First off, minor thing. Starting with Chakra Magic at 1 for Slark is silly. Your team's composition seemed pretty bad, since there's no real way to set it up with good lanes and you were given KotL on a team that had no ways for mana to promote early aggression unless you're laning with NS, who probably should have been mid? But anyway: Chakra Magic start is stupid because A: He's not gonna run through that much mana, and B: Slark using mana early is a sign he's about to kill himself because he's awful at doing anything without a hard disable gank pre-ult.
Early lane, you need to focus more on denying, and just get *better* at it. You miss a lot of last hits/denies and it looks like Slark is playing the "I know you're going to fuck up and leave the creep with 1 HP so I've got to time everything perfectly to last hit" thing, and is also getting most of the denies for you. Once you're confident in that, you can even tell him to not deny and focus on the LHs. Also, try to time your harassment nuking of Juggernaut so it isn't hitting the entire wave; pushing him in with a jungler (Centaur, of all things!) isn't bad because he can't LH well under the tower, but you guys didn't have the ward coverage for it. If you want to push in that much try to make it so you last hit a couple creeps when you harass so you aren't just screwing Slark over, and try to last hit the guys that wind up under the tower in such a way that Slark can't really last hit without taking tower aggro.
First fight: Slark was stupid, so were you. Slark focusing on Q instead of leap is REALLY stupid and screwed him over in the escape. For you, trying to charge up your spell to harass wasn't great when centaur was right there, and salve was silly; he cast his spells on you and you weren't dead, and you had boots so you were faster, so popping salve before you casually strolled out of his range was pretty useless and wasted about 370 potential HP.
After that, you... cheerfully dropped a ward basically on top of their tower. I don't know why. It was also tucked in those trees enough it didn't actually grant significant vision past the curve, which is what I assume it was for. Drop wards in the jungle such that it stops jungling and you can see their jungler.
After that it's a good bit of roaming and fighting. I feel like you probably could have been better about not taking hits from carries, since if your intent is to "push" with sniper and KotL on their second mid tower with no dead and a known Centaur jungler, you're not making a wise decision anyway. One of the wards just sits in your inventory for a long time as well. In the actual fights you seem to be competent early on, but Mana Leak would probably have been a good pickup considering they have quite a few heroes with spells that cost a lot relative to their pool (juggernaut, morphling).
After that the DCs happened and I unfortunately have to run so I can't analyze it in a detailed fashion, but it looks a lot like your team in general was horribly out of position a lot, including yourself (and yes, "defending a tower" with nobody else around except, if I remember right, your Night Stalker is basically being out of position that late in the game), and that led to AoE CC blasting the hell out of you because the enemy team had an actually good composition.
It seems like Keeper is super dangerous early game, but he seems to decline in power towards mid- to late-game?
that is typically true for all supports. But a spirit breaker with 1 kill and 2 assists, with his only items being vlads and treads, and another melee also has vlads... I feel safe saying I'm pretty sure you weren't the reason your team lost. There isn't any excuse for having less than 100 gpm.
I see many Kotl players fall into a trap tho. Just because you 'can' nuke a creep wave doesn't mean that you should. You often end up robbing farm from a carry.
Keeper is pretty useful all game long. He's really dangerous around level 4-8, when he can Chakra/Illuminate all damn day, but Illuminate is always useful for decimating creep waves. I'd say he's relevant the whole game.
Very hard to keep him relevant into late game, most of the time come late game and people have bkb plus some sort of initation, he ends up being a liability. He's a horrible problem early though, as good ones can hide the Q chargeup and take a giant dump on the enemy laners.
global mana regen that helps every lane (and now with the recent change, lets you spam your own spells hard) vs .5 seconds more of cc and a tad more damage.
i'm not saying her spells are bad or anything but if you want to ignore her aura and get a support with two disables and a teamfight ultimate, there are better heroes to pick. CM is her aura. That's her thing
I'm going to have to go ahead and sort of disagree with you there bob. She's got mean early cc, if you're not using that to secure first blood, or conquer your lane early, you're wasting her skills. It all depends on lane matchups and picks though, if you've got Tiny or some other low mana pool, big combo heroes on your team, probably better to get that aura up early.
