Actually I think they should disconnect turn speed from engine speed. Otherwise, chassis with same weight and engine would handle exactly the same. It would be better have some chassis be more manuverable while some other would be able to accelerate or brake faster. Makes the choices more interesting.
Turn rate isn't a hard value I don't think. Engine rating is just a variable in the formula that calculates it. A 310 Atlas defnitely outturns a 310 Stalker.
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
I dunno, I rather like that something slow handles like a retarded 3-legged pig. Maneuverability is a big, big thing thanks to that system; it really discourages people from taking a tiny engine and the heaviest weapons possible if it takes them an eternity to turn around. Something like the Stalker seems like a straight-up murder machine with all those missile hardpoints and energy hardpoints, but the turn speed and narrow turn angles mean it has some serious drawbacks to deal with. Part of the reason a Gaussapult is silly is that its huge turn radius lets it ignore the slow turn speed it should have.
Plus, disconnecting turn rate from engine size would mostly just be a big buff to slow heavies and assaults. Lights and mediums can't afford to be super-slow and none of the assaults can actually really go fast, just fast for assaults, so the big stuff would have little reason to take larger engines instead of heavier weapons and more heatsinks.
agreed. if the turn rate of assaults were disconnected from the engine speed, there would be the possibility of assault mechs literally turning into walking turrets.
I think Engine Rating should be part of it, but not the whole thing. Given the same engine rating (or top speed, whichever they actually use), an Awesome should turn faster than a Stalker, but not as fast as an Atlas.
The fast Awesome can get up to 83 or 84kph, which will outrun most heavies and mediums.
Other than that, though, you're looking at 63-ish for a maxed-out speed build in an assault.
It can outrun most heavies and stock-engine mediums, sure, but it gets outpaced by almost anything running a custom engine with Speed Tweak and an emphasis on speed. It also has to pay a monster price in weight to get that speed and maneuverability, so there is a tradeoff. If the Awesome could have the 80+-kph maneuverability on any engine size, it would be pretty silly since it could still charge after slow stuff without actually having to pay the weight cost to get enough engine power for that.
And I'm pretty sure that there is a "base" maneuverability value for everything, it's just not something overt; they should probably put some stated value like "turning degrees per second per ton engine" for each mech, so people have an idea of well the mech can turn. And if not, then yeah, each mech should have it's own base turning value before the engine comes into play.
Turn rate isn't a hard value I don't think. Engine rating is just a variable in the formula that calculates it. A 310 Atlas defnitely outturns a 310 Stalker.
Can it out-turn the Stalker or does it just feel like it can because the Atlas can actually torso twist and has arms? Because the Stalker wouldn't feel like nearly such a slug if it didn't have the ultra-narrow torso twist.
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UnluckyThat's not meant to happenRegistered Userregular
8Q: 6LL, 18DHS, Endo Steel, 290STD Engine, 464 armour.
Still a really evil sniper build. The LL have pinpoint accuracy, making it easy to kill cockpits. I like it more than my 6LL2+SRM4 Stalker build, which doesn't have all the lasers hitting one spot and feels a lot less mobile.
Remember to redo the armor spread on the CT on the Awesome. I mostly use 80 front, 20 back.
This is my favourite. The idea of alpha-ing someone's head off is pretty much exactly what I want in an Awesome.
8Q: 6LL, 18DHS, Endo Steel, 290STD Engine, 464 armour.
Still a really evil sniper build. The LL have pinpoint accuracy, making it easy to kill cockpits. I like it more than my 6LL2+SRM4 Stalker build, which doesn't have all the lasers hitting one spot and feels a lot less mobile.
Remember to redo the armor spread on the CT on the Awesome. I mostly use 80 front, 20 back.
This is my favourite. The idea of alpha-ing someone's head off is pretty much exactly what I want in an Awesome.
Any reason you don't use XL engines?
XLs in an Awesome are pretty risky because of how easy it is to hit the side torsos.
Probably because the awesome has hugeass side torsos making it an easy kill with an XL engine. I tend to avoid XL engines in most (not all, but most) brawler mechs for that reason.
This is my favourite. The idea of alpha-ing someone's head off is pretty much exactly what I want in an Awesome.
Any reason you don't use XL engines?
Mostly survivability. I don't see anything worth adding that the saved weight would allow for that makes up for that. Not like there is any weapon slot left worth filling.
