Neither Teemo nor Kayle should be building AP if you're playing them in their best build.
AP teemo is easily best teemo. Bruiser teemo was good before they super buffed the scaling on his e. His consistent magic DPS is only challenged by Cass, Karthus, and AP kayle his map presence is the largest of any non-global ult character in the game. In addition he doesn't suffer a lot of the weaknesses that other AP characters have(due to his very high move speed, built in escape, and shrooms)
AP kayle isn't bad either, especially if people are going to be building armor against you. People vastly underestimate the amount of magic damage that characters tend to do because they forget that armor tends to be a more common buy and MR scaling is more rare and less effective. Kayle has the same insane AP scaling on her e as Teemo does on his, but also has full scaling on his q and scaling on her escape. Literally the only difference between kayle and teemo is that Kayle has a built in slow whereas teemo has a blind, Kayle does AOE damage with her e, and Kayle needs CDR a bit less since she doesn't need to place shrooms(but if she mis times her e and doesn't have 40% CDR, gg, which is another reason why AP kayle has advantages over AD kayle who can't get CDR)
I definitely haven't tested it enough to know for sure, but doesn't Jax scale exceptionally well with All of those stats? He has built in on-hit that scales with AP and increases his stun+aa immunity by 24% uptime. The only other damage options seem to be PD or Guinsoo's, right?
I hear a gunblade goes pretty well on him after the triforce.
I'm genuinely curious as well because the champs that have been discussed with Nashor's - Diana, Jax, Teemo, Kayle all seem to benefit from all the stats it provides, but the impression that I'm getting is that by the time you can buy a nashor's, it's either too early and won't provide enough damage/survivability, or it's too late and the mana regen is wasted.
Mana is a weird, weird thing in this game. No champ feels like they have enough of it early, most feel ok around lvl 10-12 with their base mana pool+regen, but except for this very small list of casters (like Galio), don't you dare go fixing that early game mana issue as it's inefficient and you're delaying your damage (e.g. Sivir), just manage your mana pool better.
Isn't ap teemo crazy as fuck right now after the .4 change
like
I've seen ap teemo just have crazy burst and make shrooms ridiculously useful
I build AP Teemo when I play him. Last time by the time we hit team fights my shrooms were doing over 1k damage and they were all over the place. AP Teemo's shrooms are something to fear. With his E as it sits now I do tons of damage thanks to it.
Neither Teemo nor Kayle should be building AP if you're playing them in their best build.
AP teemo is easily best teemo. Bruiser teemo was good before they super buffed the scaling on his e. His consistent magic DPS is only challenged by Cass, Karthus, and AP kayle his map presence is the largest of any non-global ult character in the game and he doesn't suffer a lot of the weaknesses that other AP characters have(due to his very high move speed, built in escapes, and shrooms)
AP kayle isn't bad either, especially if people are going to be building armor against you. People vastly underestimate the amount of magic damage that characters tend to do because they forget that armor tends to be a more common buy and MR scaling is more rare and less effective.
AP Kayle gets a 1.0 AP ratio on her Q and a .4 AP ratio while her E is up, as opposed to a 1.0 AD ratio on her Q and a 1.0 AD ratio when her E is up and also when it is down because auto attacks. If armor is an issue even with Kayle's passive just buy a LW.
AP Kayle gets a 1.0 AP ratio on her Q and a .4 AP ratio while her E is up, as opposed to a 1.0 AD ratio on her Q and a 1.0 AD ratio when her E is up and also when it is down because auto attacks. If armor is an issue even with Kayle's passive just buy a LW.
It is impossible for her passve and last whisper to make up for an enemy who can buy increased amounts of armor. AD items have less raw AD than AP items, so "1.0 scaling" doesn't mean much, the only advantage AD has over AP/AS is that it can crit, which is not insignificant but doesn't change the calculus in this case.
Mpen boots also considerably more effective in DPS than Zerks both again, due to lower MR values and due to the way that attack speed scales compared to penetration items. AP also scales up much faster into the mid game than AD. In addition to the ancillary benefits of having more abilities more often from the CDR and MP5 which you cannot attain in an ADC build.
AP Kayle flat out does more AoE Damage than AD Kayle (.4 AD scaling vs .4 AP scaling, mpen applying to splash damage, generally larger amounts of AP). Does more damage more consistently, and provides more utlity in the form of more ults and more q's... which also do more damage. This is in addition to the fact that early/mid game DPS and burst are strictly higher with AP.
