As was foretold, we've added advertisements to the forums! If you have questions, or if you encounter any bugs, please visit this thread: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240191/forum-advertisement-faq-and-reports-thread/
We're funding a new Acquisitions Incorporated series on Kickstarter right now! Check it out at https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/pennyarcade/acquisitions-incorporated-the-series-2

[WoW] Go to new thread

17778808283100

Posts

  • MetalMagusMetalMagus Too Serious Registered User regular
    forty wrote: »
    5.2 Notes, Re: PvP

    And we're back to World of Roguecraft.

    Frost mage... buffs? At least Imp CS looks like it's getting axed. And after Blizz spent how long insisting blanket silences were just fine and dandy?

    Edit: Also, can resto druids ever get some fucking passive defense/mitigation for the love of fuck? Disc priest passive mit is getting buffed more, and they already have more armor and 20% DR when Focused Will goes up (which happens very quickly). I don't really know how monks stack up since I've never looked into how the class works. I'm sure they're in a similar low armor boat, but I know they have some sort of crazy super saiyan "can't CC me" bubble or proc or whatever.

    For Frost Mages, having full damage frostbolts right at the start of the fight is nice, but that change to Freeze is horrible - that's going to be a big dps loss on most boss fights unless they manage to get that reworked Water Jet spell back in.

    Also, something that was datamined but isn't in the official patch notes is that Deep Freeze will break on the first crit, at least that's how I'm reading Deep Freeze is broken by spells which benefit from Shatter. Timed right, I can usually squeeze 3 spells in during a deep freeze (frost bomb, FFB, ice lance) which is nice burst if they all crit - over 200,000 in my current gear.

    It's the age old lament of PvE nerfed on account of PvP, I just hope I can keep some sustained damage without resorting to frostbolt spam.

  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    I kinda liked the new Druid Tier.

    Until I saw that on my Tauren, his snout pokes out the tree's mouth. Gah.

    Then again, being in Cat Form so much means I could give a rat's ass what the armor looks like.

  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    TheBigEasy wrote: »
    What does it mean in the patch notes when it says that a pet killed in battle will never respawn?

    right now, if you are hunting a rare and accidently kill it instead of trapping it (but at least one other enemy pet is alive) you can alt f4, log back in, and fight the same group and the rare will be at full hp.

    After the patch, no longer the case


    @forty blue posted that there are more ret paladins (one spec of a class) than rogues of any spec all added up playing at the moment. Roguecraft indeed /eyeroll
    Do you even PvP? I thought you only raided.

    Edit: Anyway, have you not seen the massive amount of incoming rogue buffs for PvP? I will never not have a rogue glued to me until one of us is dead the moment one decides to engage on me. They will be more inescapable than 5.0 warriors.

    forty on
    Officially the unluckiest CCG player ever.
  • LorahaloLorahalo Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Something like 14% of my server are paladins, with about 50% of them being Blood Elves. Paladins all over the fucking place.

    Lorahalo on
    I have a podcast about Digimon called the Digital Moncast, on Audio Entropy.
  • LorahaloLorahalo Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    I discovered the greatest thing ever. Early on Tuesdays here (Australia), VP and LFR lockouts are reset instead of during maintenance which is on Tuesday nights. However, it seems that the 50% bonus for capping out VP from last week doesn't fade straight away. Time to go do my VP grinding while I've got this buff! (Shut up I know it's Christmas)

    Lorahalo on
    I have a podcast about Digimon called the Digital Moncast, on Audio Entropy.
  • TheBigEasyTheBigEasy Registered User regular
    TheBigEasy wrote: »
    What does it mean in the patch notes when it says that a pet killed in battle will never respawn?

    Quoting because I wondered the exact same thing.

    semi-related, I might start putting time into pet battles soon. Anyone have any particular recommendation about leveling pets; what are good pets to grind up with, is there a way to 'powerlevel' pets after the fact, etc.