The biggest problem with the build is heat. One alpha is ~65% heat, so only really useful for sniping. On the other hand, you can shoot the four torso LL on chainfire for quite a while, or snipe with them for less heat if you just want to finish an enemy off. The 2 lasers in the arm allow allow pretty accurate shooting at fast enemies.
In addition to the the Alpha Strike button (space bar, so there is no risk of moving the mouse by pressing the fire button) I have weapon groups for the four torso lasers, the four torso lasers on chainfire, the two arm lasers, and the two arm lasers on chainfire.
This is my favourite. The idea of alpha-ing someone's head off is pretty much exactly what I want in an Awesome.
Any reason you don't use XL engines?
Mostly survivability. I don't see anything worth adding that the saved weight would allow for that makes up for that. Not like there is any weapon slot left worth filling.
The biggest problem with the build is heat. One alpha is ~65% heat, so only really useful for sniping. On the other hand, you can shoot the four torso LL on chainfire for quite a while, or snipe with them for less heat if you just want to finish an enemy off. The 2 lasers in the arm allow allow pretty accurate shooting at fast enemies.
In addition to the the Alpha Strike button (space bar, so there is no risk of moving the mouse by pressing the fire button) I have weapon groups for the four torso lasers, the four torso lasers on chainfire, the two arm lasers, and the two arm lasers on chainfire.
The saved weight lets you drop ES and install more heat sinks.
I use similar setups to Causality, but generally without ES, often with an XL, and with more heat sinks.
The saved weight lets you drop ES and install more heat sinks.
I use similar setups to Causality, but generally without ES, often with an XL, and with more heat sinks.
Curious, I just looked at my 8Q's loadout and changing over to an xl and getting rid of ES would actually lower my total number of DHS. I'd have two remove two from the sidetorso to fit the xl. Then getting rid of ES would leave me with the following free slots: 2 left arm, 2RT, 2CT, 2LT, 2LA. So no place to install any more heatsinks.
Where do you fit them?
The 8T is the one that would benefit the most from an xl engine, giving it more heatsinks and ammunition. The 8R is a brawler build, I'd advise against it there. As said, the 8Q build actually loses effectiveness when using an xl.
The 8T is the one that would benefit the most from an xl engine, giving it more heatsinks and ammunition. The 8R is a brawler build, I'd advise against it there. As said, the 8Q build actually loses effectiveness when using an xl.
The missile one I run with a standard 290 at the moment, no ES, and MLAS instead of your LLAS. I'd like to try a version with an XL and LLAS once I can afford the engine.
People talk about the Awesome's big side torsos, but in reality the CT is even bigger and 90% of the time I die from that. It's a little bit different for the fast variant since you can get going fast enough to spread the damage around more. I do not generally find the XL to be that big a liability.
Also, the "lost effectiveness" for an XL is a result of your LLAS build--2x LLAS takes 4 crits (which is as good as 6 when you're trying to add 3-slot double heat sinks in a 12-slot torso) while only weighing 10 tons. Since I use PPCs on that one (6 crits, 14 tons for a pair) the XL helps. Paired LLAS basically create extra crit space that you can't fill with heatsinks, but can use for ES, so it makes sense in that context. With PPCs you are pushing both weight and critical limits, so I use an XL instead of ES.
The fast Awesome, on the other hand, needs the XL because a standard 385 is absurdly huge. I have had some success with a standard 350, some MLAS/MPLAS and a shitload of DHS, but I think I'd rather push the "fast assault" gimmick to its logical limit on that 'mech.
The 9M (the fast one) I feel should have an XL engine to take advantage of that ludicrously large engine cap it can hit, and the only way its doing that is with an XL. Then you can go at a decent speed and pew pew at the same time.
That's with the STK-5M, Quintuple SRM6 + Artemis, and 3 Medium Lasers.
With the last patch they "fixed" the mech so all the launchers could fire all 6 SRM's at once (previously one could only fire 1 missile at a time, and I *think* another launcher was limited to 4 then 2). This has made it go from "pretty good" to "Death Incarnate".
Edit: the Trebuchet can't get here fast enough. It's going to have so much load out flexibility compared to my Centurion. Plus Jump Jets. Playing around with different builds in excel makes it seem like picking up an XL engine is going to be very tough call. On one hand you have similar torso dimensions as the Centurion (based on the concept art) so with a STD you'd have maximum survivability, on the other hand with an XL engine I'd be able to fully utilize its high engine cap and load up on SRMs and Jump Jets. Hmmm
Its not hard to get well over 1k points with the Stalker 5M. If you come up behind another mech and unload your SRMs you get about 200-300 points in one volley. People ignore it at their peril.
