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Airing Of Grievances In Public Conversation Form (Potentially NSFW or NSF56K)

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    noir_bloodnoir_blood Registered User regular
    Yeah, dislike Simone for her writing all you want, but one look at her twitter account or tumblr shows that she really cares, and is one of the few creators that constantly reaches out to readers.

    I mean, at times I honestly find THAT a bit offputting weirdly enough, in that she's always embroiled in one cause or another, so maybe that's where you're coming from.

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    GaslightGaslight Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Simone projects a certain sanctimony. But I really don't care about any of her work one way or the other.

    Gaslight on
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    BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    Her Birds of Prey was mostly awesome

    Her Batgirl is not

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Agreed

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    sweetcreamscoopssweetcreamscoops Registered User regular
    I guess what gets me is that she gets credited for caring and reaching out to fans, but things like the newsarama interview shows me that she's willing to turn her back on the same people that she supposedly defends if it's convenient. I mean, hell, it's pretty obvious that she wanted babara as batgirl, she's probably even said as much. But if she honestly cared about paraplegic people, she would have respected them and fought for her to remain oracle, not write the book herself. Then when the reasonably pissed off handicapped women says that people are pissed, turn it into how bab's paralysis was a women in refrigerator moment. If she's really against bab's being in a chair because it's sexist then just retcon killing joke(like she already did) and make her lose her legs another way. When Ryan Choi died, she said she was upset about it because there are so few Asian heroes. Saying that and then doing this, makes me feel that she's completely twofaced and is willing to fight for diversity only when it doesn't interfere with her own desires.

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    noir_bloodnoir_blood Registered User regular
    It doesn't work that way.

    Simone doesn't just get to say "I'm going to make Barbara loose her legs and become Oracle again, okay?" Most of the time, that type of stuff has to be run through by editors, who then have to run it by higher ups to make sure that the writer's idea doesn't conflict with the vision that the company has for the character.

    Whether she wanted Barbara as Batgirl or not is kinda moot, because it was gonna happen no matter what. In fact, there's actually been several interviews with Simone saying that she ended up taking Batgirl on because she figured that if the whole reboot was gonna happen, she should at least try to steer the comic right(though apparently that hasn't really worked out that way).

    Same thing with Ryan Choi. His death happened during a string of other legacy character's deaths that seemed to point at DC clearing house and bringing back the originals.

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    AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    okay, this is worth bitching about

    Kotobukiya is one of those creepy bishoujo statue companies that make the anime heroines that we all know and loathe

    they released a preview image of their Wonder Woman...which is a butt shot

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    ElderlycrawfishElderlycrawfish Registered User regular
    Maybe they just wanted to highlight the intricate braiding on her lasso. Which I clearly noticed first and foremost and not once noticed the butt right there. Nope, what butt?

    ......yeah, no it's totally a gratuitous butt shot. Commence bitching!

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    CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    noir_blood wrote: »
    thing with Ryan Choi. His death happened during a string of other legacy character's deaths that seemed to point at DC clearing house and bringing back the originals.

    Original white male characters.

    Crimsondude on
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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    effing DC

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    sweetcreamscoopssweetcreamscoops Registered User regular
    noir_blood wrote: »
    Whether she wanted Barbara as Batgirl or not is kinda moot, because it was gonna happen no matter what. In fact, there's actually been several interviews with Simone saying that she ended up taking Batgirl on because she figured that if the whole reboot was gonna happen, she should at least try to steer the comic right(though apparently that hasn't really worked out that way).

    Same thing with Ryan Choi. His death happened during a string of other legacy character's deaths that seemed to point at DC clearing house and bringing back the originals.

    I'm just saying I find it hypocritical to complain about lack of diversity then help contribute to it, and that excuses like; I wanted to steer it in the right direction, comics need more handicapped characters just not this one, and I have to think about the handicapped people that want her out of the chair too, just don't cut it for me. But, let's just agree to disagree, don't want to start a fight over this or anything. Sorry, if I sounded dickish.

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    cshadow42cshadow42 Registered User regular
    My impression is that since the new 52 DC Launch, Gail Simone has been severely hampered in her writing, and having a lot of editorial oversight. Then again, I deeply miss Secret Six.

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    BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    noir_blood wrote: »
    thing with Ryan Choi. His death happened during a string of other legacy character's deaths that seemed to point at DC clearing house and bringing back the originals.

    Original white male characters.

    To be fair, Ryan Choi is the Atom in the new 52 and Ray Palmer is retired.

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    vagrant_windsvagrant_winds Overworked Mysterious Eldritch Horror Hunter XX Registered User regular
    Ray Palmer is just retired from being The Atom. He's been in Frankenstein as himself.

