Once again, the K2 is not the problem. The Gauss Rifle itself is the problem. It's not like we get any less worried when we see a Gauss Rifle on a different mech. The K2 just happens to have two of those fucking things.
The K2 is part of the problem though, in that it mounts both rifles so close together that they may as well be one weapon hitting for 30 points at any range from "Please crawl out of my ass" to "That tiny red glowy bit is your eye, right?".
Now that you can get a pair of rifles on a Cataphract, you can see how much impact having those two hard points so close together has on a K2.
All I'm saying is it's not entirely the Gauss Rifle being overpowered, and it's not entirely the K2 chassis at fault either. But put the two together and stuff breaks.
I had a 4x SSRM2 2x MPLAS Catapult just before the recent buff that made Streakapults public enemy number one (not during the CT-instacoring days though) and even with that I was like, "well, this is boring" and swapped it out. You might get a lot of kills but it's so unsatisfying. Overpowered nature aside, there's just no... gameplay.
How to play a Streakapult:
A. Is there an enemy in range?
- Yes: Go to B.
- No: Get in range of an enemy -- you're as fast as if not faster than most mechs anyway.
B. Do you have a lock on the enemy?
- Yes: Go to C.
- No: Get a lock by hovering your mouse in the general direction of the enemy.
C. Is the enemy dead yet?
- Yes: Go to A.
- No: Hold down your firing button.
If you want to get really advanced you can... use jumpjets.
(various rumblings on how the Gaussapult isn't overpowered followed by) ... The AC20Pult is better at Short Range as is the Streak-Apult
So the builds that are better than the Gaussapult in closer combat are... other Catapults. And even sticking with medium/long range, what's one of the most versatile, capable platforms for a mech with LRMs? Catapults again.
This sounds like the kind of variety that enhances a gaming experience. Why should anyone run a medium or assault with more balanced hardpoints than a Catapult? Other than, you know, one less Catapult on the other team.
There is a consistent theme with these overpowered cheese builds: negligible need for heat management, minimal need for team coordination, extreme specialization, and minimal complexity of weapon grouping. Those minimized factors happen to be some of the best parts of what make Mechwarrior, Mechwarrior. Arguing against them isn't simply a matter of balancing, but keeping the fun in the game and rewarding people for playing the game like its core mechanics are in fact actually fun, instead of obstacles to overcome to maximize your k/d.
Once again, the K2 is not the problem. The Gauss Rifle itself is the problem. It's not like we get any less worried when we see a Gauss Rifle on a different mech. The K2 just happens to have two of those fucking things.
The K2 is part of the problem though, in that it mounts both rifles so close together that they may as well be one weapon hitting for 30 points at any range from "Please crawl out of my ass" to "That tiny red glowy bit is your eye, right?".
Now that you can get a pair of rifles on a Cataphract, you can see how much impact having those two hard points so close together has on a K2.
All I'm saying is it's not entirely the Gauss Rifle being overpowered, and it's not entirely the K2 chassis at fault either. But put the two together and stuff breaks.
Yeah, I'm not at all saying the gauss isn't overpowered, just that the K2 is what makes it really overpowered. You can at least break the gauss Cataphract's arms in a reasonable amount of time, whereas the Gaussapult has huge shields blocking its extremely narrow side torso sections. And I never get pissed off at seeing somebody toting a single gauss like I do 3 or 6 streaks, simply because that gauss required at least some tradeoffs to mount and requires some skill to use. The Gaussapult just doesn't seem as bad right now because streak Cats are such bullshit, but it's definitely an unbalanced variant.
If they were to balance gauss rifles without addressing the K2's problems at all, then we'd either end up with a totally underpowered gauss situation or the gauss would still stay overpowered on a K2. Both issues should be addressed, but if one or the other isn't addressed tomorrow and streaks do get patched to something reasonable tomorrow, then we'll be patched "up" to where we were something like 2-4 months ago where 2-3 gauss Cats could maul basically everything in short order. It'll still be better than streak Cats, but it also still won't actually be a step forward.
EDIT: And regardless of where somebody may think the majority of the blame is, Gaussapults are flat-out unbalanced. There simply isn't a reasonable argument to the contrary, because their ultra-pinpoint accuracy, high damage, zero heat issues, high protection, and extreme range basically ignore any and all balance elements other builds have to endure. Ironically, Gaussapults are the exact sort of thing which destroys the fiction of the game when common sense is used: they're basically tanks. Heavy front armor, powerful and accurate pinpoint punch, ultra-long range, and can fire endlessly to destroy things way outside their weight class.
Ninja Snarl P on
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
edited November 2012
In my experience, if I see a guass Cat I'm likely to go "Well, I better be careful, but we should kill this relatively quickly and such a thing is probably not too difficult provided I'm able to sneak up behind it and avoid its fire relatively well. But in general, it's doable."
Conversely, if I see a streak Cat I'm likely to go, "EVERYONE TARGET THE STREAKAPULT NOW OR WE LOSE THE GAME" or "Fuck me, I need to turn around and start running away from it this instant".
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited November 2012
Yeah, but that's gonna go the other way if streaks get put back to being reasonable and gauss rifles are left alone. Streak Cats will go away and then we'll go right back to 2-3 gaussapults a match with maximum effectiveness for minimal effort. It doesn't mean the gauss rifle is well-balanced, it just means that Streak Cats are so horribly, laughably broken that it makes the gauss rifle almost look reasonable in comparison.
Once again, the K2 is not the problem. The Gauss Rifle itself is the problem. It's not like we get any less worried when we see a Gauss Rifle on a different mech. The K2 just happens to have two of those fucking things.
The K2 is part of the problem though, in that it mounts both rifles so close together that they may as well be one weapon hitting for 30 points at any range from "Please crawl out of my ass" to "That tiny red glowy bit is your eye, right?".
Now that you can get a pair of rifles on a Cataphract, you can see how much impact having those two hard points so close together has on a K2.
All I'm saying is it's not entirely the Gauss Rifle being overpowered, and it's not entirely the K2 chassis at fault either. But put the two together and stuff breaks.
