Club PA 2.0 has arrived! If you'd like to access some extra PA content and help support the forums, check it out at patreon.com/ClubPA
The image size limit has been raised to 1mb! Anything larger than that should be linked to. This is a HARD limit, please do not abuse it.
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

[Pathfinder & Other Tabletop RPGs] 1d6 Dragons Fall, Everyone Fries

134689101

Posts

  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    webguy20 wrote: »
    Dubh wrote: »
    Start small and simple until you get the hang of it, then start doing epic multisession plotlines.
    and then move on to a better system. D&D/Pathfinder gives you the brain damage.

    booooo :v:

    What? D&D instils some pretty terrible gaming habits that are surprisingly hard to unlearn.

    I would like to hear what is considered "terrible gaming habits".
    Its not universal, but off the top of my head...

    There's an expectation that combat is going to be the primary way that you will be interacting with the world. Mind, this is a consequence of emulating a genre based around beating ass but this leads to a really shitty mindset later on.

    Attitudes towards the supernatural in general. There's the obvious wizard supremacy issue, and then this bizarre expectation that everything remotely supernatural is not only explicitly magic, but can be categorized as one of two kinds of magic. The worst part is that a lot of games hew closely to this and its kinda treated like this wierd sacred cow in a lot of circles.

    Then there's attitudes towards the roles of the players and DM. I mean this is definitely the most tenuous one since most tables are different, but a lot of people treat the DM as the sole font from whence the stimuli comes from and the players are his passive audience. Then again, its utterly fucking mindblowing when you play a game that encourages the players to introduce their own shit into the scene.

    Also there's this overemphasis on fiddly rules, and this is a big'un. D&D is a fucking mess of rules. I mean, its nowhere near the worst, but its still pretty hefty, which kinda instils this over-reliance on detailed rules, even when the situation doesn't particularly call for them. While there's a big YMMV element to this, I've seen people kinda break over game mechanics either being simple, or just outright not present.

    Oh, and alignment. Aligment as a lense to view everything is goddamned dumb, but that might not be solely D&D's fault.

    zaku.png
    Steam PSN: DerWaffleMous Origin: DerWaffleMous Bnet: DerWaffle#1682
    Calica
  • HunteraHuntera Rude Boy Registered User regular
    Dubh wrote: »
    Uriel wrote: »
    Hey guys lets all play FATAL.

    I almost want to try

    One time only

    And we kill any witnesses

    I didn't see nothin', I didn't hear nothin'.

  • MorivethMoriveth Nobody suspects a thing... Registered User regular
    Can I talk about board games in here

    Cause Pandemic is really fun

    3ds friend code: 2036 9837 9754 Switch: 3661 4488 2896
    PSN/XBL id: Moriveth Steam: L4Mori
    NeoToma
  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    I wanna talk about

    X-wing.

    Its fuckin' boss.

    zaku.png
    Steam PSN: DerWaffleMous Origin: DerWaffleMous Bnet: DerWaffle#1682
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    I can't even remember the last time I played a non-Star Wars DnD game

    These days it's mostly L5R and EP though I am also in a Savage Worlds supers game right now

    the game is really fun

    the system is a bag of shit however

  • StraightziStraightzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User regular
    I wanna talk about

    X-wing.

    Its fuckin' boss.

    My friend picked this up at the Star Wars convention and we played a bunch before I moved away.

    It is really great.

    Although Alliance might be unbalancedly powerful because of fucking droids.

  • DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) What's up, bootlickers?Registered User regular
    webguy20 wrote: »
    Dubh wrote: »
    Start small and simple until you get the hang of it, then start doing epic multisession plotlines.
    and then move on to a better system. D&D/Pathfinder gives you the brain damage.

    booooo :v:

    What? D&D instils some pretty terrible gaming habits that are surprisingly hard to unlearn.

    I would like to hear what is considered "terrible gaming habits".
    Its not universal, but off the top of my head...

