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Marvel NOW! - The Future is NOW! Page One NS56k

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Posts

  • King RiptorKing Riptor Registered User regular
    Killustrated sounds hilarious which is odd given its spun off from deadpool kills the marvel universe which was decidedly unfunny

    I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    Turambar wrote: »
    Aaaand now I have to watch these


    Dude, have you seen this one? It's crazy spooky.

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Blankzilla wrote: »
    See, I dunno

    IT IS ALL JUST A VIRTUAL REALITY is such a cliche-ass cop out at this point that I think a writer as talented and creative as Hopeless wouldn't go for it.

    Arcade getting crazy powers somehow seems far more likely to me

    I reckon it's the Beyonder

  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    Yeah that would be both awesome and a pretty nice nod to Marvel history

    CYpGAPn.png
  • AutomaticzenAutomaticzen Registered User regular
    Blankzilla wrote: »
    Nope

    But Blank....


    Actually I don't really get this instant hate everybody else has for it.

    If you read and enjoyed Avengers Academy, the first issue of Avengers Arena is essentially a big 'screw you', seeing as the couple involved factored heavily into the last few issues of that title.

    There certainly may be more to the rest of the tale, but it's like kicking off a new Justice League with the death of Superman.
    Blankzilla wrote: »
    See, I dunno

    IT IS ALL JUST A VIRTUAL REALITY is such a cliche-ass cop out at this point that I think a writer as talented and creative as Hopeless wouldn't go for it.

    Arcade getting crazy powers somehow seems far more likely to me

    The problem is even with the deep exploration of the characters, the series mostly seems to exist to A) kill off characters and B) find out what's behind Arcade. Some have issue with that first part, regardless of how good the execution is.

    The death in this issue not only doesn't add anything to the character,
    but action directly prior actively go against some of his previous characterization. Mettle gave up being normal in AA to help his friends. He had issues killing a Nazi in Fear Itself. So a character who was left in an enjoyable spot with a possible future is gone, for ostensibly no reason.

    Sorry, there is a reason. To show Arcade is a threat. Just seems like a waste of decent characters. I prefer my comic deaths as the culmination of something, rather than the side effect. Different strokes.

    http://www.usgamer.net/
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    I write about video games and stuff. It is fun. Sometimes.
  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    The series doesn't exist just to kill characters

    The series exists to put those characters in a strange environment and tell interesting stories with them

    this isn't like Winnick's (or was it McKeever?) Titans East where the issue ended with the entire team seemingly being murdered over the course of a page just to show how badass the villain is. Arcade, if it even is him, seems to have a lot more going on, and the kids themselves put up a fight and are certainly going to stop him at some point. And, personally, I would much rather have characters I like(like Reptil, Darkhawk, Chase and Cammi) be written well in an interesting where they might die versus not being touched at all.
    As someone who lightly followed AA I thought the entire issue was great. Yes, I get how Mettle dying sucks, but it is supposed to. If a character dies and you don't care at all, then it is poor storytelling. His sacrifice felt completely genuine and really goddamn heroic. He couldn't have gone out like a champ more.

    and again, this is just the first issue. Hopeless has said that the story is a slow burn, showing alliances form and dissolve, new characters being introduced and characters having to survive in the wilds of Murderworld.

    Proclaiming the whole thing pointless or a "waste of characters" when the whole Hunger Games-esque stuff hasn't even started yet is jumping the gun.

    I understand not everyone will like the book, and that is fine. I don't like comics that other people love! I just feel that Arena is getting a whole bunch of unwarranted hate due to a poor marketing plan.

    A lot of the complaints seem to be that not everything is being revealed and explained in the first issue, which is a silly criticism. Hickman's first issue of Avengers didn't explain anything about where The Garden came from or how Cap ended up recruiting Hyperion, Smasher and Captain Universe, but people aren't complaining about that.

    BlankZoe on
    CYpGAPn.png
  • AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    well yeah

    Hickman's a genius

  • AutomaticzenAutomaticzen Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Blankzilla wrote: »
    The series doesn't exist just to kill characters

    The series exists to put those characters in a strange environment and tell interesting stories with them

    this isn't like Winnick's (or was it McKeever?) Titans East where the issue ended with the entire team seemingly being murdered over the course of a page just to show how badass the villain is. Arcade, if it even is him, seems to have a lot more going on, and the kids themselves put up a fight and are certainly going to stop him at some point. And, personally, I would much rather have characters I like(like Reptil, Darkhawk, Chase and Cammi) be written well in an interesting where they might die versus not being touched at all.
    As someone who lightly followed AA I thought the entire issue was great. Yes, I get how Mettle dying sucks, but it is supposed to. If a character dies and you don't care at all, then it is poor storytelling. His sacrifice felt completely genuine and really goddamn heroic. He couldn't have gone out like a champ more.

    and again, this is just the first issue. Hopeless has said that the story is a slow burn, showing alliances form and dissolve, new characters being introduced and characters having to survive in the wilds of Murderworld.

