If most mages were like Wynne or Bethany that would be fine. But most mages are more like Merrill or Morrigan or Jowan or any number of the bad corrupted mages you meet in both games.
The... uh... historian in me wants to note that there'd probably be a benefit to having the mages police themselves even, with oversight. Co-opting part of a populace into subjugating themselves is actually a rather effective strategy, since it sows division among what would otherwise be a collective resistance. Fear of collaborators will also often cause a resistance movement to become overly paranoid and zealous towards their own people, costing them support.
You don't actually need most mages to be decent. Issue enough legitimate threats, but then withdraw the templar to oversight, and get the ... aequitarians and loyalists? to oversee the others by promoting them to relative positions of authority. Have them do their own executions and harrowings and tranquilizations and such, probably retain the templar for hunts - since demons and blood mages are still awfully persuasive - and you fracture the mages' collectivism and turn their anger towards each other rather than the Chantry (to an extent).
They give more autonomy and rights to mages than any other culture we've seen save for Tevinter and don't seem to have the same level of abomination issues as the others.
Even the 'worst' and most out of control Daelish mages we encounter, Merrill and Tuvok the Werewolf maker, go nowhere near what we see circle-mages or Tevinter mages do when they go out of control. They're still in control of their faculties and are, at the least, trying to make things better for people who aren't themselves.
No possession and no indiscriminate murder at the very least. The werewolf thing was horrible, but also ultimately reversable which is a hell of a lot more than you can say for Conner's murders etc.
"How do you do that? How do you make everything better with a smile and a joke? It's like magic you don't get in trouble for!" -Merrill
"You're worried about me? If it weren't for Bartrand, Bethany would still be here!" -Varric
I tried to make her laugh as she was dying. She laughed, but I don't think it was in her. That's how I've addressed these problems up to now: snidery, snark, a sharp tongue and an unwillingness to invest myself in anything. How could I be touched, if I allowed myself to touch nothing? Glimmers of meaning shone through, to be sure: love for my mother, the flash of language in a mage whose mouth was stitched shut, real laughter at my sister being teased... but it's been from behind the veil of laughter, the mask of a smile.
She laughed for me as she was dying. And I held her, my sister, and I
I
I am why she died, in a sense, but Bartrand killed her. I laughed with Bartrand, treated him with the same disdain I treated everything. Would it have gone differently if I had been earnest? I do not think so. But I cannot help wonder.
I am going to find him now, and I am no longer smiling. The last thing I remember is her smile framed by the purple-webbed flesh of her cheeks, the light in her eyes frosted by milky film as corruption ate at her. Ate at her, a thing inside of her pushing its way out, and she died and I couldn't help her, and now I am going to find him. His brother will come with me, and blood is on his mind, but blood and blood again is on mine, blood of my sister and blood of my heart and the roaring blood of quiet hatreds. I am coming for you, Bartrand. The last time I smiled at you until I could see you no more, and you thought nothing, and my blood's blood fell on the ground while you never saw.
See me now, Bartand. How fare you when smiles fade?
They give more autonomy and rights to mages than any other culture we've seen save for Tevinter and don't seem to have the same level of abomination issues as the others.
Even the 'worst' and most out of control Daelish mages we encounter, Merrill and Tuvok the Werewolf maker, go nowhere near what we see circle-mages or Tevinter mages do when they go out of control. They're still in control of their faculties and are, at the least, trying to make things better for people who aren't themselves.
No possession and no indiscriminate murder at the very least. The werewolf thing was horrible, but also ultimately reversable which is a hell of a lot more than you can say for Conner's murders etc.
Because you are wrong. Merrill flat out tells you that Daelish mages get possessed by demons, and when they do, the entire clan hunts them down and slaughters them. The reason humans don't know about it is because the Daelish stay far away from civilized areas and are constantly on the move. They kill their possessed mages before they reach human settlements.
In other words, they isolate their mages away from the common people, and if the mages get possessed, they are immediately killed. Just like the Chantry.
EDIT: All this talk about DA2 has made me replay the game while waiting for Bioshock Infinite, and I just had that conversation with Merrill 2 hours ago.
They give more autonomy and rights to mages than any other culture we've seen save for Tevinter and don't seem to have the same level of abomination issues as the others.
Even the 'worst' and most out of control Daelish mages we encounter, Merrill and Tuvok the Werewolf maker, go nowhere near what we see circle-mages or Tevinter mages do when they go out of control. They're still in control of their faculties and are, at the least, trying to make things better for people who aren't themselves.
No possession and no indiscriminate murder at the very least. The werewolf thing was horrible, but also ultimately reversable which is a hell of a lot more than you can say for Conner's murders etc.
Because you are wrong. Merrill flat out tells you that Daelish mages get possessed by demons, and when they do, the entire clan hunts them down and slaughters them. The reason humans don't know about it is because the Daelish stay far away from civilized areas and are constantly on the move. They kill their possessed mages before they reach human settlements.
In other words, they isolate their mages away from the common people, and if the mages get possessed, they are immediately killed. Just like the Chantry.
... Which still seems like a more sane and humane situation than locking hundreds of them together in a tower and letting dozens or hundreds die every time someone is possessed.
And I never said the Daelish didn't have issues or possessions, just that their solution was another that people seem to ignore in these discussions. And one that seems to have a much lower body count than the others even if it necessitates a small nomadic lifestyle.
Societies don't need to develop into city-states, and I think Kirkwall aptly shows how that can massively exacerbate the problem of mages.
