[Industry Thread] I shall call him...Mini Wii.

Lorek

Were there any numbers released for how well the Xbox for $99 + Live Subscription idea panned out? I'm wondering if this is how the Xbox is going to try and make a console that costs a lot (bigger numbers, packed in kinect 2.0, etc...) but still needs to compete with the Wii U or previous gen console price points.

Henroid

lowlylowlycook wrote: »

Well the interesting thing is that traditionally the dominant console has indeed sold into the next generation while others have not. This was especially true of the PS2.

This time it seems like the Wii is limping in to the finish line so there is a bit of a different dynamic. Also Nintendo decided to launch first which is a bit different.


I don't think that any of the console makers can take anything for granted going into next gen. I'm very, very interested to see how much MS and Sony think they can get away with price wise.

Yeah but this console generation has lasted longer. If you account for the regular span of console generations, the Wii has sold just fine beyond the shared "finish line" that traditionally occurs.

cloudeagle

Lorek wrote: »

Were there any numbers released for how well the Xbox for $99 + Live Subscription idea panned out? I'm wondering if this is how the Xbox is going to try and make a console that costs a lot (bigger numbers, packed in kinect 2.0, etc...) but still needs to compete with the Wii U or previous gen console price points.

There haven't been any figures, but considering the program keeps spreading I'm guessing it's doing pretty well.

Ragnar Dragonfyre

Dragkonias wrote: »

GnomeTank wrote: »

Dragkonias wrote: »

That said I do wonder what the next "big thing" will be next gen.

You know the thing that one developer comes out and does well and we love it. Then everyone else copies it and runs it into the ground and we hate it.

So essentially "What will the next generations third person cover based shooter be?"

Pretty much.

I'm thinking environmental damage will be a big thing this gen.

It better fucking be. Red Faction did it back in the N64 days. It's a shame it's such an overlooked feature. I realize it's very resource intensive, but so many games would be improved by it.

Hell, I'd actually buy a Dragonball Z game that had realistic environmental damage... and as much as I (used to) like DBZ, I've never bought one of their games.

Ninja Snarl P

Pretty sad to think that Red Faction on the PS2 had environmental damage, yet most games these days still have invincible sheet metal less than a centimeter thick or environmental rubble that can stop battletanks dead in their tracks. Could definitely do with some advancements in that department.

cloudeagle

Ninja Snarl P wrote: »

Pretty sad to think that Red Faction on the PS2 had environmental damage, yet most games these days still have invincible sheet metal less than a centimeter thick or environmental rubble that can stop battletanks dead in their tracks. Could definitely do with some advancements in that department.

This pretty much sums up why the new generation of more advanced systems didn't automatically inspire more than a handful of instances of fantastic new gameplay mechanics that wouldn't have been possible with the old tech, and why the next generation won't either. The publishers find it much easier and cheaper to stick with the same ole stuff.

lowlylowlycook

Ninja Snarl P wrote: »

Pretty sad to think that Red Faction on the PS2 had environmental damage, yet most games these days still have invincible sheet metal less than a centimeter thick or environmental rubble that can stop battletanks dead in their tracks. Could definitely do with some advancements in that department.

Well if you want to have a corridor shooter then you have to make the corridors out of something. And you probably want to make a corridor shooter so you can show off all your art assets properly and not wast any effort.

Ragnar Dragonfyre

lowlylowlycook wrote: »

Ninja Snarl P wrote: »

Pretty sad to think that Red Faction on the PS2 had environmental damage, yet most games these days still have invincible sheet metal less than a centimeter thick or environmental rubble that can stop battletanks dead in their tracks. Could definitely do with some advancements in that department.

Well if you want to have a corridor shooter then you have to make the corridors out of something. And you probably want to make a corridor shooter so you can show off all your art assets properly and not wast any effort.

Kinda how like a lot of writers don't like killing off their characters, right?

