Timing Kayle's e is not really that hard, CDR for it is dumb.
Teemo AP mid can absolutely crush certain matchups, and if you play it right, he's a force in team fights too. He's a nightmare in pokey kite comps. Plus, getting kills you don't expect from people hitting shrooms will never stop being hilarious, and it's much easier when you have AP.
Can Riot just delete Darius from the game? Had one on the other team, ended up murdering him eventually as kogmaw, but not before he had 18 kills. So fucking ridiculous, build all tank, do ridiculous damage.
The reason we won? Their ADC went 1-7. Its like great job Darius you took all of the kills and we would just focus you down at the beginning of the team fights because no one else on your team had any gold from kills. He was 6k gold ahead of his ADC. Thank god I was kogmaw because he probably had close to 300 armor by the time the game ended. Slow, w, dead. Also late game lux is terrifying. Ults all day every day.
Annnd that's enough solo queue for tonight. Whole team picks bruisers, dives into obvious 1 v lots situations, rages at me for not following them in. Like I dropped back down to level 5 or something. Also clearly didn't understand why support Lux only had 59 ap by midgame; wards gotta come from somewhere, bros.
Go for a Youmuu's+ExeCalling+IE+BC if you want to make armor disappear as Kayle. no need for the LW. it just doesn't make sense when you start with a 15% shred particularly how %pen works currently, maths might change when they put the % first. You go for raw # shred+reduction if you get an upfront %Shred.
This is bad advise. LW absolutely does make sense when you start with 15% Shred, because
1) armor values are much higher than MR values.
2) % shred and % pen work exactly the same way when stacked, it is only the interaction order with flat pen and flat shred that matter
3) the time it takes to stack BC's shred means that any character that survives long enough for your DPS to be higher will have enough armor that DPS will be higher with LW
4)There are no cheap armor pen items like there are for Mpen.
The problem is that the game does go on after level 10, and ad will always scale better into late game than AP, and with the current itemization options you're paying for a lot of wasted stats, and no amount of mathcraft on your part will change that. Maybe S3 will improve the situation, but until then.
Mid game power matters, as does early game power. AP is stronger mid and early game and easily stronger AoE for only a very small reduction in efficiency single target due to the differences in MR and armor and the strength of MRpen relative to the available Apen options.
Goum, at least you're not saying Nashor's is good on Derpwick anymore. :rotate:
?
I never said it was good on warwick
Kayles q scales 1:1 with both ad and ap. Her e scales .4 with ap AND 1.0 +percentage based on rank. Pure scaling wise.... ad wins.
Let's take this out of a vacuum. If you build AP and go top its harder for you to harass (cd and mana) and push (lack of ad to kill towers and worse e scaling). So high sustain and safer tops beat you
If you go mid you have one nuke. Your e isn't scary due to lack of ad behind it. They will outtrade you. Mids with multiple ways to harass you like Brand cassiopaeia and ryze will just murder you.
In the end, building your nashors tooth will have you fall off and unnecessarily behind, ON TOP of you effectively losing lane due to their more efficient itemization.
Teemo it is better on but deathcap is still the best for his shrooms and e passive
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eeSanGI slice like a goddamn hammer.Registered Userregular
But I've seen a pro do support Anivia, and I'm fairly certain that's terrible
Why is it terrible though? What concretely makes it bad? I could see it working out decently
You have a stun, a way to manipulate positioning and a zone control tool. Nothing in her kit makes me think that she couldn't do the job, especially considering that her base values are all amazing.
She is super mana intensive and so cannot keep up sustained harass. She is super squishy and is easily focused down in a double lane. Her stun is hard to hit.
Anivia's biggest advantages are wave clear and team fight AoE. But you don't get any of that without items, you just get the wall.
Support Anivia has an auto attack that outranges almost everyone in bottom lane. This will ruin any bottom lane without sustain.