I was about to say something about how the Trebuchet is going to supplant the Hunchback and Centurion as the premiere fighting medium mech, but the lack of ballistics in all but one of the variants made me rethink that statement. I see a lot of SRM builds being crazy fun with it, though.
Its not hard to get well over 1k points with the Stalker 5M. If you come up behind another mech and unload your SRMs you get about 200-300 points in one volley. People ignore it at their peril.
5 SRM6 produces a volley damage of 75--still rather short of 200-300.
They fire quickly and produce low heat, though, so you can stack up a lot over the course of a game. SRMs are among my favorite weapons for this reason. I don't own a Stalker, but I can pretty frequently run up 1k+ damage in my SRM Awesome.
That's with the STK-5M, Quintuple SRM6 + Artemis, and 3 Medium Lasers.
With the last patch they "fixed" the mech so all the launchers could fire all 6 SRM's at once (previously one could only fire 1 missile at a time, and I *think* another launcher was limited to 4 then 2). This has made it go from "pretty good" to "Death Incarnate".
I was about to say something about how the Trebuchet is going to supplant the Hunchback and Centurion as the premiere fighting medium mech, but the lack of ballistics in all but one of the variants made me rethink that statement. I see a lot of SRM builds being crazy fun with it, though.
Yeah, I don't think it'll supplant anything. The Trenchbucket and Centurion are supposed to be complementary; the stock Centurion can help the Trenchbucket with a little extra LRM firepower and keep the light stuff away, while the Trenchbucket hits the big stuff with long-range firepower.
Personally, I think the Cent-D actually supplants anything the Trebuchet is supposed to do. The possible top speed and pair of missile hardpoints mean you can do whatever a Trebuchet would do, except at ludicrously high speeds and with all the hardpoints safely contained in the torso. About the only advantage the Trebuchet has is the arm-mounted energy hardpoints, which is a debatable advantage anyway since arms come off pretty easily.
I'm confused as to why MWO needs three 50 ton designs. What about 45 or 55?
Because that's a pretty ancillary issue compared to just getting notable mechs in the game? I certainly don't look at the mech selections and think that a 45-ton mech would specifically add anything better than a 50-ton mech, and I've been playing this stuff forever. And getting all the weight selections filled out probably won't matter at all until teams are matched on point values instead of just weight classes, because only then will trying to get the most bang for the buck for an entire team matter. Better to have a 45-ton mech for a specific role than shoehorning a 50-tonner into it and wasting points.
I was about to say something about how the Trebuchet is going to supplant the Hunchback and Centurion as the premiere fighting medium mech, but the lack of ballistics in all but one of the variants made me rethink that statement. I see a lot of SRM builds being crazy fun with it, though.
Yeah, I don't think it'll supplant anything. The Trenchbucket and Centurion are supposed to be complementary; the stock Centurion can help the Trenchbucket with a little extra LRM firepower and keep the light stuff away, while the Trenchbucket hits the big stuff with long-range firepower.
Personally, I think the Cent-D actually supplants anything the Trebuchet is supposed to do. The possible top speed and pair of missile hardpoints mean you can do whatever a Trebuchet would do, except at ludicrously high speeds and with all the hardpoints safely contained in the torso. About the only advantage the Trebuchet has is the arm-mounted energy hardpoints, which is a debatable advantage anyway since arms come off pretty easily.
I think the lack of ballistic hardpoints is what makes the chassis more useful than the Centurion-D. It's much more weight efficient, plus it has jump jets. A medium brawler wth jump jets is going to be a beautiful thing.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited January 2013
Just had a great moment. A friendly Stalker was dealing with an SRM Cat and an Atlas under the pipes in Forest Colony; I drop down on one side of the pipes, headshot the Cat, back up, then core the advancing Atlas in the other pipe with a double ERPPC + gauss alpha. Their certain kill went to certain death in the span of about six seconds.
Anyway, something I've been pining for lately is a more explicit damage display system. By that, I mean being able to see, with numerical, exactly what my current state of armor and internal HP is at. When you switch between a bunch of mechs like I do, the deep red of severe damage doesn't mean a whole lot besides "severe damage". Sure would be nice if I knew whether one single touch of a laser would put me down or if I can actually still take a bit of damage there.