They give more autonomy and rights to mages than any other culture we've seen save for Tevinter and don't seem to have the same level of abomination issues as the others.
Even the 'worst' and most out of control Daelish mages we encounter, Merrill and Tuvok the Werewolf maker, go nowhere near what we see circle-mages or Tevinter mages do when they go out of control. They're still in control of their faculties and are, at the least, trying to make things better for people who aren't themselves.
No possession and no indiscriminate murder at the very least. The werewolf thing was horrible, but also ultimately reversable which is a hell of a lot more than you can say for Conner's murders etc.
Because you are wrong. Merrill flat out tells you that Daelish mages get possessed by demons, and when they do, the entire clan hunts them down and slaughters them. The reason humans don't know about it is because the Daelish stay far away from civilized areas and are constantly on the move. They kill their possessed mages before they reach human settlements.
In other words, they isolate their mages away from the common people, and if the mages get possessed, they are immediately killed. Just like the Chantry.
... Which still seems like a more sane and humane situation than locking hundreds of them together in a tower and letting dozens or hundreds die every time someone is possessed.
And I never said the Daelish didn't have issues or possessions, just that their solution was another that people seem to ignore in these discussions. And one that seems to have a much lower body count than the others even if it necessitates a small nomadic lifestyle.
Societies don't need to develop into city-states, and I think Kirkwall aptly shows how that can massively exacerbate the problem of mages.
Except the Daelish have a lot less mages to deal with. You also need to remember that all mages for Daelish are either the Lore Keeper or the Apprentice of the Lore Keeper. That means you have a total of 2 mages for every Daelish clan. If you put them all together, you'd probably only have the numbers for maybe two Circles. 50 or 60 mages is a lot easier to keep track of then hundreds of mages.
They give more autonomy and rights to mages than any other culture we've seen save for Tevinter and don't seem to have the same level of abomination issues as the others.
Even the 'worst' and most out of control Daelish mages we encounter, Merrill and Tuvok the Werewolf maker, go nowhere near what we see circle-mages or Tevinter mages do when they go out of control. They're still in control of their faculties and are, at the least, trying to make things better for people who aren't themselves.
No possession and no indiscriminate murder at the very least. The werewolf thing was horrible, but also ultimately reversable which is a hell of a lot more than you can say for Conner's murders etc.
Because you are wrong. Merrill flat out tells you that Daelish mages get possessed by demons, and when they do, the entire clan hunts them down and slaughters them. The reason humans don't know about it is because the Daelish stay far away from civilized areas and are constantly on the move. They kill their possessed mages before they reach human settlements.
In other words, they isolate their mages away from the common people, and if the mages get possessed, they are immediately killed. Just like the Chantry.
... Which still seems like a more sane and humane situation than locking hundreds of them together in a tower and letting dozens or hundreds die every time someone is possessed.
And I never said the Daelish didn't have issues or possessions, just that their solution was another that people seem to ignore in these discussions. And one that seems to have a much lower body count than the others even if it necessitates a small nomadic lifestyle.
Societies don't need to develop into city-states, and I think Kirkwall aptly shows how that can massively exacerbate the problem of mages.
Except the Daelish have a lot less mages to deal with. You also need to remember that all mages for Daelish are either the Lore Keeper or the Apprentice of the Lore Keeper. That means you have a total of 2 mages for every Daelish clan. If you put them all together, you'd probably only have the numbers for maybe two Circles. 50 or 60 mages is a lot easier to keep track of then hundreds of mages.
...Yes, that is exactly my point. Concentration of mages or population is a bad idea, so why not decentralize as much as possible? Its more humane and sane than most of the other options on the table, and has been working for a long time.
They should be aping that model. Should be pretty easy too after
All the Templars and Mages kill off the population that isn't killed off by invading Qunari or Tevinter people.
Tevinter is starting up their blood rituals again.
The Chantry there is a puppet. They are called the Black Divine for a reason. The magisters are fully in power in Tevinter and they are slowly slipping back towards the old ways.
Uh, Tevinter never stopped the old ways. All that changed for them is how much of Thedas they have control over.
Naw, Tevinter was good for a little while, but the magisters have gained power again. They placed a mage as the head of their chantry.
There are those who would tell you that the Chantry is the same everywhere as it is here, that the Divine in Val Royeaux reigns supreme in the eyes of the Maker and that this fact is unquestioned throughout Thedas.
Do not believe it.
The Maker's second commandment, "Magic must serve man, not rule over him," never held the same meaning within the ancient Tevinter Imperium as it did elsewhere. The Chantry there interpreted the rule as meaning that mages should never control the minds of other men, and that otherwise their magic should benefit the rulers of men as much as possible. When the clerics of Tevinter altered the Chant of Light to reflect this interpretation of the commandment, the Divine in Val Royeaux ordered the clerics to revert to the original Chant. They refused, claiming corruption within Val Royeaux, an argument that grew until, in 3:87 Towers, the Chantry in Tevinter elected its own "legitimate and uncorrupted" Divine Valhail-who was not only male, but also happened to be one of the most prominent members of the Tevinter Circle of the Magi. This "Black Divine" was reviled outside Tevinter, his existence an offense to the Chantry in Val Royeaux.
