Airing Of Grievances In Public Conversation Form (Potentially NSFW or NSF56K)

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  • DelduwathDelduwath Registered User regular
    Delduwath wrote: »
    Superhero comics may be drek (P.S. I disagree with a broad statement like that)
    “You can make your superhero a psychopath, you can draw gut-splattering violence, and you can call it a "graphic novel," but comic books are still incredibly stupid.”
    P.S. I disagree with a broad statement like that

  • AmiguAmigu Registered User regular
    edited December 2013
    @delduwath How do you know about my punching problem? ;)

    I see what you are saying and maybe I'm not giving people here enough credit. I don't have numbers after all.

    I didn't mean to diminish the problems that face women, non-whites, LGBT people and others.

    Ugh I had a metaphor here but I realised I'm just being self important so I'll just leave it the above.

    Amigu on
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  • DelduwathDelduwath Registered User regular
    Amigu wrote: »
    @delduwath How do you know about my punching problem? ;)

    Cameras.

    Cameras everywhere.

  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited December 2013
    Fearghaill wrote: »

    It's called "empathy." It's a fairly common superpower.
    Gaslight wrote: »
    Not saying people here do that (or at least not nearly to the same degree), but I can see how a person who is already fatigued by exposure to the Tumblr crowd and their ilk would get cranky about it.

    About as cranky as I get when seeing responses by fanboys that criticism = persecution.

    Crimsondude on
  • AutomaticzenAutomaticzen Registered User regular
    edited December 2013
    I don't know. I kind of see where @Amigu is coming from in some ways. There seems to be a fairly arbitrary line that is drawn on this forum sometimes relative to what is and isn't acceptable in the comics we're all reading. The concepts of "Fridging" and "Cheesecake" get thrown around a lot in this forum and, while I agree it's a good thing to be vigilant and critical of the content we consume, I do feel that certain people sometimes go way overboard.

    The risk of course is that if we're crying wolf at everything we see the discussion (a very important one at that) eventually becomes pretty muted.

    Here's the thing that gets me.

    I'm not stewing over here in rage when things like that come up. When I notice the poor poses, the oversexualization, and the treatment of certain characters and I'll say something on here or Twitter. When the cast of Agents of SHIELD struck me as very... white... I made a comment somewhere, hoped it would improve, and moved on. Once I get done writing this, I'll probably go make a sandwich and watch some Brooklyn Nine-Nine.

    The concepts of "fridging" and "cheesecake" (or "whitewashing" or "racebending" or or or) are shorthand so people don't have to explain the same thing over and over again. They're broad concepts. When further discussions comes, then you can dig down and get specific. That's how language works.

    Instead of assuming that we're seeing and commenting on these things because there's a raging fire deep within us, why not wonder why there's so much shit to comment on? Trust me, I still enjoy comics. I still enjoy movies, games, television, etc. But that doesn't mean I can't see and say something about the stupid crap that goes on in my entertainment without also being able to live a normal life.

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  • GaslightGaslight Registered User regular
    edited December 2013
    The concepts of "fridging" and "cheesecake" are shorthand so people don't have to explain the same thing over and over again. They're broad concepts.

    You make concepts broad enough and they lose all meaning. They get stretched thin, so to speak. Any time any female character in comics dies? People call "fridging."

    As I believe was mentioned earlier, The Hawkeye Initiative is a good example. It started off as putting Hawkeye in the same suggestive poses as female characters to show how silly they were, then people lost track of what it was supposed to be about and lost perspective. Now if you have a cover where a female character is standing facing the viewer with her arms crossed looking nonchalant you have the Hawkeye Initiative version of it and somebody thinks they are being clever and insightful by making it.

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  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited December 2013
    The reason we're not discussing indies is because indies are already the desert where most of the few women and people of color in comics do exist. And also because indies comprise a gigantic swath of genres and most non-superheroic or superhero-like comics are read by insignificant numbers of people within a fandom that may be around 400-450,000 for the entire medium.