Her CC is effective even with only 1 level in each ability. If you are desperate to get early kills why not get any of the nuker/stunners who can disable the enemy while dealing heavy damage?
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes to make it possible." - T.E. Lawrence
Well, SB quit pretty early on, as did the other team's Morph. The game was kind of a CF.
I just finished watching the replay. Based on the team comp including the lanes and the item builds, I wouldn't care much about being blamed for the loss. You did fine.
Her CC is effective even with only 1 level in each ability. If you are desperate to get early kills why not get any of the nuker/stunners who can disable the enemy while dealing heavy damage?
so people who value her CC are desperate? And she does pretty decent damage. Fundamentally, its all situational, but if you were laning Crystal Maiden with a Juggernaut and you didn't max either Frostbite or Nova first, I'd call you an idiot.
But if CM was laning with PL, and had a Zeus mid, with WR offlane and Enigma in the jungle, then for sure her aura would be the first thing I'd max.
Also, people can buy clarity potions for 50 gold. CC costs at least 3k.
Venomancer, Lina, Shadow Shaman, and many others do a better job when it comes to getting kills with Juggernaut, purely through dealing a lot more damage while providing similar control. If you don't pick her for her aura then she is a bad pick because other heroes do her role better than her. You can use her like that, but it's like carrying with Dazzle or using Naga for support.
Grey Paladin on
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes to make it possible." - T.E. Lawrence
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Veno doesn't do nearly as much burst as CM does (before ulti)
Lina doesn't have nearly as much control as CM does, and her CC is much harder to land
Shadow Shaman doesn't do as much burst as CM does, and is not as good a support - he works best getting levels quickly so he can push down towers with his ult.
Not many supports have a CC nuke + slow nuke like CM does. And really, who is spamming their spells so much that an aura is helpful but isn't picking up a bottle?
Venomancer, Lina, Shadow Shaman, and many others do a better job when it comes to getting kills with Juggernaut, purely through dealing a lot more damage while providing similar control. If you don't pick her for her aura then she is a bad pick because other heroes do her role better than her. You can use her like that, but it's like carrying with Dazzle or using Naga for support.
I think all those supports are pretty different in what they do. You can go aura or you can push offensive early damage with her. Both are viable, but I like to think setting up an early kill in your lane, especially if you have good carry with you, is important with her; at least in pub games where you can't really count on your other lanes to succeed in their roles.
Not many supports have a CC nuke + slow nuke like CM does. And really, who is spamming their spells so much that an aura is helpful but isn't picking up a bottle?
It's a pretty big boon for heroes with low mana pools and big spells early game. Which is why if I had a CK , or Tiny on my team and I was CM, I would prioritize the aura. Sand King too.
veno does not have a disable and lina's is unreliable and its length doesn't scale. SS is a comparable pick, but doesn't have as much range. and of course you level CM aura, but you never max it first. Thats just dumb. It isn't till the point where a ganking carry can start roaming before he needs extra mana. The aura usually doesn't provide enough mana for your teammates on the other side of the map to spam their opponents out of lane. It is best at giving sustain to midgame gankers.
CM is a liability come late game, and for a support, she offers little in the way of utility. That's not to say she doesn't have her niche, but she's not in a great place right now.
"If a cherry pie filled cape is wrong, I don't want to be right.
I'm dead serious."
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Dac VinS-s-screw you! I only listen to DOUBLE MUSIC!Registered Userregular
edited December 2012
Speaking of extra mana: Any tips for dealing with a Sven/Keeper of the Light combo? More specifically, dealing with it as Luna, with her small range. Early on the lane is tough but still manageable, but after both Sven and KotL have a few levels it becomes outright unlivable and farming in it is outright suicide - Sven stuns, he always has the mana for it, then KotL launches his nuke, doesn't even bother to fully chage it because they can just repeat it ad infinitum.
My solution was to just abandon the lane and scrounge up all the other farm available on the map, not really sure I could have done more about it.
e: Supports are liabilities late game because early on you are the alpha male and should act like one.
CM is a liability come late game, and for a support, she offers little in the way of utility. That's not to say she doesn't have her niche, but she's not in a great place right now.
