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Cyberpunk 2077 - It Can't Get Darker Than Night City, Right?

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  • CarbonFireCarbonFire See you in the countryRegistered User regular
    Considering this is Cyberpunk, the Scythe-armed cyborg lady is probably being controlled by a dude in a brain case.

    Or an A.I.

    Steam: CarbonFire MWO, PSN, Origin: Carb0nFire
  • AlegisAlegis Impeckable Registered User regular
    Well they already had me sold at "from cd projekt"

    The job vacancies listing at their site lists a "RPG in a dark fantasy World"
    HMMM I wonder what that is.

  • ZenitramZenitram Registered User regular
    Will there be nude cards for me to collect?

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  • AlegisAlegis Impeckable Registered User regular
    nude holo-cards

    this is the future

  • testsubject23testsubject23 King of No Sleep ZzzzzzzRegistered User regular
    CarbonFire wrote: »
    Considering this is Cyberpunk, the Scythe-armed cyborg lady is probably being controlled by a dude in a brain case.

    Or an A.I.

    That's what makes the cognitive dissonance that @PreciousBodilyFluids mentioned so *perfect*.
    My reaction was just as he described, interest changing to concern and then shock, as the scene reveals first the "sexy lady" appearance conceals a cybernetic murder machine underneath. All I could think, when that bullet bounced off her face was "coooool!" followed by "she may not even be female or human at all". Her glassy-eyed stare throughout the whole thing (even while bullets were hitting her) really underscored the notion that this isn't a girl per se, it's a mechanism disguised as a girl. Even if she's got a meaty brain in there somewhere, her appearance is a trick.
    I thought it was pretty effective.

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  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON Registered User regular
    edited January 2013
    Fun fact/facts: the lady in the advertisement on the street and the gun the awesome super badass cop man uses are both from some of the original Cyberpunk 2020 sourcebooks. There might be more stuff but this is what I'm reporting secondhand - I never played Cyberpunk 2020 or anything.
    CarbonFire wrote: »
    Considering this is Cyberpunk, the Scythe-armed cyborg lady is probably being controlled by a dude in a brain case.

    Or an A.I.

    That's what makes the cognitive dissonance that @PreciousBodilyFluids mentioned so *perfect*.
    My reaction was just as he described, interest changing to concern and then shock, as the scene reveals first the "sexy lady" appearance conceals a cybernetic murder machine underneath. All I could think, when that bullet bounced off her face was "coooool!" followed by "she may not even be female or human at all". Her glassy-eyed stare throughout the whole thing (even while bullets were hitting her) really underscored the notion that this isn't a girl per se, it's a mechanism disguised as a girl. Even if she's got a meaty brain in there somewhere, her appearance is a trick.
    I thought it was pretty effective.
    Yeah, the trailer is pretty much How To Objectify Women In Every Way Possible 101.

    TychoCelchuuu on
    Synthesis
  • ArchsorcererArchsorcerer Registered User regular
    Taranis wrote:
    It's a shotgun. The text says MILITECH 12 GA AU, or possibly AO, but I'm assuming the cutoff portion is "auto."

    Judging by the size of the magazine compared to the character's fingers it could just as likely be a 5.56mm if I'm misinterpreting the text (5.56 rounds are just shorter than my pinky). It's definitely too big for an SMG though.

    It's the militech "crusher". It's actually an old weapon in 2077 (it dates back to the old 2020 ruleset). It's a pistol that fires 20 gauge shotgun slugs.

    @TychoCelchuuu

    @Operative21 identified the gun earlier.

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  • DonnictonDonnicton Registered User regular
    CarbonFire wrote: »
    Considering this is Cyberpunk, the Scythe-armed cyborg lady is probably being controlled by a dude in a brain case.

    Or an A.I.

    That's what makes the cognitive dissonance that @PreciousBodilyFluids mentioned so *perfect*.
    My reaction was just as he described, interest changing to concern and then shock, as the scene reveals first the "sexy lady" appearance conceals a cybernetic murder machine underneath. All I could think, when that bullet bounced off her face was "coooool!" followed by "she may not even be female or human at all". Her glassy-eyed stare throughout the whole thing (even while bullets were hitting her) really underscored the notion that this isn't a girl per se, it's a mechanism disguised as a girl. Even if she's got a meaty brain in there somewhere, her appearance is a trick.
    I thought it was pretty effective.