Speaking of Nashors, I've been fooling around with TF->Nashor's->GA on Jax (traditionally, I'd go TF->GA->Pots/Tank). It was recommended in a guide written by a 2100 Korean dude. I've been surprised at how effective CDR/ASpd/AP/Mana is on him considering the low cost. Anybody else tried this?
IMO as far as offensive items go, Triforce > Hextech Gunblade > Guinsoo's on Jax.
AP Kayle gets a 1.0 AP ratio on her Q and a .4 AP ratio while her E is up, as opposed to a 1.0 AD ratio on her Q and a 1.0 AD ratio when her E is up and also when it is down because auto attacks. If armor is an issue even with Kayle's passive just buy a LW.
It is impossible for her passve and last whisper to make up for an enemy who can buy increased amounts of armor. AD items have less raw AD than AP items, so "1.0 scaling" doesn't mean much, the only advantage AD has over AP/AS is that it can crit, which is not insignificant but doesn't change the calculus in this case.
Mpen boots also considerably more effective in DPS than Zerks both again, due to lower MR values and due to the way that attack speed scales compared to penetration items. AP also scales up much faster into the mid game than AD. In addition to the ancillary benefits of having more abilities more often from the CDR and MP5 which you cannot attain in an ADC build.
AP Kayle flat out does more AoE Damage than AD Kayle (.4 AD scaling vs .4 AP scaling, mpen applying to splash damage, generally larger amounts of AP). Does more damage more consistently, and provides more utlity in the form of more ults and more q's... which also do more damage. This is in addition to the fact that early/mid game DPS and burst are strictly higher with AP.
IMO AD Kayle with an IE and PD is going to do more damage than AP Kayle. And I definitely think zerker's are always the right choice on her.
Neither Teemo nor Kayle should be building AP if you're playing them in their best build.
AP teemo is easily best teemo. Bruiser teemo was good before they super buffed the scaling on his e. His consistent magic DPS is only challenged by Cass, Karthus, and AP kayle his map presence is the largest of any non-global ult character in the game and he doesn't suffer a lot of the weaknesses that other AP characters have(due to his very high move speed, built in escapes, and shrooms)
AP kayle isn't bad either, especially if people are going to be building armor against you. People vastly underestimate the amount of magic damage that characters tend to do because they forget that armor tends to be a more common buy and MR scaling is more rare and less effective.
AP Kayle gets a 1.0 AP ratio on her Q and a .4 AP ratio while her E is up, as opposed to a 1.0 AD ratio on her Q and a 1.0 AD ratio when her E is up and also when it is down because auto attacks. If armor is an issue even with Kayle's passive just buy a LW.
The AD ratio is bigger because each point of AD is significantly more expensive than AP (AD is about 2x more expensive than AP). AD just has so many multipliers (AS, crits, IE, Pen Items), and applies on every right click that it has to be much more expensive. Note that the AD multipliers are much, much more significant than the AP multipliers (CDR, party hat, void staff/mpen items) so this makes each point of AD even more valuable than AP.
so, the way Kayle's kit is, it looks like going hybrid would be best, but if you hit decent crit rates, get an IE and some penetration, you're going to be doing more damage as an ADC, always. The fact that she has two AD ratios suggests that she should be built straight AD because of the current AD mechanics. That being said, Brutalizer/Ghostblade and BC work REALLY well on Kayle for armor reduction needs. Brutalizer is just a wonderful cheap item with a bit of everything you need, and I love adding a BC in to anyone who already has a natural shred (like Corki and Kayle) because it then benefits your whole team, and you'd be surprised how far you can drop someone's armor.
It also suggests that there is a problem with ADC scaling since there is really no viable hybrid path. I wouldn't be surprised to see a rework of the IE and/or crit items. I think there is where the disparity comes from. There is no crit AP item. Nothing that suddenly makes you do double your spell damage, much less 250% of your base up to 2.5/sec.
So new TT - what's the meta, how should you approach it for lanes, junglers, etc? Tried a few bot games on it to see the changes last night and it seems neat but I have no idea how to approach it for a real game scenario.
It's going to be changed fairly dramatically soon, so I wouldn't worry about it too much. If you want to just play a game, play Singed or Darius and win regardless of what you do
IMO AD Kayle with an IE and PD is going to do more damage than AP Kayle. And I definitely think zerker's are always the right choice on her.