After four Exalted Marches to dislodge these "rebels," all that the Chantry in Val Royeaux accomplished was to cement the separation. While most aspects of the Imperial Chantry's teachings are the same, prohibitions against magic have been weakened, and male priests have become more prevalent. The Circle of the Magi today rules Tevinter directly, ever since the Archon Nomaran was elected in 7:34 Storm directly from the ranks of the enchanters, to great applause from the public. He dispensed with the old rules forbidding mages from taking part in politics, and within a century, the true rulers within the various imperial houses-the mages-took their places openly within the government. The Imperial Divine is now always drawn from the ranks of the first enchanters and operates as Divine and Grand Enchanter both.
This is utter heresy to any member of the Chantry outside of Tevinter, a return to the days of the magisters, which brought the Blights down upon us. But it exists, and even though we have left the Tevinter Imperium to the mercies of the dread Qunari, still they have endured. Further confrontation between the Black Divine and our so-called "White Divine" is inevitable.
--From Edicts of the Black Divine, by Father David of Qarinus, 8:11 Blessed
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Tevinter is starting up their blood rituals again.
The Chantry there is a puppet. They are called the Black Divine for a reason. The magisters are fully in power in Tevinter and they are slowly slipping back towards the old ways.
Uh, Tevinter never stopped the old ways. All that changed for them is how much of Thedas they have control over.
Naw, Tevinter was good for a little while, but the magisters have gained power again. They placed a mage as the head of their chantry.
There are those who would tell you that the Chantry is the same everywhere as it is here, that the Divine in Val Royeaux reigns supreme in the eyes of the Maker and that this fact is unquestioned throughout Thedas.
Do not believe it.
The Maker's second commandment, "Magic must serve man, not rule over him," never held the same meaning within the ancient Tevinter Imperium as it did elsewhere. The Chantry there interpreted the rule as meaning that mages should never control the minds of other men, and that otherwise their magic should benefit the rulers of men as much as possible. When the clerics of Tevinter altered the Chant of Light to reflect this interpretation of the commandment, the Divine in Val Royeaux ordered the clerics to revert to the original Chant. They refused, claiming corruption within Val Royeaux, an argument that grew until, in 3:87 Towers, the Chantry in Tevinter elected its own "legitimate and uncorrupted" Divine Valhail-who was not only male, but also happened to be one of the most prominent members of the Tevinter Circle of the Magi. This "Black Divine" was reviled outside Tevinter, his existence an offense to the Chantry in Val Royeaux.
After four Exalted Marches to dislodge these "rebels," all that the Chantry in Val Royeaux accomplished was to cement the separation. While most aspects of the Imperial Chantry's teachings are the same, prohibitions against magic have been weakened, and male priests have become more prevalent. The Circle of the Magi today rules Tevinter directly, ever since the Archon Nomaran was elected in 7:34 Storm directly from the ranks of the enchanters, to great applause from the public. He dispensed with the old rules forbidding mages from taking part in politics, and within a century, the true rulers within the various imperial houses-the mages-took their places openly within the government. The Imperial Divine is now always drawn from the ranks of the first enchanters and operates as Divine and Grand Enchanter both.
This is utter heresy to any member of the Chantry outside of Tevinter, a return to the days of the magisters, which brought the Blights down upon us. But it exists, and even though we have left the Tevinter Imperium to the mercies of the dread Qunari, still they have endured. Further confrontation between the Black Divine and our so-called "White Divine" is inevitable.
--From Edicts of the Black Divine, by Father David of Qarinus, 8:11 Blessed
DarcsteelWildcardNC United StatesRegistered Userregular
well you have the 1 dalish kid that was a dream walker or something like that. He shows that he is willing to fight the demons for control of his own mind
The best solution I've been able to come up for mages, is to do a variation on the circle system.
At a young age, children found to be gifted would still be found and taken to the circle for training in their gifts, but they would be allowed correspondence with their family via letters and such. If it was found that they could control their powers, it would be possible for them to make excursions from the circle, but they would be accompanied by a retinue of Templars who would ensure both that the mage was protected while abroad and would ensure that the mage didn't get into trouble. Those who were found to be trul trustworthy would be allowed to form new circles, but they would still need to have Templars there to ensure they were protected and kept honest.
Is this great for mages? not really. Should they be allowed to live their lives as they please? Hell no. They have too much power at their finger tips to be trusted to their own devices.
+1
ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
Look, given how magic in DA works, it's basically the Force if the dark side had fully-sentient spirit agents. (Which it does, at least in the EU.)
Treat mages like Jedi.
0
chiasaur11Never doubt a raccoon.Do you think it's trademarked?Registered Userregular
DarcsteelWildcardNC United StatesRegistered Userregular
The circle should be a training ground, not a prison. Being in the circle should make one feel like part of a community and instill a sense of responsibility equal to te power you are entrusted with. Keep the harrowing as it is important for mages to know the enemy they will face due to their power, but change the Templars from mage hunters to a response unit. Have circle mages be part of that response unit. integrate the circle and the templars so they are seen as a single unit as opposed to watchful guards waiting to take the heads of their charges. The situation is essentialy the same as it is now but change your presentation.
Yeah the Jedi system is garbage and would not work in the least here. Let them from connections to family and community. let them keep contact. let them remember that there are people who care for them cause that's whats going to save them when they have to fight off a demon in a battle of will
0
ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
Look, given how magic in DA works, it's basically the Force if the dark side had fully-sentient spirit agents. (Which it does, at least in the EU.)
Treat mages like Jedi.
But the Jedi are PERPETUAL FUCKUPS and every Jedi system has ENDED IN DISASTER.
Still a better track record than the Circle/the Chantry!
