[D&D 5E] Playtest of Chaos (Post-Playtest Discussion)

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  • LeperLeper Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Moved here.

    Leper on
    If my role play is hindered by rolling to play, then I'd prefer the rolls play right, instead of steam-rolling play-night.
  • DenadaDenada Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    On playing 4E vs 5E: Play 4E. It's a better game.

    On simulationist design: I have my thoughts about it, but take that discussion to another thread.

    On DMing 4E vs 5E: I'll talk more about that when I've had enough of the playtest, but the short of it is that 4E provides a much more structured and reliable framework with which to create an interesting, challenging, and fair adventure.

    ACTUALLY RELATED TO THE PLAYTEST: I'm thinking what I might do is put stuff I changed in a different color. Like if I've modified what you can do with the eye walls, I'll put that text in purple or something. I think it might be an interesting thing.

    Denada on
  • wildwoodwildwood Registered User regular
    Yeah, let's move more general 4e/5e game discussion back here, so Denada can run his game.

    Thanks!

    AntimatterLeperElldren
  • LeperLeper Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Sorry 'bout that.
    Denada wrote: »
    ACTUALLY RELATED TO THE PLAYTEST: I'm thinking what I might do is put stuff I changed in a different color. Like if I've modified what you can do with the eye walls, I'll put that text in purple or something. I think it might be an interesting thing.
    I like this.

    Leper on
    If my role play is hindered by rolling to play, then I'd prefer the rolls play right, instead of steam-rolling play-night.
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Yea, I may have lost track of this as a thread specifically for Denada's game discussions. I'll put my response when I cobble one together over in the real 5th edition thread.

  • mr_michmr_mich Registered User regular
    Sorry for derailing the thread with 4e/5e talk...I'm going to stick with 4e because there's so much material and noob-related books and articles written for it already. Thanks for the help!

  • oxybeoxybe Entei is appaled and disappointed in you Registered User regular
    time for some keyhole finding action!

    hopefully.

    because i have a key and the only other room has no visible door.

    you can read my collected ravings at oxybesothertumbr.tumblr.com
    -Weather Badge
  • turtleantturtleant Gunpla Dad is the best.Registered User regular
    Dear me there is a lot of purple text over in the game thread. Can't wait to hear how it was supposed to go unedited Denada.

    X22wmuF.jpg
  • ChrysisChrysis Registered User regular
    Sorry I haven't been posting. Holidays, relatives visiting, etc, have taken up more motivation than I expected. Not that Ibilid had any particularly relevant skills to the proceeding room. I've been reading, and will try to chime in more often.

    Tri-Optimum reminds you that there are only one-hundred-sixty-three shopping days until Christmas. Just 1 extra work cycle twice a week will give you the spending money you need to make this holiday a very special one.
  • oxybeoxybe Entei is appaled and disappointed in you Registered User regular
    so i got new boots for Christmas.

    hooray!

    then on Saturday i failed my balance roll (to use 5th ed terms) and hurt my ankle. i wish i could say "gosh darn that ice" but it was indoors and entirely because i wasn't used to the boots yet so after a single misstep my foot went all crazy and i was limping for the last two days. oops.

    no big deal, the ankle is still a bit sore but i'm bored at home, unable to take a walk outside further then the nearby starbucks for a morning coffee and muffin since it's nice and brisk out (what's killing me is how sunny it is too :cry: ).

    so after watching about a dozen episodes of One Piece (as of writing this post, i've hit ep.300!) and enjoying my "breakfast" i go lie in bed and start doodling on a nearby sheet of paper. i doodle for a bit and realize i like what i'm doodling because it's Xi and Xi is silly.

    so i doodles some more, i gussy up the one i'm happiest with and here i give you Xi Rhox, attempting (and failing) a DYNAMIC ENTRY into the Mud Sorcerer's tomb.

    XiRhoxDYNAMICENTRY_zpsbeed9534.gif

    i don't think i've ever been giddier about a character who's only successes so far are "see indiscernible something in distance", "push button" and "pick up key".

    you can read my collected ravings at oxybesothertumbr.tumblr.com
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    AntimatterLeperMarshmallowAnialosElldrenAegeri
  • oxybeoxybe Entei is appaled and disappointed in you Registered User regular
    you know what i just realized?

    improved initiative's "if your initiative total is less then 10, treat it as 10" is nearly redundant. with dex being effectively a prime stat for 2/5 classes (monk & rogue), the smart choice for 1 class (fighter, little reason to pick Str main over Dex, but the option is still there) and a "still really nice to have" stat for the other 2 (wizards & clerics like going first so they can drop debuffs), you can be sure that most characters will keep their dex rather high.

    i can see most characters keeping their dex very high or at least decent since it covers a wide array of things (attack, damage, initiative, common save, armor class, stealth rolls, etc...). it's a power stat for non-casters and i would say it ties con for caster secondary.

