i love radiance carries, rushing radiance is the most fun
and timbersaw is pretty much the fuckin jam. zip zap zoopin all over the place.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
edited December 2012
Shredder is amazing fun to play. I had so much fun yanking myself around the map last night, buzzsawing people if I caught them. He can put out an obscene amount of damage if you line the combo up right. I killed a Luna from full to dead in one Timberchain -> Whirling Death -> Chakram combo. I have no idea what a "normal" build is, but I was just doing what I saw Merlini do last night which was arcane boots -> perseverance -> bloodstone, eventually building boots of travel in there somewhere.
This guys is definitely going in my rotation of favorites. Most of the 'new' heroes released recently I've found kind of meh, but I am really enjoying this one.
As an added touch, his VO is really good, and I like his model. The way he raises his armored shell as reactive armor procs is class.
Hmm. So I'm playing a Dragon Knight game last night and I'm top with a not very good pudge, up against a lone bounty hunter, and the enemy team has a jungle enchant, while we have none. (We've basically already lost the game) I can't stop Bounty's farm because he levels up quick against us 2, and pudge keeps pushing the lane, so I concentrate on pure farming. Meanwhile bottom lane feeds tiny something like 6+ kills within a 10 minute stretch.
So what do you do at that point as a late game carry? No towers are down, but bot lane and mid are basically lost. I voted to keep farming since the enemy team abandoned my lane to roam gank. I got yelled at for not helping the other lanes.
It also cracks me up when I give someone some advice and they berate me, calling me a noob idiot, and then I look at their win rate, it's 200+ games less than mine.
Dark_Side on
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
edited December 2012
Just sounds like a bad game. If you had your HoD and boots by 15 minutes, were stacking ancients with a controlled creep, and were close to your BKB and Satanic by 30, you did everything you were supposed to do.
DK is a ricer, he has to farm a lot. If your team doesn't get that, they are just bad and all you can do is shrug and move on. Whenever I see a teammate pick a DK, I always pick a mid-game gank monster to help. If I can take over the mid game with a Nightstalker or a BH and nail down the enemy team while my DK stack farms, he can bust out with his Satanic and just kill everyone.
I looked, not very hard, and didn't see this posted yet. Spoilered for size.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
When this game goes in to full release, it's going to blow up.
While I was showering last night, I was thinking someone really needs to put together a comprehensive, non-offensive, Dota 2 for LoL players guide around the time of release.
Mayhaps I will start working on this, since I played both games quite a bit. There is so much I wish I had known when I switched over, so much I wish someone had told me.
Honestly I don't really think a DOTA to LoL guide is needed in any way except to point out useful similarities and significant changes. Its just a general 'here's a MOBA, here's what you should do' kinda guide that's more helpful.
Learning League was hard for me
Learning DOTA2 afterwards was fine, because I got the mentality, studied who I wanted to play and threw myself at the learning cliff that games like this have with the understanding that I'd break it.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
I disagree. There is a ton of nuance in Dota that doesn't exist in LoL. There were a lot of things I had to learn the hard way, where I just wanted to fallback on my LoL experience. I could have saved myself a month or two of terrible games if someone had explained to me the nuance from both perspectives.
Things like needing TP scrolls because there is no built in base teleport, or how summoner spells translate almost 1:1 to items once you know the item actives...or hell, for that matter, how important item active effects are in Dota.
Yeah, just a differences guide would be helpful, I just don't feel the League community is actually that viable for transition.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
We'll see. I think we'll see a lot of League players switch when the time comes. I can't imagine not switching at this point, as someone who actually did it. Maybe that colors my bias a bit.
I'm terrible with remembering to use item actives. I can handle one or two, but when you get into the supports that run 4-5 items all with active skills, it's rare that I remember to use more than 2 in a teamfight.
I'm kind of shocked that AP, which I never play, is such a high percentage of games. Also holy crap this game is big in europe.
I play both games, and among my circle of friends who are mostly league players it's being about
30% play both
10% switched fully
60% can't be fucked to learn another MOBA.
So I suspect you'll see about that, plus I'm not sure there will be that big an increase at release, considering pretty much anyone in the beta can give you beta keys now. I've not seen a single person whose interested in getting it who doesn't have it already.
