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Vampire: The Masquerade, The [Phalla] for Columbus Night : Camarilla* and Neutral victory

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Posts

  • SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    Langly wrote: »
    Langly wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Langly wrote: »
    Here is the deal with voluntary conversions:

    If you accept it, even if you think you will lose, you are paying against your win condition.the choice itself is anti village, which you are supposed to help win above all else

    This grabbed my attention a few days ago, and @Capfalcon best summed up my feelings on it.

    The requirement is not "you have to play to your win condition," that's just how it's usually phrased since it typically is the same as "you have to play to win."

    But in reality, only the second is valid. And it IS super-important


    I'm sad that Malkavians were so scary to the mafia. We were most harmless! :P


    Thanks for running this, Assuran. It was lots of fun :D

    I don't really agree. Phalla is a team game, and playing to your team's win condition is the goal. You're not in it for just you, out that were the case the game wouldn't work the way it does.

    By voluntarily switching teams, you are doing the same thing as crashing your team's ships together. You hurt your original win condition and make it more difficult for your original team to win.

    Phalla isn't a game about personal interest, it's about working as a group to meet a goal.otherwise, villagers would lose if they died, because they personally didn't make it to the end.

    Incorrect. Phalla is not a team game, it is a game of individuals, each seeking their own personal victories. It just so happens that for a great many of those people their goals coincide.

    If you ever intentionally do something that causes you to lose in exchange for helping someone else win, you are seriously harming the integrity of the game, the threads that keep the game together

    Bullshit. Bullshitbullshitbullshit. The goal of a normal vanillager is for the village as a whole to win, not for personal glory. Selfish villagers putting their one survival over the village as a whole has doomed the village in more than one occasion

    steam_sig.png
  • EgosEgos Registered User regular
    Spoit wrote: »
    Talking about backstabs, we really should have killed with solar, eh @egos?

    @spoit

    yeah my early gut feeling list/duna list was 3/5ths right. Which is 60% and had @solar on it. Not too bad.

  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    Spoit wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Langly wrote: »
    Langly wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Langly wrote: »
    Here is the deal with voluntary conversions:

    If you accept it, even if you think you will lose, you are paying against your win condition.the choice itself is anti village, which you are supposed to help win above all else

    This grabbed my attention a few days ago, and @Capfalcon best summed up my feelings on it.

    The requirement is not "you have to play to your win condition," that's just how it's usually phrased since it typically is the same as "you have to play to win."

    But in reality, only the second is valid. And it IS super-important


    I'm sad that Malkavians were so scary to the mafia. We were most harmless! :P


    Thanks for running this, Assuran. It was lots of fun :D

    I don't really agree. Phalla is a team game, and playing to your team's win condition is the goal. You're not in it for just you, out that were the case the game wouldn't work the way it does.

    By voluntarily switching teams, you are doing the same thing as crashing your team's ships together. You hurt your original win condition and make it more difficult for your original team to win.

    Phalla isn't a game about personal interest, it's about working as a group to meet a goal.otherwise, villagers would lose if they died, because they personally didn't make it to the end.

    Incorrect. Phalla is not a team game, it is a game of individuals, each seeking their own personal victories. It just so happens that for a great many of those people their goals coincide.

    If you ever intentionally do something that causes you to lose in exchange for helping someone else win, you are seriously harming the integrity of the game, the threads that keep the game together

    Bullshit. Bullshitbullshitbullshit. The goal of a normal vanillager is for the village as a whole to win, not for personal glory. Selfish villagers putting their one survival over the village as a whole has doomed the village in more than one occasion

    Lookit this correct post right here. Nowhere in the village PM does it (typically) talk about you, personally, surviving.

    Fiaryn on
    Soul Silver FC: 1935 3141 6240
    White FC: 0819 3350 1787
    Rainfall
  • MillMill Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    Yeah, it's nice to survive but if you die and the village wins, you still win. One of the strengths of being vanillager is that you aren't super important, so if you can draw a mafia kill or eat the vote in place of a village special, you should since that buys specials potentially another day to do their things. It's one of the reasons why the village is encouraged to talk, it just doesn't make lying harder, it creates more targets that the network doesn't need to keep alive that the mafia fears.

    Mill on
    Rainfall
  • RainfallRainfall Registered User regular
    There's a reason I am noisy as hell in every phalla I'm in, even without a role. The blinding power of non special village analysis drives the mafia crazy and they start butchering people just because they won't shut up.

    BaidolEgosshalmelokime
  • SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    I get paranoid when the mafia don't kill phyphor

    steam_sig.png
    Egos
  • EgosEgos Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    Rainfall wrote: »
    There's a reason I am noisy as hell in every phalla I'm in, even without a role. The blinding power of non special village analysis drives the mafia crazy and they start butchering people just because they won't shut up.