Yeah, I'm not at all saying the gauss isn't overpowered, just that the K2 is what makes it really overpowered. You can at least break the gauss Cataphract's arms in a reasonable amount of time, whereas the Gaussapult has huge shields blocking its extremely narrow side torso sections. And I never get pissed off at seeing somebody toting a single gauss like I do 3 or 6 streaks, simply because that gauss required at least some tradeoffs to mount and requires some skill to use. The Gaussapult just doesn't seem as bad right now because streak Cats are such bullshit, but it's definitely an unbalanced variant.
If they were to balance gauss rifles without addressing the K2's problems at all, then we'd either end up with a totally underpowered gauss situation or the gauss would still stay overpowered on a K2. Both issues should be addressed, but if one or the other isn't addressed tomorrow and streaks do get patched to something reasonable tomorrow, then we'll be patched "up" to where we were something like 2-4 months ago where 2-3 gauss Cats could maul basically everything in short order. It'll still be better than streak Cats, but it also still won't actually be a step forward.
EDIT: And regardless of where somebody may think the majority of the blame is, Gaussapults are flat-out unbalanced. There simply isn't a reasonable argument to the contrary, because their ultra-pinpoint accuracy, high damage, zero heat issues, high protection, and extreme range basically ignore any and all balance elements other builds have to endure. Ironically, Gaussapults are the exact sort of thing which destroys the fiction of the game when common sense is used: they're basically tanks. Heavy front armor, powerful and accurate pinpoint punch, ultra-long range, and can fire endlessly to destroy things way outside their weight class.
The problem is that to balance the K2 they need to either completely remove it (cue massive protest), frankenstein it into something that doesn't even exist in Battletech (cue neckbeards catching on fire from pure rage), or redo the hardpoint system (cue PGI taking a year to implement it and breaking the game so hard it opens a portal to The Abyss). All of these options are pretty much awful, but the best solution may be to just get rid of the fucker entirely and reimburse everyone who owns one.
Moving both ballistics hardpoints into the same side torso would allow it to have essentially the intact default loadout, as well as allowing you to double up on smaller ACs which makes intuitive sense without requiring an overarching hardpoint system overhaul. Or, perhaps a bit harsher, moving both ballistics slots to the center torso, which at least would require zero change in the game model.
The K2 was a fringe variant in the first place, and even then it was energy-oriented. Gauss/AC20 Cats are so far removed from the intended design of the chassis it's absurd. And now that we have the Cataphract, which is capable of dual-mounting Gauss in a more balanced setup, there is no legitimate reason for anyone to whine about the hardpoints being moved to a more sensible layout.
So what it's the best catapult at short range it gives up a ton of versatility for that.
Except that, leaving aside Caustic Valley matches, nearly every match is a close-range slugfest.
And even then, Caustic Valley tends to have a couple different ways it plays out, two of which are close-range slugfests (Caldera free-for-alls, which are dumb, and 3/4-corridor / lake-base stands).
So, being really, really awesome at short ranges and terrible at long-range is not a meaningful trade-off, most of the time.
so let me get this straight your argument appears to me to be
"this weapon set up is best in class at one range increment, but not so good as to invalidate other weapon arrangements in other classes (ie not on a catapult) so it must be fixed."
12x2 = 24. 24 damage to the center torso... every what three seconds? oh noes 8 dps. Why that's as good as two ac5's! oh no!
I might like to introduce you to say, an atlas who can lumber on up to you and do 80 points of damage to you in an alpha strike about 25 DPS at a similar range or this new guys the cataphract who can poop out 20 DPS and rock you cockpit like the fist of an angry god.
or even an ac20 cat who can just get all of the kills ever any time.
Was that Soggy or Carbon who did all the damage and got all the kills with his ac20 cat that one game in forest, I forget? It went something like this alpha strike ac20 x2, alpha strike ac 20 x2 dead "next" 7 or 8 times in a row.
---
sure streak cat is a thing, and it is pretty good. But it's not so good that everyone has one. It's not so good that it's the only thing people build. The catapult as a platform has a lot of draw backs without taking into account anything else.
the problem with PGI is not that they listen to their fans too little about what to hit with the nerf bat, but that they listen too much.
(various rumblings on how the Gaussapult isn't overpowered followed by) ... The AC20Pult is better at Short Range as is the Streak-Apult
So the builds that are better than the Gaussapult in closer combat are... other Catapults. And even sticking with medium/long range, what's one of the most versatile, capable platforms for a mech with LRMs? Catapults again.
This sounds like the kind of variety that enhances a gaming experience. Why should anyone run a medium or assault with more balanced hardpoints than a Catapult? Other than, you know, one less Catapult on the other team.
There is a consistent theme with these overpowered cheese builds: negligible need for heat management, minimal need for team coordination, extreme specialization, and minimal complexity of weapon grouping. Those minimized factors happen to be some of the best parts of what make Mechwarrior, Mechwarrior. Arguing against them isn't simply a matter of balancing, but keeping the fun in the game and rewarding people for playing the game like its core mechanics are in fact actually fun, instead of obstacles to overcome to maximize your k/d.
I don't know why you chose to ignore the part where I said I was only comparing them to items in the same exact class, or why you chose to paraphrase what I said so offensively. Pro tip: Learn to read. I'd highlight it above but you cut it out of your quote for obvious reasons.
Seruko on
"How are you going to play Dota if your fingers and bitten off? You can't. That's how" -> Carnarvon
"You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
"In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
"In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
edited November 2012
Can someone post a successful Dakkaphract build that utilizes all 4 ballistic hardpoints along with advice for how I should expect to play it?
I've tried Quad AC2s, Quad AC5s, AC2s w/ AC5s. All of these seems like they suck. I either have no alpha power or the heat requirements are so high (they are especially high because 4 Autocannons use up a ridiculous amount of tonnage such that you can't subsequently add many heat sinks) that you can't just unload for an extended period of time, and if I can't unload without worrying about my heat then I'd expect that in the time I'm unloading that I'm doing significant damage and not just scratching them.