Though I suspect when it comes to new players who want to learn MOBA's DOTA2 will be the more popular choice due to not having to unlock characters.
Oh on the lol to dota thing. Most my friends say "...yeah I really like it, but it's way more difficult and I've already invested so much time in lol". I think if I can get a bunch of them to play at the same time it'd be different. But, mostly it's me walking them through the ropes in a custom game, followed by a bot game, followed by them going back to lol. The ones I can actually get to play a few bot games haven't even gone back to lol though.
having active effects on every item is not that uncommon in dota
esp. if you consider stuff like tread switching
Shameful pursuits and utterly stupid opinions
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
I've gotten all my LoL friends to change. It took some cajoling and calling them horrible names, and telling them they were playing the Babbies First ARTS, but they finally did.
I've gotten all my LoL friends to change. It took some cajoling and calling them horrible names, and telling them they were playing the Babbies First ARTS, but they finally did.
I feel like it's a kind of "there can only be one" situation. I don't think LoL will suddenly die off, but I'm guessing either Dota2 or LoL will keep most of the moba playerbase to the one game.
Dota 2 has a lot going for it that LoL doesn't though. Polish, tf2 style itemization, all heroes available up front. The only negative for me is that LoL probably has a more modern, streamlined take on the genre. But their champ design and Riot as a company, continually turn me off.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
The cleave + stack meta is getting a work over in 6.77 anyway, according to IceFrog. Probably with a leash shortening, so camps can't stack more than a couple of times.
Mmm, I think the result will be with League as the mainstream game over DOTA2.
I like both but I always come back to this comparison of COD vs Counter Strike:
Counter Strike was there first, it was a dodgy mod that made it big and part of the oddities of it are down to how the programmers worked around the engine. This means you'll end up with a complex game but it always has this kind of magical allure to it in it's awkwardness and odd little quirks.
COD is mass produced, done well and easier to understand than counterstrike. It's easier to just play a game without worrying, chances are your friends play it and everyone kinda knows what it's about.
I think the same style of thing applies to League VS DOTA.
DOTA is quirky as fuck, weird, wonderful but at times utterly bizzare and annoying in the amount of stuff you have to learn or will learn.
League is easy to get into and play but lacks the quirkiness of DOTA (champion design is worse, this I just agree with, I have some league champs I like, but DOTA on the whole is better).
Which to my mind implies League will always do better in the mainstream.
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
Dota 2 is a lot more pretty than League and has better casters, which I think will really help.
+1
GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
I think the fact that Dota 2 has zero money outlay required to participate at 100%, and that you don't need to gain stupid levels, or buy points to get "runes" or any of that crap, is going to be a HUGE selling point.
Maybe not for the folks who've already dropped 100 bucks in to LoL, but for the guy that maybe owns two or three champs, and mostly just plays the free rotation? Yeah.
It will be interesting to watch for sure. Especially if Riot finally eats the time cost and rebuilds the UI outside of adobe air. The graphics could probably use a make over too, compared to Dota 2, it's a pretty striking difference.
Edit: Although, in League...you do get a free flash, which I use to love but now I much prefer it being part of an item and with a timer on damage.
Dark_Side on
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
In League, nearly everything we purchase items for is mapped to a Summoner Spell:
Off the top of my head:
Flash = Blink Dagger
Heal = Mekanism
Exhaust = Orchid + Rod of Atos
Ghost = Phase Boots
Revive = Buy back, kind of
Surge = Armlet
Teleport + Base = TP scrolls / Boots of Travel
Flash is both required for league to work right now and completely fucking annoying early game where it's a get out of jail free card.
I think the champion thing is true, I don't neccassarily agree with runes/masteries. As much as I dislike runes personally (masteries are cool IMHO) I know alot of people enjoy the feeling of progress (which DOTA2 has hats for).
I mean the dumbest quote I've ever seen was 'I prefer league because it doesn't give me the champions for free and I can learn and earn the new characters' which I don't agree with but proves that the attitude of unlocks>competitive with 0 hours is a thing that exists even in a genre that arguably is pretty based on the idea of no unlocks between games.