Once demons take over the galaxy, then you might have a point.
Until then, the Jedi are still winning the race to the bottom.
The Jedi have, over the course of a thousand generations, dealt with the Sith or Dark Jedi fucking things up for everyone about once or twice every thousand years, and they didn't need Grey Wardens or Templars or Champions of Nar Shaddaa to fix things for them, they did it themselves. Hell, they were exterminated at the end of the Clone Wars down to a total of two however many the EU says, like twenty or something, and they were up and functioning as an organization within fifty years.
Over less than a thousand years, at least nineteen Circles have "had to be" purged with the Right of Annulment, and that's before
the end of Dragon Age 2 where you learn that things are going to get worse.
Admittedly, it's a silly comparsion, like comparing, well, lightsabers and broadswords. The galaxy far far away, even at its darkest, is far more idealistic with clear lines between right and wrong than Thedas.
It has been like 40 posts since the last one I was able to read
You will all feel my vengeance one day
Just think about that glorious day when you get the click all the spoilers.
With my luck you guys have been comparing the ME3 and DA2 endings the whole time
DA2's ending is so much worse than ME3's, don't know why only the later got any discussion about it
Well for me, DA2's ending was absolute shit but the rest of the game didn't build me up to any great expectation as to its quality and so I focused more of my complaints on everything else it did wrong.
ME3 did give me great expectations because, god damn that game was great and actually all three ME games were fantastic. So that last 15 minutes or so in ME3 really stands out as especially bad. My expecations for ME3 were much higher and the statements about what the ending would be like had me expecting a lot more. With DA2 it's kind of middle game in a franchise and so its ending kind of doesn't matter anyway as there is always time to retcon it out of existence anyway. In saying that, from what I have heard I have much higher expectations for DA3 than I ever did of DA2 and I am really hoping we hear more of DA3 soon.
Especially if it's running on that Frostbite engine they showed for Battlefield 4. Holy shit that is some sweet as hell technology.
DarcsteelWildcardNC United StatesRegistered Userregular
I never looked at DA2 as part of a series. It really only works for me if I view it as a standalone game. Thinking of it in that manner makes the ending a lot more bareable
And I always turn it off right when Leilana shows up
0
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
I never looked at DA2 as part of a series. It really only works for me if I view it as a standalone game. Thinking of it in that manner makes the ending a lot more bareable
And I always turn it off right when Leilana shows up
It's a terrible ending no matter if it is a stand alone game or otherwise. It's just not offensive because you know they get another go at it and it isn't the conclusion of a major storyline spanning multiple games. So it escapes the criticism that ME3 got for these reasons, but not because of the fact it's actually not utterly terrible. It's not like you go through an amazingly well written piece of storytelling and gameplay like ME3 only to be crapped on by a horrible ending out of nowhere. All of Act 3 in DA2 is terrible and perfectly lowers ones expectations for the incredibly unsatisfying awful ending to follow.
DarcsteelWildcardNC United StatesRegistered Userregular
yeah act 3 was kinda garbage. Honestly I would have been happier with a transition to some type of borderlands style sandboxing after Act 2 (the games true resolution as far as i was concerned
With them not giving us the giant hands from the trailer I waould have been really pissed off if I couldnt go toe to toe with a pissed off horned giant carrying two blades as big as I was just to show I am a badass. Yeah the fight was difficult (first time was a mage so holy hell) but that could have been the end of the game for me and I would have been happy (to be the new viscount)
0
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
So I had a bit spoiled for me in the next Act (Sibling stuff), and between that and Bioshock Infinite, my motivation to keep playing has kinda dropped. Because I am not really using her, but there is already no chance in hells I'm letting her join up with those people.
So I had a bit spoiled for me in the next Act (Sibling stuff), and between that and Bioshock Infinite, my motivation to keep playing has kinda dropped. Because I am not really using her, but there is already no chance in hells I'm letting her join up with those people.
There's multiple solutions to the Bethany situation. She doesn't have to join up with anyone. See spoilers for details.
If you leave her, she joins the Chantry.
If you take her with you, she dies.
If you take her AND ANDERS with you, you can get her to join the Grey Wardens.
yeah act 3 was kinda garbage. Honestly I would have been happier with a transition to some type of borderlands style sandboxing after Act 2 (the games true resolution as far as i was concerned
With them not giving us the giant hands from the trailer I waould have been really pissed off if I couldnt go toe to toe with a pissed off horned giant carrying two blades as big as I was just to show I am a badass. Yeah the fight was difficult (first time was a mage so holy hell) but that could have been the end of the game for me and I would have been happy (to be the new viscount)
Agreed. Act 2 was really the climax of the game, for me. Actually, the last battle is super anti-climactic, because it's so stupid easy.
I always beat it before Meredith finishes her speechifying. Even on my first playthrough, I only get to hear her twice. Also, I just happened to have some immunity to stun items on, so just kept whacking her while she was talking too....
As for ME3, I can see how expectations play into it. I only beat ME3 recently, with the Extended Cut DLC, and I didn't really find the ending very objectionable at all; perhaps that's because I had my expectations so dramatically lowered by all the hullabaloo at release. It just kinda seemed like your standard cRPG ending? Your hero goes and dies or disappears or ascends or whatnot, and then you just get some still shots and some voiceover that vaguely hints at what happens after? Not that I don't get the complaints, but I've never really "gotten" what people actually expected it to be like.
It's a pretty awesome setup of escalation and scaling madness on both sides that Hawke simply can't control.