How is she anymore of a "liability" than any other support come late game? I'd rather have a cm in my lane than a veno, ss or lina. I'd love to see her get some buffs, mainly increase her god awful move speed and attack animation, and do SOMETHING with her aura, as it's pretty basic at the moment. But she's far from a "liability"
Minerva_SC on
"If a cherry pie filled cape is wrong, I don't want to be right.
I'm dead serious."
CM is a liability come late game, and for a support, she offers little in the way of utility. That's not to say she doesn't have her niche, but she's not in a great place right now.
How is she anymore of a "liability" than any other support come late game? I'd rather have a cm in my lane than a veno, ss or lina. I'd love to see her get some buffs, mainly increase her god awful move speed and attack animation, and do SOMETHING with her aura, as it's pretty basic at the moment. But she's far from a "liability"
She's got very, very low strength gain compared to other supports. She has middling range. She has nothing that goes through BKB. Her aura is pretty terrible after laning phase. Her ultimate can be good, but is very difficult to use effectively (lol 400 mana). Her counterpush is terrible. Her AA harass is meh. Her movespeed is abysmal. She has no escapes. The damage on her abilities is low.
Those are all relative to other supports.
She's got one of the strongest early stuns in the game on top of a very competitive slow. That's about it.
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
The only "tanky" supports (supports, mind you, not initiators, which are a different breed entirely) are strength based ones like Undying, or Jakiro and Dark Seer.
what is with people getting mad over opinions on video games?
Compare her strength and gains to Bane, SD, Ogre, Disruptor, Shaker, Omni, Vengeful. Most others are about the same as her.
The range on her abilities always seemed pretty low to me. She does have a nice AA range, iirc, but it's low damage and a huge wind up.
Fiend's Grip, Demonic Purge, Serpent Wards, Nether Swap, and Fissure all are effective through BKB. Wisp's ult is also there, but I don't think it really counts.
3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Just want to point out that all of Earthshaker's skills are blocked by BKB. The only one that isn't is the initial damage portion of Echo Slam. Fissure and Aftershock both are completely stopped by it.
CM is a liability come late game, and for a support, she offers little in the way of utility. That's not to say she doesn't have her niche, but she's not in a great place right now.
She seems a lot better since the that last big patch, though the changes looked pretty minor. I don't think she comes close to providing the versatility of some other support types heroes, but she has her place, and I sure seem to see her in a lot of games...
Just want to point out that all of Earthshaker's skills are blocked by BKB. The only one that isn't is the initial damage portion of Echo Slam. Fissure and Aftershock both are completely stopped by it.
Can you walk through the wall of dirt if you have BKB on? I'm honestly not sure.
what is with people getting mad over opinions on video games?
Compare her strength and gains to Bane, SD, Ogre, Disruptor, Shaker, Omni, Vengeful. Most others are about the same as her.
The range on her abilities always seemed pretty low to me. She does have a nice AA range, iirc, but it's low damage and a huge wind up.
Fiend's Grip, Demonic Purge, Serpent Wards, Nether Swap, and Fissure all are effective through BKB. Wisp's ult is also there, but I don't think it really counts.
I disagree on the aura.
i'm not mad, but I strongly object to bullshit. her range is great. She can nuke from 1100 units away with Nova, her AA range is among the highest in the game, and even Frostbite has 500 range.
so her strength gain is lower than some. you said she has "very very low strength gain compared to other supports". her str gain is higher than Lina, Veno, Shadow Shaman, Lich, Rubick, Leshrac, Enchantress, and more.
So on 2 counts, you flat out lied. What about this game is so important to you that you feel the need to make up bullshit to convince other people that a hero is bad?