However, here's a question I always like hearing the answers too. If you could port 3 heroes from each game into the other, which 3 would you pick?
For me it'd be:
DOTA to League:
Windrunner, she'd be interesting as a support/carry is something traditionally not viable in Leagues meta
Tidehunter, he'd work out as a jungler, which would make him interesting as an alternative to amumu
Mirana, just because even though most of her mechanics are in league already (Nidalee for arrow/leap Soraka for starfall, no AOE stealth though) she pretty much fits perfectly into what would make a good carry for league, and more competitive picks are always cool, even if Riot would never let the ulti exist.
League to DOTA:
Teemo, so you can suffer with us
Elise, complex, interesting, strong ganker/roaming potential
Master Yi, so someone can have a reason to play the poor sod
PS: Baby's first ARTS isn't League, it's Awesomenauts, and DOTA WISHES it had half the class Awesomenauts did (or Super Monday Night Combat, admitedy, that's hardly baby's first anything).
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3cl1ps3I will build a labyrinth to house the cheeseRegistered Userregular
The buy in is gonna be a huuuuuge swell of Dota 2 players, I think. No more only playing the free heroes that you may or may not like or dropping $5 just to unlock a new hero!
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
edited December 2012
Hmm, from Dota 2 to LoL...I'm not sure, but I know which LoL heroes I would port over: Udyr (who has no real equivalent in Dota), Lee Sin and Volibear (who is nothing like Syllabear, despite the name).
e: Mirana would be a weird carry in LoL...would she be AD or AP? Hmmm.
Those are 3 pretty good picks, and honestly I think Lee is like the invoker of league where the sheer amount of stuff you can do with a good player makes him pretty broken.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
Funny that I play a lot of Invoker in Dota, much like I played a lot of Lee Sin in LoL. I would say Invoker is quite a bit more complex though. Lee Sin has a lot of actions, but they mostly combo together, and the states that trigger them are relatively easily remembered.
Oh definitely, but to me they both have this fundamental problem that they have too much they can do on one kit.
Inokers still hard to play compared to Lee, but they're the same in how their complexity is what gives them their strength.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
edited December 2012
Certainly. It's what I love about them both, that I can fill multiple roles, sometimes in the same game. Sure, I may go Ques/Wex Invoker, but nothing is stopping me mid game from dumping some points in to Exort and landing more Sunstrikes or Meat Balls.
Yeah, sometimes I think of it as an issue that makes them too strong, and sometimes it's cool, I struggle to make my mind up.
And Mirana would be an AD carry, Arrow scale on AD, leap on AD, have AP and AD scaling on star fall like MF. More interesting is what would they do for her ultimate?
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
edited December 2012
Since stealth is still a heaping pile of shit in LoL? I have no idea.
e: Stealth in LoL is not bad because stealth, it's bad because sight is too easy to get, and then too easy to keep. Their "Gem of True Sight" is called Oracles, and the other team doesn't pick it up when you die...there's little to no risk to your support to just walk around all game with Oracles up, dewarding and finding stealthers.
Season 3 nerfed Oracles BTW: It's now identical to oracles extract in Dominion, lasts five minutes or until death for 400G. Which means you can only use it either on a tanky support Jungler like Maokai who doesn't need the gold, or only for clearing wards out of key objectives when you want to take baron Nashor(roshaN)
Stealth is gimped in league because Morrello believes stealth is a shitty mechanic for ARTS. I'm inclined to agree every time I shut Riki the fuck down in lane and he still gets fed, every fucking time.
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GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
edited December 2012
Well that's good to hear about Oracles. It used to persist death and only cost like 250g, it was stupid.
I disagree on stealth. While it's certainly annoying at times, it adds a layer of complexity I appreciate in my gaming. The tools are there to stop any stealther, it's just another level of play people have to learn. In many cases, a stealther against a competent team is a hindrance (barring Bounty Hunter). Since many of the stealth characters in the game are balanced against that stealth, once you know how to counter it, it hurts them a lot (Riki is one of these).
Plus, without stealth, we wouldn't have Smoke of Deceit, and Smoke is one of the best items in Dota. It can be a game turner if you're behind, or it can help you seal a complete victory if you're ahead. I love Smoke.