The only marginal success I've had with the dakkaphract variant is 2 ML, 2 AC/10s but that's not exactly a dakkaphract and defeats the purpose of the variant that's I'm trying to build.
1. Streakapults never miss.
2. Streakapults are fast as fuck. They either outgun you by a huge margin or have the power to choose whether to engage you.
3. Streakapults can do damage to you without looking at you.
4. Streakapults, in their current form, ensure you are going to have one hell of a time aiming at them to try clipping their ears.
5. Streakapults can hit you in the back while your front is turned toward them, and vice versa.
Most Atlas and Cataphracts I see are not nearly as scary, and certainly not as difficult to avoid.
If you thinking winning close combat in this game is just a matter of who has the most DPS I question your tactical sense.
I don't know why you chose to ignore the part where I said I was only comparing them to items in the same exact class, or why you chose to paraphrase what I said so offensively. Pro tip: Learn to read. I'd highlight it above but you cut it out of your quote for obvious reasons.
I'm going to choose to ignore the Goon-esque portion of your response. If you found my paraphrase offensive then you might be a little oversensitive - "rumblings" is kind of light on connotations as far as terms like that go.
I didn't edit out your mention of "this is only in-class" to be a dick, I did it because there IS no compelling reason to look outside of the class if you want to maximize your domination currently. It's a moot point. In terms of sheer "FOCUS THIS TARGET NOW" nothing on the battlefield draws attention like the extended family of Catapult cheese builds.
edit: One other thing... SSRMs do 2.5 damage each, not 2.
Can someone post a successful Dakkaphract build that utilizes all 4 ballistic hardpoints along with advice for how I should expect to play it?
I've tried Quad AC2s, Quad AC5s, AC2s w/ AC5s. All of these seems like they suck. I either have no alpha power or the heat requirements are so high (they are especially high because 4 Autocannons use up a ridiculous amount of tonnage such that you can't subsequently add many heat sinks) that you can't just unload for an extended period of time, and if I can't unload without worrying about my heat then I'd expect that in the time I'm unloading that I'm doing significant damage and not just scratching them.
The only marginal success I've had with the dakkaphract variant is 2 ML, 2 AC/10s but that's not exactly a dakkaphract and defeats the purpose of the variant that's I'm trying to build.
I have a Dakkaphract and have finished all the basic XP. The most important thing about the mech is to just accept that you will be slow. If you want to move faster than a stock Atlas this is not the variant for you. You might be able to squeeze in a bigger engine with AC2s but not by a lot. I wouldn't even put in an XL personally, I just got used to the speed. And with stock AC5 ammo being so dirt cheap my repair and rearm costs are very low even when I fire every shot.
It's not a superstar mech like a streakcat. But the thing is a lot of fun. One you get a salvo going the cockpit rock and sheer terror of getting bombarded is at least as important as the DPS.
I upgraded it to endo steel, put in an AMS and 1 ton of AMS ammo then loaded up 4 AC5s and the rest of the weight in ammo. Kept the stock engine. The 10 heat sinks the thing requires you take is more than enough to chain fire that AC5. Given the option I would drop one or two heat sinks for more AC5 ammo even.
In terms of tactics: most important is to chain fire not group fire. Second is just do not even try to shoot at lights or cicadias (unless they are shut down). Waste of ammo. Go after Atlases and mechs that use weapons you have to aim. The cockpit rock from chainfiring AC5s is brutal and makes it really hard to fire back accurately (especially with your own ballistics or gauss). Also keep a little distance from your target. Don't get locked up face to face if possible.
Or, perhaps a bit harsher, moving both ballistics slots to the center torso, which at least would require zero change in the game model.
Harsh as it may be, I think I like this idea best. Should be easy to implement, and it will fix the Gausscat.
Either that or change the targeting profile of the mech so its easier to hit the side torso's. Not sure if that would need a model tweak to make the side torso's more visually targettable, or just a tweak for the hitcode like the do for cockpits on some mechs.
Speaking of which, I would really like it if they just standardized all cockpit sizes to one size, or if necessary, just 1 size of cockpit for each class.
So what it's the best catapult at short range it gives up a ton of versatility for that.
Except that, leaving aside Caustic Valley matches, nearly every match is a close-range slugfest.
And even then, Caustic Valley tends to have a couple different ways it plays out, two of which are close-range slugfests (Caldera free-for-alls, which are dumb, and 3/4-corridor / lake-base stands).
So, being really, really awesome at short ranges and terrible at long-range is not a meaningful trade-off, most of the time.
so let me get this straight your argument appears to me to be
"this weapon set up is best in class at one range increment, but not so good as to invalidate other weapon arrangements in other classes (ie not on a catapult) so it must be fixed."
12x2 = 24. 24 damage to the center torso... every what three seconds? oh noes 8 dps. Why that's as good as two ac5's! oh no!
I might like to introduce you to say, an atlas who can lumber on up to you and do 80 points of damage to you in an alpha strike about 25 DPS at a similar range or this new guys the cataphract who can poop out 20 DPS and rock you cockpit like the fist of an angry god.
or even an ac20 cat who can just get all of the kills ever any time.
Was that Soggy or Carbon who did all the damage and got all the kills with his ac20 cat that one game in forest, I forget? It went something like this alpha strike ac20 x2, alpha strike ac 20 x2 dead "next" 7 or 8 times in a row.
---
sure streak cat is a thing, and it is pretty good. But it's not so good that everyone has one. It's not so good that it's the only thing people build. The catapult as a platform has a lot of draw backs without taking into account anything else.
the problem with PGI is not that they listen to their fans too little about what to hit with the nerf bat, but that they listen too much.
(various rumblings on how the Gaussapult isn't overpowered followed by) ... The AC20Pult is better at Short Range as is the Streak-Apult
So the builds that are better than the Gaussapult in closer combat are... other Catapults. And even sticking with medium/long range, what's one of the most versatile, capable platforms for a mech with LRMs? Catapults again.
This sounds like the kind of variety that enhances a gaming experience. Why should anyone run a medium or assault with more balanced hardpoints than a Catapult? Other than, you know, one less Catapult on the other team.