Assume Level 10:
IE + PD is 6480 gold. Enough for Nashor's + Death Cap
Nashor's + Deathcap + AP Quints/Mpen Reds + Mpen Boots
vs
IE + DP + Zerks +AD quints/AD reds
AP Kayle will have 300 AP and 81 AD +87.5% AS, 25% CDR, 20 Mpen.
Facing an enemy with Scaling MR Runes and Base Scaling MR (I.E. worst case scenario) AP kayle will be facing, before her MR shred (which makes her MR pen more effective) about 40 MR. Expect enemies to have roughly 70 natural armor at this point too.
Her q will do about 560 damage, which is 400 after resists. Her e will do 81 AD plus 150 bonus magic damage. Which is about 154 damage/attack. The AoE damage is 182/attack or about 130 damage after MR.
So we have
Q: 400
E: 154
Splash: 130
AD Kayle will have 176 AD, 55% chance to crit, 97.5% AS.
Her q will do 436 damage before MR shred, for about 256 damage. Here will do 176 AD(expected damage from crit multiplier is 1.88, total expected damage/attack is 330) plus 30 bonus magic damage
After resists this is about 211 damage/attack with 60 post resist AoE.
Q: 256
E: 211
Splash: 60
So it takes about 4 auto attacks to make up the extra q damage, though they will come a hair sooner, this is about 3 seconds of auto attacking. In addition she gets all of her abilities sooner and is not limted to 10 seconds of DPS due to CDR.
In a team fight, AP kayle because of the extra CDR and splash damage wins handily. In a short fight, AP kayle has more burst. In addition, since Kayles shred applies before penetration (as with all shred items) this magnifies the effect of her MRpen boots(while not effecting % penetration like LW). An enemy with 100 MR can be reduced, with Mpen Boots/Guise/Reds to 35 MR. Which is considerably lower than what you can do with armor, even with a last whisper.
And peoples MR will almost always be considerably lower than their armor.
The problem is that the game does go on after level 10, and ad will always scale better into late game than AP, and with the current itemization options you're paying for a lot of wasted stats, and no amount of mathcraft on your part will change that. Maybe S3 will improve the situation, but until then.
Soooo, I decided F it, I'm buying Syndra and trying her out. I try her out in a normal instead of a ranked because hey, I've never played her. I must say she's soooooooo much better than I thought she'd be. Definitely one of those "takes just as much work to make work as other more efficient mids," but power is definitely not an issue.
In team fights, you can't afford to miss a Q or W, but if you land them and pick a soft target for ult it's good night sweet prince. I ended up going 8/3/11, and could've gotten a lot more kills if I was better with her kit.
Most importantly, she's fun as shit to play. W is amazingly fun, you can use it to pick up an almost dead minion and throw it into others to get all the CS, her W is an AOE slow, her E is a knockback and a stun if used right, and that ult hits so damn hard. Like, she's like a utility mage but with huge damage. A bit like Orianna to be honest, but not as much utility as Ori. Still, using E to stun/peel for AD carry and then using R on the AD/AP at the right time was funnnnnn.
In addition, since Kayles shred applies before penetration (as with all shred items) this magnifies the effect of her MRpen boots(while not effecting % penetration like LW). An enemy with 100 MR can be reduced, with Mpen Boots/Guise/Reds to 35 MR. Which is considerably lower than what you can do with armor, even with a last whisper.
And peoples MR will almost always be considerably lower than their armor.
Go for a Youmuu's+ExeCalling+IE+BC if you want to make armor disappear as Kayle. no need for the LW. it just doesn't make sense when you start with a 15% shred particularly how %pen works currently, maths might change when they put the % first. You go for raw # shred+reduction if you get an upfront %Shred.
Neither Teemo nor Kayle should be building AP if you're playing them in their best build.
AP teemo is easily best teemo. Bruiser teemo was good before they super buffed the scaling on his e. His consistent magic DPS is only challenged by Cass, Karthus, and AP kayle his map presence is the largest of any non-global ult character in the game. In addition he doesn't suffer a lot of the weaknesses that other AP characters have(due to his very high move speed, built in escape, and shrooms)
AP kayle isn't bad either, especially if people are going to be building armor against you. People vastly underestimate the amount of magic damage that characters tend to do because they forget that armor tends to be a more common buy and MR scaling is more rare and less effective. Kayle has the same insane AP scaling on her e as Teemo does on his, but also has full scaling on his q and scaling on her escape. Literally the only difference between kayle and teemo is that Kayle has a built in slow whereas teemo has a blind, Kayle does AOE damage with her e, and Kayle needs CDR a bit less since she doesn't need to place shrooms(but if she mis times her e and doesn't have 40% CDR, gg, which is another reason why AP kayle has advantages over AD kayle who can't get CDR)
An aside, Xerath crushes AP teemo. The matchup is so unfavorable it's almost worth dodging.