    Well the game is likely going to go to great lengths to explore the relationship between humans and machines, especially with the YouTube video's underscoring of the fact that people tend to get hooked on augmenting themselves. She probably was a human at one point, and she probably does have a brain in that body, but she's more machine than human now, and in the end you could look at it really as just being a brain in a machine shell at that point.

    If anything the brain case is probably in that metal body. The whole thing just being a prettier version of this guy.
    Robobrain.JPG

  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    edited January 2013
    Donnicton wrote: »
    CarbonFire wrote: »
    Considering this is Cyberpunk, the Scythe-armed cyborg lady is probably being controlled by a dude in a brain case.

    Or an A.I.

    That's what makes the cognitive dissonance that @PreciousBodilyFluids mentioned so *perfect*.
    My reaction was just as he described, interest changing to concern and then shock, as the scene reveals first the "sexy lady" appearance conceals a cybernetic murder machine underneath. All I could think, when that bullet bounced off her face was "coooool!" followed by "she may not even be female or human at all". Her glassy-eyed stare throughout the whole thing (even while bullets were hitting her) really underscored the notion that this isn't a girl per se, it's a mechanism disguised as a girl. Even if she's got a meaty brain in there somewhere, her appearance is a trick.
    I thought it was pretty effective.

    Well the game is likely going to go to great lengths to explore the relationship between humans and machines, especially with the YouTube video's underscoring of the fact that people tend to get hooked on augmenting themselves. She probably was a human at one point, and she probably does have a brain in that body, but she's more machine than human now, and in the end you could look at it really as just being a brain in a machine shell at that point.

    If anything the brain case is probably in that metal body. The whole thing just being a prettier version of this guy.
    Robobrain.JPG

    The fact that she later appears in full police armor, expression different emotion, seemed to reinforce agency being in that actual, physical thing in the hilariously short dress, whether it's a gynoid or a woman with a fully cybernetic body. Presumably you wouldn't treat a "doll" like that, at least if you were aware of all the facts. Unless you were already in on the scheme that would required a remotely-controlled gynoid slicing people up in a tube dress.

    Synthesis on
    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • ScosglenScosglen Registered User regular
    edited January 2013
    It's pretty clear from the evidence in the trailer and the things CDP have been talking about that the lady is a human who has undergone so much modification and replacement that she has developed "cyberpsychosis" and snapped in a violent killing spree. The "twist" at the end is that the people whose job it is to actually stop robo-killers are barely any less augmented themselves, to the point that they saw fit to actually recruit her.

    Scosglen on
    TychoCelchuuu
  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    It's Psychopass: The Game.

    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • DonnictonDonnicton Registered User regular
    Scosglen wrote: »
    Scosglen wrote: »
    It's pretty clear from the evidence in the trailer and the things CDP have been talking about that the lady is a human who has undergone so much modification and replacement that she has developed "cyberpsychosis" and snapped in a violent killing spree. The "twist" at the end is that the people whose job it is to actually stop robo-killers are barely any less augmented themselves, to the point that they saw fit to actually recruit her.


    The description in the actual YouTube page for the video is pretty clear on this as well.

  • CarbonFireCarbonFire See you in the countryRegistered User regular
    Yeah, the trailer is pretty much How To Objectify Women In Every Way Possible 101.

    So it's being true to the source material. Got it.

    oh 80s 8->

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited January 2013
    Drake wrote: »
    Cyberpunk has its roots in the 80s, which was around the time that piece of art was created.
    Just so. Hell, I'm surprised she doesn't look even more like a Patrick Nagel print.

    As someone who was around when this was all hip and cool and trendy, I'm tremendously amused that it's now as dated and retro as steam airships, clockwork robots and ray-guns with brass filigree. (A genre which actually followed and was inspired by this, as indicated by the common and now semantically meaningless, to address another poster in this thread, "-punk" construction.)