There is a consistent theme with these overpowered cheese builds: negligible need for heat management, minimal need for team coordination, extreme specialization, and minimal complexity of weapon grouping. Those minimized factors happen to be some of the best parts of what make Mechwarrior, Mechwarrior. Arguing against them isn't simply a matter of balancing, but keeping the fun in the game and rewarding people for playing the game like its core mechanics are in fact actually fun, instead of obstacles to overcome to maximize your k/d.
I don't know why you chose to ignore the part where I said I was only comparing them to items in the same exact class, or why you chose to paraphrase what I said so offensively. Pro tip: Learn to read. I'd highlight it above but you cut it out of your quote for obvious reasons.
Man, your ability to misunderstand game balance is matched only by your ability to be smarmy about it.
The Gaussapult is overpowered. The StreakCat is overpowered. Neither of these is unbeatable, but they both offer huge advantages over every other configuration and, if this were really a competitive game (which it will become if faction warfare is ever implemented), these two builds would completely dominate the metagame.
A build doesn't have to be unbeatable at all ranges to be, on the whole, better. A rifle is inferior to a sword at a range of about two feet, but we still equip most of our military with rifles and not with swords. In the real world there's no longer a meaningful choice about how to equip your troops in that regard--guns beat swords, hands down. Having this kind of imbalance in MWO might be realistic, but it reduces the number of meaningful choices available to players and reduces the complexity of the game.
TL DRNot at all confident in his reflexive opinions of thingsRegistered Userregular
edited November 2012
What about nerfing the gauss rifle's health and/or buffing the explosion damage when it's destroyed? Would act to specifically nerf gausscats without doing too much to fuck with (for example) a gauss cataphract that wouldn't be mounting them in XL-engine-containing locations.
Or yeah just move the ballistic hardpoints on the K2 to CT or make gauss and AC20 take 2 ballistic hardpoints and adjust chassis like the Atlas so they still work as intended.
TL DR on
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
What about nerfing the gauss rifle's health and/or buffing the explosion damage when it's destroyed? Would act to specifically nerf gausscats without doing too much to fuck with (for example) a gauss cataphract that wouldn't be mounting them in XL-engine-containing locations.
Low gauss health is already a planned nerf, but it's essentially meaningless for the K2 which is where it's the most overpowered by far. Even when the ears are gone, hitting the LT/RT on a Cat is a pain in the ass, both because it's impossible to tell, visually, where the side sections actually are and because the side sections are so slim. Lowering the gauss health would also make other gauss-using mechs that don't have torso mounts for the weapon even more of glass cannons, to the point where I'd say you'd be over-nerfing the guass just to make one variant balanced.
Or yeah just move the ballistic hardpoints on the K2 to CT or make gauss and AC20 take 2 ballistic hardpoints and adjust chassis like the Atlas so they still work as intended.
This is definitely the most reasonable suggestion I'm seeing. If they moved both ballistic slots to the CT, then the build has two options for ballistics: machine guns or AC/2s. AC/2s could definitely still be useful and effective, but it would be the end of this nonsense where a fire support mech gets to be an awesome brawler and OP mech overall just because of shitty hitboxes and perfect hardpoint placement for maximum gauss effectiveness. That's not to say a K2 can't do good close work at all, but it would have to switch to a weapon load with reasonable drawbacks and that fits more with the intended role of the variant anyway. Nobody would go "oh shit, 2 AC/2s!", but a good pilot would still make good use of them, and LL K2s are still nasty beasties as well. Of course, making PPCs good would also be nice, since then the mech could use the weapons the variant was designed for instead of automatically replacing everything.
And the gauss would still need some balancing as well, but then it can be properly balanced for its own sake instead of overnerfed to make the K2 balanced but the gauss worthless everywhere else or undernerfed to keep it worthwhile on everything else while leaving the K2 simply less overpowered.
What about nerfing the gauss rifle's health and/or buffing the explosion damage when it's destroyed? Would act to specifically nerf gausscats without doing too much to fuck with (for example) a gauss cataphract that wouldn't be mounting them in XL-engine-containing locations.
Or yeah just move the ballistic hardpoints on the K2 to CT or make gauss and AC20 take 2 ballistic hardpoints and adjust chassis like the Atlas so they still work as intended.
I like the idea of moving the hardpoints.
Nerfing the rifle's health/explosion really just hurts every other build that uses gauss to the benefit of gausscats. Gausscats are most OP at long range, where they can snipe without worrying too much about concentrated return fire, and making the guns more fragile won't affect that.
edit: of course I forget to refresh the page before posting, and am thus partially beat'd by Ninja Snarl, who is wholly correct.
Considering how easy it is to point at stuff with a mouse, people tend not to have a problem with looking for a place they want the cursor to go, and then moving there. This is the baseline for shooters.
From there, you can require additional dexterity by having the player track a constantly moving target.
Or some light mental prediction by having that target change based on relevant factors such as momentum or ballistics.
To me, the gauss rifle stands out as lacking much of the challenge all the other weapons have. People tend not to miss with the gauss rifle.
And so, I'd suggest making the gauss rifle fill the role of charge-up-to-fire weapon. It's made challenging to use by combining the need for anticipation
and if the player fails to do that, then the gauss rifle requires the player to track their target as the charge fills up completely for a more satisfying payoff.
Also, if this could be visually indicated, then it suddenly becomes more fun for the opponents as they try to apply any sort of disruption at the point of release.
Yeah, at this point I think fixing SSRMs (which are problematic everywhere but most problematic on the Catapult) and moving the K2's ballistic hardpoints to the CT will go far in fixing the 'mech balance issues.
As far as weapons go, I'd like to see PPCs buffed, ER PPCs buffed more, and large and small pulse lasers tweaked a little. Flamers and MGs obviously need an improvement as well. The LBX AC needs work.
