integrated into society and less likely to resort Blood Magic. Prisons make better criminals. The Circle makes more dangerous Blood Mages.
So basically, turn mages into the X-men?
X-Men with government oversight. I am anti-Free-All-Mages, but I am Pro-Extend-Mages-Rights.
I'm going to seriously reduce my nerd cred by admitting I know little of the X-Men.
I was thinking that Mages should be handled like the Templars, actually. A few assigned to every local Chantry to help find/suppress apostates while also performing good deeds for the townfolk. That'd let the world benefit from their powers while also keeping them in close proximity to Templars, should they go rogue. In essence, the Chantry would be saying, "if you're born to magic, then you have to undertake mandatory holy orders. This will keep you from damnation and give you an outlet to use your gifts for the greater good." It's not the same as total freedom, but it's much less of a raw deal for both mages and society as a whole.
If most mages were like Wynne or Bethany that would be fine. But most mages are more like Merrill or Morrigan or Jowan or any number of the bad corrupted mages you meet in both games.
Posts
Meh. I don't know to mean having that point of view makes the issue sound simpler than it is.
I can't say that complete freedom or total annihilation are very good options.
But really, there isn't a good option, why you have the conflict in the first place.
That nice and idealistic but it lacks any real responsibility. Okay, 1 innocent mage gets free but you've got 5 potentially ruining the lives of other innocent people to.
I mean don't those innocent people have a right to live too? What do you do to protect them?
Just shrugging your shoulders and saying "Oh well" isn't good enough.
But from a humanitarian perspective, there's no way out that isn't committing an atrocity or giving them freedom.
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
Especially given tevinter has a circle and Templar. Having mages register with there local templar chapter, phylactery and all seems like pretty good middle ground to me have the circles changed to schools. have the templar be the policing arm of the chantry which most seem to think they are until some lady cloistered away decides to call an exalted march.
Thinking on it the system is flawed at it's roots which is something I hope we'll be dealing with in da3.
Well, yeah. I agree with you.
It is pretty fucked up, but at the same time its reasonable given everything that can happen.
DA2's ending is so much worse than ME3's, don't know why only the later got any discussion about it
Popularity.
Also, I think some of the bad parts to ME3's ending are up for debate.
While DA2's faults are very glaring.
At least it has continuity, me3 had squad mates teleporting around and behaving wildly out of character. it's definitely a holding pattern for an expansion that never came.
DA2's ending was pretty terrible, but at least it didn't destroy the entire plot like ME3's. I mean, at the end of DA2 Blood Mages and oppressive Templars are still the bad guys and not the noble heroes who need to save everyone by constantly committing genocide. You know.
ME already pours over into other threads too much as is.
Because its not...?
The siding with the Templars ending is good in a everything went horribly wrong but at least makes sense kind of way.
The side with Mages ending makes no sense because executive meddling came to the DA2 team at the last minute and said "Since the Templar ending has two final bosses, the Mage ending must have two final bosses as well!" The DA2 team didn't have enough time to completely redo the end to fit in another boss, so they just enabled the Orsino fight.
Well, Bioware apologized for DA2's ending.
Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Wait, they did? I must have not noticed the option to download the extended edition :P
Thing about DA is that the ending was only bad from a mechanical point of view.
ME3's ending is mechanically sound for the most part, people mainly take issue with the direction it took.
That's pretty much the long and short of it.
When a mage goes all evil, you hunt them down and kill them. But locking them away before a crime is commited is not something I can condone or support. Why don't you lock up all the armies of Ferelden and Orlais and Tevinter and everything? Armies have the potential to ruin peoples lives too, and kill innocent people. What about the Quniari? They have things that can cause just as much devistation as mages, shouldn't they be locked up on sight since the potential is there? Hell, every man, woman, and child can pick up a knife and potentially kill their neighbor, better imprison them too.
Hell, real world example: look at cops and the thin blue line. A frequently antagonistic relationship dotted with abuses of authority.
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
Well. The thing about that is that armies can cause mass destruction but at the will of the people(or the people in power). It is for the most part a conscience choice.