    Unless they are horrible at it :|
    Spoit wrote: »
    I get paranoid when the mafia don't kill phyphor

    Everyone does.


    Until he does something helpful late game and dies

    Egos on
  • warbanwarban Who the Hoof do you think we are? Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    It's not that phalla isn't a team game it's that the whole design of phalla games is being unsure of who you can really TRUST.

    Arguing about IF PHALLA IS A TEAM GAME IS LIKE ARGUING IF KIME IS MAFIA OR NOT.

    I would never play against my win con though.

    warban on
    ACE ✰ PONY ✰ DETECTIVE!
  • SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    Well if he's like that, kime might be mafia as village

    steam_sig.png
  • AssuranAssuran Is swinging on the Spiral Registered User regular
    I haven't forgotten about role PMs, just been away from the house for a few days. The basic mechanics post explained all the rules, but I'll post the role PMs probably sunday.

  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    survival is not victory

    You completely misinterpreted what I said, Spoit. Not maliciously, I don't think, but misinterpreted nonetheless.

    I said any given player NEEDS to play for their own personal victory. For a villager, that often means playing for the village to win. Survival doesn't matter at all unless you need it to personally win. Being a hero or gaining glory doesn't either.

    It's a "team" only in the sense that there are often other people that share your goals. But they may not always, you may not always have the same goals, and such. And you always shoot for yourself to win (not necessarily survive), even if that means betraying your "team"

    PA HotS Group
    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
    Capfalcon
  • RainfallRainfall Registered User regular
    Egos wrote: »
    Rainfall wrote: »
    There's a reason I am noisy as hell in every phalla I'm in, even without a role. The blinding power of non special village analysis drives the mafia crazy and they start butchering people just because they won't shut up.

    Unless they are horrible at it

    Well... yeah.

  • CapfalconCapfalcon Tunnel Snakes Rule Capital WastelandRegistered User regular
    I'm finding this postgame discussion about the nature of Phalla very enlightening.

    It's very interesting to see people's opinions on the nature of Phalla, and what rules people think move a game from "Phalla" to "Not Phalla."

  • RainfallRainfall Registered User regular
    Not phalla: a game where there is no vote to eliminate a player from the game.

    See: Phallout.

    HeavyVillain
  • SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    Can you clarify how you would work towards your team winning by betraying them?

    steam_sig.png
  • AssuranAssuran Is swinging on the Spiral Registered User regular
    I think Kime's talking about voluntary conversions, but I don't want to put words in his mouth.

    kime
  • SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    Oh are we still on about that?

    steam_sig.png
  • CesareBCesareB Registered User regular
    I think it's funny that we've been talking all this time about this game and yet nobody has mentioned Langly's immense betrayal of everyone's trust...

  • EgosEgos Registered User regular
    probably because Langly's actions aren't particularly surprising

  • AnialosAnialos Collies are love, Collies are life! Shadowbrook ColliesRegistered User regular
    CesareB wrote: »
    I think it's funny that we've been talking all this time about this game and yet nobody has mentioned Langly's immense betrayal of everyone's trust...

    That is for a couple reasons:

    1. Most of us didn't believe his story in the first place, but went along with it because it helped us.
    2. Langly has pulled off some crazy stuff like this before and this doesn't really surprise us.

    "there's sin enough without treating love like a sin"
  • CapfalconCapfalcon Tunnel Snakes Rule Capital WastelandRegistered User regular
    edited November 2012
    Spoit wrote: »
    Can you clarify how you would work towards your team winning by betraying them?

    You wouldn't? Of course, if you would make a decision that would put you on a team that is more likely to win and also reduce your previous team's chances of winning, that's completely different.

    Also, if you are a villager who has a second win condition, are you betraying them if you go after your second win condition instead?

    Capfalcon on
  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Spoit wrote: »
    Oh are we still on about that?

    I was mostly talking about that the entire time :P. I thought it was obvious since that's the quote tree you replied to, sorry. But as Capfalcon just said, if you have a secondary, you have to consider that as well

    PA HotS Group
    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
  • SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    I disagree about the secondary part, if villagers are pursuing their secondary hard enough to impede the whole finding mafia bit, well, then you just have a village full of bedlams

    steam_sig.png
  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Spoit wrote: »
    I disagree about the secondary part, if villagers are pursuing their secondary hard enough to impede the whole finding mafia bit, well, then you just have a village full of bedlams

    Maybe you aren't quite understanding what Bedlam did. Because this isn't the first time his name has come up, and I don't really think its applicable

    PA HotS Group
    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
    Bedlam
  • KaplarKaplar Registered User regular
    I run the vampire conversation into the phalla conversation.