Go for a Youmuu's+ExeCalling+IE+BC if you want to make armor disappear as Kayle. no need for the LW. it just doesn't make sense when you start with a 15% shred particularly how %pen works currently, maths might change when they put the % first. You go for raw # shred+reduction if you get an upfront %Shred.
This is bad advise. LW absolutely does make sense when you start with 15% Shred, because
1) armor values are much higher than MR values.
2) % shred and % pen work exactly the same way when stacked, it is only the interaction order with flat pen and flat shred that matter
3) the time it takes to stack BC's shred means that any character that survives long enough for your DPS to be higher will have enough armor that DPS will be higher with LW
4)There are no cheap armor pen items like there are for Mpen.
The problem is that the game does go on after level 10, and ad will always scale better into late game than AP, and with the current itemization options you're paying for a lot of wasted stats, and no amount of mathcraft on your part will change that. Maybe S3 will improve the situation, but until then.
Mid game power matters, as does early game power. AP is stronger mid and early game and easily stronger AoE for only a very small reduction in efficiency single target due to the differences in MR and armor and the strength of MRpen relative to the available Apen options.
Goum, at least you're not saying Nashor's is good on Derpwick anymore. :rotate:
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I never said it was good on warwick
0
Forever Zefirocloaked in the midnight glory of an event horizonRegistered Userregular
edited November 2012
so some Zed questions, maybe Delph can answer
I know it says that if both you and your shadow's Es hit the same enemy, it doesn't do extra damage, but the slow is increased, but what if they hit separate enemies, are they both damaged?
his ult leaves a shadow right? so with R and W you can have 2 shadows up for a bit?
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I know it says that if both you and your shadow's Es hit the same enemy, it doesn't do extra damage, but the slow is increased, but what if they hit separate enemies, are they both damaged?
his ult leaves a shadow right? so with R and W you can have 2 shadows up for a bit?
I haven't been able to get two shadows out yet but I haven't tried to hard too do it. They don't last very long (3 or 4 seconds I think) so I tend to stagger them. Plus if you try to alpha strike and you do manage to get two out (if that's possible) then you don't have much of an escape.
From what I can tell it's better to initiate with the ult, offload damage from that shadow (to charge the secondary effect on ult), and then put out another shadow after if necessary (to chase or escape)
And yeah only the targets that are hit by both aoe's are slowed more, but don't take extra damage (only count for damage as being hit once). If you hit separate targets they are both hit for damage as though they were hit once but are not affected by increased slow. It's just a failsafe against doubling up the damage from what I can tell.
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Posts
AD
I'll have the chat up again if anyone wants to offer suggestions or questions on stream
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like
I've seen ap teemo just have crazy burst and make shrooms ridiculously useful
AP teemo is easily best teemo. Bruiser teemo was good before they super buffed the scaling on his e. His consistent magic DPS is only challenged by Cass, Karthus, and AP kayle his map presence is the largest of any non-global ult character in the game. In addition he doesn't suffer a lot of the weaknesses that other AP characters have(due to his very high move speed, built in escape, and shrooms)
AP kayle isn't bad either, especially if people are going to be building armor against you. People vastly underestimate the amount of magic damage that characters tend to do because they forget that armor tends to be a more common buy and MR scaling is more rare and less effective. Kayle has the same insane AP scaling on her e as Teemo does on his, but also has full scaling on his q and scaling on her escape. Literally the only difference between kayle and teemo is that Kayle has a built in slow whereas teemo has a blind, Kayle does AOE damage with her e, and Kayle needs CDR a bit less since she doesn't need to place shrooms(but if she mis times her e and doesn't have 40% CDR, gg, which is another reason why AP kayle has advantages over AD kayle who can't get CDR)
I hear a gunblade goes pretty well on him after the triforce.
I'm genuinely curious as well because the champs that have been discussed with Nashor's - Diana, Jax, Teemo, Kayle all seem to benefit from all the stats it provides, but the impression that I'm getting is that by the time you can buy a nashor's, it's either too early and won't provide enough damage/survivability, or it's too late and the mana regen is wasted.