    Finally, I'd just like to point out that "Cop" was an archetype in the original RPG, going back all the way to first edition (along with Media, Netrunner, et al.) IIRC, the description of that class even says that the PC is one of the few good ones left on the force, which is otherwise corrupt and practically another branch of corp-sec.

    Commander Zoom on
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  • rRootagearRootagea MadisonRegistered User regular
    edited January 2013
    Objectify means to treat like an object right? The opposite of personify?
    Wouldn't any mechanical modifications or instruments added to a person require us to treat them more like objects, especially if it replaces the personality?

    As a concept, going crazy from too many modifications could be exploring how far will the psyche allow itself to become more and more object-like.

    rRootagea on
  • PreciousBodilyFluidsPreciousBodilyFluids Registered User regular
    rRootagea wrote: »
    Objectify means to treat like an object right? The opposite of personify?
    Wouldn't any mechanical modifications or instruments added to a person require us to treat them more like objects, especially if it replaces the personality?

    Only if it does this completely. Anyone/anything that has a form of consciousness is not an object, no matter how mechanized.

    Putting a brain inside a mechanical body would not make them "more like objects" even a little bit, if the mind remains.

    A dude who loses a leg ain't less human. A dude who replaces it with a prosthetic ain't "more like an object".

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    Taranis
  • EumerinEumerin Registered User regular
    Finally, I'd just like to point out that "Cop" was an archetype in the original RPG, going back all the way to first edition (along with Media, Netrunner, et al.) IIRC, the description of that class even says that the PC is one of the few good ones left on the force, which is otherwise corrupt and practically another branch of corp-sec.

    The Cop arche-type's special skill was "Brown Nose", iirc.

    Heh.

    On a more serious note...

    I think people are making too much of the teaser. It's supposed to look cool. It's supposed to grab you and make you say, "Hey, that looks awesome!" It's supposed to give you some very basic setting information. As it's name implies, it's supposed to "tease".

    And it does all of that.

    The teaser isn't supposed to reveal half the plot. Time-wise, we're still too early in the release process for that. The plot will likely change between now and when the game is released. It might change a lot. It might change enough to invalidate anything that gets put into a trailer at this point. So what they're releasing is a "tease" that just gives us some very basic setting information.

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  • VoroVoro Registered User regular
    Fun fact/facts: the lady in the advertisement on the street and the gun the awesome super badass cop man uses are both from some of the original Cyberpunk 2020 sourcebooks. There might be more stuff but this is what I'm reporting secondhand - I never played Cyberpunk 2020 or anything.

    Yeah, the advertisement is Alt Cunningham from the Never Fade Away story in the CP2020 2nd Ed book. Also, I think the police vehicle is the AV-3 "Aerocop" from ChromeBook 2, but the design is slightly different. Then again, there was a completely different pic of the vehicle in the main 2020 book and no picture at all in Maximum Metal, so who knows?

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  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    CarbonFire wrote: »
    Yeah, the trailer is pretty much How To Objectify Women In Every Way Possible 101.

    So it's being true to the source material. Got it.

    oh 80s 8->

    Wow, the 80s married with the creators of the (still very good) The Witcher 2.

    That's a potent mix.

    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • ArchsorcererArchsorcerer Registered User regular
    They just need Mike Pondsmith. :)

    XBL - ArchSilversmith

    "We have years of struggle ahead, mostly within ourselves." - Made in USA
  • rRootagearRootagea MadisonRegistered User regular
    edited January 2013
    rRootagea wrote: »
    Objectify means to treat like an object right? The opposite of personify?
    Wouldn't any mechanical modifications or instruments added to a person require us to treat them more like objects, especially if it replaces the personality?

    Only if it does this completely. Anyone/anything that has a form of consciousness is not an object, no matter how mechanized.

    Putting a brain inside a mechanical body would not make them "more like objects" even a little bit, if the mind remains.

    A dude who loses a leg ain't less human. A dude who replaces it with a prosthetic ain't "more like an object".
    Well I guess that leads into the fun philosophical fritterflappy of What is human?