  • KaplarKaplar Registered User regular
    Honestly though, as much shit as people gave him for it, that was the funnest thing to watch as an observer.

    kime
  • CesareBCesareB Registered User regular
    Anialos wrote: »
    CesareB wrote: »
    I think it's funny that we've been talking all this time about this game and yet nobody has mentioned Langly's immense betrayal of everyone's trust...

    That is for a couple reasons:

    1. Most of us didn't believe his story in the first place, but went along with it because it helped us.
    2. Langly has pulled off some crazy stuff like this before and this doesn't really surprise us.

    I didn't mean the lying about his original wincon. That's whatever. I meant that he said he wouldn't spread the info and then totally did. I mean, he even told the mafia.

  • SaberOverEasySaberOverEasy Registered User regular
    Spoit wrote: »
    I disagree about the secondary part, if villagers are pursuing their secondary hard enough to impede the whole finding mafia bit, well, then you just have a village full of bedlams

    I really can't disagree with this enough. Most winning conditions in faction games are "Eliminate all threat and accomplish X." There is no secondary winning condition, there is just a win condition. One of the things about faction games like this is that they are balanced around factions trying to achieve their win conditions, NOT around factions saying "I don't want to win." If you wanted to take a particularly hard stance, the analogy is that any of the Ventrue who weren't actively trying to find a way to vote out Langly were just as guilty of not playing to their win condition as Bedlam was when he crashed the ships.

    Of course, we generally don't take that line. I think that's due to the actual underlying rules in Phalla. While we can argue all day about whether you should play to your current win condition or to win (and I think it's a interesting argument), the real reason all of us play Phalla is to have fun. All of the rules and ethics tend to revolve around finding ways to make Phalla the most fun for the most number of people. It's also why I find the concept of "winning" in phalla to be so interesting. Ultimately, a win con is just something you've been told to do. Playing towards them provides a structure to the game and a closed environment in which to play. All you get for achieving your win con is a notice on a message board and maybe something cool said about you in narration. For me, the actually winning is all of the effort and energy I put into achieving my win con and the obstacles I've overcome. There are plenty of games that I've won that I don't particularly care about. On the other hand, there are several games that I've lost but felt much more proud of. Those are directly due to how much effort I put in and effect I had on those games.

    All that being said, I tend to have more fun when I am winning than when I am losing. I also tend to have more fun when I think the mechanics of a game aren't horribly against me (this is why game balance is important). I also have more fun when I get to talk with others and bounce ideas off of them, hence my generally wide ranging soft networking. Other people will have sligtly different ideas about what is fun in Phalla, and that's absolutely normal. Coming back to Spoit's original statement, the reason we don't castigate the Ventrue (and we did Bedlam) is that they didn't impede our fun. Sure, THEY weren't able to get whatever fun is inherent in a win, but they didn't seem to complain and didn't mind us getting ours.

    And those of us who design faction games will continue to try to find ways to make you kill each other.

    kime
  • oakloreoaklore Registered User regular
    Don't forget, everyone, that if you think your going to die or lose, it's just plain more fun to be converted and potentially screw over the people that put you there. Fuck the police.

    orbit.gif
    KaplarAnialos
  • LanglyLangly Registered User regular
    CesareB wrote: »
    Anialos wrote: »
    CesareB wrote: »
    I think it's funny that we've been talking all this time about this game and yet nobody has mentioned Langly's immense betrayal of everyone's trust...

    That is for a couple reasons:

    1. Most of us didn't believe his story in the first place, but went along with it because it helped us.
    2. Langly has pulled off some crazy stuff like this before and this doesn't really surprise us.

    I didn't mean the lying about his original wincon. That's whatever. I meant that he said he wouldn't spread the info and then totally did. I mean, he even told the mafia.

    The only person I gave village info at the beginning of the game was fiaryn, after i revealed, for the explicit purpose of finding mafia because I knew nothing about the setting and needed help. That just turned out to be giving the info to the mafia. I was taking a chance because I wasnt sure how long I would last and the info would be crucial for finding bad guys.

    I didn't give clan info out until really late in the game, when the tremere needed help, who I had to help because baidol was the seer who was helping me get all the mafia.

    which actually only hurt me, since it gave them my masons.

  • LanglyLangly Registered User regular
    And in any case at that point in the game was directing all of the vigs anyway, clans couldn't really fight a huge amount.