    There's an expectation that combat is going to be the primary way that you will be interacting with the world. Mind, this is a consequence of emulating a genre based around beating ass but this leads to a really shitty mindset later on.

    Attitudes towards the supernatural in general. There's the obvious wizard supremacy issue, and then this bizarre expectation that everything remotely supernatural is not only explicitly magic, but can be categorized as one of two kinds of magic. The worst part is that a lot of games hew closely to this and its kinda treated like this wierd sacred cow in a lot of circles.

    Then there's attitudes towards the roles of the players and DM. I mean this is definitely the most tenuous one since most tables are different, but a lot of people treat the DM as the sole font from whence the stimuli comes from and the players are his passive audience. Then again, its utterly fucking mindblowing when you play a game that encourages the players to introduce their own shit into the scene.

    Also there's this overemphasis on fiddly rules, and this is a big'un. D&D is a fucking mess of rules. I mean, its nowhere near the worst, but its still pretty hefty, which kinda instils this over-reliance on detailed rules, even when the situation doesn't particularly call for them. While there's a big YMMV element to this, I've seen people kinda break over game mechanics either being simple, or just outright not present.

    Oh, and alignment. Aligment as a lense to view everything is goddamned dumb, but that might not be solely D&D's fault.

    1) the best D&D styled games I've played don't involve much combat- 4e is the obvious exception to this rule

    2)Not sure what you mean here, but it sounds like a personal playing/DMing style choice

    3)This depends on the DM. I tend to take more player input than what most others do, from what I've seen at colleges and game shops. Part of the DM's job, however, is to present the goddamn world to the players. I'd argue that this is not something necessary to all tabletop games.

    4)Yeah, I ain't gonna fight this complaint since I agree with it. My policy has always been to flip off the the rules when they're not fun, and make something up that's better for the short term.

    5)And alignment is one of those things that's hotly contested. Totally subject to opinion.

    I'm not saying you should like the system, but you're reading way too much into players that enjoy D&D.

    Miss me? Find me on:

    Twitch (I stream most days of the week)
    Twitter (mean leftist discourse)
  • FearghaillFearghaill If there is nothing but what we make in this world let us make goodRegistered User regular
    I think with #2 he is referring to the whole arcane/divine dichotomy?

  • RankenphileRankenphile Passersby were amazed by the unusually large amounts of blood.Registered User, Moderator mod
    holy god I want those teraclips systems

  • RankenphileRankenphile Passersby were amazed by the unusually large amounts of blood.Registered User, Moderator mod
    Also: D&D only introduces "bad gaming habits" if you think "different then what I like" is bad.

    I fucking love D&D. I've played a shitload of other systems, but I love and always will love D&D. I'm one of the few out there that adore 4th edition and have had more fun in that system then any other I've ever run or played. It perfectly suits the sort of game I like to take part in - mainly tactical combat with plenty of mysteries to solve and role-playing as needed. Then again, I love miniatures and building elaborate setpieces, as the visual elements of the game really help enhance the game for me and the players I tend to run games for.

    Yes, since it is the first game of its type that most people encounter it does set up certain expectations or preconceived notions if you try to move to other game systems, but so what? All of them can be overcome, and fucking every game does this. Anything you encounter first will paint your expectations for your next experiences.

    StraightziAntimatter-smashJacobkoshEsseeAnialos
  • StraightziStraightzi Here we may reign secure, and in my choice, To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered User regular
    Yeah uh

    Have you ever tried to play D&D with someone who started out playing PnP with WoD?

  • DichotomyDichotomy Registered User regular
    well I dunno if I'd call myself divine

    0BnD8l3.gif
  • FearghaillFearghaill If there is nothing but what we make in this world let us make goodRegistered User regular
    Straightzi wrote: »
    Yeah uh

    Have you ever tried to play D&D with someone who started out playing PnP with WoD?