Her stun is slightly easier to land from a bush and Walls give massive space control. You cannot sit in a warded bush without being at risk of dying to any ganks. Anivia can peel people off your AD better than Nunu can. I've played against this and I was pretty impressed.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
Anivia's ult also lowers attack speed, if I'm not mistaken. It won't for very long out of support but it's something. It also doesn't have to wait for disables to be thrown out like Nunu does (even though he can snowball you over and over why the fuck is my movement speed below zero what the fuck).
But I've seen a pro do support Anivia, and I'm fairly certain that's terrible
Why is it terrible though? What concretely makes it bad? I could see it working out decently
You have a stun, a way to manipulate positioning and a zone control tool. Nothing in her kit makes me think that she couldn't do the job, especially considering that her base values are all amazing.
She is super mana intensive and so cannot keep up sustained harass. She is super squishy and is easily focused down in a double lane. Her stun is hard to hit.
Anivia's biggest advantages are wave clear and team fight AoE. But you don't get any of that without items, you just get the wall.
Support Anivia has an auto attack that outranges almost everyone in bottom lane. This will ruin any bottom lane without sustain.
Her stun is slightly easier to land from a bush and Walls give massive space control. You cannot sit in a warded bush without being at risk of dying to any ganks. Anivia can peel people off your AD better than Nunu can. I've played against this and I was pretty impressed.
I think this is correct. You are the first person to agree with me though.
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eeSanGI slice like a goddamn hammer.Registered Userregular
Anivia has really high base damage on her skills. This is why froggen can get Tear + Warmog's + GA on her and still carry.
Walls can single handedly win team fights and chasing through her ult usually accomplishes nothing. She's not broken but she is surprisingly effective as support.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
Kayles q scales 1:1 with both ad and ap. Her e scales .4 with ap AND 1.0 +percentage based on rank. Pure scaling wise.... ad wins.
No, Kayles e scales .4 AP on the magic damage. It gains additional splash damage equal to .4 AD but that additional AD based splash damage does not hit the target of the attack. It gains normal attack damage, I accounted for that with my numbers
Let's take this out of a vacuum. If you build AP and go top its harder for you to harass (cd and mana) and push (lack of ad to kill towers and worse e scaling). So high sustain and safer tops beat you
AP kayle has more mana to harass, does more damage with her primary harass(q to e AA's) clears waves faster due to larger AoE damage from e and has more sustain due to AP scaling on w(though less due to no lifesteal) and her harass comes off of CD faster.
AD Kayle outscales AP Kayle in the lategame.
Teemo it is better on but deathcap is still the best for his shrooms and e passive
Teemo gets Death Cap second, the double scaling from attack speed on his e means that nashors is better in terms of DPS for a first item. Also, more CDR and MP5 means more shrooms, which are updated when you get more AP, but you cannot retroactively get more shrooms if you get CDR later. This is why the previous AP teemo build was DFG to deathcap (or nashors)
Ok after playing quite a few games of Zed, super ninja. I definitely feel like he is a solid mid pick. Good harass, good escape, and generally he can stay in lane forever and quickly clear wraith camps.
Obviously only really going to pick him mid if we need some sort of ad assassin but he's a good choice for it from what i've experienced.
Oh, and Zed remains, probably forever so, a horrific name for a ninja.
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I don't mean to goose up the discussion, but have you played this out? Every time you pull out math, it doesn't reflect the nature of the game. And in this case it is even wrong, just by ratios.
You say ap Kayle is better but the items nashors builds from are less efficient than the items her opponents will build. And given equal skill, they will eat her alive if she falls behind like that. And if she falls behind, she has to rely on her lategame. Which you already neutered. This is a game revolving around incremental advantages. Nashors doesn't provide aid with that.
And you say nashors on teemo os better than deathcap when the biggest of advantage of teemo is the horrifying map advantage with huge damage in every bush.
If you're talking SR nashors first is better on Teemo because you need the mp5 and cdr to spam the lane and surrounding areas with shrooms. DC can come later because it's not like you'll be roaming the entire map shrooming everywhere like you would be after the laning phase, and even if you did you wouldn't have the mana or cdr to place many anyway.
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I don't mean to goose up the discussion, but have you played this out? Every time you pull out math, it doesn't reflect the nature of the game. And in this case it is even wrong, just by ratios.