    Because superheroes are the dominant genre and, most importantly, the representative genre of American comics. Most non-comics readers automatically assume comics = superheroes. So it matters with that genre. And when a supermajority of that genre is dominated by two publishers, those publishers have the most power and the most influence.

    Except for Mike Mignola, even the guys who "make it" at Image of late have almost to a man (And I do emphasize "man" because even with Pretty Deadly and newer female-created series Image is still a sausage fest.) only become popular and successful enough to get those creator-owned books made because of their work on superhero comics for DC and Marvel (This is also due to the fact that the mechanics of Image requires a shitload of upfront capital investment by the creators for even 10,000 issues. Kieron Gillen did not see a penny of profit from Phonogram until he'd been working at Marvel for years and people began buying it based on his rep with Uncanny X-Men and Thor).

    DC and Marvel are, to summarize, the gatekeepers and the kingmakers. And in 2013 those gatekeepers are still racist and sexist as Hell. It may be "blind" discrimination, but it's still discrimination.

    So it's not just a matter of me wanting to read superhero comics, which is why I'm even discussing this here and not arguing with six guys on Spurgeon's site over the new hotness from SPX or some other one-day cartoon/small press comics cons. It's the fact that as it applies to the entire medium of American comic books no conversation can ignore DC and Marvel. They keep Diamond in business. If Marvel ever moves to in-house Disney distributors, Diamond is a goner. Their solicits (and the other frontpage publishers, but mainly those two) subsidize the solicitations for the hundreds of other publishers in each month's issue of Previews. Their comics, like it or not, subsidize the entire LCS model and draw customers to stores where they may in passing stop to look at the local/small/whatever press rack.

    And as I said before, these two publishers are not expanding their outreach. The biggest movies of the decade and of all time are comic book movies. But that has barely put a dent in readership. They are aging themselves into irrelevancy, and furthermore by focusing on and even regressing and whitewashing the POC versions of heroes back to their white predecessors they are also ignoring the fact that America is getting browner. Meanwhile, they're still using white men to tell stories about the same white men and their token women and minority buddies. These are characters women non-whites cannot empathize with, connect with, or appreciate. Even the minority characters don't actually talk or act or think the way women and non-whites do. That's the most common refrain when you read why new CM reader picked up the book—it was all on Kelly Sue. A woman writing a female superhero. How novel?!? A woman who was intent on making sure that the character didn't fall into the same tropes most female supers books fall into, who refused to discuss Avengers #200, who was actually written from the beginning with a fucking purpose (Everyone knows that I think Brian Reed's series was mostly shit, but it's especially so when you look at the early issues as him trying to figure out how to write her, and he never succeeded in 53-ish issues).

    I would have loved Mighty Avengers especially if it were written by an African-American as the team is mostly black, like If Reggie Hudlin or the late Dwayne McDuffie wrote it. Whatever happened to Christopher Priest? What about Jamal Igle? His work is amazeballs and his exclusive contract with DC ended almost two years ago. Funny. I don't recall Bendis and Brevoort rushing to scoop him off via Twitter like they did with other artists a few months ago.

    Irrespective of everything else. That Land is the fucking "artist." That they were formed from the ranks of those superheroes left behind while the "real" Avengers went to play Big Damn Heroes in space. That for some reason one of them is (pretending to be?) a Spider-Man wannabe (Agency? What's that?). Most of that could be solved by one line by Luke Cage "We've been used to being overlooked and disregarded. We do this because we want to; we must. This our home, too."

    Fuck. I didn't want to read this thread today because I'm supposed to be studying.

    Point is this: DC and Marvel have the power and agency to change the medium if they want; if they want to grow their brand; if they want to survive another generation as comic book publishers and not merely as IP farms to their corporate owners. But it is on them to do that–to reach out to the 51% of American that is female and the third of America that isn't white. No one else can do it for them.

    Crimsondude on
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  • TexiKenTexiKen Elite Registered User regular
    I agree, get rid of non-american writers.