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    CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    cshadow42 wrote: »
    My impression is that since the new 52 DC Launch, Gail Simone has been severely hampered in her writing, and having a lot of editorial oversight. Then again, I deeply miss Secret Six.

    That's been a recurring complaint from ex-New 52 writers—that it's editorial-driven, but editorial has its head so far up its own ass they don't know which way is up and so they either make no decisions or a billion conflicting decisions.

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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    cshadow42 wrote: »
    My impression is that since the new 52 DC Launch, Gail Simone has been severely hampered in her writing, and having a lot of editorial oversight. Then again, I deeply miss Secret Six.

    I miss early Secret Six, certainly

    it was dropping in quality before the end, though, as well as having a whole bunch of haphazard interludes that didn't seem to make much sense, like the old west arc

    Simone seems to have lost some of her touch, Batgirl and Firestorm were both, well

    kind of bad

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    TexiKenTexiKen Dammit! That fish really got me!Registered User regular
    If Diane Nelson moves on to something else at Time Warner like is rumored, that's going to suck even more. Mainly because it would make the DCnU look like it was an even more impulsive thing, as though Didio was trying to impress the new girl at school. Hey babe, who has two thumbs and can just reboot iconic comic characters on a whim? This guy.

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    ArrynArryn Ask not the Innkeeper For destiny is thy name!Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    noir_blood wrote: »
    Whether she wanted Barbara as Batgirl or not is kinda moot, because it was gonna happen no matter what. In fact, there's actually been several interviews with Simone saying that she ended up taking Batgirl on because she figured that if the whole reboot was gonna happen, she should at least try to steer the comic right(though apparently that hasn't really worked out that way).

    Same thing with Ryan Choi. His death happened during a string of other legacy character's deaths that seemed to point at DC clearing house and bringing back the originals.

    I'm just saying I find it hypocritical to complain about lack of diversity then help contribute to it, and that excuses like; I wanted to steer it in the right direction, comics need more handicapped characters just not this one, and I have to think about the handicapped people that want her out of the chair too, just don't cut it for me. But, let's just agree to disagree, don't want to start a fight over this or anything. Sorry, if I sounded dickish.

    As soon as comic companies put any of the male heroes who magically escaped out of wheelchairs back in them, like John Stewart, Guy Gardner, Charles Xavier, on and on, I'll start buying the diversity argument for Batgirl.

    Otherwise, for me, when she's in the chair, she's just another example of how different rules apply to female and male heroes.

    Arryn on
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    sweetcreamscoopssweetcreamscoops Registered User regular
    Yeah, at least now she's just a horribly written character that matters to no one.

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    vagrant_windsvagrant_winds Overworked Mysterious Eldritch Horror Hunter XX Registered User regular
    My problem with Babsgirl is that she's better as Oracle while Casandra and Stephanie were much better Batgirls.

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    SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Yeah pretty much

    Babs was great as Oracle

    Steph was great as Batgirl

    they made a great team together as well!
    Cass can fuck off

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    ArrynArryn Ask not the Innkeeper For destiny is thy name!Registered User regular
    Yeah, at least now she's just a horribly written character that matters to no one.

    Sales figures say otherwise, but ya know, whatever.

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    sweetcreamscoopssweetcreamscoops Registered User regular
    Is it really fair to bring up sales? She's in a bat family book, a recently rebooted universe, and has been tied to two Batman events. I'm pretty sure anyone's sales would be good with those things behind it.

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    ArrynArryn Ask not the Innkeeper For destiny is thy name!Registered User regular
    The issue raised was whether she mattered to anyone. And whether or not you can attribute it to any of the reasons you mentioned (bat-book, reboot, etc) she apparently matters to a good number of consumers/fans each month.

    Comics is a vote with your wallet industry. Every time money hits the counter for a book, someone is saying "this book matters enough to me that I want to see it continue."

    Now, if we want to establish a different criteria for measuring whether or not a character "matters", that's a different story.

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    sweetcreamscoopssweetcreamscoops Registered User regular
    I meant matters as in being inspirational to people. You can argue that she inspires women because she is a female character but she already was that, not to mention far more useful and important to the greater DC universe. Saying that she shouldn't be in the chair because other men can walk again misses the point. Being paralyzed made her something better than she already was, and showed that paralyzed people's lives arn't over just because of the inability to use their legs. Making her take a possibly fatal operation to gain her legs back is stupid and undermines the message of the character. She isn't helping women, she's fucking over paraplegics.

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    CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    Well, she could have gone back to whatever community she knew as disabled and help them out because she knows exactly what it's like to be paraplegic for years. I don't know.