    In the film Blade Runner, there's apparently an experimental replicant who believes herself to be human.
    In life, there's a mental condition called sociopathy.

    Is the replicant just as human as a mass murderering sociopath and the rest of us by your metric?

    rRootagea on
  • CarbonFireCarbonFire See you in the countryRegistered User regular
    They just need Mike Pondsmith. :)

    Ummmmm,

    http://www.cyberpunk.net/blog/mike-pondsmiths-introduction-2/

    He's been connected to this from the start. He was at the original announcement.

    Steam: CarbonFire MWO, PSN, Origin: Carb0nFire
  • ArchsorcererArchsorcerer Registered User regular
    Yeah, I know.

    I meant he brings the 80s to the development regarding Synthesis previous comment.

    XBL - ArchSilversmith

    "We have years of struggle ahead, mostly within ourselves." - Made in USA
  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    Eumerin wrote: »
    When things spin out of control, they call in MAX-TAC (Maximum Force Tactical Division), popularly called the Psycho Squad.

    For those familiar with it, a good comparison is with the AD Police from Bubblegum Crisis 2032. Although it's not shown much, these guys are shown to be good at what they do, and even manage to take down a military-grade boomer in one episode (which is kind of like your local SWAT team taking out a tank).

    (the incompetent idiots that make up the police force in Bubblegum Crisis 2040 should be ignored)

    In case anyone wants, Hulu has the entirety of the original OVA. Just keep in mind it pushes a hard PG-13 in some episodes.
    Plenty of cyber, not a ton of punk. Psycho Squad, the kickass police who are awesome, is about as anti punk (and thus anticyberpunk) as you can get. And braindances are obviously just ripping off Strange Days. Still looking forward to the game, ridiculous sexualized exploitation aside.

    I wouldn't say that "braindances" are that far removed from Gibson's "Simstim" that was popular in the Sprawl.

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  • CarbonFireCarbonFire See you in the countryRegistered User regular
    Thought this would be relevant given our current discussion surrounding the trailer...
    Most people think cyberpunk is just a summary of specific tropes; big guns, dark streets and dangerous guys in ubiquitous leather dusters. But the core of cyberpunk is a lot more subtle than that. Cyberpunk is about the seductive qualities of corruption and decay. In a world where rules and morality are non-existent, the temptation to descend to the level of the mean streets is always there. It doesn’t have to be dirty or grimy on the physical level. But on the psycho-social level, even the cleanest and most orderly Corp-zone should be rife with darkness and collapse. Ambiguous moral choices are key to cyberpunk, as are victories that aren’t always clear victories, and defeats that feel like victories because they are hard won against impossible odds.

    True cyberpunk also needs an adult feel (and that means more than just the sex). Unlike other genres, cyberpunk characters should have vices to go with their virtues. How they DEAL with those vices is a big part of their complexity. When we looked at the Witcher series, we saw a world where gambling,drinking, hookers and other vices were a big part of character development, but were also handled as part of the general adult character of the world. But in addition, relationships were treated as actual relationships, with the fights, negotiations, regrets and reconciliations that are part of the way real adults handle real situations.

    Last, doomed, Romantic quests are another part of the cyberpunk mythology. You’re not just fighting an evil mega corp because it will get you money. You’re doing it to save a friend, settle a personal score, win a lover, champion a cause. Most of the time, you’re a solo gunslinger riding a dirty, dangerous path, depending on your wits and skills as your follow your lonely quest to do what you know you must. You don’t stride in like a superhero, triumphantly defeating all enemies; you win by the skin of your teeth, and it means more because it’s PERSONAL.

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  • TaranisTaranis Registered User regular
    Oooh That guy. I think he gets it.

    Hype!

    EH28YFo.jpg
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  • PreciousBodilyFluidsPreciousBodilyFluids Registered User regular
    rRootagea wrote: »
    rRootagea wrote: »
    Objectify means to treat like an object right? The opposite of personify?
    Wouldn't any mechanical modifications or instruments added to a person require us to treat them more like objects, especially if it replaces the personality?

    Only if it does this completely. Anyone/anything that has a form of consciousness is not an object, no matter how mechanized.

