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Cyberpunk 2077 - It Can't Get Darker Than Night City, Right?

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Posts

  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    Bigity wrote: »
    Dixon wrote: »
    Maybe things like financial institutions don’t have it as severe as the red tape on releases is strict enough it actually prevents crunch from being effective.

    Negative, at least in my experience with financial institutions.

    They absolutely have a huge year-end data format event where the entire year is put through a strainer, audited, and cataloged. I am an IT guy by trade but I am very familiar with the hellish wringer I saw the other side of the building go through for End of Year.

    The software support people for these institutions end up working 12-18 hour days for weeks leading up to it, and EOY itself is all-hands-on-deck for the banks and the software providers.

    This does not include FDIC Audits, which is another nasty time for banks, especially with rule changes.

    Sound a lot like crunch time? It absolutely is. And it's ingrained pretty firmly in corporate culture.

    Yup, crunch time is just a normal thing sometimes. Audit times, tax season, new software deployments, etc.

    But I agree that alot of it can be avoided, and attempts should be made to do so effectively.


    Personally, if I worked somewhere that required it all the time, I'd be looking for work somewhere else.


    OTOH, I never got to tell my flight commander I wasn't going to come in after hours or on weekends to make the project deadline because the general wanted it done.

    That's why crunch is kind of a shitty term for this. It is this vague catch-all that encompasses everything from reasonable expectations like "We need to take quarterly stock this weekend and are going to need people to work overtime." to abuse like "You will be sleeping in the offices this quarter to ship this game." when those are two very different situations. Those are far different situations.

    ElvenshaeCommander ZoomBloodySlothMoridin889finnithFencingsaxElldrenBigityMrVyngaardHeir
  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    edited May 19
    Gaddez wrote: »
    Axen wrote: »
    There is a difference between "We've done all we could, but not we have to buckle down and finish the project" type of crunch and Bioware Magic "Okay you have 12 months to build a game from scratch" type of crunch.

    The first can and does happen in just about any industry (seriously ask a postal worker about Christmas). The second happens due to gross mismanagement and seems fairly systemic in the AAA sphere.

    The disgusting part about "bioware magic" regarding their most recent title is that there wasn't a need for crunch at all since that game began development in 2012.

    Bioware increasingly seems like one of those small companies that fostered a work ethic among its founders that became toxic as they left and the company grew. Or more accurately, the culture was always toxic but more easy to tolerate if you were one of the people who helped develop it. If anything, EA's capital investments might have just have prolonged the problem.

    That's also a real worry with CD Projekt. They do a lot of things right on the customer side, but that's going to be hard to sustain if they churn through their workforce.

    Phillishere on
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  • HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    schuss wrote: »
    Crunch is a purely destructive force and you lose more in rework than you gain in productivity.
    Self-driven crunch is fine (as you're excited about a problem and want to finish), but mandated slows down regular work too as if you're crunching it doesn't matter if you work quicker, you still have to be there.

    I just know that is not actually the case.

    I don't work with code but with video. Crunching a month has been the difference between getting a video out or not getting a video out.

    Whatever study that is coming from must be laden with a hefty amount of asterisks dictating the very specific conditions that gave them that result.

    PSN: Honkalot
    BigityLanlaorn
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    That crunch sometimes produces results is not a justification for the physical and psychological toll that crunch takes on workers.

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  • HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    That crunch sometimes produces results is not a justification for the physical and psychological toll that crunch takes on workers.

    I've never argued that once, just for the record.

    I'm saying that I've heard the argument that it's purely destructive to end result and I gripe with that because it's not accurate. At least it is not accurate for many skews of professions.

    It's inhumane working conditions and should be fought, but it does make results come out in the end. At least often. Otherwise it would not be as common a problem as it is.

    PSN: Honkalot
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Framing it as "well but sometimes it produces good things" is not an argument I want to hear about exploitative work practices, because that's a defense of those exploitative work practices even if you don't intend it to be as such.

    wpyz0Y5.png
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  • HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Framing it as "well but sometimes it produces good things" is not an argument I want to hear about exploitative work practices, because that's a defense of those exploitative work practices even if you don't intend it to be as such.

    ...

    Fighting it with a false premise is what I'm objecting to.