    I think my highest pet is 7 or 8 and I had just been leveling a few of my CE pets. The only one that seems overly effective is the Mini-Thor but I don't even know.

    take a group of pets and start fighting pets about 2 lvls higher than you. catch one of the enemy pets - rinse repeat until you have a or more lvl 23 pets. then do the dailies as those give more xp than the normal fights.

    if you then want to powerlevel a pet - put it in a group with higher level pets and do the dailies.

    i put a lvl 8 dragon in the group and went to fight the pet tamer at karazhan. by sheer coincidence my two high lvl pets died and the lvl 8 was able to finish the fight. he got 2k xp and jumped to lvl 11.

    also do normal fights with higher lvl pets than the one you want to level - also with the same group setup. i sub the lowlevel in for a round and then beat the opppnent up with my highlvl.

  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Brainleech wrote: »
    I have 5 rogues and 3 paladins only one of them is Ret the other two are holy/pro and holy

    You have personal anecdotes, Blizzard has the exact numbers for every account.

    steam_sig.png
  • NobodyNobody Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    TheBigEasy wrote: »
    What does it mean in the patch notes when it says that a pet killed in battle will never respawn?

    Quoting because I wondered the exact same thing.

    semi-related, I might start putting time into pet battles soon. Anyone have any particular recommendation about leveling pets; what are good pets to grind up with, is there a way to 'powerlevel' pets after the fact, etc.

    I think my highest pet is 7 or 8 and I had just been leveling a few of my CE pets. The only one that seems overly effective is the Mini-Thor but I don't even know.

    Mini-thor is good at the beginning, but kinda falls off after a while. I stick with missile for slot one, minefield for slot two, and sticky bombs for slot three. He's too slow for batter to be effective, the dot from the toxic mist is nice, but mine field is better, and the rocket for slot three is nothing to write home about.

    Out of the other pets...I like Feline Familiar for PVE. Devour is incredibly strong for leveling, and easy access to a magic skill in slot 1 helps against fliers. Magical Crawdad (if you got him) is a strong healer. I have Grunty for my humanoid. The Celestial Dragonling isn't bad for a starter dragon. I have Cinder Kitten for my elemental slot, but he doesn't really bring a lot of elemental damage to the table so....

    If leveling in Kalimdor, expect to see a lot of Beasts, Critters, and Aquatics, with a few Flyers, so choose your pets accordingly (pets that do Beast Damage for Critters, Mechanical for Beasts, and Flyer for Aquatics, with Magic for Flyers).

    Nobody on
  • OptyOpty Registered User regular
    What's the pet you need to catch now during the Winter? I want to make sure I level my pets up enough to catch that before the season changes.

  • Magus`Magus` The fun has been DOUBLED! Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    So I tried again to do some of the Rank 8 fights (as a Frost DK). While I understand these are designed to really push you, they're also really poorly designed in a manner of ways -

    1. Little robot fellow (Disruptron or something like that). Constantly moves, tiny hit box and short enrage timer. Like I get that you're supposed to stay 'on the move' but the fact is he moves with no pattern and it's very easy to be off him for 5-10s+ at a time because he decided he's going to run in god knows what direction. I've gotten him to the 'enrage' timer many times but I am just unable to keep any sort of pressure on him due to him not standing still at all.

    2. Millhouse Manastorm. The only complaint I have about this guy is it's pretty much entirely luck based (at this gear level) since if the first 2 or so crystal spawns are not 'in your favor' you can't get buffed enough to beat him. Otherwise a relatively simple fight. Oddly has a HUGE hitbox.

    3. Epicus Maximus - Two complaints here - One his laser attack has a much wider 'hitbox' then what it shows visually, by a good 5 yards. This is only really an issue because he has an exceedingly small hitbox meaning that it's either try to dodge the questionably placed laser beam or hit the enrage timer.

    4. Big eye dude. Only real issue I can find his his eye lasers in 'phase 2' seem to like to make bizarre patterns seemingly at random. Can't count how many times I've almost beat him and then a laser is like WHOO I'M GONNA DO 180 OUT OF NOWHERE. Also, small hitbox (seeing a trend?).

    I'll try again later but man, even just bigger hitboxes would make these fights less maddening.

