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[Stand Your Ground] II: Florida Boogaloo

245

Posts

  • SammyFSammyF Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    The problem with stand your ground laws is that they stop murderers from getting convicted, not that they cause shootings to happen.

    I imagine that to some extent the broad language in Florida's self defense law and the sometimes inconsistent application thereof does color the training and instruction people give and receive during concealed carry or self defense courses and does influence the thought process some people use when they approach the potential application of violence.

    But you are right that assholes gonna be assholes regardless of what the law says. Virginia has a common law understanding of self defense, and one of my neighbors was telling me just last week about two cases that were basically a hit-list of every no-no that relates to self defense: fired upon a mere trespasser (case law in Virginia does not recognize the legality of the use of deadly force to defend property), continued firing after the trespasser turned to flee, pursued the trespasser down a public street firing multiple rounds which didn't hit the trespasser (but obviously had to hit something the shooter wasn't aiming at) and then finally shot him twice in the back -- with one round apparently being fired from a much closer range than the other. Claimed when charged that they were using self defense.

    Jury nullification in one case, too.

    SammyF on
  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    "Can I shoot this black kid and get away with it? Well... I am white. But that's not really good enough anymore, these days. Oh wait! I forgot! There's that one law on the books! Something about standing your ground, I think? I'll bet I can shoot this black kid now and get away with it!"

    Please to provide any evidence to support this conclusion

    The only evidence I need is in the OP: older white guy shots the young black kid, cites SYG.

    And the Treyvon Martin/George Zimmerman case, of course.

  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    I think at this point we're arguing past each other. SYG is a terrible law and it needs to go away. Forever. Florida has clearly shown that it just doesn't have the collective sense as a state to have this kind of thing on the books.

  • EvigilantEvigilant VARegistered User regular
    I feel like these people don't know about SYG until after they've shot someone and another person tells them about it, because I think these people would've shot the person regardless if SYG existed or not. I believe this because I don't think people stay on the up and up on laws, even gun laws.

    Essentially, a person can be a decent individual but people are horrible stupid assholes to each other.

    XBL\PSN\Steam\Origin: Evigilant
  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    Even if the person is wrong about the law (and it sounds like this person was), the SYG laws aren't exactly unknown, particularly after the Martin case, and if a person just has some notion that he'll be legally protected if he shoots someone he "feels weird" about, that can be enough to tip the scales whereas an ordinary notion of self-defense would hold you back.

    And when it turns out they were wrong, it isn't as though you can bring their victims back to life.

  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    Evigilant wrote: »
    I feel like these people don't know about SYG until after they've shot someone and another person tells them about it, because I think these people would've shot the person regardless if SYG existed or not. I believe this because I don't think people stay on the up and up on laws, even gun laws.

    Essentially, a person can be a decent individual but people are horrible stupid assholes to each other.

    The George Zimmerman/Treyvon Martin thing received a lot of press earlier this year. Especially in Florida. The people there know well about SYG.

  • SammyFSammyF Registered User regular
    Evigilant wrote: »
    I feel like these people don't know about SYG until after they've shot someone and another person tells them about it, because I think these people would've shot the person regardless if SYG existed or not. I believe this because I don't think people stay on the up and up on laws, even gun laws.

    Essentially, a person can be a decent individual but people are horrible stupid assholes to each other.

    Generally speaking, I believe you are correct in that people don't stay up to date on laws. However, the self-selecting sample of individuals who apply for concealed carry licenses and take a concealed carry course are much more likely to have been informed about the law at least once. Firearm advocate groups can be very aggressive about educating their membership.

    (The NRA also makes an effort to monetize the back-end of this education effort nowadays by offering an insurance policy to help cover the legal costs for members who are criminally charged after allegedly shooting another person in self defense, and I don't know whether to laugh at people who think they need insurance to cover the likelihood that they're going to willfully kill another person or not).

  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    I bet their premiums are super high for residents of Florida.

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    I guess the only thing I'm trying to point out is that the "barrier to action" for these people wasn't super high to begin with.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    I agree with what AMFE is saying. SYG may not have had a significant effect on whether the person pulled the trigger, but after talking to the lawyer about it afterwards it sure dues muddy the waters.

    ...and when you are done with that; take a folding
    chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    Right, but when you're dealing with a population of people, "Pretty low barrier" will still prevent more deaths than "Extremely low barrier."

    Especially if all the gun nuts have been reading the news recently (and after the laws were passed) and what they take away from it was "hey! they lowered the barrier on when I can shoot people!"

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Actually my contention is that the barrier for the type of person who's just going to gun down a rando on the street is so low that changes to the law have a negligible effect for them to take action.