Yeah, Oracles is pretty trash atm but vision is still cheap as fuck so... yeah, ganking is hard unless the opposition is retarded.
I think my issue with stealth is that I can shut it down, I know how to shut it down and if I do it's binary, the stealth doesn't work therefore the guy is fucked. But because:
1) I can't trust my team to do it
2) It's binary
I find it dull and fustrating. I feel an ARTS where there could be varying levels of detection that gave say a dodge chance or damage reduction to the partially revealed would be better. As it stands it's either 'lol we have a sight stone get the fuck out' or 'fucking Riki too fed'.
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and timbersaw is pretty much the fuckin jam. zip zap zoopin all over the place.
This guys is definitely going in my rotation of favorites. Most of the 'new' heroes released recently I've found kind of meh, but I am really enjoying this one.
As an added touch, his VO is really good, and I like his model. The way he raises his armored shell as reactive armor procs is class.
So what do you do at that point as a late game carry? No towers are down, but bot lane and mid are basically lost. I voted to keep farming since the enemy team abandoned my lane to roam gank. I got yelled at for not helping the other lanes.
It also cracks me up when I give someone some advice and they berate me, calling me a noob idiot, and then I look at their win rate, it's 200+ games less than mine.
DK is a ricer, he has to farm a lot. If your team doesn't get that, they are just bad and all you can do is shrug and move on. Whenever I see a teammate pick a DK, I always pick a mid-game gank monster to help. If I can take over the mid game with a Nightstalker or a BH and nail down the enemy team while my DK stack farms, he can bust out with his Satanic and just kill everyone.
While I was showering last night, I was thinking someone really needs to put together a comprehensive, non-offensive, Dota 2 for LoL players guide around the time of release.
Mayhaps I will start working on this, since I played both games quite a bit. There is so much I wish I had known when I switched over, so much I wish someone had told me.
Learning League was hard for me
Learning DOTA2 afterwards was fine, because I got the mentality, studied who I wanted to play and threw myself at the learning cliff that games like this have with the understanding that I'd break it.
Things like needing TP scrolls because there is no built in base teleport, or how summoner spells translate almost 1:1 to items once you know the item actives...or hell, for that matter, how important item active effects are in Dota.
I'm kind of shocked that AP, which I never play, is such a high percentage of games. Also holy crap this game is big in europe.
30% play both
10% switched fully
60% can't be fucked to learn another MOBA.
So I suspect you'll see about that, plus I'm not sure there will be that big an increase at release, considering pretty much anyone in the beta can give you beta keys now. I've not seen a single person whose interested in getting it who doesn't have it already.
Though I suspect when it comes to new players who want to learn MOBA's DOTA2 will be the more popular choice due to not having to unlock characters.
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Oh on the lol to dota thing. Most my friends say "...yeah I really like it, but it's way more difficult and I've already invested so much time in lol". I think if I can get a bunch of them to play at the same time it'd be different. But, mostly it's me walking them through the ropes in a custom game, followed by a bot game, followed by them going back to lol. The ones I can actually get to play a few bot games haven't even gone back to lol though.
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esp. if you consider stuff like tread switching
I feel like it's a kind of "there can only be one" situation. I don't think LoL will suddenly die off, but I'm guessing either Dota2 or LoL will keep most of the moba playerbase to the one game.
Dota 2 has a lot going for it that LoL doesn't though. Polish, tf2 style itemization, all heroes available up front. The only negative for me is that LoL probably has a more modern, streamlined take on the genre. But their champ design and Riot as a company, continually turn me off.
I like both but I always come back to this comparison of COD vs Counter Strike:
Counter Strike was there first, it was a dodgy mod that made it big and part of the oddities of it are down to how the programmers worked around the engine. This means you'll end up with a complex game but it always has this kind of magical allure to it in it's awkwardness and odd little quirks.
COD is mass produced, done well and easier to understand than counterstrike. It's easier to just play a game without worrying, chances are your friends play it and everyone kinda knows what it's about.
I think the same style of thing applies to League VS DOTA.