    Putting a brain inside a mechanical body would not make them "more like objects" even a little bit, if the mind remains.

    A dude who loses a leg ain't less human. A dude who replaces it with a prosthetic ain't "more like an object".
    Well I guess that leads into the fun philosophical fritterflappy of What is human?

    In the film Blade Runner, there's apparently an experimental replicant who believes herself to be human.
    In life, there's a mental condition called sociopathy.

    Is the replicant just as human as a mass murderering sociopath and the rest of us by your metric?

    You're changing the subject bro

    You were talking about people who enhanced their body with technology. Cyborgs are very different from androids/replicants/robots/AI, and so I feel like that's a whole 'nother discussion. I would not call those human, because they aren't and never were, but I would also not consider them "objects" if they had a mind of their own. They're a different category entirely. One not below or subservient to humanity I might add. I'd see them more like a sapient alien species.

    Anything involving a human mind though, no matter what they do with their bodies? I'd still see them as human, but that's not the important part here. They aren't objects. They wouldn't be "more like an object" no matter how much of their organic body they replace with technology.

    tevinterpa.jpg
    TaranisTychoCelchuuu
  • EumerinEumerin Registered User regular
    Anything involving a human mind though, no matter what they do with their bodies? I'd still see them as human, but that's not the important part here. They aren't objects. They wouldn't be "more like an object" no matter how much of their organic body they replace with technology.

    I'd just like to interject one quick comment here -

    iirc, cyberpsychosis as defined by the game setting is basically what happens when a person starts to replace so much of their meat with metal that they actually start to think of themselves as an object instead of a person.

  • PreciousBodilyFluidsPreciousBodilyFluids Registered User regular
    Eumerin wrote: »
    Anything involving a human mind though, no matter what they do with their bodies? I'd still see them as human, but that's not the important part here. They aren't objects. They wouldn't be "more like an object" no matter how much of their organic body they replace with technology.

    I'd just like to interject one quick comment here -

    iirc, cyberpsychosis as defined by the game setting is basically what happens when a person starts to replace so much of their meat with metal that they actually start to think of themselves as an object instead of a person.

    Haha, that does complicate matters. I'm unfamiliar with the setting, so I was mostly discussing cyberization in general.

    Interesting fact though. Do they truly see themselves as an object or just as no longer human/a machine? I feel that might be an important distinction. And is it a case of this always happening when someone replaces too much of their body, or a certain percentage of those that do?

    tevinterpa.jpg
  • DrakeDrake Edgelord Trash Below the ecliptic plane.Registered User regular
    edited January 2013
    Eumerin wrote: »
    Anything involving a human mind though, no matter what they do with their bodies? I'd still see them as human, but that's not the important part here. They aren't objects. They wouldn't be "more like an object" no matter how much of their organic body they replace with technology.

    I'd just like to interject one quick comment here -

    iirc, cyberpsychosis as defined by the game setting is basically what happens when a person starts to replace so much of their meat with metal that they actually start to think of themselves as an object instead of a person.

    Haha, that does complicate matters. I'm unfamiliar with the setting, so I was mostly discussing cyberization in general.

    Interesting fact though. Do they truly see themselves as an object or just as no longer human/a machine? I feel that might be an important distinction. And is it a case of this always happening when someone replaces too much of their body, or a certain percentage of those that do?

    The whole idea of how psyberpsychosis works in this game reminds me of the idea that our consciousness resides within our bodies as a whole, not just the neurons or nervous system. I'm not super familiar with that concept but I do have the impression that it's backed up by some solid science. Either way it fits into this game and it's concepts really well and possibly raises some real life concerns as we get closer and closer to the kinds of prostheses we see in these stories. Honestly, I can't see someone replacing a large amount of their limbs, organs and nervous system without some heavy duty psychological impact of some type. No matter how cool it seems to be to become a transhuman, functionally immortal supercyborg, there are likely to be serious, unknowable consequences to that sort of transformation. It's a fundamental shift of everything we identify as humanity.

    Drake on
  • ZenitramZenitram Registered User regular
    This is a game called Cyberpunk. Whether or not it is actually cyberpunk or if it objectifies women, I don't care at all and seems kind of silly for something that we've seen two minutes and twenty-one seconds of pre-rendered footage of.