    I don't think SYG is causing shootings anymore than I think arms restrictions would prevent the next Aurora or Brevik. I don't like the law, I want to see it changed or gotten rid of, but I don't think its negative effect is the easy one we're, erm, shooting toward in here.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Boo! Get off the stage!

    ...and when you are done with that; take a folding
    chair to Creation and then suplex the Void.
  • KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    You're imagining that every person who shoots someone and claims SYG defense is a hopped-up vigilante who thinks nothing of gunning people down. I agree that any law isn't going to do much to stop that person, but that's hardly the only person who will decide to shoot someone thinking that the SYG will protect them from prosecution.

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    KalTorak wrote: »
    You're imagining that every person who shoots someone and claims SYG defense is a hopped-up vigilante who thinks nothing of gunning people down. I agree that any law isn't going to do much to stop that person, but that's hardly the only person who will decide to shoot someone thinking that the SYG will protect them from prosecution.

    Well the next time someone that doesn't fit the profile commits one of these murders I guess I'll change my mind.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    I think I'm going to abstain from commenting too much on this until more facts are out.

    Because I currently think the guy totally fits the profile of a racist gun nut, but if his story has any shred of truth to it that muddies waters considerably.

    Concealed-carry laws are a contentious point, largely because they're constitutionally supported but largely desired by people who will use them irresponsibly. It's very similar in that regard to someone raising pit bulls or buying a high-performance motorcycle; there's nothing inherently illegal about the act, but few people obtain those things with an aim to act responsibly.

    I will say that the right-wing dipshit subculture and the urban subculture that appeals to young black men seem constitutionally designed to keep fighting this battle forever.

  • ZomroZomro Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Look that kid was dangerously alive while black I think the Martin case already showed that puts anyone in florida in danger.

    Is it possible for you to not do this? Yes, there are horrible racists in Florida, but let's not paint the entire population with the racist brush. As a resident of Florida who is not a horrible racist, it's insulting.

  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    Saying SYG doesn't contribute to shootings because we can't point to an individual shooting that we can say would have been prevented without it is the wrong attitude

    It contributes to a culture of acceptance for gun nuts, it's one thing among many in letting gun nuts be seen as part of civilized society. It's like how you can't point to sandy and say "global warming", but you can say global warming is probably contributing to hurricanes

  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    Kana wrote: »
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    The only reason the Martin case is a crapfest is because there are no credible witnesses.

    Lesson learned from this article? Don't argue with pissed off strangers. Things like this happen everday and outside of Florida.

    Other lesson learned: if you've screwed up and shot someone, shoot his friends too. As long as there's no survivors you're standing your ground.

    Took a handgun safety course a few years ago because a friend wanted company and it was interesting and pretty sensible....until we got to this:

    "Two things, first if you are pointing a gun at a criminal do not hesitate to shoot because he's a bad guy and he won't hesitate to get it away from you."

    Hey, probably good advice. If you're pointing a gun at a person you should definitely be ready to shoot or you have no business pointing it at somebody. Then he went on:

    "...and remember, if somebody breaks into your home and you do have to shoot....You only want there to be one witness."

    What, one witness what does he mean.....WOA, WAIT A MINUTE.

    Commended NRA instructor there.

    What the shit?

  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Oh, and I forgot to mention he's one of the few people with a full concealed carry permit around here.

    NY state is super stingy in offering concealed carry permits, most permits that are issued are heavily restricted like "To the range and back" restricted. He was carrying while making these statements.

    Nod. Get treat. PSN: Quippish
  • DetharinDetharin Registered User regular
    So the guy has still been arrested and appeared before a judge and plead not guilty. He still has to go through a hearing to establish if SYG even applies, and then will likely face trial if it does not apply. However despite the fact that it has not even been established if he will go to prison or not I am supposed to start freaking the hell out because of two media shitstorms this year over stand your ground. This is not moving the needle on my careometer. Maybe if half the country did not have similar laws that might help.

  • emp123emp123 Registered User regular
    Concealed-carry laws are a contentious point, largely because they're constitutionally supported but largely desired by people who will use them irresponsibly. It's very similar in that regard to someone raising pit bulls or buying a high-performance motorcycle; there's nothing inherently illegal about the act, but few people obtain those things with an aim to act responsibly.

    I dunno, I think thats painting a lot of decent people with that brush. I think the majority of concealed carry holders are decent people who will in all likelihood never use their weapon against someone, but I also live in a state where the only way you can get a concealed carry permit is if there is a threat against you (or your children).

  • Jubal77Jubal77 Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Saying SYG doesn't contribute to shootings because we can't point to an individual shooting that we can say would have been prevented without it is the wrong attitude

    It contributes to a culture of acceptance for gun nuts, it's one thing among many in letting gun nuts be seen as part of civilized society. It's like how you can't point to sandy and say "global warming", but you can say global warming is probably contributing to hurricanes

    There is a rather large population of gun holders in the USA and a very minor part of that population shows ineptitude with common sense. There is a place in civilized society for the responsible individuals just like with anything you can compare to it. For example people who are consistently stupid with cars or alcohol etc.