A mage that becomes possessed doesn't really have control over their actions, which is shown many times. And having that much power with that little control just isn't good for anyone.
And I'm sorry, but a knife just isn't the same as the power to bend reality, it just isn't. Unless you're rolling Rogue.
Not sure what you mean.
Oh! Maybe this is the problem. Because I do
Because a soldier, with the exception of a few luminaries like Hawke, is limited.
Yes. In a berserk rage he could kill someone. Maybe ten people. Twenty. But then he dies on a pike, and the whole matter is resolved.
A single blood mage has the potential to take over a kingdom and make everyone in it into meat puppets. And mages are walking demon bait to boot.
It isn't like Warhammer 40K, where the man's response to "can be possessed by demons" is a fascist police state. Circle isn't nice, but it's the best option of a bad lot. There's improvements possible, obviously, and a system to give mages a little more slack once they've proven themselves reliable wouldn't be bad, but as things stand, mages need to be kept in line.
Why I fear the ocean.
He covered that though, not every mage is an abomination punishing all mages because what they might do or be made to do is ludicrous and would never last in any realistic society not because people are decent but because mage rebellions would be something you'd hear about every two months, it was frankly getting a bit hard to believe that so many mages were willing to be subjugated for so long.
I mean you're locking large groups of powerful people in claustrophobic situations, threatening to take away everything that makes them who they are at every moment of the day unless the templar in question was feeling generous in which case they'd just be killed (I can't be the only one who wanted to punch meridiths face in for keeping a tranquil aid can I?) all from childhood. It's a terrible system morally but it's also terrible mechanically, it was never going to last.
I never said that there wouldn't be problems.
Mainly what I've been saying is that there isn't an ideal solution.
Bioware never apologized for ME3's ending.
They just thought that the problem everyone had was that we didn't get a Fallout-style slideshow at the end telling us how all the decisions we made were good/bad.
Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
It's a stagnant and deeply flawed system that also happens to be morally bankrupt. There is middle ground to be had between eternal imprisonment and the fade and reality becoming one and existence being torment without end, I'm just suggesting that we try and find it.
Its not that all Mages have the potential to be an abomination that's the problem. Everyone has the potential to do bad. The problem is that if a mage goes bad, he/she/it will take out an entire city before anyone can respond. We saw that in Redcliff. A single rogue mage took out the entire town before the Templars even knew what was happening.
Beyond that, its not like it takes much for Mages to go demonic. All it takes is a single moment of weakness, and the demon can grab a hold of a person, twisting and turning them in an instant so that only a monster remains. And then a city goes bye-bye. Because of this, they have to be controlled.
I think a big issue is that people look at Mages like a person with a gun. Its not, since a person can control a gun. Its more like if a bunch of people caught the Ebola virus, but it then went into remission, still there, but not contagious or hurting anyone at the moment. But one wrong thing, one bad, stressful day could pull the trigger and an epidemic would be on hand.
There are only two real ways to resolve this.
The first is the ideal version of the current method used, all mages are isolated in an environment where they can be monitored for signs of demonic possession while being allowed to live their lives in peace. Locked up in a golden cage, for all intents and purposes. For all intents and purposes, the mages are put in quarantine, so that if things go bad the general populace is not hurt.
The second is to greatly expand the Templars so that there is a solid size force of Templars in every population center that can watch over Mages wherever they go and quickly respond if a mage goes bad. If things go bad in the case, there will still be people hurt, but it will be contained so that entire towns don't get wiped off the map.
The real issue is that we do not know whether its even possible for the Templars to grow in size to make Options 2 a reasonable solution. Remember that according to lore, Templars must take Lyrium to power their abilities to counter magic. Lyrium is treated as a controlled substance, having to be mined to be of use. This makes it a limited, hard to get resource. You also need enough volunteers to field such a force, which could be difficult.
(I kinda hope they don't even give an option to be a mage PC for DA3)
Its easy to say that there is a better situation but really outside of the Circle. You only really have Tevinter, the Qunari, and small mage groups who stay secluded and keep to themselves.