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    cshadow42cshadow42 Registered User regular
    My guess is that Gail Simone didn't have much of a say in Barbara coming back as Batgirl. That is the kind of thing that smacks of editorial. We probably won't know the truth until Gail Simone leaves DC, because she's been pretty good about being a "team player" and not telling tales. Unlike SOME writers we know.

    Now, I haven't read any of the recent Batgirl (darn lay-off and no job), so I can't say what the current quality is like. But I have consistently enjoyed Gail Simone over the years, and I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.

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    CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    It's clear Babs walking is a top-level decision.

    But that doesn't make the claim that she took it on to protect the brand or something any less hubristic.

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    sweetcreamscoopssweetcreamscoops Registered User regular
    Okay, as the person who started this, can we please stop and agree to disagree. Before someone (probably me) says something stupid.

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    SneaksSneaks Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    EDIT: Never mind.

    Sneaks on
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    Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    noir_blood wrote: »
    Kyougu wrote: »
    Yeah, DP seems like a goofy, fun book but it's not what I want out of the character.



    Also, I'm once again going to bitch about Simone's awesome run still not being collected.

    I've bitched about this a couple of times, but here I go again- I really don't get why Marvel hasn't collected her run. It never was collected originally, and back when they were doing the 'Classic' TPB, they stopped almost just before it. The new previews shows they picked up the TPBS again, so if they continue, they're going to have to get to her run on Vol. 9, which would come out around March or April. But that's what I was thinking would happen before.

    I thought that the newsarama DP review nailed why I'm not enjoying the current run
    What's worse than beating a dead horse? In the case of Deadpool, beating a dead president.

    Now in its third issue, the joke has worn thin, with the endless violence not being half the hook that Brian Poehsn and Gerry Duggan think it is. As Deadpool teams up with Doctor Strange to wage war against a horde of zombie presidents, nothing about this story screams Deadpool. It's simply punch after punch, tired joke after tired joke. (Except for Doctor Strange saying "Illusion, Michael! Tricks are for prostitutes." I'll admit, you got me with the Arrested Development line, Brian and Gerry. But that says something about the level of humor here.)

    The real problem behind this comic is that Poeshn and Duggan don't write visually, they write verbally, essentially leaving artist Tony Moore in something of a hostage situation. Moore has a lot going for him, particularly his sleek, cartoony character designs. But it's all wasted on caricatured presidents and plotting that's way too light.

    There's no direction here under all these verbose panels, so Moore's got to sort of make up the staging as he goes along — and that feels about as deliberate as it sounds. The few out-and-out action beats (that don't include punching or stabbing) still feel frustratingly vague, with the exception of one splash page that makes Strange more of a focus than Wade himself. Combine it with some garish blues, purples and greens from Val Staples, and the art is at war with itself.

    When your guest stars feel more at home with the plot than your main character (and is essentially giving your hero the actual tools they need to succeed), I'd argue something has gone wrong with your story. Deadpool could have been a wicked funny grindhouse sort of story, but instead it's a sort of tired Bugs Bunny-meets-zombies kick. The jokes don't make you laugh, the action doesn't make you gasp, the character doesn't make you care. This one might be too much for even the Regeneratin' Degenerate to come back from.

    I'm not the biggest C&D fan, but at least that run showed that DP was more than just a buffoon and tried to insert some mythos to the character.

    C & D and Kelly's Deadpool runs are my definite takes on Deadpool. Though I did like Priest's and Simone's Deadpool.
    Well, what really sets me off about her was that newsarama interview where she basically just talked at the the handicapped interviewer who was clearly distressed about babs walking again. It felt like she didn't care about the people that lost a one of the only characters that represented them in comics, that showed them that they are just as important as able bodied people. All while she preaches about diversity, it just comes off as phony. To top that off, batgirl has been really crappy, so in the end everything sucks.

    That's odd. I'd have never suspected Simone to do that. She's generally really good about the vulnerable and minorities. With situations like this I subscribe to the idea she's doing so to not piss off her employers which might take umbrage to her throwing them under the bus for telling her to do X. It's not like she hasn't dealt with stuff like that before, re: not being allowed to use Cassandra Cain. It's just a theory, though. I could be wrong.

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    WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    Is it me or have the last 4-5 rage inducing stupid decisions in the bitching..... errrr Grievance! thread( bitching thread lasted like 2 years, that's gonna be harder to remember than not writing 2012 on my cheques next month) all been pretty head in buttocks decisions on DC's end. I'm almost not even surprised anymore by DC making dumb decisions.