Hawke won't leave. There are SO many moments in Act 1, 2, and 3 where Hawke states that s/he's done running. Friends, money, power, respect. Why leave that all behind? And thanks to the framing narrative, it's clear that Hawke DID make a choice and WAS involved in the final confrontations.
Meredith won't quit. She's power hungry, paranoid, and fuelled by a decade of being proven that she's right and mages are dangerous thanks to Kirkwall.
Orsino won't quit. The mages have been getting more oppressed every year, and with the Viscount gone, he has to keep Meredith from gaining complete control.
Anders won't quit. He's literally an abomination of Vengeance, which he clearly spells out when you first meet him in Act 1. Enough said.
Everything that happens in Act 3 between Orsino and Meredith requires the power vacuum from the events of Act 2. The main actors have had their shadows cast across the entire game. Literally every theme of the game boils down to the fact that Hawke isn't a protagonist on Shepard's level, and can't make everyone happy just by talking loudly.
So, @Aegeri what, exactly, do you want them to retcon? Because as far as I can tell, the plot was exactly the story they wanted, and it's a damn good one. Hell, at least the themes of the game stay consistent and focused instead of being utterly at odds with what the game wants.
Really, what in DA2 was as awful as the following?
The Reapers attack Earth first instead of the centre of galactic civilization that they attacked first in literally every other cycle after the first.
The Reapers MAGICALLY relocate the Citadel to Earth for the final battle and kill everyone on it.
The theme of the game being defined as Synthetics vs. Organics when a conflict between Synthetics vs. Organics is resolved 100% positively for both sides earlier in the game.
Kai Leng. Period.
Shepard's complete lack of agency in resolving the Crucible ending
Well, the whole ending. Dear god that's a mess of shitting on the entire game.
The fact that a Turian General and a Quarian Admiral completely abandon their duties to go hang out with the Protagonist in the middle of a war where their skills could actually be very important.
Completely changing the personality and actions of Cerberus and TIM for the shittiest reasons and presenting them incredibly inconsistently in the third game as opposed to the second game as opposed to the first game.
Mass Effect 3 has some brilliant character bits, yeah. Duh. The actual plot is shit and written shittily and resolved shittily. It's a mess of really incongruent themes and stories that honestly shouldn't even be in there but someone decided that Shepard had to resolve every major galactic conflict before defeating the Reapers.
Seriously, it makes no sense from Point 1 when the Reapers attack Earth instead of the Citadel and then the game continues to bang on about the cycle and how EVERYTHING is ALWAYS the SAME every CYCLE.
The Reapers lose all personality instead of the pretty great writing they had in 1 and 2 with Sov and Harb, and Cerberus gets completely bent all over the place in weird and stupid fashion.
DA2 takes the time to give each and every character that takes a major plot action a pretty goddamn clear motivation as to why they're doing what they're doing, foreshadows the major conflicts right from the start, and develops a set of six very compelling companions that all have lives independent from the protagonist. Act 3 is the culmination of a lot of things that the game built up, and while it doesn't deliver perfectly, thanks to forcing a boss fight in on one path that REALLY didn't need it, the entire game tells the story of someone who was at the centre of events but was never in control of them. The Blight, Flemeth, the Lost Thaig, the Arishok, the Gallows confrontation... Hawke was a reactionary protagonist from the start to the finish.
So god dammit guys, stop ragging on DA2's story because it's really good. There's definitely gameplay complaints to be made, and it sure as hell ain't perfect, but the writing and plot and themes and Act 3 aren't nearly as bad as you for some crazy reason think they are.
+3
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited March 2013
Rainfall, I will have more to say (posting by cell phone) but your first point about Hawk is actually really bad and the game contradicts you. You can't make that argument and justify the terrible ending at the same time. Think about the ending and what happens and your first argument cannot possibly make sense.
And no DA2 in no way has a good plot. The fact everyone at the end carries an enormous idiot ball is proof of that.
It's a pretty awesome setup of escalation and scaling madness on both sides that Hawke simply can't control.
Hawke won't leave. There are SO many moments in Act 1, 2, and 3 where Hawke states that s/he's done running. Friends, money, power, respect. Why leave that all behind? And thanks to the framing narrative, it's clear that Hawke DID make a choice and WAS involved in the final confrontations.
Meredith won't quit. She's power hungry, paranoid, and fuelled by a decade of being proven that she's right and mages are dangerous thanks to Kirkwall.
Orsino won't quit. The mages have been getting more oppressed every year, and with the Viscount gone, he has to keep Meredith from gaining complete control.
Anders won't quit. He's literally an abomination of Vengeance, which he clearly spells out when you first meet him in Act 1. Enough said.
Everything that happens in Act 3 between Orsino and Meredith requires the power vacuum from the events of Act 2. The main actors have had their shadows cast across the entire game. Literally every theme of the game boils down to the fact that Hawke isn't a protagonist on Shepard's level, and can't make everyone happy just by talking loudly.
So, @Aegeri what, exactly, do you want them to retcon? Because as far as I can tell, the plot was exactly the story they wanted, and it's a damn good one. Hell, at least the themes of the game stay consistent and focused instead of being utterly at odds with what the game wants.
Really, what in DA2 was as awful as the following?
The Reapers attack Earth first instead of the centre of galactic civilization that they attacked first in literally every other cycle after the first.