    PSN: Honkalot
    Elvenshae
  • BloodySlothBloodySloth Registered User regular
    If you're trying to formulate an argument that cuts to what might actually matter to a heartless executive who only cares about the bottom line, coming at the problem with something like "crunch doesn't even work, look at these studies," that can pretty quickly get shot down by someone who anecdotally sees it work, or believes they see it work, and can then promptly dismiss your concerns. It's why crunch is a thing. The "two people working 40 hours a week is better than one person working 90" bit only makes sense if you can find a person as familiar with the material as your 90 hour guy to bring in temp.

    Any regulatory action on this sort of behavior by companies is not going to depend on whether or not it's a practice that results in a finished product faster, anyway. It's all about the human stories. It always has been. Convincing people that the human suffering is actually happening to relatable individuals instead of a vague group of "others" goes a long, long way into spurring legal action. People think that they're intelligent and are convinced by cold facts, but a lot of their major decision making is driven by their stupid hearts.

  • ZekZek Registered User regular
    I've worked in web development for 10 years, and literally never in my life have I been forced into anything resembling "crunch" like I've heard about in game dev. There are times where we're pushing for a deadline or coordinating a launch and it's stressful because there's a lot going on during the day, but it still all happens within normal working hours. I don't want to say my experience is the standard everywhere, but my main point is that it's not normal or "just the way things are" in software development in general. If your job forces you to do that and you have marketable skills, you should be looking.

    PolaritieFencingsaxCorsiniqwer12
  • manwiththemachinegunmanwiththemachinegun METAL GEAR?! Registered User regular
    Oh hey is there Cyberpunk new...

    Goddamn it.

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Honk wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Framing it as "well but sometimes it produces good things" is not an argument I want to hear about exploitative work practices, because that's a defense of those exploitative work practices even if you don't intend it to be as such.

    ...

    Fighting it with a false premise is what I'm objecting to.

    Are you saying it is a false premise that the amount of human suffering that occurs due to this crunch culture is not worth what is produced?

    wpyz0Y5.png
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  • schussschuss Registered User regular
    Honk wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    That crunch sometimes produces results is not a justification for the physical and psychological toll that crunch takes on workers.

    I've never argued that once, just for the record.

    I'm saying that I've heard the argument that it's purely destructive to end result and I gripe with that because it's not accurate. At least it is not accurate for many skews of professions.

    It's inhumane working conditions and should be fought, but it does make results come out in the end. At least often. Otherwise it would not be as common a problem as it is.

    If it's work that's highly repetitive and requires mostly you to be a warm body there, crunch CAN work. Thought work doesn't work that way. Also, over a 1-2 year horizon you lose more from burnout/toxic culture than you gain for an individual effort.
    Work smarter, not harder isn't just a saying, it's the difference between a company with a future vs one waiting to implode.

    FencingsaxHonk
  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    Oh hey is there Cyberpunk new...

    Goddamn it.

    Yes.
    And appropriately to the genre, it is bad and depressing.

  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    Oh hey is there Cyberpunk new...

    Goddamn it.

    Cyberpunk thread: Civil War

    (the discussion)

    Bobble
  • ApostateApostate Registered User regular
    Oh hey is there Cyberpunk new...

    Goddamn it.

    No kidding.

    Seriously people there are other threads you can Debate and/or Discourse about this.

    Moridin889Mr RayKanaElldrenHeir
  • SoundsPlushSoundsPlush yup, back. Registered User regular
    Apostate wrote: »
    Seriously people there are other threads you can Debate and/or Discourse about this.

    The news is a Jason Schreier article on Friday after CDPR approached him for an interview about crunch and the development of 2077, so that's why you're seeing it here. If you only want to see substantive game news, you're going to have to wait for E3 and then probably over six months after that dose because everyone knows the game isn't coming out this year.
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Are you saying it is a false premise that the amount of human suffering that occurs due to this crunch culture is not worth what is produced?

    He's pretty clearly stated he thinks its inhumane several times and that the premise he's disputing is that crunch is always a net loss in productivity.

    s7Imn5J.png
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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Maybe in terms of short-term productivity as defined about completing a single project, but not in long-term productivity of the workers themselves, who suffer from burnout due to the crunch and quit the industry while still young and theoretically able to be productive under more humane working conditions for some time more.

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    Phillishere
  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    Apostate wrote: »
    Oh hey is there Cyberpunk new...

    Goddamn it.

    No kidding.

    Seriously people there are other threads you can Debate and/or Discourse about this.

    I mean, there used to be. But, without one, industry talk pops up in the game-specific threads, whether you like it or not. Them's the breaks.

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  • DixonDixon Screwed...possibly doomed CanadaRegistered User regular
    I also don’t agree with the comment about management being the issue.