Mana is a weird, weird thing in this game. No champ feels like they have enough of it early, most feel ok around lvl 10-12 with their base mana pool+regen, but except for this very small list of casters (like Galio), don't you dare go fixing that early game mana issue as it's inefficient and you're delaying your damage (e.g. Sivir), just manage your mana pool better.
/mana rant off
Joe's Stream.
I build AP Teemo when I play him. Last time by the time we hit team fights my shrooms were doing over 1k damage and they were all over the place. AP Teemo's shrooms are something to fear. With his E as it sits now I do tons of damage thanks to it.
AP Kayle gets a 1.0 AP ratio on her Q and a .4 AP ratio while her E is up, as opposed to a 1.0 AD ratio on her Q and a 1.0 AD ratio when her E is up and also when it is down because auto attacks. If armor is an issue even with Kayle's passive just buy a LW.
Mpen boots also considerably more effective in DPS than Zerks both again, due to lower MR values and due to the way that attack speed scales compared to penetration items. AP also scales up much faster into the mid game than AD. In addition to the ancillary benefits of having more abilities more often from the CDR and MP5 which you cannot attain in an ADC build.
AP Kayle flat out does more AoE Damage than AD Kayle (.4 AD scaling vs .4 AP scaling, mpen applying to splash damage, generally larger amounts of AP). Does more damage more consistently, and provides more utlity in the form of more ults and more q's... which also do more damage. This is in addition to the fact that early/mid game DPS and burst are strictly higher with AP.
IMO as far as offensive items go, Triforce > Hextech Gunblade > Guinsoo's on Jax.
IMO AD Kayle with an IE and PD is going to do more damage than AP Kayle. And I definitely think zerker's are always the right choice on her.
The AD ratio is bigger because each point of AD is significantly more expensive than AP (AD is about 2x more expensive than AP). AD just has so many multipliers (AS, crits, IE, Pen Items), and applies on every right click that it has to be much more expensive. Note that the AD multipliers are much, much more significant than the AP multipliers (CDR, party hat, void staff/mpen items) so this makes each point of AD even more valuable than AP.
so, the way Kayle's kit is, it looks like going hybrid would be best, but if you hit decent crit rates, get an IE and some penetration, you're going to be doing more damage as an ADC, always. The fact that she has two AD ratios suggests that she should be built straight AD because of the current AD mechanics. That being said, Brutalizer/Ghostblade and BC work REALLY well on Kayle for armor reduction needs. Brutalizer is just a wonderful cheap item with a bit of everything you need, and I love adding a BC in to anyone who already has a natural shred (like Corki and Kayle) because it then benefits your whole team, and you'd be surprised how far you can drop someone's armor.
It also suggests that there is a problem with ADC scaling since there is really no viable hybrid path. I wouldn't be surprised to see a rework of the IE and/or crit items. I think there is where the disparity comes from. There is no crit AP item. Nothing that suddenly makes you do double your spell damage, much less 250% of your base up to 2.5/sec.
Joe's Stream.
re: Zed "if you want to play a tanky assassin you might be an Irelia player ;-)" lol It's going to be changed fairly dramatically soon, so I wouldn't worry about it too much. If you want to just play a game, play Singed or Darius and win regardless of what you do
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Assume Level 10:
IE + PD is 6480 gold. Enough for Nashor's + Death Cap
Nashor's + Deathcap + AP Quints/Mpen Reds + Mpen Boots
vs
IE + DP + Zerks +AD quints/AD reds
AP Kayle will have 300 AP and 81 AD +87.5% AS, 25% CDR, 20 Mpen.
Facing an enemy with Scaling MR Runes and Base Scaling MR (I.E. worst case scenario) AP kayle will be facing, before her MR shred (which makes her MR pen more effective) about 40 MR. Expect enemies to have roughly 70 natural armor at this point too.
Her q will do about 560 damage, which is 400 after resists. Her e will do 81 AD plus 150 bonus magic damage. Which is about 154 damage/attack. The AoE damage is 182/attack or about 130 damage after MR.
So we have
Q: 400
E: 154
Splash: 130
AD Kayle will have 176 AD, 55% chance to crit, 97.5% AS.