    Proclaiming the whole thing pointless or a "waste of characters" when the whole Hunger Games-esque stuff hasn't even started yet is jumping the gun.

    I understand not everyone will like the book, and that is fine. I don't like comics that other people love! I just feel that Arena is getting a whole bunch of unwarranted hate due to a poor marketing plan.

    A lot of the complaints seem to be that not everything is being revealed and explained in the first issue, which is a silly criticism. Hickman's first issue of Avengers didn't explain anything about where The Garden came from or how Cap ended up recruiting Hyperion, Smasher and Captain Universe, but people aren't complaining about that.

    I'll admit, that was the first example I thought of and it was actually a part of my post but I figured no one would remember that annual.

    On the spoiler, I was actually referring to
    his commentary with Hazmat prior. The Mettle established before would not be perfectly fine with everyone else dying. Seemed off.

    I lean away from death in comics, for reasons mentioned by Morrison:
    “Yes,” he said. “But like I say, it’s so much better than death. People have killed characters in the past but to me, that kind of ends the story! I like to keep the story twisting and turning. So what I am doing is a fate worse than death. Things that no one would expect to happen to these guys at all.”

    On the latter part of your post, it's because Hickman has given us a reason to trust him via Secret Warriors and FF. He now has this mythology about him as a meticulous plotter. Hopeless I've only read on X-Men Season One. You seem to have much more faith in the man.

    Currently, we're tracking closer to Battle Royale - as opposed to Hunger Games or Lord of the Flies - with Arcade standing in for Kitano. With ########## being the character killed by Kitano to show the cast things are serious.

    Honestly, with a completely new cast, I'd probably be on board with this book.

    Automaticzen on
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    I write about video games and stuff. It is fun. Sometimes.
  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    Well we will just have to disagree then, as I think death is a perfectly acceptable tool as long as it is handled well and lines up with previous characterizations.

    CYpGAPn.png
  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    Also Superior Spider-Man seems to have ditched that weird logo with the crumbling letters


    all of the in-book ads for it have the same font as Avenging Spider-man with much more arial bold-y SUPERIOR up top
    AvengingSpiderMan_Logo.jpg

    which is way better cause I love that logo

    CYpGAPn.png
    Turambar
  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    I'd just rather not read about a bunch of teenage superheroes being brutalized, month-in, month-out.

    Even Battle Royale and Hunger Games aren't that emotionally exhausting. Those are new franchises, with characters whose arcs are set up, and resolved, within the course of said franchises. And they're over comparatively quickly. You can get through the movies in a couple hours, or the books in an afternoon.

    Avengers Arena is the ongoing tale of kids being killed, to satiate the whims of a sadistic, God-like supervillain. And it's not like the story's even playing fair with him as the antagonist; the first issue (from what I gathered flipping through it) shows that the kids are helpless to resist, and that Arcade's not even really adhering to any kinds of rules.

    "Hey, who's the weak link here? You? Alright, BLAM welcome to Murder World!"

    Seriously, if DC released Justice League: Rape Island, the monthly tale of superheroes forced to rape to stay alive, and the writer was all, "Well, the rapes are really just a tool I'm using to tell this dramatic, character-driven story," we'd all think someone at DC was being sort of an asshole, or possibly suffering from dementia.

    That's what Avengers Arena is, to me. Just a tasteless concept that, even if well-executed, is less worthy of my time and money than a couple dozen other books.

    And the thing is, I think there are ways the idea could have been pulled off. The whole idea of superheroic tribes of teenagers on an island, is very appealing to me. But, the game-of-death aspect, is just tiresome. It's been done. I'd rather see politics, the building of structured societies, defending the civilizations from within and without, etc.

    And Avengers Arena may very well be that, but every now and then some capricious, red-headed imp is just going to stroll through, kick over the sand castles, and say, "Nyaaahhh, you can't touch me!"

    No thanks.

    And yeah, I agree with Automaticzen, too. Drop all the pre-existing characters, and stick with brand new ones, and I'd have an easier time tolerating it. It'd make Hopeless earn his dramatic moments, by building up the characters before knocking them down. And it'd take the reader's focus away from the shock of seeing Molly of the Runaways get eviscerated by Katie Power, and direct it to the drama of the situation that the characters are in.