You say ap Kayle is better but the items nashors builds from are less efficient than the items her opponents will build. And given equal skill, they will eat her alive if she falls behind like that. And if she falls behind, she has to rely on her lategame. Which you already neutered. This is a game revolving around incremental advantages. Nashors doesn't provide aid with that.
And you say nashors on teemo os better than deathcap when the biggest of advantage of teemo is the horrifying map advantage with huge damage in every bush.
Yes. I play quite a bit of AP teemo and Nashor's first is better than D-cap first. Kayle runs the exact same ratios (well better ratios actually), with the only functional difference is that she has a slow instead of blind, better clear, and better range. The biggest effect of Nashor's first is that you're more able to apply your AA damage and kite/attack move. In addition the items that Nashor's builds from are valuable for all of your abilities.
The CDR and MP5 also mean that you get more shrooms in more brushes, it also lets you push your wave effectively
Math is math, it cannot "not reflect the nature of the game" unless the numbers are wrong. The fact that people do inefficient things(like buy black cleaver instead of last whisper) doesn't mean that they did the right thing.
Lategame Magic damage from .4 AP scaling AA's does a huge amount of consistent damage, especially if the enemy does not have as much MR as Armor.
So, let's say, hypothetically, that someone was trying to decide between picking up Fiora, Nautilus or Lulu. Which one would you suggest?
Fiora has a bunch of bad lanes (but you can totally play her in draft), Nautilus plays a lot like all the other tanky support junglers, and Lulu is a fun and flexible support who's probably a little on the weak side right now compared to someone like Sona. Really I think it just comes down to what lane you want to play more.
I'd rather play Sona if I'm going to play a mage support, and I like Nautilus but I'm concerned the S3 changes will hurt his already weak early jungle :<
God the people in draft are the worst. I would say that I need to raise my normal elo, but I don't think the MID NO IM MID gets any better...
I don't mean to goose up the discussion, but have you played this out? Every time you pull out math, it doesn't reflect the nature of the game. And in this case it is even wrong, just by ratios.
You say ap Kayle is better but the items nashors builds from are less efficient than the items her opponents will build. And given equal skill, they will eat her alive if she falls behind like that. And if she falls behind, she has to rely on her lategame. Which you already neutered. This is a game revolving around incremental advantages. Nashors doesn't provide aid with that.
And you say nashors on teemo os better than deathcap when the biggest of advantage of teemo is the horrifying map advantage with huge damage in every bush.
Yes. I play quite a bit of AP teemo and Nashor's first is better than D-cap first. Kayle runs the exact same ratios (well better ratios actually), with the only functional difference is that she has a slow instead of blind, better clear, and better range. The biggest effect of Nashor's first is that you're more able to apply your AA damage and kite/attack move. In addition the items that Nashor's builds from are valuable for all of your abilities.
The CDR and MP5 also mean that you get more shrooms in more brushes, it also lets you push your wave effectively
Math is math, it cannot "not reflect the nature of the game" unless the numbers are wrong. The fact that people do inefficient things(like buy black cleaver instead of last whisper) doesn't mean that they did the right thing.
Lategame Magic damage from .4 AP scaling AA's does a huge amount of consistent damage, especially if the enemy does not have as much MR as Armor.
So math is math and can't be wrong eh? So not having all variables solved for isn't not reflecting the true solution of an equation?
What if your enemy can naturally outtrade you. What if they have more gold than you. What if you are 2v1? Where's their jungler? What's your teamcomp? Etc etc
You say nashors. That means you think that nashors tooth is a better item in the majority of situations. You believe your math supports it. On kayle (i dont play enough teemo to have a solid grounded argument) can you honestly say the extra .6 ratio, better aoe and better scaling isnt plain better in a majority of matchups and in game situations?
That is why you think your math only in a vacuum approach works. You ignore how the game is actually played.
Do you really think nashors is secretly overpowered and no one else has run these numbers before?