It's probably quicker to list the weapons that are in a good place right now--I'd include the 3 sizes of standard laser, regular SRMs, and LRMs. Most of the ACs aren't too bad; hit detection issues are the biggest problem here. The AC/10 probably needs something to make it a little more competitive vs. the Gauss and AC/20, which are only 3 and 2 tons heavier, respectively.
I'd really love it if MGs and Flamers, even though they're supposed to be infantry weapons, were at least hellish at very, very short range (inside of 30m). They can drop off after that, to the point of being worse than they are now outside of, say, 75-90m, but really up close? It should be worth having them around.
I'd really love it if MGs and Flamers, even though they're supposed to be infantry weapons, were at least hellish at very, very short range (inside of 30m). They can drop off after that, to the point of being worse than they are now outside of, say, 75-90m, but really up close? It should be worth having them around.
Not unless/until collision has been restored. There's enough leg-humping going on now without amazing short-range weapons thrown into the mix.
I'm not sure why they even wasted time *adding* Machineguns...
K2 gauss problem solved, move the ballistic Hardpoints to the arms, job finished... allows them to have slightly more up/down shooting (isn't currently a real problem with cats anyway given there range of movement) and makes it easy to shoot them off at range (LRM's especially have a tendency to rip cat-arms off) also having them in the arms means they'll have to sacrifice armour to the legs/Torso's to armour up the arms or go with less ammo for the gauss...
In this way gauss-cat pilots (like Seruko and me, when i'm not shooting people with four LL in the cockpit (i'm always shooting people with four LL in the cockpit)) won't absolutely shit bricks about their Favourite mechs being 'taken out of the game' but at the same time it makes the gauss-cat's alot more fragile and really reinforces there 'ranged support' roll since if you tried taking this thing into brawl range you'd be ear'd/leg'd in short order.
And this is probably more likely aswell! since PGI has shown they aren't willing to get rid of the gauss-cat (its been around since early beta, so if they were going to not allow K2's to mount gauss it would've happened along time ago).
I'm not sure why they even wasted time *adding* Machineguns...
K2 gauss problem solved, move the ballistic Hardpoints to the arms, job finished... allows them to have slightly more up/down shooting (isn't currently a real problem with cats anyway given there range of movement) and makes it easy to shoot them off at range (LRM's especially have a tendency to rip cat-arms off) also having them in the arms means they'll have to sacrifice armour to the legs/Torso's to armour up the arms or go with less ammo for the gauss...
In this way gauss-cat pilots (like Seruko and me, when i'm not shooting people with four LL in the cockpit (i'm always shooting people with four LL in the cockpit)) won't absolutely shit bricks about their Favourite mechs being 'taken out of the game' but at the same time it makes the gauss-cat's alot more fragile and really reinforces there 'ranged support' roll since if you tried taking this thing into brawl range you'd be ear'd/leg'd in short order.
And this is probably more likely aswell! since PGI has shown they aren't willing to get rid of the gauss-cat (its been around since early beta, so if they were going to not allow K2's to mount gauss it would've happened along time ago).
I'd be fine with moving the ballistic hardpoints to the arms; you'd piss off the MW lore grognards, though. It would also create quite a role overlap with the Cataphract and Jaegermech.
[Edit: On second thought, I'm not sure I want to be an enabler of dual AC/20 + XL engine builds.]
They'd be just as pissed off as moving them to the CT, but who gives a fuck? gameplay should always trump cannon... and anyway, in cannon there is no room for a gauss in the side torso of a cat... since they have size limits so they are pissed off either way you look at it.
And yeah, to be fair i hadn't considered that move would allow ac/20 cats to mount an XL... but would an ac/20 even fit in the arms? i guess i'm going to go check.
edit: Yeah, they *just* fit with no left over space at all... so maybe get rid of one arm slot! oh i don't know, you are making this hard! :sadface:
Heroth on
0
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited November 2012
The biggest problem I have with the ballistic hardpoints going in the Cat arms is that it simply isn't what the mech is built for. A Cat running with PPCs (if they were good) and LLs is still nominally what the mech is supposed to be: fire support with energy weapons. While I don't think a mech should just be completely prohibited from being kitted out in a direction it wasn't intended for, it's important for the sake of variety that mechs are kept within their respective roles. Gauss imbalance issues aside, the Gaussapult was really only okay because there were no heavy ballistic mechs; now we have the Cataphract for that, so the Cat is doing something it shouldn't be doing, and doing it a fair bit better.
Considering that the Gaussapult was effectively a design oversight, I genuinely don't think the K2 should ever be a go-to ballistic variant, especially with the Cataphract now and the Blackjack and Jagermech later on. It's just not the Catapult's job, just like it isn't the Awesome's job to be a scout or a Cicada's job to EVER FUCKING DIE to anything but streaks.
EDIT: That being said, if PGI was just ADAMANT about keeping a Cat that could do ballistics, moving the ballistics to the arms might not be completely unreasonable. Cat ears are super-easy to hit, so it could end up making them not any better or worse than Gaussaphracts and I don't really have any gripes about those in terms of balance.
Ninja Snarl P on
+1
AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
Man, after discovering the Hunchback-IIC is a thing that exists (at least for the Clan), I am so disappointed that there's no possibility to kit one up the same way ingame
They'd be just as pissed off as moving them to the CT, but who gives a fuck? gameplay should always trump cannon... and anyway, in cannon there is no room for a gauss in the side torso of a cat... since they have size limits so they are pissed off either way you look at it.
And yeah, to be fair i hadn't considered that move would allow ac/20 cats to mount an XL... but would an ac/20 even fit in the arms? i guess i'm going to go check.
edit: Yeah, they *just* fit with no left over space at all... so maybe get rid of one arm slot! oh i don't know, you are making this hard! :sadface:
I wouldn't have a huge issues with a K2 dual AC/20 Cat. Rip the arms off and it's neutered. Best case scenario it packs in a couple of MLas in the sides, but then it's just a zombie.
AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
Wait a second, different mechs have access to different engine sizes? I was wondering why my Cataphract had an upper limit of a 255 and my Hunch a 260 when I hear people talking about 300 engines. The hell can't I stuff a bigger engine in these mechs for?
AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
Well that's a cute bug. Play a match with ammo in it and then don't rearm. Notice that your individual ammo slots show a repair status of 75% on them. Now, move one of those ammo to your general inventory and save the mech. It will now 'save' the fact that you have 75% of the ammo for that given amount (since it pools it, but assigns per ton for individual assignments). You are now unable to refill the amount of ammo to the correct ammo/ton amount that 1 ton would give you. In addition, if you move a non-standard amount of ammo (let's say you only have 50 left over SSRM ammo instead of the 100/ton standard) into your torso from your inventory it prompts you that you will have to buy the ammo as you do not have it. But instead of paying for the difference of ammo that you're missing, instead you get to pay for the entire price of the ammo clip.
It can change from variant to variant. I think the maximum is some factor of what the mech has when you buy it, i.e. variants that are faster right when you buy them allow for bigger max engine sizes than the other variants. The 4x is the first different-speed variant that is slower than the standard version of the chassis.
Wait a second, different mechs have access to different engine sizes? I was wondering why my Cataphract had an upper limit of a 255 and my Hunch a 260 when I hear people talking about 300 engines. The hell can't I stuff a bigger engine in these mechs for?
It's limited based on the stock engine the variant comes with. This means that some 'mechs, like the 'phract and the Centi, have different engine limits for different variants, as well.
Man, after discovering the Hunchback-IIC is a thing that exists (at least for the Clan), I am so disappointed that there's no possibility to kit one up the same way ingame
That's cause the IIC has an Ultra AC/20 cannon on each shoulder, and won't even show up till the clans invade, as it is a clan mech.
It also has awful armor for its speed.
TheGerbil on
0
AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
Man, after discovering the Hunchback-IIC is a thing that exists (at least for the Clan), I am so disappointed that there's no possibility to kit one up the same way ingame
That's cause the IIC has an Ultra AC/20 cannon on each shoulder, and won't even show up till the clasn invade, as it is a clan mech.
Yea but, I could imagine I'm one and mount regular AC/20s instead.
Posts
Now that you can get a pair of rifles on a Cataphract, you can see how much impact having those two hard points so close together has on a K2.
All I'm saying is it's not entirely the Gauss Rifle being overpowered, and it's not entirely the K2 chassis at fault either. But put the two together and stuff breaks.
How to play a Streakapult:
A. Is there an enemy in range?
- Yes: Go to B.
- No: Get in range of an enemy -- you're as fast as if not faster than most mechs anyway.
B. Do you have a lock on the enemy?
- Yes: Go to C.
- No: Get a lock by hovering your mouse in the general direction of the enemy.
C. Is the enemy dead yet?
- Yes: Go to A.
- No: Hold down your firing button.
If you want to get really advanced you can... use jumpjets.
That's it.
So the builds that are better than the Gaussapult in closer combat are... other Catapults. And even sticking with medium/long range, what's one of the most versatile, capable platforms for a mech with LRMs? Catapults again.
This sounds like the kind of variety that enhances a gaming experience. Why should anyone run a medium or assault with more balanced hardpoints than a Catapult? Other than, you know, one less Catapult on the other team.
There is a consistent theme with these overpowered cheese builds: negligible need for heat management, minimal need for team coordination, extreme specialization, and minimal complexity of weapon grouping. Those minimized factors happen to be some of the best parts of what make Mechwarrior, Mechwarrior. Arguing against them isn't simply a matter of balancing, but keeping the fun in the game and rewarding people for playing the game like its core mechanics are in fact actually fun, instead of obstacles to overcome to maximize your k/d.
Yeah, I'm not at all saying the gauss isn't overpowered, just that the K2 is what makes it really overpowered. You can at least break the gauss Cataphract's arms in a reasonable amount of time, whereas the Gaussapult has huge shields blocking its extremely narrow side torso sections. And I never get pissed off at seeing somebody toting a single gauss like I do 3 or 6 streaks, simply because that gauss required at least some tradeoffs to mount and requires some skill to use. The Gaussapult just doesn't seem as bad right now because streak Cats are such bullshit, but it's definitely an unbalanced variant.
If they were to balance gauss rifles without addressing the K2's problems at all, then we'd either end up with a totally underpowered gauss situation or the gauss would still stay overpowered on a K2. Both issues should be addressed, but if one or the other isn't addressed tomorrow and streaks do get patched to something reasonable tomorrow, then we'll be patched "up" to where we were something like 2-4 months ago where 2-3 gauss Cats could maul basically everything in short order. It'll still be better than streak Cats, but it also still won't actually be a step forward.
EDIT: And regardless of where somebody may think the majority of the blame is, Gaussapults are flat-out unbalanced. There simply isn't a reasonable argument to the contrary, because their ultra-pinpoint accuracy, high damage, zero heat issues, high protection, and extreme range basically ignore any and all balance elements other builds have to endure. Ironically, Gaussapults are the exact sort of thing which destroys the fiction of the game when common sense is used: they're basically tanks. Heavy front armor, powerful and accurate pinpoint punch, ultra-long range, and can fire endlessly to destroy things way outside their weight class.
Conversely, if I see a streak Cat I'm likely to go, "EVERYONE TARGET THE STREAKAPULT NOW OR WE LOSE THE GAME" or "Fuck me, I need to turn around and start running away from it this instant".
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
e: Or a K2 variant with 2xgun, 2xMLas, 2xLLas?
You could run the cheap-o-phract 1X
5 MLAS
1 Gauss Rifle
DHS
Emma Stone
Repairs are typically in the 40-50k range on a bad match. Not super fast but it does a lot of damage.
The problem is that to balance the K2 they need to either completely remove it (cue massive protest), frankenstein it into something that doesn't even exist in Battletech (cue neckbeards catching on fire from pure rage), or redo the hardpoint system (cue PGI taking a year to implement it and breaking the game so hard it opens a portal to The Abyss). All of these options are pretty much awful, but the best solution may be to just get rid of the fucker entirely and reimburse everyone who owns one.