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  • TaranisTaranis Registered User regular
    Drake wrote: »
    Eumerin wrote: »
    Anything involving a human mind though, no matter what they do with their bodies? I'd still see them as human, but that's not the important part here. They aren't objects. They wouldn't be "more like an object" no matter how much of their organic body they replace with technology.

    I'd just like to interject one quick comment here -

    iirc, cyberpsychosis as defined by the game setting is basically what happens when a person starts to replace so much of their meat with metal that they actually start to think of themselves as an object instead of a person.

    Haha, that does complicate matters. I'm unfamiliar with the setting, so I was mostly discussing cyberization in general.

    Interesting fact though. Do they truly see themselves as an object or just as no longer human/a machine? I feel that might be an important distinction. And is it a case of this always happening when someone replaces too much of their body, or a certain percentage of those that do?

    The whole idea of how psyberpsychosis works in this game reminds me of the idea that our consciousness resides within our bodies as a whole, not just the neurons or nervous system. I'm not super familiar with that concept but I do have the impression that it's backed up by some solid science.

    From what I've read, consciousness is most likely an emergence of both the brain's 'software' and 'hardware,' but not the nerves connecting to the limbs and organs themselves. Granted we don't know what exactly produces consciousness, or even what it is, but we have no reason to believe that it's tied to anything other than the brain itself. Of course losing limbs and organs would likely have a psychological impact, but as of yet there's no reason to believe that a part of our consciousness would be lost. I'm highly interested in this subject, so if you can find a link to an article referencing this concept I'd love to read it.

    EH28YFo.jpg
  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    Just for the record: the Cop Archetype skill was Authority. Which is basically saying "put the gun down" and having the order obeyed if your skill was high enough and you where enforcing the law. This made is about as useful as you would expect. At least it was Media archetype's ability: Credibility or "believe the newstory I am telling you".

    As for Cyberpunk 2020, it ran on 3 basic rules when it came to the setting:

    1) Style over Substance.
    2) Attitude is Everything.
    3) Live on the Edge.

    Which is hilariously "cool", but this was before Irony came along in the 90s.

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  • PreciousBodilyFluidsPreciousBodilyFluids Registered User regular
    I guess these days that means it'll be received as an ironic critique of the genre, much like action movies.

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  • rRootagearRootagea MadisonRegistered User regular
    edited January 2013
    Going off object oriented ontology because Ian Bogost twitter.
    Given a human's mental model of another entity, and how easily he relates to it using metaphors of himself, then that will determine how much he will objectify it.
    For nonliving objects, we are not able to relate using metaphors of selfhood and will objectify it completely.
    An interesting thing to explore then is what happens when we modify our metaphors of ourselves, particularly the way we sense the world, and how that affects the way we objectify other humans. Or modify ourselves in a way that deviates from our metaphors of ourselves.

    rRootagea on
  • FawstFawst The road to awe.Registered User regular
    edited January 2013
    Darmak wrote: »
    Rick Deckard in Blade Runner is so far from a simple cop that it's not even funny. He starts off retired, spends most of the movie fucking up, then ends it on the run from the police, and oh also he's a replicant himself so really he has been killing his own kind and oh god it's so complex and it is the best movie ever. But yes, Blade Runner is really skirting the edges of cyberpunk - it's much more classic noir mixed with dystopian science fiction.

    I know this is from a page ago, but I didn't know he was a replicant holy shit. Of course, I only saw the movie once a long, long time ago and I was really tired and drunk so I don't remember much of it, but still. Now I gotta rewatch it.

    Totally off-topic so I'll spoiler this.
    Deckard was not a replicant. Period. I could probably write a thesis on how the film goes out of its way to prove to us that he's not. Instead I'll give this short reason, and IMHO, it's the only reason anyone would need:

    The police department would have to be part of a very large and detailed conspiracy in which they agreed to allow a Tyrell Corp Nexus model skinjob carte blanche in which to do police work. These guys hunt these things down and kill them on sight. In what world does that sort of ingrained prejudice just simply up and remove itself from the very nature of those officials? (It doesn't.) And why would those same officers EVER agree to a "pilot program" in which the end result is that they would one day be replaced by the very illegals they hunt down for a living? (They wouldn't.)