  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    @Automaticzen I'm not specifically calling anybody out at all - in fact I don't think I even could if I wanted to because I'm not even sure who to attribute the attitudes to. I do find that there's a certain amount of condescension that comes along with the argument sometimes, but that's by and large irrelevant.

    Regardless, my point wasn't that I have a problem with the criticism. I believe the issues we're referencing exist and should be a part of conversations. What I was talking about was the overly broad application of the criticism at times. Ultimately, maybe I'm just a bit more optimistic and have blinders on to some of the criticism. Which begs the question, why would I be having this conversation in a thread created for people to complain?

    I'll show myself out.

  • AutomaticzenAutomaticzen Registered User regular
    @Automaticzen I'm not specifically calling anybody out at all - in fact I don't think I even could if I wanted to because I'm not even sure who to attribute the attitudes to. I do find that there's a certain amount of condescension that comes along with the argument sometimes, but that's by and large irrelevant.

    Regardless, my point wasn't that I have a problem with the criticism. I believe the issues we're referencing exist and should be a part of conversations. What I was talking about was the overly broad application of the criticism at times. Ultimately, maybe I'm just a bit more optimistic and have blinders on to some of the criticism. Which begs the question, why would I be having this conversation in a thread created for people to complain?

    I'll show myself out.

    I dig that part of your statement. I don't think it helps, but I understand how people can get that way at times, because their compliants are arguments are frequently ignored. I prefer to stay on the civil side of things.

    And you don't have to show yourself out! It's your thread as much as anyone elses.

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  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    I would not have loved a Mighty Avengers written by Reggie Hudlin because Reggie Hudlin is an awful comic book writer.

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  • noir_bloodnoir_blood Registered User regular
    That for some reason one of them is (pretending to be?) a Spider-Man wannabe (Agency? What's that?).

    Or maybe because the character is going to be (already is?) Ronin, who has a history of hiding their identity? And because there's an actual storyline reason why the character cant be in the U.S?

    I mean, I"m not going to argue that there's a shitload of wrong or crappy things about the comic book industry, but sometimes people are looking too hard.

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  • AmiguAmigu Registered User regular
    edited December 2013
    @crimsondude have you actually read Mighty Avengers? The way you're describing how the story unfolds I have the impression that you haven't. The whole first encounter between Spock and the heroes for hire is 100% about white privilege. Spock mocks the heroes for hire for not doing heroics for heroics sake and Cage says something along the lines of "what an honest pay for a days work isn't heroic enough for you?"

    It's implicit that white rich Spock can afford to not work but is totally blind to his own privilege. Al Ewing isn't black but he is an out gay man and I think that he is addressing the privilege thing very well.

    By the third issue they are actually facing a threat that Ewing said is larger than Thanos or the builders
    it's eldritch
    so the thing about their mission being B-grade isn't really valid either. Ewing has a huge rant about how he hates the concept of hero tiers (c-listers etc).

    I really think you think you should read or reread the story. If you don't want to buy it then just go and have a look at it in a store. Because honestly I think you have it super wrong.

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  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    Oh. I totally forgot to come back to this.

    Anyway, proving my last post ...

  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    This isn't really a bitch, but does anyone else feel like Waid's Daredevil's gone off the rails a bit?
    Since the series relaunched, it was basically building to the Ikari plot, with Daredevil facing a bunch of minor villains, all of which wound up being pawns of the mysterious Ikari. Now, Ikari comes across as a legitimate threat, and a new potential arch-nemesis for Daredevil, in no small part due to his evil-opposite status. He's a Bizarro, a Wrath, or a Reverse Flash; all of Daredevil's powers and skill, and then some, but twisted to evil.

    Then, he's unraveled over a couple of short issues, and shown to be the pawn of an even bigger, villain. And.. that's basically it. Ikari's identity is never revealed. He's just a guy in a suit, who managed to put the hurt on one of Marvel's most skilled and dangerous heroes. And the big villain behind it? Just Bullseye, stuck in an iron lung.

