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Airing Of Grievances In Public Conversation Form (Potentially NSFW or NSF56K)

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    FuruFuru Registered User regular
    The bit where he gets defensive when someone applies the same standard to his work is a great sign of how full of shit he is

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    FuruFuru Registered User regular
    aaaand probably spoke too soon

    9LibZRZ.png

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    MunchMunch Registered User regular
    Those are some good points, Tex. I don't know Brian Wood from Adam, but it is sort of brazen to call Wood out on how feministy he may or may not be.

    I took Graham's remarks more having to do with writers being considered higher on the totem pole than artists in general, not just a gender thing. I tend to agree with him, in that writers do have a higher profile, call more of the shots, and tend to command more influence than their graphical co-workers. Which kind of sucks, for artists. I mean, let's be honest. Comics are not a business of imminent wealth, even less so if you're doing the drawing. It's simply more feasible for a writer to have a lot of different project bubbling with lots of different artists for this and that, and I just don't see how that will be changing anytime soon. There's room to argue which job is easier at the end of the day, but if you're a writer and I'm an artist, I know which one of us is going to be doing more revisions before the work is completed.

    I don't think it's that crazy, when you look at it in the context of statements Graham's made in the past, about diversity in comics.

    For instance, he's expressed frustration that guys like James Stokoe and Corey Lewis, two friends of his mind you, are regarded as the "hip hop" guys in comics, and they're both white.

    Wood's the same thing. For years, he was the "feminist" guy in comics, because he wrote Local, Supermarket, Channel Zero, and New York Four/New York Five, all of which starred women, but were written and drawn by men.

    Where his point gets muddled, and he probably should have just sidestepped the question, was about Wood working with female creators on his books, and the general roles of writers and artists in comics. Because while it's true, it's not like Wood pulled from unknowns. Cloonan's been doing work in comics for ages, and Doyle had already been published by Marvel, and had established a substantial internet presence.

    Meanwhile, all Graham had to say was, "Hey, see all those back-ups in Prophet, made by a wide assortment of people who have never been published in mainstream comics? There's my commitment to diversity."

    I dunno, Graham's fired shots at Wood before, for similar issues. My guess is he just doesn't like the dude.

    If nothing else, I'm glad the guy's honest about his feelings. He's never really shied away from talking about people he had off-putting interactions with.

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    Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Aw, man. That Brandon Graham thing just disappoints the hell out of me.

    EDIT:

    Actually. I think it might be best to walk off this one. This Twitter feed thing is...well, I'm less convinced it is what it's being described as. There's a fucking WORLD of difference between "Women can't draw a macho hero pulp thing for boys," to what he actually said, which was:

    Prophet is specifically a teenage boy conan power fantasy style book so initially I looked for artists who did work like that.


    Now, if you want to damn him for not having a female artist in the main story thus far (he does mention female artists doing some work in the backup material for Prophet) that seems off to me. I would think if someone has some criticisms about the industry and the gender gap, they can make those criticisms without at the same time having some kind of satisfactory backlog of collaboration. I mean, don't get me wrong, that would certainly help, but I think it's an unsettling precedent for people to have some kind of resume of deeds before they can express an opinion about the business they're in.

    It's a convoluted discussion about Brian Wood, feminism, and the comic industry on Twitter, for crying out loud. People showing up, saying one thing, then disappearing again. Traded snippets, offhand references to other things not fully outlined, to say nothing of it being reported on Bleeding Cool, where everything has to bleed.

    None of this is particularly damning, and you guys had me on like Graham was going all Frank Miller on somebody.

    That twitter reads like he can't have a make a "teenage boy conan power fantasy book" unless the artist is a guy which is bullshit. He might not be Frank Miller but he's a dick.

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    jkylefultonjkylefulton Squid...or Kid? NNID - majpellRegistered User regular
    Big shock that a profession involving ong hours of working by yourself would be attractive to people who are socially retarded. Best to separate the work from the creator, IMO.

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    AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    Furu wrote: »
    aaaand probably spoke too soon

    9LibZRZ.png

    whoooof

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    BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    who is that about?

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    MunchMunch Registered User regular
    Brian Wood.

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    BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    that's disappointing

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    OK so does that give credence to Wood being misogynistic or not?

    I'M NOT FINISHED WITH YOU!!!
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    Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    It certainly validates not liking the guy, but I don't think it says anything about his art.

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    wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    edited October 2013
    It certainly validates not liking the guy, but I don't think it says anything about his art.

    I thought he was only a writer?

    OK nevermind, didn't know he both wrote and drew DMZ.

    wirehead26 on
    I'M NOT FINISHED WITH YOU!!!
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    Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    Well, a writer's writing is their art.

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    Linespider5Linespider5 ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGER Registered User regular
    I'd love to know some examples of people in comics who have been verified as terrible people but still get respect for making amazing work.

    It's always seemed to me public perception of the creators plays a big part in how much people like a given book.

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    BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    I'd love to know some examples of people in comics who have been verified as terrible people but still get respect for making amazing work.

    It's always seemed to me public perception of the creators plays a big part in how much people like a given book.