The K2 was a fringe variant in the first place, and even then it was energy-oriented. Gauss/AC20 Cats are so far removed from the intended design of the chassis it's absurd. And now that we have the Cataphract, which is capable of dual-mounting Gauss in a more balanced setup, there is no legitimate reason for anyone to whine about the hardpoints being moved to a more sensible layout.
so let me get this straight your argument appears to me to be
"this weapon set up is best in class at one range increment, but not so good as to invalidate other weapon arrangements in other classes (ie not on a catapult) so it must be fixed."
12x2 = 24. 24 damage to the center torso... every what three seconds? oh noes 8 dps. Why that's as good as two ac5's! oh no!
I might like to introduce you to say, an atlas who can lumber on up to you and do 80 points of damage to you in an alpha strike about 25 DPS at a similar range or this new guys the cataphract who can poop out 20 DPS and rock you cockpit like the fist of an angry god.
or even an ac20 cat who can just get all of the kills ever any time.
Was that Soggy or Carbon who did all the damage and got all the kills with his ac20 cat that one game in forest, I forget? It went something like this alpha strike ac20 x2, alpha strike ac 20 x2 dead "next" 7 or 8 times in a row.
---
sure streak cat is a thing, and it is pretty good. But it's not so good that everyone has one. It's not so good that it's the only thing people build. The catapult as a platform has a lot of draw backs without taking into account anything else.
the problem with PGI is not that they listen to their fans too little about what to hit with the nerf bat, but that they listen too much.
I don't know why you chose to ignore the part where I said I was only comparing them to items in the same exact class, or why you chose to paraphrase what I said so offensively. Pro tip: Learn to read. I'd highlight it above but you cut it out of your quote for obvious reasons.
"You can be yodeling bear without spending a dime if you get lucky." -> reVerse
"In the grim darkness of the future, we will all be nurses catering to the whims of terrible old people." -> Hacksaw
"In fact, our whole society will be oriented around caring for one very decrepit, very old man on total life support." -> SKFM
I mean, the first time I met a non-white person was when this Vietnamese kid tried to break my legs but that was entirely fair because he was a centreback, not because he was a subhuman beast in some zoo ->yotes
I've tried Quad AC2s, Quad AC5s, AC2s w/ AC5s. All of these seems like they suck. I either have no alpha power or the heat requirements are so high (they are especially high because 4 Autocannons use up a ridiculous amount of tonnage such that you can't subsequently add many heat sinks) that you can't just unload for an extended period of time, and if I can't unload without worrying about my heat then I'd expect that in the time I'm unloading that I'm doing significant damage and not just scratching them.
The only marginal success I've had with the dakkaphract variant is 2 ML, 2 AC/10s but that's not exactly a dakkaphract and defeats the purpose of the variant that's I'm trying to build.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
2. Streakapults are fast as fuck. They either outgun you by a huge margin or have the power to choose whether to engage you.
3. Streakapults can do damage to you without looking at you.
4. Streakapults, in their current form, ensure you are going to have one hell of a time aiming at them to try clipping their ears.
5. Streakapults can hit you in the back while your front is turned toward them, and vice versa.
Most Atlas and Cataphracts I see are not nearly as scary, and certainly not as difficult to avoid.
If you thinking winning close combat in this game is just a matter of who has the most DPS I question your tactical sense.
I'm going to choose to ignore the Goon-esque portion of your response. If you found my paraphrase offensive then you might be a little oversensitive - "rumblings" is kind of light on connotations as far as terms like that go.
I didn't edit out your mention of "this is only in-class" to be a dick, I did it because there IS no compelling reason to look outside of the class if you want to maximize your domination currently. It's a moot point. In terms of sheer "FOCUS THIS TARGET NOW" nothing on the battlefield draws attention like the extended family of Catapult cheese builds.
edit: One other thing... SSRMs do 2.5 damage each, not 2.
I have a Dakkaphract and have finished all the basic XP. The most important thing about the mech is to just accept that you will be slow. If you want to move faster than a stock Atlas this is not the variant for you. You might be able to squeeze in a bigger engine with AC2s but not by a lot. I wouldn't even put in an XL personally, I just got used to the speed. And with stock AC5 ammo being so dirt cheap my repair and rearm costs are very low even when I fire every shot.
It's not a superstar mech like a streakcat. But the thing is a lot of fun. One you get a salvo going the cockpit rock and sheer terror of getting bombarded is at least as important as the DPS.
I upgraded it to endo steel, put in an AMS and 1 ton of AMS ammo then loaded up 4 AC5s and the rest of the weight in ammo. Kept the stock engine. The 10 heat sinks the thing requires you take is more than enough to chain fire that AC5. Given the option I would drop one or two heat sinks for more AC5 ammo even.
In terms of tactics: most important is to chain fire not group fire. Second is just do not even try to shoot at lights or cicadias (unless they are shut down). Waste of ammo. Go after Atlases and mechs that use weapons you have to aim. The cockpit rock from chainfiring AC5s is brutal and makes it really hard to fire back accurately (especially with your own ballistics or gauss). Also keep a little distance from your target. Don't get locked up face to face if possible.
Harsh as it may be, I think I like this idea best. Should be easy to implement, and it will fix the Gausscat.
Either that or change the targeting profile of the mech so its easier to hit the side torso's. Not sure if that would need a model tweak to make the side torso's more visually targettable, or just a tweak for the hitcode like the do for cockpits on some mechs.
Speaking of which, I would really like it if they just standardized all cockpit sizes to one size, or if necessary, just 1 size of cockpit for each class.
MWO: Adamski
The Gaussapult is overpowered. The StreakCat is overpowered. Neither of these is unbeatable, but they both offer huge advantages over every other configuration and, if this were really a competitive game (which it will become if faction warfare is ever implemented), these two builds would completely dominate the metagame.
A build doesn't have to be unbeatable at all ranges to be, on the whole, better. A rifle is inferior to a sword at a range of about two feet, but we still equip most of our military with rifles and not with swords. In the real world there's no longer a meaningful choice about how to equip your troops in that regard--guns beat swords, hands down. Having this kind of imbalance in MWO might be realistic, but it reduces the number of meaningful choices available to players and reduces the complexity of the game.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
Or yeah just move the ballistic hardpoints on the K2 to CT or make gauss and AC20 take 2 ballistic hardpoints and adjust chassis like the Atlas so they still work as intended.