Her q will do 436 damage before MR shred, for about 256 damage. Here will do 176 AD(expected damage from crit multiplier is 1.88, total expected damage/attack is 330) plus 30 bonus magic damage
After resists this is about 211 damage/attack with 60 post resist AoE.
Q: 256
E: 211
Splash: 60
So it takes about 4 auto attacks to make up the extra q damage, though they will come a hair sooner, this is about 3 seconds of auto attacking. In addition she gets all of her abilities sooner and is not limted to 10 seconds of DPS due to CDR.
In a team fight, AP kayle because of the extra CDR and splash damage wins handily. In a short fight, AP kayle has more burst. In addition, since Kayles shred applies before penetration (as with all shred items) this magnifies the effect of her MRpen boots(while not effecting % penetration like LW). An enemy with 100 MR can be reduced, with Mpen Boots/Guise/Reds to 35 MR. Which is considerably lower than what you can do with armor, even with a last whisper.
And peoples MR will almost always be considerably lower than their armor.
I occasionally build it on Kog. What about Elise? Doesn't she get bonus magic damage on attacks in spider form, or am I misunderstanding?
elise basically has to build pure tank
Unless you are playing dominion in which case AP teemo with a nashors is the best build and kayle does literally whatever the fuck she wants.
Dat trolly Hecarim.
Nothing more terrifying than a spider that won't die.
"Burn it with fire!"
"I can't! Too much MR!"
"OH GOD WHY WON'T IT SQUISH?"
Yeah he was pretty irritating. Glad we could squeak out a win despite his BS. Still running Zed mid, I really like him there.
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Fixed, thanks for the heads up.
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In team fights, you can't afford to miss a Q or W, but if you land them and pick a soft target for ult it's good night sweet prince. I ended up going 8/3/11, and could've gotten a lot more kills if I was better with her kit.
Most importantly, she's fun as shit to play. W is amazingly fun, you can use it to pick up an almost dead minion and throw it into others to get all the CS, her W is an AOE slow, her E is a knockback and a stun if used right, and that ult hits so damn hard. Like, she's like a utility mage but with huge damage. A bit like Orianna to be honest, but not as much utility as Ori. Still, using E to stun/peel for AD carry and then using R on the AD/AP at the right time was funnnnnn.
Go for a Youmuu's+ExeCalling+IE+BC if you want to make armor disappear as Kayle. no need for the LW. it just doesn't make sense when you start with a 15% shred particularly how %pen works currently, maths might change when they put the % first. You go for raw # shred+reduction if you get an upfront %Shred.
Joe's Stream.
An aside, Xerath crushes AP teemo. The matchup is so unfavorable it's almost worth dodging.
Timing Kayle's e is not really that hard, CDR for it is dumb.
This is bad advise. LW absolutely does make sense when you start with 15% Shred, because
1) armor values are much higher than MR values.
2) % shred and % pen work exactly the same way when stacked, it is only the interaction order with flat pen and flat shred that matter
3) the time it takes to stack BC's shred means that any character that survives long enough for your DPS to be higher will have enough armor that DPS will be higher with LW
4)There are no cheap armor pen items like there are for Mpen.
Mid game power matters, as does early game power. AP is stronger mid and early game and easily stronger AoE for only a very small reduction in efficiency single target due to the differences in MR and armor and the strength of MRpen relative to the available Apen options.
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I never said it was good on warwick
I know it says that if both you and your shadow's Es hit the same enemy, it doesn't do extra damage, but the slow is increased, but what if they hit separate enemies, are they both damaged?
his ult leaves a shadow right? so with R and W you can have 2 shadows up for a bit?
XBL - Foreverender | 3DS FC - 1418 6696 1012 | Steam ID | LoL
I haven't been able to get two shadows out yet but I haven't tried to hard too do it. They don't last very long (3 or 4 seconds I think) so I tend to stagger them. Plus if you try to alpha strike and you do manage to get two out (if that's possible) then you don't have much of an escape.
From what I can tell it's better to initiate with the ult, offload damage from that shadow (to charge the secondary effect on ult), and then put out another shadow after if necessary (to chase or escape)
And yeah only the targets that are hit by both aoe's are slowed more, but don't take extra damage (only count for damage as being hit once). If you hit separate targets they are both hit for damage as though they were hit once but are not affected by increased slow. It's just a failsafe against doubling up the damage from what I can tell.
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You're gonna make dig up the multiple page argument we had over Frozen Heart vs Nashor's? boop
I'm just joking around. I just thought it was funny given the current discussion on nashors