    No but I've played D&D with someone who started out with playing WoD LARP

  • MeldingMelding Registered User regular
    I wouldn't call you at all.

    FearghaillSolarStraightziEdith Upwards
  • webguy20webguy20 Registered User regular
    edited October 2012
    My friends and I got back to our Pathfinder Rise of the runelords campaign. Rocking a level 10 monk and rogue. I love doing 5D6 + 2 strength damage per sneak attack, of which there are 4. More if I'm hasted, and the Monk getting to attack 8 times with the help of medusas strike against a flat footed or stunned enemy. So much damage.

    My buddy is playing a cleric and a mage who has rediculous bluff, I think the character, with all of her items and buffs sits at a 27 bluff. So much fun.

    webguy20 on
    Steam ID: Webguy20
    Origin ID: Discgolfer27
    Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited October 2012
    Personally speaking my only real problem with DnD is the class level system

    it restricts what I want to do, and I was reared on point buy freeform games like Shadowrun where I could take whatever I wanted, there are no classes or levels.

    The only games I'll run are ones like that. L5R, Eclipse Phase, Mutants and Masterminds and so on.

    I accept that some people like classes and levels though. Can't for the life of me figure out how but then I can't figure out why people like Lady Gaga so much either.

    Oh yeah and alignment. Alignment is waaaaaaay more trouble than it is worth (it's worth nothing)

    Solar on
  • MeldingMelding Registered User regular
    I like classes because they allow for more defined things. In a lot of games things are set out and balanced in such a way that most anyone can gain access to it. Where in class based game things, they tend to be more specialized. Like sneak attack being a rogue thing. If everyone could sneak attack it wouldn't be a powerful ability and more things would be designed with it in mind to keep it so not everyone can be killed by sneak attacks.

    As well it sets expectations. This is both good and bad but everyone knows what a fighter is supposed to do. you can play against the grain and be successful, but generally you want high physical stats and magical weapons.

    Basically it allows for different design decisions and some comfort.

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    I just don't see why that is better than the ability to essentially construct your own class. Yes, it is nice to be able to look at a comfortable archetype and go "I wanna do that so I'll pick that class," but that's more useful for starting RPers, of which we are not. When it comes to experienced RPers who know how systems work and are willing to sit down and read the book, then you can get that anyway. Especially if a game is written well, and it includes stuff to point people in the right direction (pre-gens, for example, or L5R style schools with their free skills).

    As far as things being available to all, I can see your point, but more design thought being put in there to make such things as sneak attack be viable across all types of characters and enemies is a good thing. Harder to do and balance well, yes, but if you do manage to do so then it's a better state, because you get the freedom to take it if you want ("I've recently been a bit more of a sneaky bugger, so I'll buy a level of sneak attack" is something that is possible in a freeform system. You can do it in DnD as well, but you have to take a level of rogue which fucks up your level plan. Another thing that I dislike, while we're there).

    Essentially, I accept that freeform no classes levels demands a higher level of attention from designers to balance it, and a higher level of attention from players to make their character do what they want to do. But at the same time, you are going to be playing this character for weeks, months, years maybe. Why not put the effort in now and get maximum flexibility as a result?

    Again, it's cool for people to like classes and I am not saying they are having bad wrong fun or anything, just that personally speaking I can't see why they are beloved, since a freeform system can do anything a class system can and more, whereas a class system can only do what it's classes do. And if you are a experienced RPer, surely the former is better?

  • MeldingMelding Registered User regular
    It's not better, it's different.

    a more focused design on certain aspects gets you different results then trying to apply it across a broad spectrum.

    As well, I don't find it limiting to be only in one class, because it does everything i want it to. I can still benefit from working on stealth outside of buying into rogue or assassin.

    Ultimately from previous conversations we have had, i think you find it a lot more constraining than i do. When you're raised on a more free form system to see people willing limit themselves is going to be weird. I find them to be both valid systems with different ends in mind.