    If you work with other companies sometimes you are at their mercy. They get an offer from a competitor to do it quicker, maybe something existing fails. Lots of different reasons for crunch. I think that’s the better option then your company losing business and everyone losing their jobs.

    It’s terrible in the gaming industry though it seems, like I said before months at a time is crazy.

  • jungleroomxjungleroomx And I said, hol up Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Framing it as "well but sometimes it produces good things" is not an argument I want to hear about exploitative work practices, because that's a defense of those exploitative work practices even if you don't intend it to be as such.

    I did completely volunteer overtime to land help get a massive new contract off the ground.

    Overnights.

    I got paid nearly double (and I'm salaried) for my effort, an additional 5% boost in salary on top of the standard 5% for first year, and the company got a sweet, big, and profitable client in the process.

    Just because crunch time seems bad and some companies are exploitive of it doesn't mean it cant end up being a boon if things in other parts of the deal get confuckulated.

    schuss
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    That's not how crunch works in the games industry and I wish y'all would stop making excuses for those at the top who are treating the people actually making these games as disposable.

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  • HonkHonk Honk is this poster. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Honk wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Framing it as "well but sometimes it produces good things" is not an argument I want to hear about exploitative work practices, because that's a defense of those exploitative work practices even if you don't intend it to be as such.

    ...

    Fighting it with a false premise is what I'm objecting to.

    Are you saying it is a false premise that the amount of human suffering that occurs due to this crunch culture is not worth what is produced?

    This takes too many turns for me to feel comfortable answering yes or no so I'll say: I do not think that it is worth what is produced.

    All I'm saying is I would like to come at it from a point of argument that crunch is inhumane. I don't want to come at it from a point of argument that "it's net negative for effectivity" because the manager will then say "well we shipped, and we wouldn't have shipped without crunch, so clearly you don't know what you're talking about".

    Constant crunch year-year-year I would guess is ineffective. Months prior to release I know from experience is effective. It's also not fun to be the worker, which I often am.

    I'll cede that there are other threads and leave it here. I just want you to see that I have not once suggested it is "worth it" and not once have I been "making excuses".

    PSN: Honkalot
    BloodySlothElvenshae
  • TychoCelchuuuTychoCelchuuu PIGEON IndiaRegistered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Framing it as "well but sometimes it produces good things" is not an argument I want to hear about exploitative work practices, because that's a defense of those exploitative work practices even if you don't intend it to be as such.

    I did completely volunteer overtime to land help get a massive new contract off the ground.

    Overnights.

    I got paid nearly double (and I'm salaried) for my effort, an additional 5% boost in salary on top of the standard 5% for first year, and the company got a sweet, big, and profitable client in the process.

    Just because crunch time seems bad and some companies are exploitive of it doesn't mean it cant end up being a boon if things in other parts of the deal get confuckulated.
    Meanwhile plenty of game devs get laid off after they ship a game.

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  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    It would be different if crunch were a very occasional thing, say only employed during rocky development to make a final push that would fix things up.

    But when pretty much every big game involves crunch, something's gone very wrong in the biz.

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  • schussschuss Registered User regular
    Relying on crunch also prevents formation of sustainable practices as when you have it as a tool you can always abuse it to meet certain directives. Then employees counter-game it by carefully controlling scope/delivery progress to prevent being "crunched" on a particular item or just slow down their work to prevent burnout instead of prioritizing efficiency (as it doesn't matter if you always crunch).
    Self driven crunch is a different animal entirely as you have agency and have chosen to do those hours for a monetary, status or personal gratification reward.
    Crunch also means that you're one crisis (natural disasters,key feature change, opportunity) from complete failure as you're burning your Goodwill and extra potential hours just to be normal.
    Most modern practices around software are explicitly anti-crunch, with the only spaces that it's acceptable being startups where you're essentially trading that time for equity. Continuous, sustainable delivery is the general goal, as no software is ever "done".

    CampyFencingsaxCorsiniCommander ZoomMoridin889MrVyngaard
  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    The more I hear about it, the more inclined I am towards workplace rules against self-driven crunch too, especially in a workplace that already has a poisonous pervasiveness of reliance on crunchy.

    Granted, my experience is being overworked in office environments that don't produce software, but it's a little alarming. I'm sorry about your breakup, or your divorce, or the loss of your pet, or a loss in your family. Hopefully there are mechanisms in place for taking personal time if possible (says the person who hates his job, but never takes vacations). I understand why you might want to throw yourself into your work. But if there's the possibility that channeling sorrow into work will reflect on your coworkers, who frankly need more protection, not less, from crunch, it may be necessary for you to take that "losing yourself in your work" somewhere else--if not home, then at least somewhere it doesn't lead to unrealistic expectations for everyone else.