  • CapfalconCapfalcon Tunnel Snakes Rule Capital WastelandRegistered User regular
    Spoit wrote: »
    I disagree about the secondary part, if villagers are pursuing their secondary hard enough to impede the whole finding mafia bit, well, then you just have a village full of bedlams

    Well, I didn't say secondary; I said second win condition. 'Cause that's how voluntary conversions work, basicly. You're given two wincons, and then you have to choose one to follow.

  • CesareBCesareB Registered User regular
    Langly wrote: »
    Langly wrote: »
    CesareB wrote: »
    Anialos wrote: »
    CesareB wrote: »
    I think it's funny that we've been talking all this time about this game and yet nobody has mentioned Langly's immense betrayal of everyone's trust...

    That is for a couple reasons:

    1. Most of us didn't believe his story in the first place, but went along with it because it helped us.
    2. Langly has pulled off some crazy stuff like this before and this doesn't really surprise us.

    I didn't mean the lying about his original wincon. That's whatever. I meant that he said he wouldn't spread the info and then totally did. I mean, he even told the mafia.

    The only person I gave village info at the beginning of the game was fiaryn, after i revealed, for the explicit purpose of finding mafia because I knew nothing about the setting and needed help. That just turned out to be giving the info to the mafia. I was taking a chance because I wasnt sure how long I would last and the info would be crucial for finding bad guys.

    I didn't give clan info out until really late in the game, when the tremere needed help, who I had to help because baidol was the seer who was helping me get all the mafia.

    which actually only hurt me, since it gave them my masons.

    It hurt the malkavians more than it hurt you. Yeah, we killed your masons, but in a sense that further established your credibility. The malkavians, on the other hand, were killed off entirely despite being the most secretive clan.

    Also, what horrible luck that you shared your master list with only 1 person and they ended up being mafia :P

  • SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    Wait, how come rainfall seemed to have the list too then?

    steam_sig.png
  • facetiousfacetious a wit so dry it shits sandRegistered User regular
    Spoit wrote: »
    Bullshit. Bullshitbullshitbullshit. The goal of a normal vanillager is for the village as a whole to win, not for personal glory. Selfish villagers putting their one survival over the village as a whole has doomed the village in more than one occasion
    [/quote]

    Concur. I've always put the team's win above my own survival. That's one reason I tend to be very loud when I'm a vanillager, because I don't feel like I'm important enough that it matters if I survive or not, but hopefully provoking discussion will help reveal things.

    (Not that this necessarily works as I intend it to, but that's my logic. :P)

    "I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde
    Real strong, facetious.

    Steam: Chagrin LoL: Bonhomie
  • facetiousfacetious a wit so dry it shits sandRegistered User regular
    Egos wrote: »
    Rainfall wrote: »
    There's a reason I am noisy as hell in every phalla I'm in, even without a role. The blinding power of non special village analysis drives the mafia crazy and they start butchering people just because they won't shut up.

    Unless they are horrible at it :|

    Yo.

    "I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde
    Real strong, facetious.

    Steam: Chagrin LoL: Bonhomie
    Egos
  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    Spoit wrote: »
    Wait, how come rainfall seemed to have the list too then?

    That would be because of me. I gave the Toreador a list of their foes to foment inter-village chaos.

    Soul Silver FC: 1935 3141 6240
    White FC: 0819 3350 1787
  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    edited November 2012
    facetious wrote: »
    Spoit wrote: »
    Bullshit. Bullshitbullshitbullshit. The goal of a normal vanillager is for the village as a whole to win, not for personal glory. Selfish villagers putting their one survival over the village as a whole has doomed the village in more than one occasion

    Concur. I've always put the team's win above my own survival. That's one reason I tend to be very loud when I'm a vanillager, because I don't feel like I'm important enough that it matters if I survive or not, but hopefully provoking discussion will help reveal things.

    (Not that this necessarily works as I intend it to, but that's my logic. :P)

    Survive =/= win

    kime on
    PA HotS Group
    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
  • WhiteZinfandelWhiteZinfandel Registered User regular
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Spoit wrote: »
    Wait, how come rainfall seemed to have the list too then?

    That would be because of me. I gave the Toreador a list of their foes to foment inter-village chaos.

    Hahaha shit that's awesome. I wish I had been a bit more in the loop and not torpored.

    I have a complete set of the Venture Bros. Season 7 t-shirt club medium-size t-shirts for sale. PM me if you're interested.
    kime
  • EgosEgos Registered User regular
    facetious wrote: »
    Egos wrote: »
    Rainfall wrote: »
    There's a reason I am noisy as hell in every phalla I'm in, even without a role. The blinding power of non special village analysis drives the mafia crazy and they start butchering people just because they won't shut up.

    Unless they are horrible at it :|

    Yo.

    You were doing so well ...then you went off in the wrong direction in ahava's game :( Or you forgot to include one crucial line.

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