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Well I see it more as why do I have to spend some of my XP on a feat, and then some on skills, and then some on spells, and some on new abilities etc, and have them all restricted by the classes I can take?

    Why can't I play a character with no skills? Or all skills? Or no feats? Or loads of feats? The amount of time, playing DnD, I've thought "great, another feat. I don't want another feat, I want to be able to take more skills since this class has fuck all" or "I don't need any more skills. What I really want is to take a couple more feats, to do that cool combat thing."

    The classes thing is tied in with levels and it's just so goddamn frustrating when you are looking through the book at all this cool shit and thinking "I can never have any of that without sacrificing my ability to actually be good at stuff (because while I could take levels in fighter to get more feats I'm probably going to regret not sticking with Paladin, as DnD rewards depth of ability not breadth of ability)."

    So yes, I probably do find it far more restrictive than you.

  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited October 2012
    Dubh wrote: »
    1) the best D&D styled games I've played don't involve much combat- 4e is the obvious exception to this rule
    Yeah, I get that, so have I, but look at your character sheet. A vast majority of what's written on that is solely concerned with either killing stuff or keeping yourself from getting killed, while the leftover 1/6th or so has stuff that you can use outside of a fight. How much of that are you actually using during those sedate sessions where there's no/little combat?
    2)Not sure what you mean here, but it sounds like a personal playing/DMing style choice
    This is more me going on about how D&D (the older versions moreso) encourages you to take stuff that should be handwaved and try and fit it into this wierd magical physics engine that's been developed where either a wizard or god did it. This is why mundane characters doing not-mundane things are horrible anime sorcery.
    3)This depends on the DM. I tend to take more player input than what most others do, from what I've seen at colleges and game shops. Part of the DM's job, however, is to present the goddamn world to the players. I'd argue that this is not something necessary to all tabletop games.
    I know, I said that this was probably the one that applied to a lot of people the least, and probably could just be chalked up to people being really bad DM's, but I've seen a lot of DM's (some here on PA!) that react pretty negatively to any kind of player input on what they're doing. Like, almost violently. These people then kinda breed players who'd MO is to passively just react to DM stimuli, and that's kinda sad.
    4)Yeah, I ain't gonna fight this complaint since I agree with it. My policy has always been to flip off the the rules when they're not fun, and make something up that's better for the short term.
    Yeah, pretty much do that or use systems that are more suited to what you're doing.
    5)And alignment is one of those things that's hotly contested. Totally subject to opinion.
    Kill alignment TIA
    I'm not saying you should like the system, but you're reading way too much into players that enjoy D&D.

    I guess I'm being a bit hyperbolic but this is an actual thing. Like, there are games out there that have special bits of rules text focused on getting readers to not think of things in D&Disms. Heck, Dungeon World had a fanmade primer written for it because some of the target audience had grasping some concepts because it was way different from what they were used to.


    Edit: Classes totally have their place. They're good for establishing archetypes or just segmenting the rules out into manageable chunks in more fiddly systems. The trouble is when you start applying them to settings and concepts that they really don't do justice to. I'm looking at you, D20 modern.

    Der Waffle Mous on
    zaku.png
    Steam PSN: DerWaffleMous Origin: DerWaffleMous Bnet: DerWaffle#1682
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    That said, DnD (well, Pathfinder and 4th ed I guess) at least do what they want to do vaguely well

    unlike, say, Exalted

    which does not do even the beginning of what it wants to do at all

    like, you can, feasibly, play a game of Exalted where everyone is on a similar power level and enemies provide a tough but ultimately defeatable challenge

    but it's be a fucking nightmare to run and you'd have to have a group that were dripping conscientiousness out of their ears

  • HunteraHuntera Rude Boy Registered User regular
    Kill all RPGs, play only Blood Bowl.

    Speaking of which I'm considering kit bashing a Necromantic and/or Lizardman blood bowl tabletop team.