    But I imagine that's a very rare issue to have. The last time I had a distinctive family tragedy, I carried on working the next day normally--I didn't work harder to distract myself. But I'm also emotionally dead inside, so...

    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
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  • ED!ED! Registered User regular
    Oh hey is there Cyberpunk new...

    Goddamn it.

    They got me too. "118 new posts. . and weeks away from E3! Leaks!"
    If you only want to see substantive game news, you're going to have to wait for E3 and then probably over six months after that dose because everyone knows the game isn't coming out this year.

    It takes 20 muscles to smile, but only one to believe. . .the heart. Just believe!


    "Get the hell out of me" - [ex]girlfriend
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  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    I think Crunch is one of those things that should be only done in short spans (2-3 months tops) followed by healthy compensation to the employee's for going above and beyond what is reasonable.

    Something akin to giving the workers a week or two of paid vacation and a signifigant bonus.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
    jungleroomxElvenshae
  • DonnictonDonnicton Hey it's me, your old pal Movie Sonic - let me in. LEMME IN. Registered User regular
    ED! wrote: »
    Oh hey is there Cyberpunk new...

    Goddamn it.

    They got me too. "118 new posts. . and weeks away from E3! Leaks!"
    If you only want to see substantive game news, you're going to have to wait for E3 and then probably over six months after that dose because everyone knows the game isn't coming out this year.

    It takes 20 muscles to smile, but only one to believe. . .the heart. Just believe!

    I'm sorry but I replaced my heart months ago with a more efficient cybernetic one that will never tire.

    Moridin889
  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Quantronic Dreamgirl Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    I think Crunch is one of those things that should be only done in short spans (2-3 months tops) followed by healthy compensation to the employee's for going above and beyond what is reasonable.

    Something akin to giving the workers a week or two of paid vacation and a signifigant bonus.

    You mean working on the road map content on a strict time table or getting laid off if the game doesn't reach it's review/sales targets in the opening week?

    Because right now the idea of fair compensation for crunch in the industry is laughable.

    Heck you have stuff like CD:PR responding to leaks about their crunch with "This approach to making games is not for everyone,".

  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Registered User regular
    ...I guess there's not an unclosed Witcher thread around these parts? Ah well.

    Anyway, I finally fired up Witcher 3 and I'm really digging it. I was kind of worried since the acclaimed Witcher 2 was (to me) death by a thousand paper cuts annoyances, but Witcher 3 managed to fix everything that bugged me. Less horrible combat, better plot, better inventory, now only the people who give you quests and stuff have names, etc.

    Quick question, I just got out of the sticks and into a castle, where I'm getting stomped repeatedly by this Gwent player in the courtyard. I need to pick up more cards before I can beat him, right?

    At any rate, now that the Witcher 3 is actually good, I'm looking forward to Cyberpunk 20whatever.

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  • schussschuss Registered User regular
    Gaddez wrote: »
    I think Crunch is one of those things that should be only done in short spans (2-3 months tops) followed by healthy compensation to the employee's for going above and beyond what is reasonable.

    Something akin to giving the workers a week or two of paid vacation and a signifigant bonus.

    Or you could schedule properly and not bust up people's lives.

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  • MassenaMassena Registered User regular
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    ...I guess there's not an unclosed Witcher thread around these parts? Ah well.

    Anyway, I finally fired up Witcher 3 and I'm really digging it. I was kind of worried since the acclaimed Witcher 2 was (to me) death by a thousand paper cuts annoyances, but Witcher 3 managed to fix everything that bugged me. Less horrible combat, better plot, better inventory, now only the people who give you quests and stuff have names, etc.

    Quick question, I just got out of the sticks and into a castle, where I'm getting stomped repeatedly by this Gwent player in the courtyard. I need to pick up more cards before I can beat him, right?

    At any rate, now that the Witcher 3 is actually good, I'm looking forward to Cyberpunk 20whatever.

    I had a similar experience. I could see what they were going for with 2 and they MOSTLY got there, but the jank along the way made it a struggle to love. 3 was a triple A product from top to bottom (probably the best RPG I've played).

    If you're going the Gwent route (and why wouldn't you?), picking up cards from EVERY innkeeper you meet is absolutely the way to go. I think there's actually a PA comic about it somewhere, but it really help make sure you get enough variety in your deck(s) to take on some of the tougher players without needing everything to fall perfectly.