Shepard is human. A human has been directly responsible for fucking up all of their standard avenues of attack, so new attack procedure is needed. First remove the threat posed by the race that has blocked you so many times already (human). Next strike down the largest standing military force known (turian). Next ensure that massed assault forces cannot be gathered from high birth races (stopping genophage cure). Seems a pretty sensible atttack plan
The Reapers MAGICALLY relocate the Citadel to Earth for the final battle and kill everyone on it.
I can agree with this one but we dont know the state of everyone on board the citadel. I think thats one of their leaving for speculation moments
The theme of the game being defined as Synthetics vs. Organics when a conflict between Synthetics vs. Organics is resolved 100% positively for both sides earlier in the game.
Agreed but then again they did say that Star Child was flawed and failing in his mission.
Kai Leng. Period.
Plot Armor. Every Asshat that should have died earlier in every game that exists
Shepard's complete lack of agency in resolving the Crucible ending
Star Child...About the same as Anders blasting the hell out the Chantry even if you dont help him or nearly reslove the issues between mages and templar
Well, the whole ending. Dear god that's a mess of shitting on the entire game.
let it go. just be happy with extended cut and citadel
The fact that a Turian General and a Quarian Admiral completely abandon their duties to go hang out with the Protagonist in the middle of a war where their skills could actually be very important.
Garrus is NOT a general He's an advisor and you are hooked into every military force in the galaxy. with you he can advise from a frontline position. Tali had the position for her knowledge of the Geth and to aid in THAT war. once resloved no longer needed
Completely changing the personality and actions of Cerberus and TIM for the shittiest reasons and presenting them incredibly inconsistently in the third game as opposed to the second game as opposed to the first game.
indoctrinated from the remenants of the reaper tech. Tim has most likley been fighting indoctrination for a long time and just put too much near himself.
Mass Effect 3 has some brilliant character bits, yeah. Duh. The actual plot is shit and written shittily and resolved shittily. It's a mess of really incongruent themes and stories that honestly shouldn't even be in there but someone decided that Shepard had to resolve every major galactic conflict before defeating the Reapers.
he resolved every confilct cause its a massive space opera spanning 3 games, multiple media, and several years. It's meant to be a big end to a lot of stories
Seriously, it makes no sense from Point 1 when the Reapers attack Earth instead of the Citadel and then the game continues to bang on about the cycle and how EVERYTHING is ALWAYS the SAME every CYCLE.
adjusted tactics
The Reapers lose all personality instead of the pretty great writing they had in 1 and 2 with Sov and Harb, and Cerberus gets completely bent all over the place in weird and stupid fashion.
DA2 takes the time to give each and every character that takes a major plot action a pretty goddamn clear motivation as to why they're doing what they're doing, foreshadows the major conflicts right from the start, and develops a set of six very compelling companions that all have lives independent from the protagonist. Act 3 is the culmination of a lot of things that the game built up, and while it doesn't deliver perfectly, thanks to forcing a boss fight in on one path that REALLY didn't need it, the entire game tells the story of someone who was at the centre of events but was never in control of them. The Blight, Flemeth, the Lost Thaig, the Arishok, the Gallows confrontation... Hawke was a reactionary protagonist from the start to the finish.
So god dammit guys, stop ragging on DA2's story because it's really good. There's definitely gameplay complaints to be made, and it sure as hell ain't perfect, but the writing and plot and themes and Act 3 aren't nearly as bad as you for some crazy reason think they are.
actually just go with the Qun. as much as people dont like the qunari you dont hear anything about qunari abominations running all over the place
Because their mages' lips are sewn shut and their tongues get cut out on the first offense.
The first offense is being a mage in the first place. All qunari mages have tongues removed and mouths sewn shut. They all also have a set of guards who's purpose is to kill the mage if the mage casts a spell without orders.
Posts
The... uh... historian in me wants to note that there'd probably be a benefit to having the mages police themselves even, with oversight. Co-opting part of a populace into subjugating themselves is actually a rather effective strategy, since it sows division among what would otherwise be a collective resistance. Fear of collaborators will also often cause a resistance movement to become overly paranoid and zealous towards their own people, costing them support.
You don't actually need most mages to be decent. Issue enough legitimate threats, but then withdraw the templar to oversight, and get the ... aequitarians and loyalists? to oversee the others by promoting them to relative positions of authority. Have them do their own executions and harrowings and tranquilizations and such, probably retain the templar for hunts - since demons and blood mages are still awfully persuasive - and you fracture the mages' collectivism and turn their anger towards each other rather than the Chantry (to an extent).
They give more autonomy and rights to mages than any other culture we've seen save for Tevinter and don't seem to have the same level of abomination issues as the others.
Even the 'worst' and most out of control Daelish mages we encounter, Merrill and Tuvok the Werewolf maker, go nowhere near what we see circle-mages or Tevinter mages do when they go out of control. They're still in control of their faculties and are, at the least, trying to make things better for people who aren't themselves.
No possession and no indiscriminate murder at the very least. The werewolf thing was horrible, but also ultimately reversable which is a hell of a lot more than you can say for Conner's murders etc.
"You're worried about me? If it weren't for Bartrand, Bethany would still be here!" -Varric
I tried to make her laugh as she was dying. She laughed, but I don't think it was in her. That's how I've addressed these problems up to now: snidery, snark, a sharp tongue and an unwillingness to invest myself in anything. How could I be touched, if I allowed myself to touch nothing? Glimmers of meaning shone through, to be sure: love for my mother, the flash of language in a mage whose mouth was stitched shut, real laughter at my sister being teased... but it's been from behind the veil of laughter, the mask of a smile.