Either way, as a guy who's currently churning out assets for his iPhone game, making your assets explode is incredibly fun. So I don't buy into such an excuse :P

LoveIsUnity

lowlylowlycook wrote: »

Ninja Snarl P wrote: »

Pretty sad to think that Red Faction on the PS2 had environmental damage, yet most games these days still have invincible sheet metal less than a centimeter thick or environmental rubble that can stop battletanks dead in their tracks. Could definitely do with some advancements in that department.

Well if you want to have a corridor shooter then you have to make the corridors out of something. And you probably want to make a corridor shooter so you can show off all your art assets properly and not wast any effort.

The moral here is to not make corridor shooters, right?

SmokeStacks

lowlylowlycook wrote: »

Ninja Snarl P wrote: »

Pretty sad to think that Red Faction on the PS2 had environmental damage, yet most games these days still have invincible sheet metal less than a centimeter thick or environmental rubble that can stop battletanks dead in their tracks. Could definitely do with some advancements in that department.

Well if you want to have a corridor shooter then you have to make the corridors out of something. And you probably want to make a corridor shooter so you can show off all your art assets properly and not wast any effort.

That was the nice thing about Red Faction - the player could pretty much add corridors any time they wanted to.

Red Faction Guerilla and the occasional Battlefield have had "environmental destruction", but as far as I know they limit it to just buildings. It's been a while since we've seen a game that lets you destroy terrain the same way that Red Faction did. It had issues, but being able to blow your way around a locked door sure felt nice in a FPS... which is a genre where a simple locked wooden hollow core door can stop a 6' tall 250lb space marine carrying a shotgun, a rocket launcher, grenades, etc.

That said, I am sure it would be a complete nightmare for developers trying to sync damage on that level in a modern multiplayer game.

skeldare

LoveIsUnity wrote: »

lowlylowlycook wrote: »

Ninja Snarl P wrote: »

Pretty sad to think that Red Faction on the PS2 had environmental damage, yet most games these days still have invincible sheet metal less than a centimeter thick or environmental rubble that can stop battletanks dead in their tracks. Could definitely do with some advancements in that department.

Well if you want to have a corridor shooter then you have to make the corridors out of something. And you probably want to make a corridor shooter so you can show off all your art assets properly and not wast any effort.

The moral here is to not make corridor shooters, right?

Screw corridor shooters, we need more corridor RPGs.

Henroid

skeldare wrote: »

LoveIsUnity wrote: »

lowlylowlycook wrote: »

Ninja Snarl P wrote: »

Pretty sad to think that Red Faction on the PS2 had environmental damage, yet most games these days still have invincible sheet metal less than a centimeter thick or environmental rubble that can stop battletanks dead in their tracks. Could definitely do with some advancements in that department.

Well if you want to have a corridor shooter then you have to make the corridors out of something. And you probably want to make a corridor shooter so you can show off all your art assets properly and not wast any effort.

The moral here is to not make corridor shooters, right?

Screw corridor shooters, we need more corridor RPGs.

Hey, corridor RPGs are called "dungeon crawlers." And they're great.

OH WAIT YOU MEAN FINAL FANTASY 13 CARRY ON.

Spoit

skeldare wrote: »

LoveIsUnity wrote: »

lowlylowlycook wrote: »

Ninja Snarl P wrote: »

Pretty sad to think that Red Faction on the PS2 had environmental damage, yet most games these days still have invincible sheet metal less than a centimeter thick or environmental rubble that can stop battletanks dead in their tracks. Could definitely do with some advancements in that department.

Well if you want to have a corridor shooter then you have to make the corridors out of something. And you probably want to make a corridor shooter so you can show off all your art assets properly and not wast any effort.

The moral here is to not make corridor shooters, right?

Screw corridor shooters, we need more corridor RPGs.

So...bioware RPGs?

lowlylowlycook

Ragnar Dragonfyre wrote: »

lowlylowlycook wrote: »

Ninja Snarl P wrote: »

Pretty sad to think that Red Faction on the PS2 had environmental damage, yet most games these days still have invincible sheet metal less than a centimeter thick or environmental rubble that can stop battletanks dead in their tracks. Could definitely do with some advancements in that department.