So, its easy to say the grass is greener on the other side when you really don't have anything to go by.
da2 ending spoilers
I agree, there should be a better way.
To blame the Templars is kind of unfair to the Templars though. It's true that they are oppressive dicks, but it's not 100% because they are oppressive dicks.
The only way for a Templar to control a mage is to nullify their magic, which requires them to use lyrium, which is highly addictive. It leads to dimensia too. But without it, the mages could revolt at will and there would be no check on the mages.
So, we have a group that's the militant arm of a religion, who controls the only substance that allows non-mages to control mages. The substance is highly addictive and leads to the breakdown of normal mental function that can manifest in psyhcosis -overagression, passiveness, memory loss, and a shit load of other mental issues-.
Or
The Tevinter Empire, which murdered and oppressed a bajillion of people.
Or
We follow the Qun, and rip out mages tongues and shackle them for life. Which I think is worse than the Chantry. At least the Chantry tries to give mages a life.
It would be nice to find a middle ground, but Thedas hasn't discovered one yet. I do know that trying to exterminate all mages is just stupid, since more will be born eventually. Still, mages need to be controlled and I've only seen two ways to do it: Rip out tongues and shackle the mages or give an army drugs that makes them crazy to controll them.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Yep. Even then, mages are constantly under threat of being taken over by demons.
Mages, by their very nature, are closer to the Fade than other humans/elves/whatever. So if they meet a demon in their dreams, they can be taken over. Not all abominations are volunteers, many are forced into becoming abominations.
So, no matter how friendly or peaceful your friend the mage is, one day, he might just randomly wake up and start murdering your whole town, except there are no templars there to put him down.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Tevinter killed hundreds of thousands of people there. So again, it's the fault of mages.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Unless the point is mages in power/given freedom is inherently worse then what the empire is doing.
Because otherwise the only difference seems to be that instead of nobility/clergy holding all the power mages also hold power. In fact we don't hear about mages from the tevinter going abom. We hear of plenty of them controlling demons...A solution does need to be found otherwise we're faced with a war between the chantry and the mages/there supporters on thedas, which will result in far more destruction then the immediate war it may also result in the fade and reality being interchangeable in most places. And that solution will probably need to have learned a few things from an empire run by mages that has very little to no mention of abominations running amock.
This is of course assuming the next game doesn't do a "...And here's where you come in 300 years after one side won"
The Chantry there is a puppet. They are called the Black Divine for a reason. The magisters are fully in power in Tevinter and they are slowly slipping back towards the old ways.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
ME3's original ending was much worse than DA2's. DA2's ending had some plot holes and encounter goofiness. ME3's ending pretty much shat on the entire spirit of the Mass Effect series.
The problem with the Circle/enslavement option is that it only accounts for the threat that mages pose without allowing for their benefits as well. I'm not saying mages should necessarily be allowed to run loose, but having mages live less restrictive lives would be a much better solution than the Circle:
-Mages would be available to detect, prevent, and combat Blood Magic and Abominations, when they arose.
-Mages would be available to society at large to perform magic for the public good.
-Mages would be better integrated into society and less likely to resort Blood Magic. Prisons make better criminals. The Circle makes more dangerous Blood Mages.
Uh, Tevinter never stopped the old ways. All that changed for them is how much of Thedas they have control over.
So basically, turn mages into the X-men?
X-Men with government oversight. I am anti-Free-All-Mages, but I am Pro-Extend-Mages-Rights.
I'm going to seriously reduce my nerd cred by admitting I know little of the X-Men.
I was thinking that Mages should be handled like the Templars, actually. A few assigned to every local Chantry to help find/suppress apostates while also performing good deeds for the townfolk. That'd let the world benefit from their powers while also keeping them in close proximity to Templars, should they go rogue. In essence, the Chantry would be saying, "if you're born to magic, then you have to undertake mandatory holy orders. This will keep you from damnation and give you an outlet to use your gifts for the greater good." It's not the same as total freedom, but it's much less of a raw deal for both mages and society as a whole.
3DS: 1607-3034-6970