    AntimatterGatsbyCururu
  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    To be fair, like half of the cast are original characters.

    Kid Briton
    Nara
    Apex
    Anarchronism
    Bloodstone
    Ryker
    Red Raven

    all new characters

    CYpGAPn.png
  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    Wasn't Red Raven Man-of-Bats' sidekick?

  • AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    one of my favorite books ever, last stand of the wreckers, is about good people dying in stupid, pointless ways

    there's ways to do it

    avengers arena does not seem to be it

    TexiKen
  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    And I can understand not wanting to read Avengers Arena because it is going to be dark and kinda rough every month.

    For another example, the current Walking Dead video game is an astounding piece of software. Tells a fantastic story with great characters and some super heavy choices. But it is also a gut punch every single episode and makes me want to nap forever. And I am friends with a few people who won't play it for various, legitimate, reasons.

    So if you don't really want to read a story like that, I get it.

    But I am not reading Arena to get my rocks off on teenagers murdering eachother soaked and blood OH YEAH HOW BADASS

    I am reading it because Hopeless has proven he can write teenagers very well and I like the cast and I think the pitch is inventive.

    I'm not gonna try and get every single person ever to read and like Avengers Arena, I just think a lot of the hate is unwarranted or silly. Like the whole HOW DOES ARCADE SUDDENLY HAVE POWERS WHAT IS THIS BULLSHIT stuff that would have been considered totally fine in any other book.

    BlankZoe on
    CYpGAPn.png
  • HadjiQuestHadjiQuest Registered User regular
    I read Avengers Arcade and really dug it, but also felt dirty at the end.

    I'd like to keep my eye on this one, but given that arcade sets a timelimit, and the book begins with a flashforward from right before time is up, I'll probably let this thing run for a year or two and then jump it in trade once it's over.

    I'll still get my dose of this Hopeless dude from Cable & X-Force, which I haven't read yet but looks damn awesome.

  • ButtlordButtlord Fornicus Lord of Bondage and PainRegistered User regular
    Blankzilla wrote: »
    I think the pitch is inventive.

    how is it remotely inventive

  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    Buttlord wrote: »
    Blankzilla wrote: »
    I think the pitch is inventive.

    how is it remotely inventive
    It is inventive for superhero comics.

    Show me another story where heroes are forced to survive in a wilderness and form tribes amongst themselves.

    The only one I can remotely think of is George RR Martin's original pitch for Salvation Run.

    CYpGAPn.png
  • ButtlordButtlord Fornicus Lord of Bondage and PainRegistered User regular
    hunger games but with superpowers isn't really that inventive

    it's a new story, but it's not inventive

  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    Alright, then, inventive was a poor word?

    i still think it is a rad pitch that hasn't been done before in superhero comics?

    CYpGAPn.png
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    As someone who loved Avengers Academy this issue broke my heart.

    But it also hooked me

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • AutomaticzenAutomaticzen Registered User regular
    HadjiQuest wrote: »
    I read Avengers Arcade and really dug it, but also felt dirty at the end.

    I'd like to keep my eye on this one, but given that arcade sets a timelimit, and the book begins with a flashforward from right before time is up, I'll probably let this thing run for a year or two and then jump it in trade once it's over.

    I'll still get my dose of this Hopeless dude from Cable & X-Force, which I haven't read yet but looks damn awesome.

    It's pretty good. It succeeds where Thunderbolts failed. It answers the "Why are these people together?" question, while leaving some more for later.

    http://www.usgamer.net/
    http://www.gamesindustry.biz/
    I write about video games and stuff. It is fun. Sometimes.
  • KingofMadCowsKingofMadCows Registered User regular
    I think that they might be subtly setting certain things up in Avengers Arena.
    Arcade's expression was neutral when he killed Mettle, rather unusual for a guy who's supposed to enjoy that kind of thing.

    Arcade admitted that he couldn't make the kids do anything even though he said earlier that he had complete control over their motor skills.

    Hazmat is blasted a large distance but doesn't suffer any debilitating wounds. She doesn't possess super human endurance so even if she was cushioned by the snow, she should have been hurt pretty badly.

    Also, the robot hovering in the middle of the kids after they were brought there looked like it was inspired by the machines in the Matrix. It also disappeared after Arcade arrived.

    Balefuego
  • GatsbyGatsby Registered User regular
    Munch wrote: »
    Munch wrote: »
    I'd just rather not read about a bunch of teenage superheroes being brutalized, month-in, month-out.