Oh, and the connection issues I was having have gone away. Restarted the computer at some point, so I dunno if it was my system or an issue on PGI's end; just happy it's gone.
I'm confused as to why MWO needs three 50 ton designs. What about 45 or 55?
Because that's a pretty ancillary issue compared to just getting notable mechs in the game? I certainly don't look at the mech selections and think that a 45-ton mech would specifically add anything better than a 50-ton mech, and I've been playing this stuff forever. And getting all the weight selections filled out probably won't matter at all until teams are matched on point values instead of just weight classes, because only then will trying to get the most bang for the buck for an entire team matter. Better to have a 45-ton mech for a specific role than shoehorning a 50-tonner into it and wasting points.
Agreed. Although, realistically, I would have liked the Trebuchet before, say the Centurion. Between the dragon and the hunchie, we didn't really need the Centi. But they probably added in because of the hero 'mech.
Either way is fine. Part of me really is waiting for the point where they have at least one 'mech of every weight available, but it's really a major issue, just something I'm looking forward to.
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited January 2013
Good, good night of stompy bots. Probably my favorite match tonight was when I broke the gauss rifles on two Atlases by zooming behind them at 124kph with a Centurion and blasting those back sections, leaving them with 4 large lasers each... on Caustic. Then later on killing one of them myself. Though in general, I had some excellent shenanigans with my fast Centurion; people seem to still be sort of wrapping their head around the concept and, unlike lights, Centurions don't have thin armor. Can easily survive a hit or two that would put lights down, and if your arms get blown off, pfft, who cares? They were empty anyway.
Also hilarious was watching a Stalker armed with streaks explode... because Wolve Sight shot the legs. Gotta watch where you put that ammo. :P
Oh yeah, Mvrk's 0 damage game was pretty funny, too. Apparently it's not just a matter of crappy pubs; it would seem that it's entirely possible to get a bug that ignores all the damage you deal.
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Turn rate isn't a hard value I don't think. Engine rating is just a variable in the formula that calculates it. A 310 Atlas defnitely outturns a 310 Stalker.
Plus, disconnecting turn rate from engine size would mostly just be a big buff to slow heavies and assaults. Lights and mediums can't afford to be super-slow and none of the assaults can actually really go fast, just fast for assaults, so the big stuff would have little reason to take larger engines instead of heavier weapons and more heatsinks.
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Other than that, though, you're looking at 63-ish for a maxed-out speed build in an assault.
It can outrun most heavies and stock-engine mediums, sure, but it gets outpaced by almost anything running a custom engine with Speed Tweak and an emphasis on speed. It also has to pay a monster price in weight to get that speed and maneuverability, so there is a tradeoff. If the Awesome could have the 80+-kph maneuverability on any engine size, it would be pretty silly since it could still charge after slow stuff without actually having to pay the weight cost to get enough engine power for that.
And I'm pretty sure that there is a "base" maneuverability value for everything, it's just not something overt; they should probably put some stated value like "turning degrees per second per ton engine" for each mech, so people have an idea of well the mech can turn. And if not, then yeah, each mech should have it's own base turning value before the engine comes into play.
Can it out-turn the Stalker or does it just feel like it can because the Atlas can actually torso twist and has arms? Because the Stalker wouldn't feel like nearly such a slug if it didn't have the ultra-narrow torso twist.
Any reason you don't use XL engines?
XLs in an Awesome are pretty risky because of how easy it is to hit the side torsos.
The biggest problem with the build is heat. One alpha is ~65% heat, so only really useful for sniping. On the other hand, you can shoot the four torso LL on chainfire for quite a while, or snipe with them for less heat if you just want to finish an enemy off. The 2 lasers in the arm allow allow pretty accurate shooting at fast enemies.
In addition to the the Alpha Strike button (space bar, so there is no risk of moving the mouse by pressing the fire button) I have weapon groups for the four torso lasers, the four torso lasers on chainfire, the two arm lasers, and the two arm lasers on chainfire.
I use similar setups to Causality, but generally without ES, often with an XL, and with more heat sinks.
Where do you fit them?
I was talking more about the 4-missile point one and the fast one (man I cannot for the life of me remember the variant codes).
People talk about the Awesome's big side torsos, but in reality the CT is even bigger and 90% of the time I die from that. It's a little bit different for the fast variant since you can get going fast enough to spread the damage around more. I do not generally find the XL to be that big a liability.