As for abilities that go through BKB, many supports have nothing. Jakiro, Lina, Lich, & Leshrac have nothing that goes through BKB. I wouldn't count Serpent Wards and I think Nether Swap is questionable given that who ever has it on is probably right in the middle of your team chewing shit up.
you are wrong and it's something easily checked in dota 2 practice games (and i did) playdota has the aoe listed correctly (i.e: 400 aoe => 200 radius)
you are wrong and it's something easily checked in dota 2 practice games (and i did) playdota has the aoe listed correctly (i.e: 400 aoe => 200 radius)
eh, you are wrong and its something easily checked by reading and using your brain. AoE is listed by radius, not diameter. The AoE of CM's Freezing Field is 685, which means if its radius, it slightly outrages her autoattack. If its diameter, it would be slightly more than half her autoattack range. Guess which one of those is true.
of course, if you really did open a dota 2 practice game, you could have simply checked the in game spell description that CLEARLY states that it has a RADIUS of 400. you could also use the range display, set it at 900, and see if you can hit anything outside it with Nova (omg you can)
huh, my bad.i quickly tested it by checking to see if you have to walk forward to cast it 1100 range - and you do, because frost nova's radius looks like it's actually 340 or something like that in dota 2. u rite u rite
Posts
First off, minor thing. Starting with Chakra Magic at 1 for Slark is silly. Your team's composition seemed pretty bad, since there's no real way to set it up with good lanes and you were given KotL on a team that had no ways for mana to promote early aggression unless you're laning with NS, who probably should have been mid? But anyway: Chakra Magic start is stupid because A: He's not gonna run through that much mana, and B: Slark using mana early is a sign he's about to kill himself because he's awful at doing anything without a hard disable gank pre-ult.
Early lane, you need to focus more on denying, and just get *better* at it. You miss a lot of last hits/denies and it looks like Slark is playing the "I know you're going to fuck up and leave the creep with 1 HP so I've got to time everything perfectly to last hit" thing, and is also getting most of the denies for you. Once you're confident in that, you can even tell him to not deny and focus on the LHs. Also, try to time your harassment nuking of Juggernaut so it isn't hitting the entire wave; pushing him in with a jungler (Centaur, of all things!) isn't bad because he can't LH well under the tower, but you guys didn't have the ward coverage for it. If you want to push in that much try to make it so you last hit a couple creeps when you harass so you aren't just screwing Slark over, and try to last hit the guys that wind up under the tower in such a way that Slark can't really last hit without taking tower aggro.
First fight: Slark was stupid, so were you. Slark focusing on Q instead of leap is REALLY stupid and screwed him over in the escape. For you, trying to charge up your spell to harass wasn't great when centaur was right there, and salve was silly; he cast his spells on you and you weren't dead, and you had boots so you were faster, so popping salve before you casually strolled out of his range was pretty useless and wasted about 370 potential HP.
After that, you... cheerfully dropped a ward basically on top of their tower. I don't know why. It was also tucked in those trees enough it didn't actually grant significant vision past the curve, which is what I assume it was for. Drop wards in the jungle such that it stops jungling and you can see their jungler.
After that it's a good bit of roaming and fighting. I feel like you probably could have been better about not taking hits from carries, since if your intent is to "push" with sniper and KotL on their second mid tower with no dead and a known Centaur jungler, you're not making a wise decision anyway. One of the wards just sits in your inventory for a long time as well. In the actual fights you seem to be competent early on, but Mana Leak would probably have been a good pickup considering they have quite a few heroes with spells that cost a lot relative to their pool (juggernaut, morphling).
After that the DCs happened and I unfortunately have to run so I can't analyze it in a detailed fashion, but it looks a lot like your team in general was horribly out of position a lot, including yourself (and yes, "defending a tower" with nobody else around except, if I remember right, your Night Stalker is basically being out of position that late in the game), and that led to AoE CC blasting the hell out of you because the enemy team had an actually good composition.
that is typically true for all supports. But a spirit breaker with 1 kill and 2 assists, with his only items being vlads and treads, and another melee also has vlads... I feel safe saying I'm pretty sure you weren't the reason your team lost. There isn't any excuse for having less than 100 gpm.
I see many Kotl players fall into a trap tho. Just because you 'can' nuke a creep wave doesn't mean that you should. You often end up robbing farm from a carry.
Very hard to keep him relevant into late game, most of the time come late game and people have bkb plus some sort of initation, he ends up being a liability. He's a horrible problem early though, as good ones can hide the Q chargeup and take a giant dump on the enemy laners.
I'm going to have to go ahead and sort of disagree with you there bob. She's got mean early cc, if you're not using that to secure first blood, or conquer your lane early, you're wasting her skills. It all depends on lane matchups and picks though, if you've got Tiny or some other low mana pool, big combo heroes on your team, probably better to get that aura up early.