Well if you want to have a corridor shooter then you have to make the corridors out of something. And you probably want to make a corridor shooter so you can show off all your art assets properly and not wast any effort.

Kinda how like a lot of writers don't like killing off their characters, right?

Maybe. How many millions do writers spend to create characters?

Spoit

lowlylowlycook wrote: »

Ninja Snarl P wrote: »

Pretty sad to think that Red Faction on the PS2 had environmental damage, yet most games these days still have invincible sheet metal less than a centimeter thick or environmental rubble that can stop battletanks dead in their tracks. Could definitely do with some advancements in that department.

Well if you want to have a corridor shooter then you have to make the corridors out of something. And you probably want to make a corridor shooter so you can show off all your art assets properly and not wast any effort.

I thought half the reason for corridors was because it limited the amount that needed to be rendered at a time by having tightly controlled sight-lines. Because RAM RAM RAM

lowlylowlycook

Spoit wrote: »

lowlylowlycook wrote: »

Ninja Snarl P wrote: »

Pretty sad to think that Red Faction on the PS2 had environmental damage, yet most games these days still have invincible sheet metal less than a centimeter thick or environmental rubble that can stop battletanks dead in their tracks. Could definitely do with some advancements in that department.

Well if you want to have a corridor shooter then you have to make the corridors out of something. And you probably want to make a corridor shooter so you can show off all your art assets properly and not wast any effort.

I thought half the reason for corridors was because it limited the amount that needed to be rendered at a time by having tightly controlled sight-lines. Because RAM RAM RAM

But they go beyond that to make the game world closely resemble a single corridor so that they don't have to make art assets that the player might not see.

Also as far as I'm aware long sightlines would more quickly swamp the GPU rather than available RAM. But I could be wrong.

Stormwatcher

Also destructible terrain messes up with your level design. I mean, DooM levels wouldn't be so awesomely designed if you could just blast all the walls from start to finish.

lowlylowlycook

I think it would be worth it for a Morrowind speed run where they start by drinking and brewing potions and then just destroy the island.

Couscous

Stormwatcher wrote: »

Also destructible terrain messes up with your level design. I mean, DooM levels wouldn't be so awesomely designed if you could just blast all the walls from start to finish.

That is one of the many problems that Metal Gear Solid: Rising had.

In Kojima's own words, Rising was meant to be "stupid and thoughtless" fun. The ability to cut anything and everything with a katana was a large part of this. In previous demos, we watched Raiden dismember men at all angles, as well as cut elevated objects to crush enemies below. It didn't work. Well, technically the mechanic was fine -- the slice-and-dice physics were quite the accomplishment after a year of tech tinkering. The problem with cutting in-game geometry is that it conflicts with a lot of design ideas. Think about it: As a developer, you can't limit the player when he or she can just carve through the world. There would be no guidance. This was the primary problem with Rising, and certainly not the last.

Donnicton

Henroid wrote: »

Haha right? Like suddenly that promise is looking pretty fucking great!

It's not hard to fuck up the Free-to-Play price structure. The key is to not nickel-and-dime your fucking consumers. I have yet to see the list and price tags but that helmet thing is a bad, bad first impression. F2P doesn't work because the consumers are idiots that will buy anything, it is not a ticket to do whatever you want. It is a carefully planned out thing. Granted some aspects do nickel-and-dime (I personally can't stand putting a price tag on chat functions), but for the most part I get why some shit has to be paid into.

To follow up on this, Bioware announced the opening of their Cartel Market by e-mail today. Here's an initial list of items you can purchase with the cartel coins.

http://dulfy.net/2012/10/23/swtor-cartel-market-items/

The price breakdown for coins themselves appears to be as follows:

450CartelCoins
$4.99 USD

1050CartelCoins
$9.99 USD

2400CartelCoins
$19.99 USD

5500CartelCoins
$39.99 USD

Jageto

Regarding BioWare RPGs, looks like DA3 is going next-gen and being pushed to 2014.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/11/28/dragon-age-iii-shifts-to-next-gen-aiming-for-2014

Commodore75

Couscous wrote: »

Stormwatcher wrote: »

Also destructible terrain messes up with your level design. I mean, DooM levels wouldn't be so awesomely designed if you could just blast all the walls from start to finish.