Also, the "lost effectiveness" for an XL is a result of your LLAS build--2x LLAS takes 4 crits (which is as good as 6 when you're trying to add 3-slot double heat sinks in a 12-slot torso) while only weighing 10 tons. Since I use PPCs on that one (6 crits, 14 tons for a pair) the XL helps. Paired LLAS basically create extra crit space that you can't fill with heatsinks, but can use for ES, so it makes sense in that context. With PPCs you are pushing both weight and critical limits, so I use an XL instead of ES.
The fast Awesome, on the other hand, needs the XL because a standard 385 is absurdly huge. I have had some success with a standard 350, some MLAS/MPLAS and a shitload of DHS, but I think I'd rather push the "fast assault" gimmick to its logical limit on that 'mech.
Wasn't even my best game today. I hit 1532 but I was working on the Mechlab and had something in the clipboard so I couldn't SS it.
what the shit?
With the last patch they "fixed" the mech so all the launchers could fire all 6 SRM's at once (previously one could only fire 1 missile at a time, and I *think* another launcher was limited to 4 then 2). This has made it go from "pretty good" to "Death Incarnate".
Edit: the Trebuchet can't get here fast enough. It's going to have so much load out flexibility compared to my Centurion. Plus Jump Jets. Playing around with different builds in excel makes it seem like picking up an XL engine is going to be very tough call. On one hand you have similar torso dimensions as the Centurion (based on the concept art) so with a STD you'd have maximum survivability, on the other hand with an XL engine I'd be able to fully utilize its high engine cap and load up on SRMs and Jump Jets. Hmmm
Its not hard to get well over 1k points with the Stalker 5M. If you come up behind another mech and unload your SRMs you get about 200-300 points in one volley. People ignore it at their peril.
They fire quickly and produce low heat, though, so you can stack up a lot over the course of a game. SRMs are among my favorite weapons for this reason. I don't own a Stalker, but I can pretty frequently run up 1k+ damage in my SRM Awesome.
What engine are you running? And how much ammo?
Yeah, I don't think it'll supplant anything. The Trenchbucket and Centurion are supposed to be complementary; the stock Centurion can help the Trenchbucket with a little extra LRM firepower and keep the light stuff away, while the Trenchbucket hits the big stuff with long-range firepower.
Personally, I think the Cent-D actually supplants anything the Trebuchet is supposed to do. The possible top speed and pair of missile hardpoints mean you can do whatever a Trebuchet would do, except at ludicrously high speeds and with all the hardpoints safely contained in the torso. About the only advantage the Trebuchet has is the arm-mounted energy hardpoints, which is a debatable advantage anyway since arms come off pretty easily.
Because that's a pretty ancillary issue compared to just getting notable mechs in the game? I certainly don't look at the mech selections and think that a 45-ton mech would specifically add anything better than a 50-ton mech, and I've been playing this stuff forever. And getting all the weight selections filled out probably won't matter at all until teams are matched on point values instead of just weight classes, because only then will trying to get the most bang for the buck for an entire team matter. Better to have a 45-ton mech for a specific role than shoehorning a 50-tonner into it and wasting points.
I think the lack of ballistic hardpoints is what makes the chassis more useful than the Centurion-D. It's much more weight efficient, plus it has jump jets. A medium brawler wth jump jets is going to be a beautiful thing.
Anyway, something I've been pining for lately is a more explicit damage display system. By that, I mean being able to see, with numerical, exactly what my current state of armor and internal HP is at. When you switch between a bunch of mechs like I do, the deep red of severe damage doesn't mean a whole lot besides "severe damage". Sure would be nice if I knew whether one single touch of a laser would put me down or if I can actually still take a bit of damage there.
Oh, and the connection issues I was having have gone away. Restarted the computer at some point, so I dunno if it was my system or an issue on PGI's end; just happy it's gone.
Agreed. Although, realistically, I would have liked the Trebuchet before, say the Centurion. Between the dragon and the hunchie, we didn't really need the Centi. But they probably added in because of the hero 'mech.
Either way is fine. Part of me really is waiting for the point where they have at least one 'mech of every weight available, but it's really a major issue, just something I'm looking forward to.
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Also hilarious was watching a Stalker armed with streaks explode... because Wolve Sight shot the legs. Gotta watch where you put that ammo. :P
Oh yeah, Mvrk's 0 damage game was pretty funny, too. Apparently it's not just a matter of crappy pubs; it would seem that it's entirely possible to get a bug that ignores all the damage you deal.