There's a reason ad carries kill everything late game. Higher ratios (autoattacks) being applied faster and with more modifiers than any other damage source. Your ap kayle neither bursts nor carries with her kit. It's diet zilean.
Again on teemo it may be a viable option since he is actually fantastic ap what with his more than one ap burst ability.
Speaking of support Lux, how to level early on? I've been going Q E/W W/E then W>Q>E, but it's actually tempting sometimes to max E first so I can poke more meaningfully.
Also, I just built Nashors Tooth on Chogath top against riven. Went ROA -> Into Armor Boots (was against shyv jungle) --> Chain Vest --> Nashors Tooth. I was top lane Chogath. Completely ate riven. Got first blood on him by selectively using vorpal spikes on toggle to only use it when I would splash him with it. After that, just murderated him. Built a FH and Absyal towards the end. Super tanky, did a good deal of aoe damage, the mana regen from the tooth with the CDR was really good early. Rushing the FH might have been safer, but with the Tooth I could just abuse riven when she came into last hit with auto attacks and ruptures/silence. So funny, comes in with q to kill minions, silence, pop up, auto auto, finally stuns me, half hp gone. Chogaths mana regen from minions is great, but it shoves the lane hard, with the tooth I had good enough regen so I could combo without doing that.
Again on teemo it may be a viable option since he is actually fantastic ap what with his more than one ap burst ability.
Teemo has only one AP burst ability and his primary disadvantage is that he can be focused down too easily. Which is to say that Kayle's better AP burst ability plus her ultimate negate AP Teemo's primary disadvantage.
can you honestly say the extra .6 ratio, better aoe and better scaling isnt plain better in a majority of matchups and in game situations?
But its not a better ratio, and its worse(in fact much worse) AoE. AD kayle has better late game scaling and less than half of the AoE damage of AP kayle.
Look, AP is cheaper than AD. Massively so. A .4 AP ratio on your auto attacks is not equivalent to a .4 AD ratio. The only reason that AD scales better than AP is because it has more multipliers.
AD has damage, crit, and attack speed
AP has AP, and minorly CDR (for characters with single click abilities that can serve as their primary DPS, like Casseopea and Karthus)
When you add attack speed scaling to AP ratios they get a lot better because you get a second multiplicative scaling ability.
Take for instance, Casseopea, the highest consistent AP dps in the game so long as she hits with her posion. She does .5 AP on a .5 second CD with about a .2 second cast time. Which means that she is running about 1.5 e's a second at .5 AP ratio. Teemo/Kayle run pretty similar to that, upwards if higher if they get more AS than the Nashors, though its probably best to go AP/tanky like Zhonya/Aybssal than it is to go for more AS. They can chase hard due to Move speed buffs and slows and they have utility in their ultimate.
Kayle has the exact same AP scaling on her e that teemo has on his e, with the exception that Kayle doesn't get the extra .4 AP at the end of a combo due to extra ticks. However she does get .2AP more on her q (and more range on both) which allow her to more easily apply more auto attacks.
But that's the same for any champion. Use their abilities on minions and you push the lane. I don't see what about Cho'gath's passive shoves the lane.
He was saying that if you're using abilities to push the lane your natural MP5 and the passive are not enough to keep you up. But if you have nashors you're ok (both because it increases your AS to push harder with spikes, and increases the damage on the spikes)
if you're counting the ap ratios cass is putting out on a per second basis keep in mind that they're also poisoned, usually by Q, which is .267 per second, and on top of that her E has 700 range
additionally, the AP ratio on these characters autoattacks does NOT give any lifesteal benefit unless you buy spell vamp and even then that would be terrible
the sustain on lifesteal is very important to keep in mind on autoattacker champions
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Teemo AP mid can absolutely crush certain matchups, and if you play it right, he's a force in team fights too. He's a nightmare in pokey kite comps. Plus, getting kills you don't expect from people hitting shrooms will never stop being hilarious, and it's much easier when you have AP.