That is one of the many problems that Metal Gear Solid: Rising had.

In Kojima's own words, Rising was meant to be "stupid and thoughtless" fun. The ability to cut anything and everything with a katana was a large part of this. In previous demos, we watched Raiden dismember men at all angles, as well as cut elevated objects to crush enemies below. It didn't work. Well, technically the mechanic was fine -- the slice-and-dice physics were quite the accomplishment after a year of tech tinkering. The problem with cutting in-game geometry is that it conflicts with a lot of design ideas. Think about it: As a developer, you can't limit the player when he or she can just carve through the world. There would be no guidance. This was the primary problem with Rising, and certainly not the last.

I don't understand how that would be too much of a problem in a Kinect game. Aren't most of those on rails?

[Stealth edit]
Not a flame bait. Just saying that I doubt too many would complain if Rising prevented the Player Can Destroy The Narrative problem by making it On Rails.

Maddoc

I'm pretty sure putting it on rails would ruin roughly the entire concept of being able to cut anything and everything.

Dritz

It would defiantly require some serious rethinking of game design but that kind of stuff doesn't seem insurmountable. In other media characters are not quite as limited, though I suppose a book or movie is essentially 'on rails'.

Spoit

Jageto wrote: »

Regarding BioWare RPGs, looks like DA3 is going next-gen and being pushed to 2014.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/11/28/dragon-age-iii-shifts-to-next-gen-aiming-for-2014

Not a huge surprise. I'm sure most games in development past this upcoming spring rush are seriously considering it

Dragkonias

Commodore75 wrote: »

Couscous wrote: »

Stormwatcher wrote: »

Also destructible terrain messes up with your level design. I mean, DooM levels wouldn't be so awesomely designed if you could just blast all the walls from start to finish.

That is one of the many problems that Metal Gear Solid: Rising had.

In Kojima's own words, Rising was meant to be "stupid and thoughtless" fun. The ability to cut anything and everything with a katana was a large part of this. In previous demos, we watched Raiden dismember men at all angles, as well as cut elevated objects to crush enemies below. It didn't work. Well, technically the mechanic was fine -- the slice-and-dice physics were quite the accomplishment after a year of tech tinkering. The problem with cutting in-game geometry is that it conflicts with a lot of design ideas. Think about it: As a developer, you can't limit the player when he or she can just carve through the world. There would be no guidance. This was the primary problem with Rising, and certainly not the last.

I don't understand how that would be too much of a problem in a Kinect game. Aren't most of those on rails?

[Stealth edit]
Not a flame bait. Just saying that I doubt too many would complain if Rising prevented the Player Can Destroy The Narrative problem by making it On Rails.

Putting that kind of action game on rails doesn't make sense.

Synthesis

Henroid wrote: »

lowlylowlycook wrote: »

Well the interesting thing is that traditionally the dominant console has indeed sold into the next generation while others have not. This was especially true of the PS2.

This time it seems like the Wii is limping in to the finish line so there is a bit of a different dynamic. Also Nintendo decided to launch first which is a bit different.


I don't think that any of the console makers can take anything for granted going into next gen. I'm very, very interested to see how much MS and Sony think they can get away with price wise.

Yeah but this console generation has lasted longer. If you account for the regular span of console generations, the Wii has sold just fine beyond the shared "finish line" that traditionally occurs.

In that case, all three have, so it's not too helpful I guess.

Grimthwacker

Speaking of shooters, Splash Damage released a teaser for their new Free-to-Play PC shooter "Dirty Bomb".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0p_bQ5jIyNo
Coming from somebody who loved the hell out of Brink while it lasted I hope this gets received well, and more importantly that the game is actually playable when it releases. It looks like they're salvaging some ideas and the general style from Brink, so the SMART system had better be there in some form.