    And looking at the vampire counts line they don't have werewolves in that army for some odd reason, any ideas for making Werewolves and/or general ideas how to make the dudes look more... Blood Bowly?

  • MeldingMelding Registered User regular
    Well, you aren't really spending the xp, it's a bench mark, at Y amount you get Z rewards.

    Also you can spend feats on skills, though not the other way around.

    also the not enough feats for a class is a uniquely 3rd edition problem. As in 4e every class gets the same amount of feats, and they didn't exist earlier.

    In earlier editions you just got flat out new weapon proficiency as you levelled up and skills didn't really exist either.

    Back in the day, if you wanted to pick a lock, you needed to be a thief. Or at least partly a thief, and if you were a thief fighter, you better not try picking that lock in heavy armour, cause it ain't going to work.

    So yeah, class defining your dynamic in a group is an ingrained idea. It's less about you and more about your team, because at least in old DnD you were going to die. Often, if you weren't incredibly good at rolling dice.

    A game evolving that that mind set is going to be a different beast.

    It is a beast i like to ride but i can understand if you don't like it.

    While i'm here, what's a good cyberpunky PnP that isn't shadowrun? i am not well versed in this area.

  • FearghaillFearghaill If there is nothing but what we make in this world let us make goodRegistered User regular
    well you could always try Cyberpunk though I've never actually played it and can't speak to it's strengths/weaknesses.

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Well it's not so much "this class has too many/too few feats" as "I have too many/too few feats for my character and can't get more" which will happen whenever you set the number of feats available, regardless of whether it's the same across classes. Same with xp as a benchmark, it restricts what you can actually take to "this much of X, this much of Y" and so on.

    Also just because old DnD did it that way doesn't make it good. In fact, it's usually the opposite.

    Anyway, Interface Zero is pretty good if you don't mind Savage Worlds (and, when not playing Supers, it's pretty decent)

    Eclipse Phase can run that easily if you just strip out the bodyswapping and limit the tech level

    Errr... There's always GURPS which has cyberpunk supplements and so on

  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    There's Eclipse Phase and possibly Cyberpunk 2020 and a Savage Worlds book called Interface Zero, but really nothing I can think of beyond that that isn't either a generic system (M&M, this is the sole situation where I'd recommend Strands of Fate) or would take a bit of hacking to get working (Apocalypse World).

    zaku.png
    Steam PSN: DerWaffleMous Origin: DerWaffleMous Bnet: DerWaffle#1682
  • MeldingMelding Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »

    Also just because old DnD did it that way doesn't make it good. In fact, it's usually the opposite.

    Well, no, Old DnD is a harsh mistress of pain and torment. But DnD has always been a team game, always will be, so having the game set up so everyone on the team knows what you're capable of in situations where you might not be playing the same group every week is useful.

    In most classless games, i find the set up is usually everyone has a range of skills and they stick to that, it allows everyone a time to shine in that in the car chase, car chase guy is in the zone, need to get the deal done? Face Time Guy is there. Shooty shoot bang bang? Guy Guy, The Guy With A Gun is there. Which is a completely valid way to do things, and might not always be the case.

    Class based games either do that to a huge degree tot he point where only car chase guy can car chase, or it tries to give everyone a role in it. Modern DnD everyone has roles and expectations in and out of combat. out of combat is usually less defined and that's its biggest weakness but expectations are there and easily met and played with.

    Basically i've found skill buy systems to be a team of all stars, where games like DnD is more an All-Star team.

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    I actually find the opposite, in a game where you can do anything, people tend to cross over more. You don't get gun bunnies. You get gun bunny/faces, or gun bunny/riggers, or hackers/faces and so on. Because you aren't limited to one area an unless you spend all your points on it, you are going to be competent in other areas.