    Magus` on
  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Opty wrote: »
    What's the pet you need to catch now during the Winter? I want to make sure I level my pets up enough to catch that before the season changes.

    also curious about this

    steam_sig.png
  • SaraLunaSaraLuna Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    the winter pet is the snowy owl in winterspring.
    in wow, "winter" lasts from mid-sept to mid-march for the winter squid, but it might be different for the pet. (it didn't show up in-game until november, but that could've been an issue with the pet battles still being new)

    edit with more details: they spawn all over the winterspring zone. they're not common, but not especially rare. a circuit or two should find one.
    also be sure to capture anything that might be up in everlook while you're there, that place is camped to hell ever since they put in the robo-bear

    SaraLuna on
  • DibbyDibby I'll do my best! Registered User regular
    I don't/can't understand the Rogue unpopularity. Like okay yeah, with any sort of stack data, something's going to be at the top and something's going to be at the bottom... but Rogues? Cmon man, they can stealth and stab shit in the back and they have poisons and they're AWESOME. I really don't get it. They have a pretty solid theme/kit. Hm. Wonder if it's gameplay reasons? Like maybe Energy/CP is a turnoff to players? I really don't know. Could even be that by comparison, they're less attractive than other classes. That, I could understand. At the end of Cata, when I had ten 85s, I noticed I was playing my Rogue the least. Hm...

    DNiDlnb.png
    Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
  • Dr_KeenbeanDr_Keenbean Dumb as a butt Planet Express ShipRegistered User regular
    Maybe people see rogues as a one trick pony? I've always loved them and for a time it was the only class I would play. But then LFD was added and I started playing tanks almost exclusively.

    PSN/NNID/Steam: Dr_Keenbean
    3DS: 1650-8480-6786
    Switch: SW-0653-8208-4705
  • dylmandylman Registered User regular
    Rogues haven't really had the full class redesign that other classes have had (and paladins seem to get every other patch).

    Smrtnik
  • BlendtecBlendtec Registered User regular
    The big change for rogues was moving energy regent to haste in wrath. It meant low end geared rogues didn't have the same level of regen they had before. It really kills the flow of combat and makes the class less fun. Didn't help that with the homogenization of skills and buffs rogues really got left out in the cold.

  • fortyforty Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Dibby wrote: »
    I don't/can't understand the Rogue unpopularity. Like okay yeah, with any sort of stack data, something's going to be at the top and something's going to be at the bottom... but Rogues? Cmon man, they can stealth and stab shit in the back and they have poisons and they're AWESOME. I really don't get it. They have a pretty solid theme/kit. Hm. Wonder if it's gameplay reasons? Like maybe Energy/CP is a turnoff to players? I really don't know. Could even be that by comparison, they're less attractive than other classes. That, I could understand. At the end of Cata, when I had ten 85s, I noticed I was playing my Rogue the least. Hm...
    If we're talking about PvE only, I think it's just due to the nature of the single combat role. Pure DPS classes tend to be toward the bottom of the "stack", especially now that "hybrid tax" is gone and Blizzard is striving not to have strong PvE DPS outliers. Rogues being melee DPS only probably compounds it, since (certainly not all the time, but in more situations than not) the game is more unfriendly toward melee than ranged.

    The only exception to the pure DPS popularity right now (and it always has been) is hunters, probably for a few reasons:

    1. They're an incredibly newbie friendly class -- their 50 hotkey complexity isn't really felt if you're not trying to PvP well or raid above [arbitrary threshold %].
    2. They've always been a strong soloing class -- they're an all-in-one lite holy trinity, with a pet to tank, Mend Pet and some other talent/pet abilities for healing, and then good DPS.
    3. A combination of 1 and 2, they're a popular botting/farming class, so that likely inflates the numbers as well.