    Jubal77 on
  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    I don't think "self-restraint" is binary. Some people care about staying out of trouble. Some don't. Some don't know where trouble comes from. Some just need a bad day to attack people. Or maybe a good day. Others want to gain something to bother. Some people want to gain something and stay out of trouble.
    Some people discriminate how they react to different types of people. Some care about the wellbeing of some citizens, but not all. Some don't like hurting anybody, but are stupid and afraid. Some are stupid and afraid of everything. Some are stupid but most afraid of trouble with the law.

  • MvrckMvrck Dwarven MountainhomeRegistered User regular
    Zomro wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    Look that kid was dangerously alive while black I think the Martin case already showed that puts anyone in florida in danger.

    Is it possible for you to not do this? Yes, there are horrible racists in Florida, but let's not paint the entire population with the racist brush. As a resident of Florida who is not a horrible racist, it's insulting.

    As someone who spent every every moment of his childhood trying desperately to get away from Florida, then moving back years later thing "Meh, maybe it wasn't so bad". No. Florida is a fucking shit hole full of awful people and the genuinely decent folk are few and far between. If you are one of them, awesome, kudos to you.

    Get the fuck out of the state while you can.

    As far as Florida's SYG law goes, it's fucking pathetic, and this is the 5th? case I can think of happening since 05. One involed a guy an old roommate knew, the shooter got off, despite having followed the person he shot out to his vehicle leaving the party they were at. It is a goddamned abomination and needs to go.

    Sadly, it never will because the NRA throws a goddamned fit whenever it's brought up. Non-insane gun owners need to put together an organization to counter the NRA because at this point they are doing more to hurt gun rights than anyone else for all the horrible shit they support.

  • Jubal77Jubal77 Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Now the Trayvon case has been a tragic comedy from the get go. A kid lost his life and a dumb ass took it. Now the courts are supposed to decide if it was self defense or not. Well the Defense released the full color photos dumb ass' head at the scene in the cop car. Comparing this with the released autopsy reports I have to say it is not looking good for that Prosecutor proving Trayvon was not the aggressor. At this point the Defense can support Trayvon was the aggressor and can win even without SYG law.
    121204-zimmerman-scene-photo-05-1130a.photoblog600.jpg

    Jubal77 on
  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    I assume that photo is from the Martin/Zimmerman case. Is this thread for that? I didn't think it was.

  • Jubal77Jubal77 Registered User regular
    Eh. Its a SYG thread and that case has been brought up several times.

  • DetharinDetharin Registered User regular
    Mvrck wrote: »
    As far as Florida's SYG law goes, it's fucking pathetic, and this is the 5th? case I can think of happening since 05.

    You mean the law that over half the country has some version of is absolutely pathetic due to 5 cases in 7 years. My god that is terrible. Well not in comparison to the 7370 murders in Florida between 2005-2011, but still possibly terrible light. Maybe Diet-Terrible. Terrible 0. Just a little bit of Terrible?

    Take the bullshit media clusterfuck from earlier this year that was Martin/Zimmerman that became the poster child for ZOMG SYG IS BAD. As we get more and more information surprise SYG likely does not even apply as plain old self defense has Zimmerman covered.

  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    Saying SYG doesn't contribute to shootings because we can't point to an individual shooting that we can say would have been prevented without it is the wrong attitude

    It contributes to a culture of acceptance for gun nuts, it's one thing among many in letting gun nuts be seen as part of civilized society. It's like how you can't point to sandy and say "global warming", but you can say global warming is probably contributing to hurricanes

    There is a rather large population of gun holders in the USA and a very minor part of that population shows ineptitude with common sense. There is a place in civilized society for the responsible individuals just like with anything you can compare to it. For example people who are consistently stupid with cars or alcohol etc.

    I said gun nuts, why would you think that means everyone who owns a gun

    Using your driving a car example, here in Wisconsin until very recently we had essentially no penalty for driving drunk. This contributed to a culture of drunk driving in the same way I believe SYG contributes to a culture that says its okay to shoot a teenager who stole something, or pursue a kid in your car and then initiate a confrontation and shoot him

    override367 on
  • Jubal77Jubal77 Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Jubal77 wrote: »
    Saying SYG doesn't contribute to shootings because we can't point to an individual shooting that we can say would have been prevented without it is the wrong attitude

    It contributes to a culture of acceptance for gun nuts, it's one thing among many in letting gun nuts be seen as part of civilized society. It's like how you can't point to sandy and say "global warming", but you can say global warming is probably contributing to hurricanes

    There is a rather large population of gun holders in the USA and a very minor part of that population shows ineptitude with common sense. There is a place in civilized society for the responsible individuals just like with anything you can compare to it. For example people who are consistently stupid with cars or alcohol etc.