She laughed for me as she was dying. And I held her, my sister, and I
I
I am why she died, in a sense, but Bartrand killed her. I laughed with Bartrand, treated him with the same disdain I treated everything. Would it have gone differently if I had been earnest? I do not think so. But I cannot help wonder.
I am going to find him now, and I am no longer smiling. The last thing I remember is her smile framed by the purple-webbed flesh of her cheeks, the light in her eyes frosted by milky film as corruption ate at her. Ate at her, a thing inside of her pushing its way out, and she died and I couldn't help her, and now I am going to find him. His brother will come with me, and blood is on his mind, but blood and blood again is on mine, blood of my sister and blood of my heart and the roaring blood of quiet hatreds. I am coming for you, Bartrand. The last time I smiled at you until I could see you no more, and you thought nothing, and my blood's blood fell on the ground while you never saw.
See me now, Bartand. How fare you when smiles fade?
How fare you when laughter dies?
Because you are wrong. Merrill flat out tells you that Daelish mages get possessed by demons, and when they do, the entire clan hunts them down and slaughters them. The reason humans don't know about it is because the Daelish stay far away from civilized areas and are constantly on the move. They kill their possessed mages before they reach human settlements.
In other words, they isolate their mages away from the common people, and if the mages get possessed, they are immediately killed. Just like the Chantry.
EDIT: All this talk about DA2 has made me replay the game while waiting for Bioshock Infinite, and I just had that conversation with Merrill 2 hours ago.
... Which still seems like a more sane and humane situation than locking hundreds of them together in a tower and letting dozens or hundreds die every time someone is possessed.
And I never said the Daelish didn't have issues or possessions, just that their solution was another that people seem to ignore in these discussions. And one that seems to have a much lower body count than the others even if it necessitates a small nomadic lifestyle.
Societies don't need to develop into city-states, and I think Kirkwall aptly shows how that can massively exacerbate the problem of mages.
Except the Daelish have a lot less mages to deal with. You also need to remember that all mages for Daelish are either the Lore Keeper or the Apprentice of the Lore Keeper. That means you have a total of 2 mages for every Daelish clan. If you put them all together, you'd probably only have the numbers for maybe two Circles. 50 or 60 mages is a lot easier to keep track of then hundreds of mages.
...Yes, that is exactly my point. Concentration of mages or population is a bad idea, so why not decentralize as much as possible? Its more humane and sane than most of the other options on the table, and has been working for a long time.
They should be aping that model. Should be pretty easy too after
Naw, Tevinter was good for a little while, but the magisters have gained power again. They placed a mage as the head of their chantry.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Death to magic. Death to the empire.
I personally have no sympathy for anyone that stupid.
Mages in Kirkwall are like the 3 stooges.
They're all either stupid (Larry, Meril), stupid and assholes (Moe, Anders), or very, very stupid indeed (Curly, that guy).
Why I fear the ocean.
At a young age, children found to be gifted would still be found and taken to the circle for training in their gifts, but they would be allowed correspondence with their family via letters and such. If it was found that they could control their powers, it would be possible for them to make excursions from the circle, but they would be accompanied by a retinue of Templars who would ensure both that the mage was protected while abroad and would ensure that the mage didn't get into trouble. Those who were found to be trul trustworthy would be allowed to form new circles, but they would still need to have Templars there to ensure they were protected and kept honest.
Is this great for mages? not really. Should they be allowed to live their lives as they please? Hell no. They have too much power at their finger tips to be trusted to their own devices.
Treat mages like Jedi.
But the Jedi are PERPETUAL FUCKUPS and every Jedi system has ENDED IN DISASTER.
Why I fear the ocean.
^this
Still a better track record than the Circle/the Chantry!
Once demons take over the galaxy, then you might have a point.
Until then, the Jedi are still winning the race to the bottom.
Why I fear the ocean.
Yeah the Jedi system is garbage and would not work in the least here. Let them from connections to family and community. let them keep contact. let them remember that there are people who care for them cause that's whats going to save them when they have to fight off a demon in a battle of will
The Jedi have, over the course of a thousand generations, dealt with the Sith or Dark Jedi fucking things up for everyone about once or twice every thousand years, and they didn't need Grey Wardens or Templars or Champions of Nar Shaddaa to fix things for them, they did it themselves. Hell, they were exterminated at the end of the Clone Wars down to a total of two however many the EU says, like twenty or something, and they were up and functioning as an organization within fifty years.
Over less than a thousand years, at least nineteen Circles have "had to be" purged with the Right of Annulment, and that's before
Admittedly, it's a silly comparsion, like comparing, well, lightsabers and broadswords. The galaxy far far away, even at its darkest, is far more idealistic with clear lines between right and wrong than Thedas.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
So stupid.
Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side.
Why I fear the ocean.
No blasters in Thedas.
QED.
(What I just ED'd I dunno.)
Oh. A weapon for a more civilized time, eh? Well guess what - times have changed.
Why I fear the ocean.
Because their mages' lips are sewn shut and their tongues get cut out on the first offense.
Well for me, DA2's ending was absolute shit but the rest of the game didn't build me up to any great expectation as to its quality and so I focused more of my complaints on everything else it did wrong.