    Paladins and hunters have pretty much always had the "tard-friendly" association throughout WoW's lifetime, and somewhat unsurprisingly, they're the two most popular classes and usually have been over the last 8 years (accounting for the Alliance-only restriction in Vanilla).

    forty on
    Officially the unluckiest CCG player ever.
  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    the winter pet is the snowy owl in winterspring.
    in wow, "winter" lasts from mid-sept to mid-march for the winter squid, but it might be different for the pet. (it didn't show up in-game until november, but that could've been an issue with the pet battles still being new)

    edit with more details: they spawn all over the winterspring zone. they're not common, but not especially rare. a circuit or two should find one.
    also be sure to capture anything that might be up in everlook while you're there, that place is camped to hell ever since they put in the robo-bear

    heh, ever since you posted that I have been circling. No owls, but first and only robo bear was blue and I got it

    steam_sig.png
  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Maybe people see rogues as a one trick pony? I've always loved them and for a time it was the only class I would play. But then LFD was added and I started playing tanks almost exclusively.
    Blendtec wrote: »
    The big change for rogues was moving energy regent to haste in wrath. It meant low end geared rogues didn't have the same level of regen they had before. It really kills the flow of combat and makes the class less fun. Didn't help that with the homogenization of skills and buffs rogues really got left out in the cold.

    we have dependency on thresholds on multiple stats, yellow hit, high enough haste so you get to do a special more than once every 10 seconds, enough crit to proc dispatch more than once a minute, enough mastery to actually hit like not a wet noodle. Thats for mutilate, but combat and sub have equivalent problems. This means that a new rogue just hitting 9/ feels awful to play.

    We also have still positional attacks. No non-dps spec. Must be in melee to do damage, and on most fights melee is more dangerous. We bring one group buff now (finally) but the most benefit it brings is to other rogues, other melee less so, and nothing got casters. We have leather armor without ability to change stance or shape to turn tanky if stiff hits the fan, evasion lasts a short while and has a lengthy cooldown. For soloing, stealth is only good for the opener since if you vanish or try the gouge & stealth move the mob resets. We also have a ton of situational abilities meaning many keybinds to play well.

    I like my rogue I have been playing since vanilla, but thats because I know every expansion is the same way and we get playabe with gear. But it must be frustrating as hell to new rogues. So they go back to classes that can spec instant dungeon queries and/or dps from ranged safety and immediately be a contribution instead of a liability.

    steam_sig.png
    Halfmex
  • PenumbraPenumbra Registered User regular
    Smrtnik wrote: »
    Opty wrote: »
    What's the pet you need to catch now during the Winter? I want to make sure I level my pets up enough to catch that before the season changes.

    also curious about this

    @Smrtnik @opty the pet is in winterspring and it is the snowy owl. I just caught one and it is level 17.

    My druid dinged 90 yesterday, and I really don't want to go through leveling again without having a way to fly.

    On my way around kalimdor to do the trainer dailies, I checked the Minfernal spawns. There was one up, and I now own an uncommon Minfernal. There were at least a half-dozen people floating waiting for a spawn, but when I flew over I had to do a double take. No one was over where that one was. It was right near the large lake of ooze.

    Switch Friend Code: 6359-7575-9391
  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Lehi, UTRegistered User regular
    edited December 2012
    So I didn't see a sale advertised, but I'm looking at the blizzard store and a bunch of the in-game pets are discounted:

    Soul of the Aspects
    Lil'K.T.
    Pandaren Monk
    Lil'XT
    Lil' Ragnaros
    Moonkin Hatchling
    Cenarion Hatchling
    Guardian Cub

    are all $5.

    Everything else is normal price (the only pet not on sale is the Cinder Kitten)

    I'm going to wait till tomorrow to see if I got any since they were on my family wishlist, but knowing my luck they won't be on sale tomorrow afternoon :rotate:

    EDIT: Hur dur, I see now, it was announced earlier in the month; on sale till Jan 1st.

    Cool. Well, either way, tomorrow I'll probably end up with all of the pet store pets I don't already have. :D

    The Dude With Herpes on
    Steam: Galedrid - XBL: Galedrid - PSN: Galedrid
    Origin: Galedrid - Nintendo: Galedrid/3222-6858-1045
    Blizzard: Galedrid#1367 - FFXIV: Galedrid Kingshand

  • PenumbraPenumbra Registered User regular
    So I didn't see a sale advertised, but I'm looking at the blizzard store and a bunch of the in-game pets are discounted:

    Soul of the Aspects
    Lil'K.T.
    Pandaren Monk
    Lil'XT
    Lil' Ragnaros
    Moonkin Hatchling
    Cenarion Hatchling
    Guardian Cub

    are all $5.