Low gauss health is already a planned nerf, but it's essentially meaningless for the K2 which is where it's the most overpowered by far. Even when the ears are gone, hitting the LT/RT on a Cat is a pain in the ass, both because it's impossible to tell, visually, where the side sections actually are and because the side sections are so slim. Lowering the gauss health would also make other gauss-using mechs that don't have torso mounts for the weapon even more of glass cannons, to the point where I'd say you'd be over-nerfing the guass just to make one variant balanced.
This is definitely the most reasonable suggestion I'm seeing. If they moved both ballistic slots to the CT, then the build has two options for ballistics: machine guns or AC/2s. AC/2s could definitely still be useful and effective, but it would be the end of this nonsense where a fire support mech gets to be an awesome brawler and OP mech overall just because of shitty hitboxes and perfect hardpoint placement for maximum gauss effectiveness. That's not to say a K2 can't do good close work at all, but it would have to switch to a weapon load with reasonable drawbacks and that fits more with the intended role of the variant anyway. Nobody would go "oh shit, 2 AC/2s!", but a good pilot would still make good use of them, and LL K2s are still nasty beasties as well. Of course, making PPCs good would also be nice, since then the mech could use the weapons the variant was designed for instead of automatically replacing everything.
And the gauss would still need some balancing as well, but then it can be properly balanced for its own sake instead of overnerfed to make the K2 balanced but the gauss worthless everywhere else or undernerfed to keep it worthwhile on everything else while leaving the K2 simply less overpowered.
I like the idea of moving the hardpoints.
Nerfing the rifle's health/explosion really just hurts every other build that uses gauss to the benefit of gausscats. Gausscats are most OP at long range, where they can snipe without worrying too much about concentrated return fire, and making the guns more fragile won't affect that.
edit: of course I forget to refresh the page before posting, and am thus partially beat'd by Ninja Snarl, who is wholly correct.
From there, you can require additional dexterity by having the player track a constantly moving target.
Or some light mental prediction by having that target change based on relevant factors such as momentum or ballistics.
To me, the gauss rifle stands out as lacking much of the challenge all the other weapons have. People tend not to miss with the gauss rifle.
And so, I'd suggest making the gauss rifle fill the role of charge-up-to-fire weapon. It's made challenging to use by combining the need for anticipation
and if the player fails to do that, then the gauss rifle requires the player to track their target as the charge fills up completely for a more satisfying payoff.
Also, if this could be visually indicated, then it suddenly becomes more fun for the opponents as they try to apply any sort of disruption at the point of release.
As far as weapons go, I'd like to see PPCs buffed, ER PPCs buffed more, and large and small pulse lasers tweaked a little. Flamers and MGs obviously need an improvement as well. The LBX AC needs work.
It's probably quicker to list the weapons that are in a good place right now--I'd include the 3 sizes of standard laser, regular SRMs, and LRMs. Most of the ACs aren't too bad; hit detection issues are the biggest problem here. The AC/10 probably needs something to make it a little more competitive vs. the Gauss and AC/20, which are only 3 and 2 tons heavier, respectively.
Man, collision can't come back quickly enough.
K2 gauss problem solved, move the ballistic Hardpoints to the arms, job finished... allows them to have slightly more up/down shooting (isn't currently a real problem with cats anyway given there range of movement) and makes it easy to shoot them off at range (LRM's especially have a tendency to rip cat-arms off) also having them in the arms means they'll have to sacrifice armour to the legs/Torso's to armour up the arms or go with less ammo for the gauss...
In this way gauss-cat pilots (like Seruko and me, when i'm not shooting people with four LL in the cockpit (i'm always shooting people with four LL in the cockpit)) won't absolutely shit bricks about their Favourite mechs being 'taken out of the game' but at the same time it makes the gauss-cat's alot more fragile and really reinforces there 'ranged support' roll since if you tried taking this thing into brawl range you'd be ear'd/leg'd in short order.
And this is probably more likely aswell! since PGI has shown they aren't willing to get rid of the gauss-cat (its been around since early beta, so if they were going to not allow K2's to mount gauss it would've happened along time ago).
[Edit: On second thought, I'm not sure I want to be an enabler of dual AC/20 + XL engine builds.]
And yeah, to be fair i hadn't considered that move would allow ac/20 cats to mount an XL... but would an ac/20 even fit in the arms? i guess i'm going to go check.
edit: Yeah, they *just* fit with no left over space at all... so maybe get rid of one arm slot! oh i don't know, you are making this hard! :sadface:
Considering that the Gaussapult was effectively a design oversight, I genuinely don't think the K2 should ever be a go-to ballistic variant, especially with the Cataphract now and the Blackjack and Jagermech later on. It's just not the Catapult's job, just like it isn't the Awesome's job to be a scout or a Cicada's job to EVER FUCKING DIE to anything but streaks.
EDIT: That being said, if PGI was just ADAMANT about keeping a Cat that could do ballistics, moving the ballistics to the arms might not be completely unreasonable. Cat ears are super-easy to hit, so it could end up making them not any better or worse than Gaussaphracts and I don't really have any gripes about those in terms of balance.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
I wouldn't have a huge issues with a K2 dual AC/20 Cat. Rip the arms off and it's neutered. Best case scenario it packs in a couple of MLas in the sides, but then it's just a zombie.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
Blargh
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
It's limited based on the stock engine the variant comes with. This means that some 'mechs, like the 'phract and the Centi, have different engine limits for different variants, as well.
That's cause the IIC has an Ultra AC/20 cannon on each shoulder, and won't even show up till the clans invade, as it is a clan mech.
It also has awful armor for its speed.
Yea but, I could imagine I'm one and mount regular AC/20s instead.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
Let's just say I went from the stock 200 to the 250 standard (255 being max) and I go a whopping 57 kph.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12