    Now, in some alternate universe, I'm sure there's a version of the film where Deckard-as-replicant actually works, but not a single version of the film that exists in this universe does.

    Back on topic.

    I've never heard of Cyberpunk (the PnP) before and I can't believe I haven't. I'm a massive fan of the idea of Shadowrun, but not so much the actual implementation. This sounds even further up my alley. That teaser trailer was great, but it left me a little confused. I'll have to watch it again. I wasn't quite sure what I was seeing at the end. But considering the total Strange Days knockoff with these braindances, I'm guessing they just replaced the SQUID with large goggles? Is that what happened there? Anyways, it was a great teaser and I'm definitely intrigued. There's definitely an itch that needs to be scratched in this genre. Deus Ex/HR are both nice, but they're not quite what I want. The new Shadowrun looks like it's just as far off the mark but in the opposite direction of DE:HR. I just need to design my own game.

    Fawst on
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    Taranis
  • testsubject23testsubject23 King of No Sleep ZzzzzzzRegistered User regular
    Taranis wrote: »
    Drake wrote: »
    Eumerin wrote: »
    Anything involving a human mind though, no matter what they do with their bodies? I'd still see them as human, but that's not the important part here. They aren't objects. They wouldn't be "more like an object" no matter how much of their organic body they replace with technology.

    I'd just like to interject one quick comment here -

    iirc, cyberpsychosis as defined by the game setting is basically what happens when a person starts to replace so much of their meat with metal that they actually start to think of themselves as an object instead of a person.

    Haha, that does complicate matters. I'm unfamiliar with the setting, so I was mostly discussing cyberization in general.

    Interesting fact though. Do they truly see themselves as an object or just as no longer human/a machine? I feel that might be an important distinction. And is it a case of this always happening when someone replaces too much of their body, or a certain percentage of those that do?

    The whole idea of how psyberpsychosis works in this game reminds me of the idea that our consciousness resides within our bodies as a whole, not just the neurons or nervous system. I'm not super familiar with that concept but I do have the impression that it's backed up by some solid science.

    From what I've read, consciousness is most likely an emergence of both the brain's 'software' and 'hardware,' but not the nerves connecting to the limbs and organs themselves. Granted we don't know what exactly produces consciousness, or even what it is, but we have no reason to believe that it's tied to anything other than the brain itself. Of course losing limbs and organs would likely have a psychological impact, but as of yet there's no reason to believe that a part of our consciousness would be lost. I'm highly interested in this subject, so if you can find a link to an article referencing this concept I'd love to read it.

    The brain is definitely the seat of consciousness, but the body is such a connected system that there are definitely other biological factors which influence consciousness. For instance, in a theoretical brain-box scenario, you've eliminated adrenal glands, sexual organs/glands, etc - organs that produce hormones that definitely influence personality and behaviour. So who's to say how much losing one's physical body would actually affect ones identity? And that's not to mention the pure psychological changes resulting in such a drastic shift in self-image and how we're perceived by others.

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  • DrakeDrake Edgelord Trash Below the ecliptic plane.Registered User regular
    edited January 2013
    Taranis wrote: »
    Drake wrote: »
    Eumerin wrote: »
    Anything involving a human mind though, no matter what they do with their bodies? I'd still see them as human, but that's not the important part here. They aren't objects. They wouldn't be "more like an object" no matter how much of their organic body they replace with technology.

    I'd just like to interject one quick comment here -

    iirc, cyberpsychosis as defined by the game setting is basically what happens when a person starts to replace so much of their meat with metal that they actually start to think of themselves as an object instead of a person.

    Haha, that does complicate matters. I'm unfamiliar with the setting, so I was mostly discussing cyberization in general.

    Interesting fact though. Do they truly see themselves as an object or just as no longer human/a machine? I feel that might be an important distinction. And is it a case of this always happening when someone replaces too much of their body, or a certain percentage of those that do?