    so what's nearly redundant about it (imp.init's secondary)? 20 dex is a +5 bonus while improved initiative is a +4 bonus. rolling a 1 gives you a 10.

    on guys like Xi, Herman, Ibilild & Rein (4/5 of the playtest characters, all who maxed out Dex) the feat's secondary ability does nothing since it's impossible for our initiative total to be less then 10 (unless we get some sort of dex drain/damage, initiative debuff or whatnot).

    for guys like Kelmon with an average dex, improved initiative basically means that it will take effect on 25% of his initiative rolls (1-5 on a d20) as anything higher would equal 10 or beat it.

    currently improved initiative's secondary is like getting some jimmies on your chocolate sundae: adds a little bit to the overall product (10 minimum), but you've really come for the chocolate sundae (+4 initiative). it's nice for some people, but most don't really notice it.

    if a secondary ability is really necessary to make it more appealing, i would recommend the secondary be something everyone would find useful, like getting advantage on your initiative roll, rather then only benefiting those who neglected dex.

    for comparison, advantage on initiative basically gives the guy with 10 dex and improved initiative (a total of +4 to initiative) a 6.25% chance of rolling under a 10 if he had advantage by making those numbers (1-5) simply appear less often but raises his average roll to around 17 as it makes the higher numbers appear more often.

    all the while both methods still have the same minimum and maximum (5 and 24), it just makes numbers nearing the minimum VERY unlikely and numbers nearing the maximum far more.

    FYI, to find my information i input :" output [highest of d20+4 and d20+4] " into anydice.com and it'll throw out the numbers (data:normal) and averages (data:summary).

    just my 2cp based on something i noticed.

    you can read my collected ravings at oxybesothertumbr.tumblr.com
    -Weather Badge
  • AnialosAnialos Collies are love, Collies are life! Shadowbrook ColliesRegistered User regular
    Immune to non-magical weapons?

    "there's sin enough without treating love like a sin"
  • DenadaDenada Registered User regular
    Yup! Except adamantine weapons. Those work fine.

    Anything else that isn't specifically listed works normally as well. Otherwise I'm really not sure how you guys could deal with these things.

  • oxybeoxybe Entei is appaled and disappointed in you Registered User regular
    ah, flat immunities... blech.

    what saddens me is, barring memory failure as i really only skimmed the bestiary, that the laundry list of immunities is a golem's only schtick. it's a sack of HP that deals lots of damage and has "immunities" (which are negated by 1 class feature, a metal or any magic weapon).

    also, there are two weapons that Xi's left behind on the unlocked pillar/safe that someone might want to pick up: a dagger and a sword. dunno if they're magical, but if you don't have FISTS OF STEEL like Xi or Ib and you don't have a magic weapon yet, it's something, at least.

    you can read my collected ravings at oxybesothertumbr.tumblr.com
    -Weather Badge
  • DenadaDenada Registered User regular
    Good thing I didn't take their advice and leave out magic items huh?

  • ChrysisChrysis Registered User regular
    Denada wrote: »
    Good thing I didn't take their advice and leave out magic items huh?

    They're cursed, aren't they?

    Tri-Optimum reminds you that there are only one-hundred-sixty-three shopping days until Christmas. Just 1 extra work cycle twice a week will give you the spending money you need to make this holiday a very special one.
  • AnialosAnialos Collies are love, Collies are life! Shadowbrook ColliesRegistered User regular
    Denada wrote: »
    Good thing I didn't take their advice and leave out magic items huh?

    Uh, so I'm supposed to just yell at them right? Cuz I ain't got no magic weapons.

    "there's sin enough without treating love like a sin"
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Denada wrote: »
    Good thing I didn't take their advice and leave out magic items huh?

    Heh. Heh, heh, heh.

    The laughter comes from being unable to decide if this is intentional or incompetence.

  • DenadaDenada Registered User regular
    You guys have three magic weapons somewhere in your bag of holding: a +1 dagger, a Mace of Disruption, and a Vorpal Sword. I'm fine with the three of you that don't have adamantine fists just suddenly remembering that you have one of those equipped.

    Last freebie for this fight: flasks of oil are technically not weapons.

  • AnialosAnialos Collies are love, Collies are life! Shadowbrook ColliesRegistered User regular
    Well, since Rhein wouldn't use any of those anyways, he'll flail ineffectually with a few arrows, since I doubt he'd monster knowledge their immunity off the bat.

    "there's sin enough without treating love like a sin"
  • wildwoodwildwood Registered User regular
    Heh. Heh, heh, heh.

    The laughter comes from being unable to decide if this is intentional or incompetence.