    Everything else is normal price (the only pet not on sale is the Cinder Kitten)

    I'm going to wait till tomorrow to see if I got any since they were on my family wishlist, but knowing my luck they won't be on sale tomorrow afternoon :rotate:

    EDIT: Hur dur, I see now, it was announced earlier in the month; on sale till Jan 1st.

    Cool. Well, either way, tomorrow I'll probably end up with all of the pet store pets I don't already have. :D

    I would pay... probably $30-50 for a murloc pet, from the blizzcons before they were simulcast online with the same rewards.

    Switch Friend Code: 6359-7575-9391
    Halfmex
  • InvisibleInvisible Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    I always thought for their charity donations they should do a random pet/mount giveaway. It would cost $10 or $25, but would have a chance of containing a discontinued pet or mount. So people would "donate" more and it would let people have a chance at things they couldn't get anymore.

    Invisible on
  • InvisibleInvisible Registered User regular
    So I discovered something moderately useful. If you Ice Block you can still buy from vendors. That's how I managed to finally get the red winter clothes recipe on my level 42 undead mage.

  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Invisible wrote: »
    So I discovered something moderately useful. If you Ice Block you can still buy from vendors. That's how I managed to finally get the red winter clothes recipe on my level 42 undead mage.

    I don't understand why this is necessary

    steam_sig.png
  • SaraLunaSaraLuna Registered User regular
    the red/green clothes patterns are bop and each one is only sold by the vendor in one of the cities - the green is only in Org & the red is only in Ironforge.
    the vendors are faction neutral, but you still have to go into the enemy city if you want both.
    Horde have it somewhat easier as IF is no longer the alliance capital. meanwhile, the Org vendor is right in front of the main horde auction house

  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    Was going to say what about alts, but then saw bop. Lame. So iceblock is like the old paladin bubble then?

    steam_sig.png
  • BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    I would pay money for a plan that would build via tailors that Murloc Costume

  • BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    I just noticed something
    THe LFD only will give you justice/valour for one dungeon you do accross your account?

  • BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    ok weird I know it's a new week and I really did not do a heroic since the Winter feast event started but I did a few runs on my alts and it prevented me from getting points on my rogue and warlock

  • InvisibleInvisible Registered User regular
    the red/green clothes patterns are bop and each one is only sold by the vendor in one of the cities - the green is only in Org & the red is only in Ironforge.
    the vendors are faction neutral, but you still have to go into the enemy city if you want both.
    Horde have it somewhat easier as IF is no longer the alliance capital. meanwhile, the Org vendor is right in front of the main horde auction house

    I don't know if it's still there, but supposedly alliance can buy the green version in Shattrath.

  • BrainleechBrainleech 機知に富んだコメントはここにあります Registered User regular
    Well way back in vanilla I did the death run to Ironforge and bought the red one
    And just walked into org on my mage and bought the green one

  • InvisibleInvisible Registered User regular
    You probably could on Malygos. If you can get past the guards, there's hardly anyone in Ogrimmar. Now IF was pretty busy, but they weren't bothering me, it was the guards who kept killing me.

  • JediNightJediNight Registered User regular
    Nyht wrote: »
    So I gave up on the warrior and moved back to the monk to try and learn Brewmaster tanking. This should be ... interesting? God I hope I don't suck. A LOT of stuff to handle and I hate making healers squeal as I've been one. Oh well I guess ...
    The only dicey thing I've found with Brewmaster is to remember your first thing to do always should be Keg Smash then Blackout Kick to get Shuffle up, otherwise you are like a Feral tank in caster form. This can be a little tricky with tank swaps sometimes, or if you have a long period where you have nothing to attack and your Shuffle buffer is gone.