    2077 and Mount and Blade 2 are the white whales out there for me: I know they're coming, I'm pretty sure they'll be my jam, but it's anyone's guess as to when. Patience is a virtue (I tell myself).

  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    schuss wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    I think Crunch is one of those things that should be only done in short spans (2-3 months tops) followed by healthy compensation to the employee's for going above and beyond what is reasonable.

    Something akin to giving the workers a week or two of paid vacation and a signifigant bonus.

    Or you could schedule properly and not bust up people's lives.

    It's like crunch is a shitty practice that provides cover for shitty management. Which is why any actual arguments against crunch just aren't going to work. Ending crunch is easy. Ending crunch while still making shipping dates would require actual work. Plus from a management standpoint crunch obviously works since the only criteria it's judged on is whether the game shipped on time.

    FencingsaxschussBloodySlothMoridin889Corsini
  • schussschuss Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    schuss wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    I think Crunch is one of those things that should be only done in short spans (2-3 months tops) followed by healthy compensation to the employee's for going above and beyond what is reasonable.

    Something akin to giving the workers a week or two of paid vacation and a signifigant bonus.

    Or you could schedule properly and not bust up people's lives.

    It's like crunch is a shitty practice that provides cover for shitty management. Which is why any actual arguments against crunch just aren't going to work. Ending crunch is easy. Ending crunch while still making shipping dates would require actual work. Plus from a management standpoint crunch obviously works since the only criteria it's judged on is whether the game shipped on time.

    More accurately, avoiding crunch means management has to do their job properly AND take the heat on why you're not publishing a release date.

    FencingsaxBloodySlothDarkPrimusRchanenMoridin889Corsini
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    schuss wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    schuss wrote: »
    Gaddez wrote: »
    I think Crunch is one of those things that should be only done in short spans (2-3 months tops) followed by healthy compensation to the employee's for going above and beyond what is reasonable.

    Something akin to giving the workers a week or two of paid vacation and a signifigant bonus.

    Or you could schedule properly and not bust up people's lives.

    It's like crunch is a shitty practice that provides cover for shitty management. Which is why any actual arguments against crunch just aren't going to work. Ending crunch is easy. Ending crunch while still making shipping dates would require actual work. Plus from a management standpoint crunch obviously works since the only criteria it's judged on is whether the game shipped on time.

    More accurately, avoiding crunch means management has to do their job properly AND take the heat on why you're not publishing a release date.

    And that's not even getting into those companies that run crunch type hours year round regardless of where the project is at.

    Fencingsaxschuss
  • jammujammu Never-Ending, Never Alone Registered User regular
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    ...I guess there's not an unclosed Witcher thread around these parts? Ah well.

    Anyway, I finally fired up Witcher 3 and I'm really digging it. I was kind of worried since the acclaimed Witcher 2 was (to me) death by a thousand paper cuts annoyances, but Witcher 3 managed to fix everything that bugged me. Less horrible combat, better plot, better inventory, now only the people who give you quests and stuff have names, etc.

    Quick question, I just got out of the sticks and into a castle, where I'm getting stomped repeatedly by this Gwent player in the courtyard. I need to pick up more cards before I can beat him, right?

    At any rate, now that the Witcher 3 is actually good, I'm looking forward to Cyberpunk 20whatever.

    The Gwent player in garden has way better deck than you. It's doable, but it takes lot of skill and lot of luck.

    Ww8FAMg.jpg
  • kaidkaid Registered User regular
    I am curious there is such a big blow back about this. It has been known for years that CDprojekt tends to pay their workers badly and work them like wageslaves. I have known a number of people who had job offers with them that they turned down because they did not care to work in a video game sweatshop regardless how fun the games they make are. This is also one of the reasons I also kinda felt guilty for liking witcher 3 so much.

  • 3clipse3clipse I will build a labyrinth to house the cheese Registered User regular
    This year more than any previous, people seem to be paying more attention to the working conditions in the game industry. Partially because there have been a number of high profile cases of absolute nonsense working conditions in dev studios in the past year, partially because the general social consciousness and discussion of this stuff is on the uptick again.

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  • LilnoobsLilnoobs Alpha Queue Registered User regular
    I would argue it's part of a larger labor movement across the country (at least in the US), with teacher strikes, adjunct unions, uber/lyft strikes. It's time to swing that pendulum hard back to worker rights, and game dev is certainly part of that.

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