    I said gun nuts, why would you think that means everyone who owns a gun

    Using your driving a car example, here in Wisconsin until very recently we had essentially no penalty for driving drunk. This contributed to a culture of drunk driving in the same way I believe SYG contributes to a culture that says its okay to shoot a teenager who stole something, or pursue a kid in your car and then initiate a confrontation and shoot him

    Actually since the last two big cases concerned individuals with concealed permits can you really state that SYG contributed to the shootings? I do not say how you can conclusively state that it did.

    Jubal77 on
  • DetharinDetharin Registered User regular
    Perhaps because it is a meaningless nebulous definition that does not really do well to define anything. A drunk driver by comparison is a pretty descriptive term. Hell it does not help when you considering statistically CCW holders are some of the people least likely to commit crimes.

  • CalixtusCalixtus Registered User regular
    I for one am absolutely certain that a lack of legal sanctions for gunning people down has no effect whatsoever on people's willingness to gun people down.

    Because fuck me, when has prison ever discouraged anything?

    -This message was deviously brought to you by:
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Detharin wrote: »
    Detharin wrote: »
    Perhaps because it is a meaningless nebulous definition that does not really do well to define anything. A drunk driver by comparison is a pretty descriptive term. Hell it does not help when you considering statistically CCW holders are some of the people least likely to commit crimes.
    Killing someone under dubious circumstances with SYG isn't a crime

    override367 on
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Detharin wrote: »
    Detharin wrote: »
    Perhaps because it is a meaningless nebulous definition that does not really do well to define anything. A drunk driver by comparison is a pretty descriptive term. Hell it does not help when you considering statistically CCW holders are some of the people least likely to commit crimes.
    Killing someone under dubious circumstances with SYG isn't a crime

    Actually, it generally is. It just makes it harder to prosecute; for the killing to actually be legal legitimate self-defence is still required.

    There's still a difference between something being difficult to prosecute and something actually being legal, though.

  • HacksawHacksaw J. Duggan Esq. Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    Calixtus wrote: »
    I for one am absolutely certain that a lack of legal sanctions for gunning people down has no effect whatsoever on people's willingness to gun people down.

    Because fuck me, when has prison ever discouraged anything?

    Uh, usually always?

  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    Hacksaw wrote: »
    Calixtus wrote: »
    I for one am absolutely certain that a lack of legal sanctions for gunning people down has no effect whatsoever on people's willingness to gun people down.

    Because fuck me, when has prison ever discouraged anything?

    Uh, usually always?

    I wouldn't say always given there's crimes of passions, the mentally unbalanced, as well as criminals whose choices were prison or starve.

    But it's certainly not not a deterrent.

    But I also think Calixtus was also being sarcastic.

  • DetharinDetharin Registered User regular
    Of course not, nor should it be. Because under dubious circumstances we cannot establish beyond a reasonable doubt. Should we be imprisoning people for crimes when we cannot even firmly establish a crime was in fact committed? Again you are talking about a law that 25/50 states have some version of. Between 2005-2011 7370 people were murdered in Florida. Yet here we stand arguing about a law based on two cases in one year. One of which looks like the shooter was in fact acting in self defense, in which case SYG would not even apply. The second has not even had a hearing yet to see if SYG would even apply. We are not even arguing about a valid case where SYG was applied to let an obvious murder walk. This is a non-story. Its a bullshit hit piece to get people fired up because opinions are more important than facts. Right now the fact is SYG cases are statistically noise and likely have less effect on murder rates than the phases of the moon and which teams are going to the playoffs.

  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    One of which looks like the shooter was in fact acting in self defense, in which case SYG would not even apply.

    I keep seeing variations of this, and I'm confused. "Stand your ground" laws are a part of self-defense laws, not separate from them. They merely define (or rather redefine) when you are allowed to defend yourself. You must still be acting in self-defense.

    Maybe you're thinking of "castle doctrine" laws, which establish an implied threat of great bodily harm for anybody that breaks into your house while you're home?

    I think a lot of people talk about both these laws without having much of an understanding of what they actually mean, or how they interacted with existing self-defense laws. They're just handy buzzwords.

    mcdermott on
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Like, you don't get to "stand your ground" against somebody who is not actually attacking you. Not legally, at least. You need, at a minimum, the threat of great bodily harm in order to act* in self defense, whether of the ground-standing or had-no-choice variety.

    * - With deadly force, that is.

    mcdermott on
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