I just finished watching the replay. Based on the team comp including the lanes and the item builds, I wouldn't care much about being blamed for the loss. You did fine.
But if CM was laning with PL, and had a Zeus mid, with WR offlane and Enigma in the jungle, then for sure her aura would be the first thing I'd max.
Also, people can buy clarity potions for 50 gold. CC costs at least 3k.
Lina doesn't have nearly as much control as CM does, and her CC is much harder to land
Shadow Shaman doesn't do as much burst as CM does, and is not as good a support - he works best getting levels quickly so he can push down towers with his ult.
Not many supports have a CC nuke + slow nuke like CM does. And really, who is spamming their spells so much that an aura is helpful but isn't picking up a bottle?
I think all those supports are pretty different in what they do. You can go aura or you can push offensive early damage with her. Both are viable, but I like to think setting up an early kill in your lane, especially if you have good carry with you, is important with her; at least in pub games where you can't really count on your other lanes to succeed in their roles.
It's a pretty big boon for heroes with low mana pools and big spells early game. Which is why if I had a CK , or Tiny on my team and I was CM, I would prioritize the aura. Sand King too.
I'm dead serious."
My solution was to just abandon the lane and scrounge up all the other farm available on the map, not really sure I could have done more about it.
e: Supports are liabilities late game because early on you are the alpha male and should act like one.
How is she anymore of a "liability" than any other support come late game? I'd rather have a cm in my lane than a veno, ss or lina. I'd love to see her get some buffs, mainly increase her god awful move speed and attack animation, and do SOMETHING with her aura, as it's pretty basic at the moment. But she's far from a "liability"
I'm dead serious."
She's got very, very low strength gain compared to other supports. She has middling range. She has nothing that goes through BKB. Her aura is pretty terrible after laning phase. Her ultimate can be good, but is very difficult to use effectively (lol 400 mana). Her counterpush is terrible. Her AA harass is meh. Her movespeed is abysmal. She has no escapes. The damage on her abilities is low.
Those are all relative to other supports.
She's got one of the strongest early stuns in the game on top of a very competitive slow. That's about it.
Compare her strength and gains to Bane, SD, Ogre, Disruptor, Shaker, Omni, Vengeful. Most others are about the same as her.
The range on her abilities always seemed pretty low to me. She does have a nice AA range, iirc, but it's low damage and a huge wind up.
Fiend's Grip, Demonic Purge, Serpent Wards, Nether Swap, and Fissure all are effective through BKB. Wisp's ult is also there, but I don't think it really counts.
I disagree on the aura.
She seems a lot better since the that last big patch, though the changes looked pretty minor. I don't think she comes close to providing the versatility of some other support types heroes, but she has her place, and I sure seem to see her in a lot of games...
Can you walk through the wall of dirt if you have BKB on? I'm honestly not sure.
so her strength gain is lower than some. you said she has "very very low strength gain compared to other supports". her str gain is higher than Lina, Veno, Shadow Shaman, Lich, Rubick, Leshrac, Enchantress, and more.
So on 2 counts, you flat out lied. What about this game is so important to you that you feel the need to make up bullshit to convince other people that a hero is bad?
As for abilities that go through BKB, many supports have nothing. Jakiro, Lina, Lich, & Leshrac have nothing that goes through BKB. I wouldn't count Serpent Wards and I think Nether Swap is questionable given that who ever has it on is probably right in the middle of your team chewing shit up.
playdota has the aoe listed correctly (i.e: 400 aoe => 200 radius)
Lich's ult interrupts through BKB :P. At least I'm 95% sure it still does. First hit only.
Also talking about gain alone without talking about base strength is pretty silly.
of course, if you really did open a dota 2 practice game, you could have simply checked the in game spell description that CLEARLY states that it has a RADIUS of 400. you could also use the range display, set it at 900, and see if you can hit anything outside it with Nova (omg you can)
Also, holy shit at the new buy back music.
It does not always make the sound though.
I really liked the old buyback music; I hope it's just some extra variety.
also, the silencer color scheme is nice.seems a lot darker then then the picture