    Oh, and Lady Bullseye's there too, just to be easily dispatched.

    All the bad guys are rounded up, and Daredevil moves onto a new plot, fighting the mysterious Serpent Society, and their various pawns.

    I dunno, I feel like Waid just really failed to stick the landing on the Ikari plot, and now the book's just meandering until it reaches its relaunch.

    The individual issues are still strong, with the last one being particularly good, but the larger plot just feels like it's going nowhere.

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  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    I am having weird feelings about Invincible. Sometimes the comic is cute and charming.
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    And then a few issues later, it is gory as fuck.
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    I don't mind charming comics. I don't mind gory comics. It bothers me when a comic is both.

    BionicPenguinSkullo
  • BionicPenguinBionicPenguin Registered User regular
    Yeah. I stopped reading Invincible for exactly that reason.

  • frandelgearslipfrandelgearslip 457670Registered User regular
    I think Kirkman's work and success with the walking dead has crept into Invincible. More and more often I will read a scene and think to myself "this is a walking dead scene" (not in plot but in tone).

  • KyouguKyougu Registered User regular
    That second panel...wow...

  • PookieMan357PookieMan357 Registered User regular
    Not to be contrary, but I think I stuck with Invincible for as long as I did because they had both of those bits in there. Invincible starts off like it's going to be yet another "kid finds out he has powers and now has to balance being a superhero along with having a girlfriend, going to school, etc." But then some of that gore kicks in, and now this is one of those coming of age super-hero comics where the protagonist finds himself in situations with real consequences and has to also deal with his over-the-top life having over-the-top situations. So he's living the American dream, and all too often we get to see really bad things happen in really graphic ways. I guess it just hit the right notes with me.
    My only real gripe with Invincible (aside from the trades first coming regularly and now it seems like that never come out, but I don't keep up that well so it's probably my fault) is early on when attempts were made to kind of shoehorn the rest of the Image roster into the books. I didn't follow any of the other books and the cameos threw me a bit.
    Okay- one more small little gripe: Odd directions and decisions when it comes to advancing secondary characters. I only kind of care about Allen the Alien and/or Invincible's best friend. Their subplots drop me out of the story a bit.

  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    I think Robert Kirkman is a hack.

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  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    I think Kirkman can write good books but he desperately needs a great editor to do so.

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  • WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    I wonder how many times as consultant for the TV show Kirkman has heard " Wait, What? You want to do what? You're sick dude, go to your trailer"

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  • wirehead26wirehead26 Registered User regular
    A story having real consequences is one thing but graphic gore isn't the only way to portray it.

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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    It is a legitimate way to portray it, however

    It's just that it's so dissonant in tone with the rest of the book, and also the rest of the book has gone downhill a bit

  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    I've gotten into this debate before but Invincible has always been the way it's been. Some people act like it suddenly got gory out of nowhere when that's simply not the truth.

    That being said, I also agree that Kirkman is extremely hit or miss. He definitely doesn't hold a candle to some of the top tier talent in the industry.

    vagrant_winds
  • Dizzy DDizzy D NetherlandsRegistered User regular
    Agree on Kirkman being hit or miss. I quite like his Marvel Team-up, but his run on Ultimate X-Men was shockingly bad (even moreso because it followed BKVs run).

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  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    I've gotten into this debate before but Invincible has always been the way it's been. Some people act like it suddenly got gory out of nowhere when that's simply not the truth.

    The comic has always been bloody. It only got eyeballs-popping-out-of-sockets gory when
    Mark's little brother splattered the Mauler twins. That was, what, 50 issues in?

  • vagrant_windsvagrant_winds Overworked Mysterious Eldritch Horror Hunter XX Registered User regular
    edited January 2014
    Invincible is outstanding. One of my favorites. And yes, it's -always- been gory.
    The Walking Dead is pretty good.

    I've never read anything else from Kirkman that I like.