ME3 did give me great expectations because, god damn that game was great and actually all three ME games were fantastic. So that last 15 minutes or so in ME3 really stands out as especially bad. My expecations for ME3 were much higher and the statements about what the ending would be like had me expecting a lot more. With DA2 it's kind of middle game in a franchise and so its ending kind of doesn't matter anyway as there is always time to retcon it out of existence anyway. In saying that, from what I have heard I have much higher expectations for DA3 than I ever did of DA2 and I am really hoping we hear more of DA3 soon.
Especially if it's running on that Frostbite engine they showed for Battlefield 4. Holy shit that is some sweet as hell technology.
It's a terrible ending no matter if it is a stand alone game or otherwise. It's just not offensive because you know they get another go at it and it isn't the conclusion of a major storyline spanning multiple games. So it escapes the criticism that ME3 got for these reasons, but not because of the fact it's actually not utterly terrible. It's not like you go through an amazingly well written piece of storytelling and gameplay like ME3 only to be crapped on by a horrible ending out of nowhere. All of Act 3 in DA2 is terrible and perfectly lowers ones expectations for the incredibly unsatisfying awful ending to follow.
It's almost deliberate!
There's multiple solutions to the Bethany situation. She doesn't have to join up with anyone. See spoilers for details.
If you take her with you, she dies.
If you take her AND ANDERS with you, you can get her to join the Grey Wardens.
Agreed. Act 2 was really the climax of the game, for me. Actually, the last battle is super anti-climactic, because it's so stupid easy.
As for ME3, I can see how expectations play into it. I only beat ME3 recently, with the Extended Cut DLC, and I didn't really find the ending very objectionable at all; perhaps that's because I had my expectations so dramatically lowered by all the hullabaloo at release. It just kinda seemed like your standard cRPG ending? Your hero goes and dies or disappears or ascends or whatnot, and then you just get some still shots and some voiceover that vaguely hints at what happens after? Not that I don't get the complaints, but I've never really "gotten" what people actually expected it to be like.
It's a pretty awesome setup of escalation and scaling madness on both sides that Hawke simply can't control.
Meredith won't quit. She's power hungry, paranoid, and fuelled by a decade of being proven that she's right and mages are dangerous thanks to Kirkwall.
Orsino won't quit. The mages have been getting more oppressed every year, and with the Viscount gone, he has to keep Meredith from gaining complete control.
Anders won't quit. He's literally an abomination of Vengeance, which he clearly spells out when you first meet him in Act 1. Enough said.
Everything that happens in Act 3 between Orsino and Meredith requires the power vacuum from the events of Act 2. The main actors have had their shadows cast across the entire game. Literally every theme of the game boils down to the fact that Hawke isn't a protagonist on Shepard's level, and can't make everyone happy just by talking loudly.
So, @Aegeri what, exactly, do you want them to retcon? Because as far as I can tell, the plot was exactly the story they wanted, and it's a damn good one. Hell, at least the themes of the game stay consistent and focused instead of being utterly at odds with what the game wants.
Really, what in DA2 was as awful as the following?
The Reapers MAGICALLY relocate the Citadel to Earth for the final battle and kill everyone on it.
The theme of the game being defined as Synthetics vs. Organics when a conflict between Synthetics vs. Organics is resolved 100% positively for both sides earlier in the game.
Kai Leng. Period.
Shepard's complete lack of agency in resolving the Crucible ending
Well, the whole ending. Dear god that's a mess of shitting on the entire game.
The fact that a Turian General and a Quarian Admiral completely abandon their duties to go hang out with the Protagonist in the middle of a war where their skills could actually be very important.
Completely changing the personality and actions of Cerberus and TIM for the shittiest reasons and presenting them incredibly inconsistently in the third game as opposed to the second game as opposed to the first game.
Mass Effect 3 has some brilliant character bits, yeah. Duh. The actual plot is shit and written shittily and resolved shittily. It's a mess of really incongruent themes and stories that honestly shouldn't even be in there but someone decided that Shepard had to resolve every major galactic conflict before defeating the Reapers.
Seriously, it makes no sense from Point 1 when the Reapers attack Earth instead of the Citadel and then the game continues to bang on about the cycle and how EVERYTHING is ALWAYS the SAME every CYCLE.
The Reapers lose all personality instead of the pretty great writing they had in 1 and 2 with Sov and Harb, and Cerberus gets completely bent all over the place in weird and stupid fashion.
DA2 takes the time to give each and every character that takes a major plot action a pretty goddamn clear motivation as to why they're doing what they're doing, foreshadows the major conflicts right from the start, and develops a set of six very compelling companions that all have lives independent from the protagonist. Act 3 is the culmination of a lot of things that the game built up, and while it doesn't deliver perfectly, thanks to forcing a boss fight in on one path that REALLY didn't need it, the entire game tells the story of someone who was at the centre of events but was never in control of them. The Blight, Flemeth, the Lost Thaig, the Arishok, the Gallows confrontation... Hawke was a reactionary protagonist from the start to the finish.
So god dammit guys, stop ragging on DA2's story because it's really good. There's definitely gameplay complaints to be made, and it sure as hell ain't perfect, but the writing and plot and themes and Act 3 aren't nearly as bad as you for some crazy reason think they are.
And no DA2 in no way has a good plot. The fact everyone at the end carries an enormous idiot ball is proof of that.
Answers in second spoiler tag
The first offense is being a mage in the first place. All qunari mages have tongues removed and mouths sewn shut. They all also have a set of guards who's purpose is to kill the mage if the mage casts a spell without orders.
It's kind of a shame we probably wont see a truly sandboxy dragon age, I'd love to explore the world elder scrolls style.