DOTA is quirky as fuck, weird, wonderful but at times utterly bizzare and annoying in the amount of stuff you have to learn or will learn.
League is easy to get into and play but lacks the quirkiness of DOTA (champion design is worse, this I just agree with, I have some league champs I like, but DOTA on the whole is better).
Which to my mind implies League will always do better in the mainstream.
Maybe not for the folks who've already dropped 100 bucks in to LoL, but for the guy that maybe owns two or three champs, and mostly just plays the free rotation? Yeah.
Edit: Although, in League...you do get a free flash, which I use to love but now I much prefer it being part of an item and with a timer on damage.
Off the top of my head:
Flash = Blink Dagger
Heal = Mekanism
Exhaust = Orchid + Rod of Atos
Ghost = Phase Boots
Revive = Buy back, kind of
Surge = Armlet
Teleport + Base = TP scrolls / Boots of Travel
I think the champion thing is true, I don't neccassarily agree with runes/masteries. As much as I dislike runes personally (masteries are cool IMHO) I know alot of people enjoy the feeling of progress (which DOTA2 has hats for).
I mean the dumbest quote I've ever seen was 'I prefer league because it doesn't give me the champions for free and I can learn and earn the new characters' which I don't agree with but proves that the attitude of unlocks>competitive with 0 hours is a thing that exists even in a genre that arguably is pretty based on the idea of no unlocks between games.
However, here's a question I always like hearing the answers too. If you could port 3 heroes from each game into the other, which 3 would you pick?
For me it'd be:
DOTA to League:
Windrunner, she'd be interesting as a support/carry is something traditionally not viable in Leagues meta
Tidehunter, he'd work out as a jungler, which would make him interesting as an alternative to amumu
Mirana, just because even though most of her mechanics are in league already (Nidalee for arrow/leap Soraka for starfall, no AOE stealth though) she pretty much fits perfectly into what would make a good carry for league, and more competitive picks are always cool, even if Riot would never let the ulti exist.
League to DOTA:
Teemo, so you can suffer with us
Elise, complex, interesting, strong ganker/roaming potential
Master Yi, so someone can have a reason to play the poor sod
PS: Baby's first ARTS isn't League, it's Awesomenauts, and DOTA WISHES it had half the class Awesomenauts did (or Super Monday Night Combat, admitedy, that's hardly baby's first anything).
e: Mirana would be a weird carry in LoL...would she be AD or AP? Hmmm.
Inokers still hard to play compared to Lee, but they're the same in how their complexity is what gives them their strength.
And Mirana would be an AD carry, Arrow scale on AD, leap on AD, have AP and AD scaling on star fall like MF. More interesting is what would they do for her ultimate?
e: Stealth in LoL is not bad because stealth, it's bad because sight is too easy to get, and then too easy to keep. Their "Gem of True Sight" is called Oracles, and the other team doesn't pick it up when you die...there's little to no risk to your support to just walk around all game with Oracles up, dewarding and finding stealthers.
Babbies first RTS indeed O_O
Stealth is gimped in league because Morrello believes stealth is a shitty mechanic for ARTS. I'm inclined to agree every time I shut Riki the fuck down in lane and he still gets fed, every fucking time.
I disagree on stealth. While it's certainly annoying at times, it adds a layer of complexity I appreciate in my gaming. The tools are there to stop any stealther, it's just another level of play people have to learn. In many cases, a stealther against a competent team is a hindrance (barring Bounty Hunter). Since many of the stealth characters in the game are balanced against that stealth, once you know how to counter it, it hurts them a lot (Riki is one of these).
Plus, without stealth, we wouldn't have Smoke of Deceit, and Smoke is one of the best items in Dota. It can be a game turner if you're behind, or it can help you seal a complete victory if you're ahead. I love Smoke.
I think my issue with stealth is that I can shut it down, I know how to shut it down and if I do it's binary, the stealth doesn't work therefore the guy is fucked. But because:
1) I can't trust my team to do it
2) It's binary
I find it dull and fustrating. I feel an ARTS where there could be varying levels of detection that gave say a dodge chance or damage reduction to the partially revealed would be better. As it stands it's either 'lol we have a sight stone get the fuck out' or 'fucking Riki too fed'.