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  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    emnmnme wrote: »
    I've gotten into this debate before but Invincible has always been the way it's been. Some people act like it suddenly got gory out of nowhere when that's simply not the truth.

    The comic has always been bloody. It only got eyeballs-popping-out-of-sockets gory when
    Mark's little brother splattered the Mauler twins. That was, what, 50 issues in?

    I can't speak to specifics (ie: body parts, etc) but the thing with Omni-Man in the first year was quite horrific right out of the gates.

  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    I think a lot of Invincible's goriness, can be laid on Ryan Ottley. Anyone who's seen his commissions, or independent comics like Death Grub and Grizzly Shark, knows the dude loves gnarly stuff. Whether that's bloated monsters filled with sores and wrinkles, or ornately-rendered gore and viscera. That's a far cry from original series artist Cory Walker, and his simple, angular figures.

    And when Bill Crabtree stopped coloring the book, and FCO Plascencia took over, turning flat red blood and guts into shiny, fully-rendered mess, the book became just a little bit more realistic, and disconcerting as a result.

    I think it's a reminder of how important an artist is, when establishing the tone of a book. I've said it before, but if John Layman and Rob Guillory's Chew was instead John Layman and Sean Murphy's Chew, it'd be an entirely different book. Instead of a lighthearted, fun book full of gleeful dismemberment and cartoonish body horror, it's just be a straight crime horror book, with some funny quips.

    That said, I think I'm kinder to Invincible, than most. I really do love the mythology that Kirkman and his conspirators have cooked up, gore aside. I like that they've built a superhero universe with stakes and consequences, filled with colorful characters. There's no marginalizing B-list characters, because they're all Kirkman's (and Cereno's and Nauck's and Ottley's and Bellegarde's and Hester's and Brown's and..) babies. There's no killing a character off, because someone three editors removed from the book thinks it'd make a good story. There's no contrived resurrection, to boost sales. There's no arbitrary relaunch with a new #1.

    There's just a few guys doing the kind of story they want to do.

    Sometimes that isn't the story I want to read, but for me, the Invincible universe of books hits more than it misses.

    That said, I think basically every ancillary character, is more interesting than Invincible himself.

  • valhalla130valhalla130 13 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered User regular
    Munch, I've always liked you, and I feel like that is pretty much because of your Blue Beetle avatar. I was trying to explain to my teenaged daughter about the different Blue Beetles, and which was my favorite, and how that led to Jaime Reyes, and when I told her how Ted Kord was done away with, she said "That's stupid."

    Yes, daughter, I agree.

    Caveman Paws
  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    Though I have misgivings regarding telling children about superheroes having their skulls ventilated by former friends, I support your daughter's position.

    I keep thinking about changing my avatar, but I'm afraid nobody would recognize my posts.

    Maybe I should draw a Spring and Summer Beetle.

    Antimattervalhalla130
  • LockedOnTargetLockedOnTarget Registered User regular
    My grievance: comic book writers please stop tearing apart good couples you fuckers.

    Signed someone who misses Lois and Clark, Peter and MJ, and Scott and Emma.

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  • WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    That makes me worried Pete will only return once I'm fully invested in Spock + Anna Maria relationship ( I seriously love them as a couple)

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  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    I can't imagine any turn of events where Anna would discover who and what Spock is and still stay with him.

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  • WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    She'll be what makes him fully go good, and I so hope that means because he values the relationship and not because they are gonna throw her off a bridge

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  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    She'll be what makes him fully go good, and I so hope that means because he values the relationship and not because they are gonna throw her off a bridge

    And she's supposed to stay with the guy who dated her under some pretty massive false pretenses?

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  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    Yeah, I can buy Spock going good for her but if she just accepts him after learning his secret that is FUCKED

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  • WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    edited January 2014
    Eh bury the secret, the guilt can be his Uncle Ben.

    edit: I just like the whole Spock thing and am worried it's already starting to be written out, so this is all blindly throwing hope at the wall mostly

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