    Well, the bestiary lists three spells that can affect a golem, that are exceptions to the magic immunity. Except that none of those three spells exist anywhere in the spell list, for either clerics or wizards.

    Almost like a good chunk of this is playtest is just copy and paste.

  • NealnealNealneal Registered User regular
    edited January 2013
    I took the Vorpal sword, since even with reducing die type to d8 it was a much better weapon for old Kelmon.

    Just so you know...I don't expect to live very long, so I intend to use Combat surge to have some fun this turn.

    Nealneal on
  • ChrysisChrysis Registered User regular
    Look at all that lovely Purple text. Can we get a summary of how many of these changes are due to "puzzles" being impossible because we don't have a Wizard?

    Tri-Optimum reminds you that there are only one-hundred-sixty-three shopping days until Christmas. Just 1 extra work cycle twice a week will give you the spending money you need to make this holiday a very special one.
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    I want to mock Denada for changing so much but I just don't have it in me.

    I mean, think about if he hadn't.

  • oxybeoxybe Entei is appaled and disappointed in you Registered User regular
    heh. i'm also a bit curious as to what the initial puzzletrap was since half the text was purple.

    i'm wishing it's just a byproduct of my special dungeon crawling method, but i've a nagging itch that's not the full story.

    you can read my collected ravings at oxybesothertumbr.tumblr.com
    -Weather Badge
  • DenadaDenada Registered User regular
    The purple text is usually the result of one (or more) of these things:

    1. Xi did something that the designer didn't think of. For example, the walls are indestructible, but is the face? I don't know, but I'm going with yes because it's more fun that way. Plus the face does absolutely nothing. It just sits there being a face for no damn reason.

    2. The "puzzle", and I use the term begrudgingly even in quotes, would be impossible to solve without magic.

    3. I removed something, be it a trap, extra layer of "challenge", or some obtuse way of dealing with whatever you're looking at that makes no sense at all but is required to progress through the adventure.

    4. The writing on whatever thing you found is supposed to be in a different language, but none of you can read it and there is no way to learn it.

    Take the crying eyes as an example. For starters, you have to use magic to close them. But even assuming you did that, closing them has nothing to do with opening the door. They're not a lock. They're just there to pour acid on you while you try to find the secret door, which the adventure doesn't say how to open. That's terrible, so I 1) decided that closing all of the eyes would open the door, and 2) decided that regular light could close the eyes just as well as magic light.

    Have you noticed that almost every time you interact with the dungeon there's purple text?

    Yeah.

    Anialos
  • NealnealNealneal Registered User regular
    edited January 2013
    Like every time I've played Next, I'm enjoying the "table" banter and the character interactions infinitely more than the game itself. While I probably could use this system and wring some fun out of it, I could do the exact same thing with the one of the half-assed systems I created to use in my Halloween one shots.

    Nealneal on
  • oxybeoxybe Entei is appaled and disappointed in you Registered User regular
    if i can extrapolate something from what you're saying... if the party fails the search & unlock rolls to find/open the door in the red herring eyeball room, wouldn't they be stuck in the temple of unbreakable walls until they die of starvation since the original entry method closed on them?

    you can read my collected ravings at oxybesothertumbr.tumblr.com
    -Weather Badge
  • oxybeoxybe Entei is appaled and disappointed in you Registered User regular
    edited January 2013
    alright, so i cheated a bit. i went back and looked over the adventure for the room with the eyes.

    i believe it is technically impossible for the party to find the door.

    as in "there is no way we can make the check".

    it's a DC 25 int/search thing roll.

    none of the party has "search" as a trained skill and the highest int in the group is Herman and Kelmon's 14s. rather then 3rd & 4th's aid another, there is the "help" option which lets you give advantage to someone as long as you have a 10 in the correct skill.

    the highest total possible roll we can get is a 22. even if we used the aid another from a previous edition, we could only get a 24 tops.

    by the adventure rules, we should still now and forever be stuck in that room.

    HA!

    oxybe on
    you can read my collected ravings at oxybesothertumbr.tumblr.com
    -Weather Badge
    Anialos
  • DenadaDenada Registered User regular
    oxybe wrote: »
    if i can extrapolate something from what you're saying... if the party fails the search & unlock rolls to find/open the door in the red herring eyeball room, wouldn't they be stuck in the temple of unbreakable walls until they die of starvation since the original entry method closed on them?

    Yes. You can't break the walls, and you can't get out via magic (the dungeon is enchanted to specifically prevent this). If you fail a DC 25 Intelligence check there is literally nothing you can do except wait to die.

    You can probably understand why I made a few changes.