  • DibbyDibby I'll do my best! Registered User regular
    JediNight wrote: »
    Nyht wrote: »
    So I gave up on the warrior and moved back to the monk to try and learn Brewmaster tanking. This should be ... interesting? God I hope I don't suck. A LOT of stuff to handle and I hate making healers squeal as I've been one. Oh well I guess ...
    The only dicey thing I've found with Brewmaster is to remember your first thing to do always should be Keg Smash then Blackout Kick to get Shuffle up, otherwise you are like a Feral tank in caster form. This can be a little tricky with tank swaps sometimes, or if you have a long period where you have nothing to attack and your Shuffle buffer is gone.

    For raid tanking, one of the best "tricks" I've learned is to let your co-tank go first. This gives you ample time to build Shuffle up to a relatively high duration, so by the time it's your turn to take the boss you've already built it up quite a bit.

    There's definitely a lot going on with Brewmasters though. Shuffle, Stagger, Elusive Brew, Purifying Brew, Tiger Power/Power Guard, Gift of the Ox, Ox Statue, Energy/Chi, etc... in addition to all the other crap going on in the encounter. Just take it one step at a time, don't overload yourself by trying to pay attention to everything at once. Master one or two things, then start incorporating other stuff into your play. There is a lot you have to pay attention to though, I even forget stuff sometimes (mostly GotO and Ox Statue positioning). Having a way to track Shuffle and Stagger like through an addon is definitely recommended.

    It's by far my favorite class to tank on though. Very fun mechanically, and very rewarding. Energy is basically the best resource a Tank could ever have, very reliable and predictable.

    DNiDlnb.png
    Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
  • JediNightJediNight Registered User regular
    Does Leer of the Black Ox actually work on bosses? I've tried using it and it seems to do nothing.

  • Warlock82Warlock82 Never pet a burning dog Registered User regular
    Man, did they secretly buff (or accidentally undo the nerf) Twin Emps or did they nerf Boomkins? I used to be able to solo them on my levle 87 boomkin. Now I cannot out dps their healing on my level 88 boomkin. WTF?

    Switch: 2143-7130-1359 | 3DS: 4983-4927-6699 | Steam: warlock82 | PSN: Warlock2282
  • 815165815165 Registered User regular
    Warlock82 wrote: »
    Man, did they secretly buff (or accidentally undo the nerf) Twin Emps or did they nerf Boomkins? I used to be able to solo them on my levle 87 boomkin. Now I cannot out dps their healing on my level 88 boomkin. WTF?

    Could be rating decay.

    Smrtnik
  • ZythonZython Registered User regular
    JediNight wrote: »
    Does Leer of the Black Ox actually work on bosses? I've tried using it and it seems to do nothing.

    Haven't tried myself, but from what I've heard, it does not.

    Switch: SW-3245-5421-8042 | 3DS Friend Code: 4854-6465-0299 | PSN: Zaithon
    Steam: pazython
  • SmrtnikSmrtnik job boli zub Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    815165 wrote: »
    Warlock82 wrote: »
    Man, did they secretly buff (or accidentally undo the nerf) Twin Emps or did they nerf Boomkins? I used to be able to solo them on my levle 87 boomkin. Now I cannot out dps their healing on my level 88 boomkin. WTF?

    Could be rating decay.

    it is.

    To clarify: the higher you get in lvl the higher ilvl gear is available to you. Not only that, the progression is not linear, it is exponential with each expansion (so you don't use gear from last one to do endgame in current one). Higher ilvl means more stats on gear. This works fine for things like weapon damage, but not so fine for things like hit or crit. For example, if x crit rating gives you y % crit at 85 and 90, then with gear you get at 90 you will be getting much more crit than you should. By the end of the expansion you would have 90 % crit. By end of next expansion you would have 160 % crit. Etc... It doesn't make sense. So the curve of how much rating it takes for stuff changes with which expansion levels you are in (61 to 70, 71 to 80, etc...). And so unless you are staying in best gear you can for your level, you very quickly lose crit, haste, etc, until you hit the end of the lvl curve and start focusing on gearing again rather than leveling. Some classes are more affected than others (see rogue discussion above). When I first hit 90 on my rogue, I had twice the hp I had at 85 but half the dps. Now that I have geared up some, I have little over htwice the hp, but 4 times the dps.

    Smrtnik on
    steam_sig.png
This discussion has been closed.