    Alan Moore?

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    MunchMunch Registered User regular
    Yeah, I'll fully cop to dismissing someone's work, if they're a dick.

    Because really, why do I want to support a dick?

    Meanwhile, if I do like someone as a human being, I'll go out of my way to support their work.
    Balefuego wrote: »
    I'd love to know some examples of people in comics who have been verified as terrible people but still get respect for making amazing work.

    It's always seemed to me public perception of the creators plays a big part in how much people like a given book.

    Alan Moore?

    I don't really think of Alan Moore as behaving like a dick. Dismissing a bunch of people's work, which he's never read, is kind of crummy, but he's also always participating in charities, told Marvel to give his share of the Marvelman money to an ailing Mick Anglo, and passed large sums of money along to his collaborators.

    He's a crotchety guy, but he also seems highly principled.

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    UnbrokenEvaUnbrokenEva HIGH ON THE WIRE BUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered User regular
    I'd love to know some examples of people in comics who have been verified as terrible people but still get respect for making amazing work.

    It's always seemed to me public perception of the creators plays a big part in how much people like a given book.

    a lot of people still seem to like Frank Miller's work even though he's a racist asshole

    and Mark Millar's work still sells like hotcakes even though half to two-thirds of it is violently misogynistic

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    TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    I remember reading about how Alex Ross is a dick but he's always in demand.

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    BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    John Byrne is a huge asshole too I'm pretty sure

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    Fearghaill wrote: »
    I'd love to know some examples of people in comics who have been verified as terrible people but still get respect for making amazing work.

    It's always seemed to me public perception of the creators plays a big part in how much people like a given book.

    a lot of people still seem to like Frank Miller's work even though he's a racist asshole

    and Mark Millar's work still sells like hotcakes even though half to two-thirds of it is violently misogynistic

    this is a little bit different because in those cases we're talking about the content of the books themselves. Brian Wood is not known for writing misogynistic stuff, quite the opposite actually so that's where the whole "divorcing the creator from their work" thing comes in.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    RalgRalg Registered User regular
    Balefuego wrote: »
    John Byrne is a has been whose work hasn't aged well at all

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    wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    Oh man John Byrne and his alleged "reprint" stamp.

    I'M NOT FINISHED WITH YOU!!!
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    Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited October 2013
    Ralg wrote: »
    Balefuego wrote: »
    John Byrne is a has been whose work hasn't aged well at all

    His classic X-men run is still pretty good. Its his recent material that's terrible, he's like Claremont.
    Balefuego wrote: »
    Fearghaill wrote: »
    I'd love to know some examples of people in comics who have been verified as terrible people but still get respect for making amazing work.

    It's always seemed to me public perception of the creators plays a big part in how much people like a given book.

    a lot of people still seem to like Frank Miller's work even though he's a racist asshole

    and Mark Millar's work still sells like hotcakes even though half to two-thirds of it is violently misogynistic

    this is a little bit different because in those cases we're talking about the content of the books themselves. Brian Wood is not known for writing misogynistic stuff, quite the opposite actually so that's where the whole "divorcing the creator from their work" thing comes in.

    We're not talking about his work it's how he goes about it behind the scenes and his behavior interacting with fans.

    Harry Dresden on
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    BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    Try to read the whole quote tree next time

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    Pfft Context is for suckers!

    Steam! Battlenet:Wisemantobes#1508
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    Linespider5Linespider5 ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGER Registered User regular
    Not entirely a grievance, but I just want to add that it is god damned hard to make a proper Darkseid Jack-o-Lantern.
    But once you light up his eyes, it is totally worth it.

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    UnbrokenEvaUnbrokenEva HIGH ON THE WIRE BUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered User regular
    Pics or gtfo

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    Linespider5Linespider5 ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGER Registered User regular
    edited October 2013
    blogger-image-418011337.jpg

    "The Emptiness Shaped Like God"

    Eh, maybe I should take the skin off the nose. It's a little distracting like that.

    Linespider5 on
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    RalgRalg Registered User regular
    edited October 2013
    Ralg wrote: »
    Balefuego wrote: »
    John Byrne is a has been whose work hasn't aged well at all

    His classic X-men run is still pretty good. Its his recent material that's terrible, he's like Claremont.
    Balefuego wrote: »
    Fearghaill wrote: »
    I'd love to know some examples of people in comics who have been verified as terrible people but still get respect for making amazing work.

    It's always seemed to me public perception of the creators plays a big part in how much people like a given book.

    a lot of people still seem to like Frank Miller's work even though he's a racist asshole

    and Mark Millar's work still sells like hotcakes even though half to two-thirds of it is violently misogynistic

    this is a little bit different because in those cases we're talking about the content of the books themselves. Brian Wood is not known for writing misogynistic stuff, quite the opposite actually so that's where the whole "divorcing the creator from their work" thing comes in.

    We're not talking about his work it's how he goes about it behind the scenes and his behavior interacting with fans.

    I honestly disagree with your assessment of Byrne/Claremont's classic X-men run.