Skull2185

SMART was the only bright spot in Brink.

I wouldn't hold my breath expecting Dirty Bomb to be anything resembling a good game. It's probably better to anticipate the game being shit, this way you can't have your heart shattered into a million pieces. Super best case scenario: Game is decent, and you're pleasantly surprised.

Zxerol

Telling that the trailer pimps it as coming from the developer of Enemy Territory and Quake Wars but makes no mention of Brink at all.

Silas Adams

Spoit wrote: »

Jageto wrote: »

Regarding BioWare RPGs, looks like DA3 is going next-gen and being pushed to 2014.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/11/28/dragon-age-iii-shifts-to-next-gen-aiming-for-2014

Not a huge surprise. I'm sure most games in development past this upcoming spring rush are seriously considering it

I'm convinced that's why Half-Life 3 is taking so long. Imagine that as a launch title...

Henroid

There's some hubub building up about the Wii U's hardware specs. Someone hacked it, I guess, and found out the details? The GPU is about 550MHz (a bit faster than the PS3; double 360) and the processor is like 1.24 GHz with 3 cores.

Not that I'm sure why people are all getting mad about video games about this. I haven't seen any mentioning of the RAM.

BlindPsychic

I still like Splash Damage cause I feel like they're one of the old school guys still carrying the PC FPS torch from those old Q2 and HL mod scenes. That said, they continue to be incapable of creating a healthy community and launching smooth enough to not have the game bomb terribly.

Henroid

Okay Helloween shared this from GAF:

Wii U CPU: 1.2GHz tri-core Memory: 2 GB Memory bandwidth: 12.8 GB/s GPU core: 550MHz
Xbox 360 CPU: 3.2GHz tri-core Memory: 512 MB Memory bandwidth: 22.4 GB/s GPU core: 500MHz
PS3 CPU: 3.2GHz single core + 6 SPUs Memory: 256 MB + 256 MB Memory bandwidth: 25.6 GB/s GPU Core: 550MHz

Helloween is astute though and adds,

But bare in mind that you cannot just compare the 3 machines number to number, it doesnt work

There's other things to take into account.

Zxerol

BlindPsychic wrote: »

I still like Splash Damage cause I feel like they're one of the old school guys still carrying the PC FPS torch from those old Q2 and HL mod scenes. That said, they continue to be incapable of creating a healthy community and launching smooth enough to not have the game bomb terribly.

Brink was a game that I really wanted to like, enough to preorder which I hardly do, in large part because of that. And I did like it for about a week, until it was apparent on how jacked the game was and how the map balance was utterly fucked. Whatever could by salavaged was squandered because Splash Damage supported the game fuck-all. But they did find time to chum up a paid piece of DLC though. Though it was free for all of a week for those who had already purchased it, as sort of a "lol our bads." I guess that's a nice gesture.

That game is on a shortlist of titles I regret purchasing, close to Hellgate London.

Lanrutcon

Henroid wrote: »

Okay Helloween shared this from GAF:

Wii U CPU: 1.2GHz tri-core Memory: 2 GB Memory bandwidth: 12.8 GB/s GPU core: 550MHz
Xbox 360 CPU: 3.2GHz tri-core Memory: 512 MB Memory bandwidth: 22.4 GB/s GPU core: 500MHz
PS3 CPU: 3.2GHz single core + 6 SPUs Memory: 256 MB + 256 MB Memory bandwidth: 25.6 GB/s GPU Core: 550MHz

Helloween is astute though and adds,

But bare in mind that you cannot just compare the 3 machines number to number, it doesnt work

There's other things to take into account.