The reason we won? Their ADC went 1-7. Its like great job Darius you took all of the kills and we would just focus you down at the beginning of the team fights because no one else on your team had any gold from kills. He was 6k gold ahead of his ADC. Thank god I was kogmaw because he probably had close to 300 armor by the time the game ended. Slow, w, dead. Also late game lux is terrifying. Ults all day every day.
Kayles q scales 1:1 with both ad and ap. Her e scales .4 with ap AND 1.0 +percentage based on rank. Pure scaling wise.... ad wins.
Let's take this out of a vacuum. If you build AP and go top its harder for you to harass (cd and mana) and push (lack of ad to kill towers and worse e scaling). So high sustain and safer tops beat you
If you go mid you have one nuke. Your e isn't scary due to lack of ad behind it. They will outtrade you. Mids with multiple ways to harass you like Brand cassiopaeia and ryze will just murder you.
In the end, building your nashors tooth will have you fall off and unnecessarily behind, ON TOP of you effectively losing lane due to their more efficient itemization.
Teemo it is better on but deathcap is still the best for his shrooms and e passive
Support Anivia has an auto attack that outranges almost everyone in bottom lane. This will ruin any bottom lane without sustain.
Her stun is slightly easier to land from a bush and Walls give massive space control. You cannot sit in a warded bush without being at risk of dying to any ganks. Anivia can peel people off your AD better than Nunu can. I've played against this and I was pretty impressed.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
I think this is correct. You are the first person to agree with me though.
Walls can single handedly win team fights and chasing through her ult usually accomplishes nothing. She's not broken but she is surprisingly effective as support.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
No, Kayles e scales .4 AP on the magic damage. It gains additional splash damage equal to .4 AD but that additional AD based splash damage does not hit the target of the attack. It gains normal attack damage, I accounted for that with my numbers
AP kayle has more mana to harass, does more damage with her primary harass(q to e AA's) clears waves faster due to larger AoE damage from e and has more sustain due to AP scaling on w(though less due to no lifesteal) and her harass comes off of CD faster.
AD Kayle outscales AP Kayle in the lategame.
Teemo gets Death Cap second, the double scaling from attack speed on his e means that nashors is better in terms of DPS for a first item. Also, more CDR and MP5 means more shrooms, which are updated when you get more AP, but you cannot retroactively get more shrooms if you get CDR later. This is why the previous AP teemo build was DFG to deathcap (or nashors)
Obviously only really going to pick him mid if we need some sort of ad assassin but he's a good choice for it from what i've experienced.
Oh, and Zed remains, probably forever so, a horrific name for a ninja.
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You say ap Kayle is better but the items nashors builds from are less efficient than the items her opponents will build. And given equal skill, they will eat her alive if she falls behind like that. And if she falls behind, she has to rely on her lategame. Which you already neutered. This is a game revolving around incremental advantages. Nashors doesn't provide aid with that.
And you say nashors on teemo os better than deathcap when the biggest of advantage of teemo is the horrifying map advantage with huge damage in every bush.
Yes. I play quite a bit of AP teemo and Nashor's first is better than D-cap first. Kayle runs the exact same ratios (well better ratios actually), with the only functional difference is that she has a slow instead of blind, better clear, and better range. The biggest effect of Nashor's first is that you're more able to apply your AA damage and kite/attack move. In addition the items that Nashor's builds from are valuable for all of your abilities.
The CDR and MP5 also mean that you get more shrooms in more brushes, it also lets you push your wave effectively
Math is math, it cannot "not reflect the nature of the game" unless the numbers are wrong. The fact that people do inefficient things(like buy black cleaver instead of last whisper) doesn't mean that they did the right thing.
Lategame Magic damage from .4 AP scaling AA's does a huge amount of consistent damage, especially if the enemy does not have as much MR as Armor.
They're all different roles so there's little point drawing a direct comparison. Do you want to be an AD carry, a CC heavy tank or support/mage?
Oh I guess MLG has started by the way. http://www.majorleaguegaming.com/live#event=fall&streams=lol
Sounds like Nanjin Sword just thrashed CLG.NA.