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    Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    I guess what gets me is that she gets credited for caring and reaching out to fans, but things like the newsarama interview shows me that she's willing to turn her back on the same people that she supposedly defends if it's convenient. I mean, hell, it's pretty obvious that she wanted babara as batgirl, she's probably even said as much. But if she honestly cared about paraplegic people, she would have respected them and fought for her to remain oracle, not write the book herself. Then when the reasonably pissed off handicapped women says that people are pissed, turn it into how bab's paralysis was a women in refrigerator moment. If she's really against bab's being in a chair because it's sexist then just retcon killing joke(like she already did) and make her lose her legs another way. When Ryan Choi died, she said she was upset about it because there are so few Asian heroes. Saying that and then doing this, makes me feel that she's completely twofaced and is willing to fight for diversity only when it doesn't interfere with her own desires.

    I find it difficult to believe Simone didn't fight to keep Barbara as Oracle or paralyzed. Unfortunately even if she did she's not a Johns or Morrison, so when she gets refused she has to go along with it or risk getting reprisals from her superiors.
    Solar wrote: »
    cshadow42 wrote: »
    My impression is that since the new 52 DC Launch, Gail Simone has been severely hampered in her writing, and having a lot of editorial oversight. Then again, I deeply miss Secret Six.

    I miss early Secret Six, certainly

    it was dropping in quality before the end, though, as well as having a whole bunch of haphazard interludes that didn't seem to make much sense, like the old west arc

    Simone seems to have lost some of her touch, Batgirl and Firestorm were both, well

    kind of bad

    This is why she'd have lost her touch IMO.
    cshadow42 wrote: »
    My guess is that Gail Simone didn't have much of a say in Barbara coming back as Batgirl. That is the kind of thing that smacks of editorial. We probably won't know the truth until Gail Simone leaves DC, because she's been pretty good about being a "team player" and not telling tales. Unlike SOME writers we know.

    Now, I haven't read any of the recent Batgirl (darn lay-off and no job), so I can't say what the current quality is like. But I have consistently enjoyed Gail Simone over the years, and I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.

    Harry Dresden on
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    Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    TexiKen wrote: »
    If Diane Nelson moves on to something else at Time Warner like is rumored, that's going to suck even more. Mainly because it would make the DCnU look like it was an even more impulsive thing, as though Didio was trying to impress the new girl at school. Hey babe, who has two thumbs and can just reboot iconic comic characters on a whim? This guy.

    Nelson hasn't impressed me very much at all.

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    Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    Is it me or have the last 4-5 rage inducing stupid decisions in the bitching..... errrr Grievance! thread( bitching thread lasted like 2 years, that's gonna be harder to remember than not writing 2012 on my cheques next month) all been pretty head in buttocks decisions on DC's end. I'm almost not even surprised anymore by DC making dumb decisions.

    It's hard to expect anything else when Bob Harras is your editor-in-chief.

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    AmiguAmigu Registered User regular
    Solar wrote: »
    Cass can fuck off

    Oi!


    Anyway I can't see the original Gunn article (looks like it's been taken off the cache too) but what's been described just sounds like tasteless shit talking. The way The Mary Sue lays down what is "okay" and not "okay" to say in article about sex kind of annoys me. I feel like it's starting to get to a point where people will just jump at anything that they perceive as being misogynistic or gay bashing. Is it really homophobic to say that Tony Stark could turn Batwoman or that Nightwing is a girl? I don't think it is.

    I like that comics are becoming more open minded and aware of minorities but I also like that comics can be gory sexualised fantasy sometimes and I also think people should be allowed to express slightly off views without having the moral police jump down their throat and sterilising everything.

    I think that the at times completely ridiculous social justice movement on tumblr has made me become pretty apprehensive of these articles.

    Like I find the hawkeye initiative kind of stupid too. Personally I looked at the images of hawkeye in these poses and wasn't like "Oh yes now I see how women are sexualised". I was like "Hawkeye looks fucking cool in these androgynous poses!". King Mob for example also moves in quite feminine ways sometimes and I dig it. I think if anything male poses can be a bit rigid and boring but the implication of the blog seems to be that everyone should be in these more rigid poses because it's proper.

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    vagrant_windsvagrant_winds Overworked Mysterious Eldritch Horror Hunter XX Registered User regular
    I like the Hawkeye Initiative because I find the images absolutely hilarious.

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    FuruFuru Registered User regular
    The Hawkeye Initiative no longer has a point

    it's moved on to just making fun of women in comics in general, whether those characters are drawn okay or not

    I mean fuck they're "parodying" perfectly fine Amanda Conner and Sarah Pichelli art

    burn it down

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    WeaverWeaver Who are you? What do you want?Registered User regular
    Iron Man 4 preview has made me give up on IM until Land is off the book.

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    WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Well it made Cracked, cracked.com/blog/the-7-most-ridiculous-things-about-calling-out-fake-fangirls/

    edit: quick quote... "His rant contains more sexual frustration than a monastery opposite a coed trampoline-testing park, and is less logical."

    WiseManTobes on
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This discussion has been closed.