Ok, so we can't judge the WiiU on the performance of the games and we can't judge it based on comparison to other consoles?

darleysam

Microsoft has renamed its Vancouver studio to Black Tusk, and set them to work on a new, big, unannounced IP:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-11-29-new-dev-black-tusk-studios-working-on-microsofts-next-big-entertainment-franchise

UPDATE: Black Tusk, the newly-formed Vancouver-based first-party studio, is focusing on the Xbox 360, according to a write up by local paper The Vancouver Sun.

Staff have an average of 12 years experience in triple-A games, the industry's equivalent of Hollywood summer blockbuster movies - “big games, big teams, big budgets, long timelines,” said studio boss Michael Crump, formerly of EA.

“What that means is we are working on Microsoft's next big entertainment franchise,” he said. “We're not working on an existing franchise, we're looking to build the next Halo here in Vancouver, for example, which is really exciting. We are building something from the ground up.”

ORIGINAL STORY: Microsoft has renamed its Vancouver, Canada developer as Black Tusk Studios and set it to work on a new Xbox exclusive IP.

The Microsoft Studios company is working on “AAA games that push the limits of Microsoft's entertainment platforms”, according to its recently re-launched website.

“Do you want to help define Microsoft's next big entertainment franchise?” it asks. “Let's talk.”

So what is this mystery new franchise?

There's a job ad for a senior gameplay engineer, which mentions a “AAA console game”. One of the requirements is “experience with multiplayer and/or co-op gameplay development”

According to internet super sleuth Superannuation, “Apparently it is some big new IP space shooter thing on the scale of a Gears or Halo. Lead designer of Crysis 2 is working on it.”

Another job ad, for a senior AI engineer, calls the mystery project a "AAA core game".

Being a first-party studio means Black Tusk can leverage resources, technology and experience from the likes of Halo 4 developer 343, Forza developer Turn 10, Kinect Sports developer Rare and Fable maker Lionhead.

I know the comments will be "ugh, a new big space shooter more Gears and Halo", but I'm pleased to see them working on new IP rather than just paying for timed exclusives. They've hopefully recognised that they're going to need a roster of Xbox exclusives for the next generation, and are taking steps to bulk up that list.

Henroid

Lanrutcon wrote: »

Henroid wrote: »

Okay Helloween shared this from GAF:

Wii U CPU: 1.2GHz tri-core Memory: 2 GB Memory bandwidth: 12.8 GB/s GPU core: 550MHz
Xbox 360 CPU: 3.2GHz tri-core Memory: 512 MB Memory bandwidth: 22.4 GB/s GPU core: 500MHz
PS3 CPU: 3.2GHz single core + 6 SPUs Memory: 256 MB + 256 MB Memory bandwidth: 25.6 GB/s GPU Core: 550MHz

Helloween is astute though and adds,

But bare in mind that you cannot just compare the 3 machines number to number, it doesnt work

There's other things to take into account.

Ok, so we can't judge the WiiU on the performance of the games and we can't judge it based on comparison to other consoles?

I'm trying to introduce this as mild-mannered as possible to avoid accidental console-war sparks.

Lanrutcon

Henroid wrote: »

Lanrutcon wrote: »

Henroid wrote: »

Okay Helloween shared this from GAF:

Wii U CPU: 1.2GHz tri-core Memory: 2 GB Memory bandwidth: 12.8 GB/s GPU core: 550MHz
Xbox 360 CPU: 3.2GHz tri-core Memory: 512 MB Memory bandwidth: 22.4 GB/s GPU core: 500MHz
PS3 CPU: 3.2GHz single core + 6 SPUs Memory: 256 MB + 256 MB Memory bandwidth: 25.6 GB/s GPU Core: 550MHz

Helloween is astute though and adds,

But bare in mind that you cannot just compare the 3 machines number to number, it doesnt work

There's other things to take into account.

Ok, so we can't judge the WiiU on the performance of the games and we can't judge it based on comparison to other consoles?

I'm trying to introduce this as mild-mannered as possible to avoid accidental console-war sparks.

Fair enough. On the positive side, the WiiU is probably going to be very easy to emulate free from region locking <redacted> given those specs.

Henroid

Uh, that's not the best of things to discuss here.