  • oxybeoxybe Entei is appaled and disappointed in you Registered User regular
    oh i figured stuff like this would happen.

    just not so early in the adventure, that the 2nd room could kill the PCs via technicality.

    you can read my collected ravings at oxybesothertumbr.tumblr.com
    -Weather Badge
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Denada wrote: »
    oxybe wrote: »
    if i can extrapolate something from what you're saying... if the party fails the search & unlock rolls to find/open the door in the red herring eyeball room, wouldn't they be stuck in the temple of unbreakable walls until they die of starvation since the original entry method closed on them?

    Yes. You can't break the walls, and you can't get out via magic (the dungeon is enchanted to specifically prevent this). If you fail a DC 25 Intelligence check there is literally nothing you can do except wait to die.

    You can probably understand why I made a few changes.

    That's it! Product conformance squads have been dispatched to seize your DM card!

  • wildwoodwildwood Registered User regular
    I bet Xi could give the portable rogue company a truly epic testimonial. :)

  • oxybeoxybe Entei is appaled and disappointed in you Registered User regular
    Xi's testimonial would be loud and enthusiastic at the very least, and while he would definitely say things about the Portable Rogue it's usability in a marketing campaign would be hit and miss, as he would come off like a slightly mad Billy Mays.

    "HELLO! XI RHOX HERE FOR PORTABLE ROGUE: THE TRAP SPECIALIST! POWERED BY THE VERY LOG YOU BURN, ACTIVATED BY THE VERY FOOT YOU PUT IN KOBOLDS, IT'S ADVENTURER APPROVED AND SAFE ON YOUR COLORED FABRICS!"

    the portable rogue is gaming the system in a very particular way.

    namely that it's made stupid cheap and a potion of healing is 25gp.

    i can get like 20 portable rogues for the cost of 1 healing potion. if it activates one trap and absorbs 7ish damage for anyone, it's done it's job, regardless of if it survives. if it does manage to survive the trap and be used a second time it's gone above and beyond the call of duty.

    it also doesn't remove the need for someone who's good with traps any more then a crowbar removes the need for a good lockpicker... the Portable Rogue is noisy, unsubtle and can't do much to stop a trap beyond activating it, which can cause problems in itself. it's a somewhat decent replacement if no rogue is available, but it can at be paired up with a rogue to scout ahead and let the rogue handle the more specialized tasks.

    no need to throw the poor rogue into needless danger. especially if that danger is a pit trap that contains a gaggle of poisonous wasp spewing vipers, or some other BS. once we know the pit is there, the rogue can lock it closed and we've just saved ourselves the cost of a poison cure/restoration/whatever and a healing potion(s).

    note that something like the swingy blade trap will still keep swinging once activated... the PR will just let you know that it's there. you still need to find a way to deal with it.

    you can read my collected ravings at oxybesothertumbr.tumblr.com
    -Weather Badge
  • XagarXagar Registered User regular
    I feel like it's really not too much help with the kind of obtuse, overtly magical traps you seem to be facing, though.

  • oxybeoxybe Entei is appaled and disappointed in you Registered User regular
    yeah it's way better in the early game, but regardless of level you're better safe then sorry, and for the price of like, 1.5gp, you have little to lose.

    you can read my collected ravings at oxybesothertumbr.tumblr.com
    -Weather Badge
  • oxybeoxybe Entei is appaled and disappointed in you Registered User regular
    oh look, purple text. Xi is doing something the designer didn't think of.

    you can read my collected ravings at oxybesothertumbr.tumblr.com
    -Weather Badge
  • LeperLeper Registered User regular
    [Predictable lack of thought snark]

    Also... I am unsure how, but comparing Xi to a "slightly mad Billy Mays" manages to be both redundant and a bit of an understatement all at once.

    If my role play is hindered by rolling to play, then I'd prefer the rolls play right, instead of steam-rolling play-night.
  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    hooray for randomly determined levels of competence.

    Steam PSN: DerWaffleMous Origin: DerWaffleMous Bnet: DerWaffle#1682
  • oxybeoxybe Entei is appaled and disappointed in you Registered User regular
    first skeletons now mummies.

    see, if i were to totally disassociate myself and treat this as not only a game, but a challenge to be overcome, i would have requested that weground that skelly we found earlier in a coffin to dust before even touching the scrollcase. the fact it didn't just rise up and boogety-boo us with a "i was a lich all along!" was a surprise.

    now this? a mummy with a big-assed gem? i am so tempted to just say "let's spike the mother in the face and burn it". we got 8 flasks of oil and i've got a tinderbox. also: my punch is a flamethrower... it's a monk thing. gems are fireproof right? right?

    gosh darn it i just want to light that mummy on fire. now i'm sure the skeleton we found earlier was a red herring, because this? a moderately-well preserved dead guy clutching big-ol' hunka valuable rock? my danger sense is tingling and first metagame remedy i can think of is gratuitous applications of fire.

    you can read my collected ravings at oxybesothertumbr.tumblr.com
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