    Especially in games like EP and l5R where you have enough xp and it doesn't require a staggering amount to be proficient in an area. Let's be honest, in DnD having a high strength and a good BAB is not what you need to be good in combat. You need feats and special abilities and so on. But in a lot of games, that is all you need. To be decent at shooting in Shadowrun you need, say, Rifles 4 (spec: automatic) and then an agility of about 3 or 4, maybe get yourself some muscle enhancers for +2 agility, a smartlink, that's it you are at 14 dice and that's damn tasty. Not exactly demanding. So after that you can buy yourself some tailored pheremones and the Social skill group at four, with a charisma of 4 (again, competent but not demanding), you are rolling ten dice (which is good for social stuff as well.

    I just don't like how DnD a) restricts what I can take, b) forces me to sacrifice one archetypical ability for another, and c) states what I must spend XP on. I don't see the point. We're all adults here, we all know how to play this game, we don't need telling what we can and cannot take.

    IKRPG does it as well. Makes it better for new players but for experienced players it's just a pain in the arse.

  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    This is more of a complaint about levels and challenge scaling than anything.

    zaku.png
    Steam PSN: DerWaffleMous Origin: DerWaffleMous Bnet: DerWaffle#1682
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Well no

    it's a complaint about classes and levels

    which are in fact closely linked

  • MeldingMelding Registered User regular
    This is more of a complaint about levels and challenge scaling than anything.

    yeah, having a flat baseline that never grows does lead to some more interesting design than having to make monsters for every level range. I won't even attempt to contest this.

    Also having a high BAB does make you really good in combat. originally that was the only thing that made you good in combat, now it's still the main thing and you can now do extra things if you meet certain requirements. having the feat cleave only really helps you sometimes. most of the time you're BAB of 7 is what is lifting you through this.

  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    Not really, the crux of your complaint seems to be about the resources it takes to become competent in a thing and maintain it.

    In a good class based system, the former would be minimized and the latter wouldn't be an issue.

    zaku.png
    Steam PSN: DerWaffleMous Origin: DerWaffleMous Bnet: DerWaffle#1682
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Well it might seem that way

    but it's actually not

    the problem is that I can't pick what I want

    I want to pick what I want because god damn it I want it

  • DichotomyDichotomy Registered User regular
    got no respect for rules and order

    0BnD8l3.gif
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Though yes the poor DnD leveling system where one must invest so much into their main area of competency is a problem

    but more than that I do not want to take this stupid ability here no sir

    I want to take this cool one here

    Pathfinder has done a decent job of trying to mix that up with the different class archetypes

    but there's still the problem of limitations in what you can pick

  • MeldingMelding Registered User regular
    Also, if you've never seen much of anyone just make Gun Guy, The Guy With Guns we've clearly not been in many of the same games because i am really good at making them.

    Well, i guess i more make walking tanks. last shadowrun game i was in i was only shut down because of some kind of EMP device and my character had cyber eyes and ears. Turns out you can't shoot people well when you are blind and deaf.

    All other fights i just ripped people apart with a heavily tricked out base line assault rifle.

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    One can easily make gun guy: the guy with guns but there is the ever present danger of being useless outside of your specialization

    if you are only good at shooting then when it comes to non shooting well you have a bit of a problem

    though in SR I fail to see how someone could only be good with guns given how easy it is to be good with guns

    shit, I made a phys-ad who was a pretty great face and that was after spending a million CPs on making my thrown weapons about as good as a tricked out gunslingers shooting

  • MeldingMelding Registered User regular
    i basically made a mob mook on steroids. There was things i could do outside of shooting, like i ended up being the group's face because i had four charisma and 2 points the talk with people skill group.

    Word of the wise, don't make the most belligerent person in your group the face. Specially when they're playing a mob mook.

    "Nice office you got here. Would be a shame if it, caught fire" and then we ended up knocking the guy out and torturing him for information. I think. I had to leave right after that. they might have made a deal at their detriment.

    Seriously, when your face is basically immune to harm and already known to be the most violent person in the group, things aren't going to go well for you.

This discussion has been closed.