Fiora has a bunch of bad lanes (but you can totally play her in draft), Nautilus plays a lot like all the other tanky support junglers, and Lulu is a fun and flexible support who's probably a little on the weak side right now compared to someone like Sona. Really I think it just comes down to what lane you want to play more.
It's always hilarious to see how hard the koreans destroy american teams.
Steam
One of them is a girl and the other is... oh wait
God the people in draft are the worst. I would say that I need to raise my normal elo, but I don't think the MID NO IM MID gets any better...
So math is math and can't be wrong eh? So not having all variables solved for isn't not reflecting the true solution of an equation?
What if your enemy can naturally outtrade you. What if they have more gold than you. What if you are 2v1? Where's their jungler? What's your teamcomp? Etc etc
You say nashors. That means you think that nashors tooth is a better item in the majority of situations. You believe your math supports it. On kayle (i dont play enough teemo to have a solid grounded argument) can you honestly say the extra .6 ratio, better aoe and better scaling isnt plain better in a majority of matchups and in game situations?
That is why you think your math only in a vacuum approach works. You ignore how the game is actually played.
Do you really think nashors is secretly overpowered and no one else has run these numbers before?
There's a reason ad carries kill everything late game. Higher ratios (autoattacks) being applied faster and with more modifiers than any other damage source. Your ap kayle neither bursts nor carries with her kit. It's diet zilean.
Again on teemo it may be a viable option since he is actually fantastic ap what with his more than one ap burst ability.
Also, I just built Nashors Tooth on Chogath top against riven. Went ROA -> Into Armor Boots (was against shyv jungle) --> Chain Vest --> Nashors Tooth. I was top lane Chogath. Completely ate riven. Got first blood on him by selectively using vorpal spikes on toggle to only use it when I would splash him with it. After that, just murderated him. Built a FH and Absyal towards the end. Super tanky, did a good deal of aoe damage, the mana regen from the tooth with the CDR was really good early. Rushing the FH might have been safer, but with the Tooth I could just abuse riven when she came into last hit with auto attacks and ruptures/silence. So funny, comes in with q to kill minions, silence, pop up, auto auto, finally stuns me, half hp gone. Chogaths mana regen from minions is great, but it shoves the lane hard, with the tooth I had good enough regen so I could combo without doing that.
n-not anymore than just last hitting?
Yeah, there's a finite amount of minions / time; of course, using Cho'gath's mana to do stuff pushes the lane too.
But its not a better ratio, and its worse(in fact much worse) AoE. AD kayle has better late game scaling and less than half of the AoE damage of AP kayle.
Look, AP is cheaper than AD. Massively so. A .4 AP ratio on your auto attacks is not equivalent to a .4 AD ratio. The only reason that AD scales better than AP is because it has more multipliers.
AD has damage, crit, and attack speed
AP has AP, and minorly CDR (for characters with single click abilities that can serve as their primary DPS, like Casseopea and Karthus)
When you add attack speed scaling to AP ratios they get a lot better because you get a second multiplicative scaling ability.
Take for instance, Casseopea, the highest consistent AP dps in the game so long as she hits with her posion. She does .5 AP on a .5 second CD with about a .2 second cast time. Which means that she is running about 1.5 e's a second at .5 AP ratio. Teemo/Kayle run pretty similar to that, upwards if higher if they get more AS than the Nashors, though its probably best to go AP/tanky like Zhonya/Aybssal than it is to go for more AS. They can chase hard due to Move speed buffs and slows and they have utility in their ultimate.
Kayle has the exact same AP scaling on her e that teemo has on his e, with the exception that Kayle doesn't get the extra .4 AP at the end of a combo due to extra ticks. However she does get .2AP more on her q (and more range on both) which allow her to more easily apply more auto attacks.
He was saying that if you're using abilities to push the lane your natural MP5 and the passive are not enough to keep you up. But if you have nashors you're ok (both because it increases your AS to push harder with spikes, and increases the damage on the spikes)
I am very confused!
additionally, the AP ratio on these characters autoattacks does NOT give any lifesteal benefit unless you buy spell vamp and even then that would be terrible
the sustain on lifesteal is very important to keep in mind on autoattacker champions