    The whole idea of how psyberpsychosis works in this game reminds me of the idea that our consciousness resides within our bodies as a whole, not just the neurons or nervous system. I'm not super familiar with that concept but I do have the impression that it's backed up by some solid science.

    From what I've read, consciousness is most likely an emergence of both the brain's 'software' and 'hardware,' but not the nerves connecting to the limbs and organs themselves. Granted we don't know what exactly produces consciousness, or even what it is, but we have no reason to believe that it's tied to anything other than the brain itself. Of course losing limbs and organs would likely have a psychological impact, but as of yet there's no reason to believe that a part of our consciousness would be lost. I'm highly interested in this subject, so if you can find a link to an article referencing this concept I'd love to read it.

    It's a concept I first remember encountering in the cyberpunk manga Gunnm aka Battle Angel Alita in the west. One of the most pervasive themes in the book is that the mind is a plaything of the body, and is exhibited in the changes of personality in Gally (and other cyborgs) as she changes her cyborg form throughout the books. Still, there is a core of selfness to Gally/Alita, despite the container her consciousness tends to inhabit, she always seeks out conflict.

    As far as losing part of our consciousness due to prosthetic augmentation, I don't think anyone sees that as a likely outcome. But we experience the world through our senses, we touch with our hands, we taste with our tongues, etc. These organs influence the perceptions we experience. So changing out these organs, enhancing or otherwise altering the electro-chemical process of our senses would likely impact how we perceive the world and ourselves. It's part of what is called the Mind-Body Problem of the interdisciplinary study of Neurophilosophy.

    Drake on
  • EumerinEumerin Registered User regular
    edited January 2013
    Totally off-topic so I'll spoiler this.
    Deckard was not a replicant. Period. I could probably write a thesis on how the film goes out of its way to prove to us that he's not. Instead I'll give this short reason, and IMHO, it's the only reason anyone would need:

    The police department would have to be part of a very large and detailed conspiracy in which they agreed to allow a Tyrell Corp Nexus model skinjob carte blanche in which to do police work. These guys hunt these things down and kill them on sight. In what world does that sort of ingrained prejudice just simply up and remove itself from the very nature of those officials? (It doesn't.) And why would those same officers EVER agree to a "pilot program" in which the end result is that they would one day be replaced by the very illegals they hunt down for a living? (They wouldn't.)

    Now, in some alternate universe, I'm sure there's a version of the film where Deckard-as-replicant actually works, but not a single version of the film that exists in this universe does.

    iirc, Ridley Scott says he is. Harrison Ford and the guy who wrote the script (I think - I know it's someone important to the storyline) say that he isn't.

    Take that as you will.

    Interesting fact though. Do they truly see themselves as an object or just as no longer human/a machine? I feel that might be an important distinction. And is it a case of this always happening when someone replaces too much of their body, or a certain percentage of those that do?

    The Interlock system (and Fuzion, which is basically a derivative of Interlock) used by the PnP game has an Empathy stat. In and of itself, it's used for interpersonal relation skills. But when you replace a part of yourself with a piece of cyberware, then you start chipping away at your Empathy stat. Get your eyes replaced? You lose a little bit of your Empathy stat. Get your arm replaced, and you lose a big chunk of it. Counselling can dampen the impact to a certain extent, but that takes time and money. And if you tear out the cybernetics and replace them with cloned meat parts, then you've got to get counselling before you get back that Empathy that you lost.

    Or in other words, don't let the heavily borged out Combat Solo perform the delicate negotiations with the guy who's got something you need. And try not to antagonize him. One of the books that R. Tal published for Cyberpunk was called "Listen Up, You Primitive Screwheads!" and it was all about how the GM could mess with his or her players in Cyberpunk (in part to keep the players from running roughshod over the GM, and in part to keep the players properly paranoid). I don't know if "temporary negative modifiers to the Solo's Empathy stat when they get hit with an emotionally draining RP scene" was in that book, but it would be something that fit...

    Eumerin on
  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    I just want to say that while we have gotten a little bit off topic, I am still enjoying the hell out of all of these posts. :D

    A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
    Xenogear_0001
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