    Ralg on
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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Byrne and Claremont made modern comics with that run

    the fact that Byrne, as TLB once put it "never wrote about a woman he didn't want to lift off the floor by their neck with one hand" doesn't change that

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    noir_bloodnoir_blood Registered User regular
    This isn't so much a grievance, but I do feel weird about it-

    Comicalliance has a new feature called 'Hire this woman!' and there's something about it that bugs me. I'm sure they only have the best of intentions, but I think I would have preferred something more like "Hire this talent' kinda thing. And even then, the way they start off the thing makes it sort of see like they know better than editors who, you know, it's their jobs to find talent.

    There's also a lack of diversity in comics when it comes to race. Does that mean we'll get a 'Hire this minority' column next?

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    CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    God willing.


    Just because it's part of their jobs doesn't mean that comics editors do it well. In fact when it comes to DC and Marvel editors hiring people who don't look just like them it's a fucking disgrace.

    Crimsondude on
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    SorceSorce Not ThereRegistered User regular
    noir_blood wrote: »
    This isn't so much a grievance, but I do feel weird about it-

    Comicalliance has a new feature called 'Hire this woman!' and there's something about it that bugs me. I'm sure they only have the best of intentions, but I think I would have preferred something more like "Hire this talent' kinda thing. And even then, the way they start off the thing makes it sort of see like they know better than editors who, you know, it's their jobs to find talent.
    This (or at least something spawning from this) must be why Simone was tweeting yesterday about how she's not DC's "token" when it comes to the writing staff.

    sig.gif
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    SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    wirehead26 wrote: »
    OK so does that give credence to Wood being misogynistic or not?

    It doesn't at all. It's also a pretty baseless accusation.

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    Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    noir_blood wrote: »
    This isn't so much a grievance, but I do feel weird about it-

    Comicalliance has a new feature called 'Hire this woman!' and there's something about it that bugs me. I'm sure they only have the best of intentions, but I think I would have preferred something more like "Hire this talent' kinda thing. And even then, the way they start off the thing makes it sort of see like they know better than editors who, you know, it's their jobs to find talent.

    There's also a lack of diversity in comics when it comes to race. Does that mean we'll get a 'Hire this minority' column next?

    Yeah, I do feel like it's condescending to fixate on the fact that a talent is a woman and gallantly swoop in to rescue her from obscurity.

    Give a spotlight to women and minorities, sure, but single them out for their talent rather than their physical features.

    That isn't to say that the Big Two shouldn't focus on making themselves more diverse, though. I just don't think it's helpful to associate specific talent with those campaigns, because it does make them seem like tokens even if they have real skills

    Robos A Go Go on
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    durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    I think the general conception that you need to overcome being seen as a token, and the associated defense that "we just hire the best talent" are issues in and of themselves.

    I'm less concerned with whether or not some action may be construed as tokenism on the part of enormous corporate entities than I am with people who are not white and male getting a shot at working in comics.

    Take a moment to donate what you can to Critical Resistance and Black Lives Matter.
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    TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    I guess the argument for the article as is is that it's written by a woman, and ducks fly together. *Cue We Will Rock You*

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    CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    Sorce wrote: »
    noir_blood wrote: »
    This isn't so much a grievance, but I do feel weird about it-

    Comicalliance has a new feature called 'Hire this woman!' and there's something about it that bugs me. I'm sure they only have the best of intentions, but I think I would have preferred something more like "Hire this talent' kinda thing. And even then, the way they start off the thing makes it sort of see like they know better than editors who, you know, it's their jobs to find talent.
    This (or at least something spawning from this) must be why Simone was tweeting yesterday about how she's not DC's "token" when it comes to the writing staff.

    Could've fooled me.


    Wal-Mart is one of the most diverse corporations and specifically law firms I can think of (400+ lawyers in its counsel's office makes that office a firm for all intents and purposes). That is a global strategy the largest corporation in the world makes in hiring, and it's worked out pretty well for their legal dept. No one bitches about their overt and affirmative diversity hiring activities.

    The least global media corporations could do is, if not tell stories about people who look like all of America or all the world, is to at least hire a couple of people who don't look like all the white men they keep telling those stories about for whenever the rare and meddlesome nonwhite or god forbid female characters dare open their mouths they don't come off as completely useless or offensive.

    Crimsondude on
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    Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited November 2013
    Sorce wrote: »
    noir_blood wrote: »
    This isn't so much a grievance, but I do feel weird about it-

    Comicalliance has a new feature called 'Hire this woman!' and there's something about it that bugs me. I'm sure they only have the best of intentions, but I think I would have preferred something more like "Hire this talent' kinda thing. And even then, the way they start off the thing makes it sort of see like they know better than editors who, you know, it's their jobs to find talent.
    This (or at least something spawning from this) must be why Simone was tweeting yesterday about how she's not DC's "token" when it comes to the writing staff.

    Now you mention it how many women writers does DC employ?

    Harry Dresden on
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    TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    3 that I know of.

    Nocenti, Simone, and that lady who's writing sorry/not sorry Lobo.

This discussion has been closed.