    Even Battle Royale and Hunger Games aren't that emotionally exhausting. Those are new franchises, with characters whose arcs are set up, and resolved, within the course of said franchises. And they're over comparatively quickly. You can get through the movies in a couple hours, or the books in an afternoon.

    Avengers Arena is the ongoing tale of kids being killed, to satiate the whims of a sadistic, God-like supervillain. And it's not like the story's even playing fair with him as the antagonist; the first issue (from what I gathered flipping through it) shows that the kids are helpless to resist, and that Arcade's not even really adhering to any kinds of rules.

    "Hey, who's the weak link here? You? Alright, BLAM welcome to Murder World!"

    Seriously, if DC released Justice League: Rape Island, the monthly tale of superheroes forced to rape to stay alive, and the writer was all, "Well, the rapes are really just a tool I'm using to tell this dramatic, character-driven story," we'd all think someone at DC was being sort of an asshole, or possibly suffering from dementia.

    That's what Avengers Arena is, to me. Just a tasteless concept that, even if well-executed, is less worthy of my time and money than a couple dozen other books.

    And the thing is, I think there are ways the idea could have been pulled off. The whole idea of superheroic tribes of teenagers on an island, is very appealing to me. But, the game-of-death aspect, is just tiresome. It's been done. I'd rather see politics, the building of structured societies, defending the civilizations from within and without, etc.

    And Avengers Arena may very well be that, but every now and then some capricious, red-headed imp is just going to stroll through, kick over the sand castles, and say, "Nyaaahhh, you can't touch me!"

    No thanks.

    And yeah, I agree with Automaticzen, too. Drop all the pre-existing characters, and stick with brand new ones, and I'd have an easier time tolerating it. It'd make Hopeless earn his dramatic moments, by building up the characters before knocking them down. And it'd take the reader's focus away from the shock of seeing Molly of the Runaways get eviscerated by Katie Power, and direct it to the drama of the situation that the characters are in.

    Coming from the perspective of a new reader, someone who never got involved with comic books much in their youth and has been playing catch-up ever since, the entire concept of arena bums me out and the execution has done nothing to change that opinion.

    A lot of these new and recent characters sound interesting and cool and relatable in some cases, but knowing that a lot of them if not all are going to die doesn't register well with me. If you want to tell fascinating stories with characters that haven't been in the spotlight as much, in intriguing settings, this being chosen and followed through with comes off as a sour note.

  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    I think people are being way too hard on Avengers Arena. Let me try to articulate why I actually do think it's fair to call it an inventive idea.

    There's a reason why we all look down on death in comic books. We all know that it always amounts to nothing more than a cheap gimmick as the characters we watch die are, in fact, huge brands that drive a lot of money. This, in turn, means that these deaths will never stick - never. Creators know this too and in recent years have gotten more "clever" with their deaths - typically hinging the gravitas of the death or the spectacle of putting the hero through some sort of terrible experience in which we, as the reader, accompany them. So we have to see things like Sue Dibny raped and burned or Captain America die on the steps of the Justice building in order for the "death" to have any impact. Then it ultimately amounts to nothing when the character inevitably comes back. It's essentially meaningless as a story telling device but we still need to bare the impact of stories in which these things take place. I think that leaves us feeling somewhat abused as readers.

    I think Avengers Arena is different. Hopeless has essentially set up a microcosm of the Marvel Universe in which we can hopefully (no pun intended) start to explore all of the aspects of characterization in these types of books. People keep fixating on the death aspect of the book and I think they're selling themselves short. The book isn't about death. The book is about what happens when you lock these characters into a world that sits outside of the rules of the broader Marvel Universe. Because the "death card" is really on the table it adds more meaning (or at least a different perspective) to all of the things we really enjoy about these books - relationships, betrayals, character development, etc.

    Anyway, that's my long-winded two cents. I could go on, but I think that gets my point across.

    FearghaillBalefuegohorseman85
  • Man of the WavesMan of the Waves Registered User regular
    Avengers Arena has great writing and great art. Get the book and enjoy the ride.

    Balefuego
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    I don't think we only look down on death because it doesn't stick. There are plenty of permanent deaths in comics that rubbed me the wrong way, and since they all dealt with minor characters they're more analogous to this book than the death of Xavier or whomever. The D-List generally doesn't come back.

    And, having looked at the book myself to satisfy my curiosity, I do have to say that the writing just wasn't up to par for me. Arcade just did the generic "I'm a joke villain BUT THIS TIME I"M SERIOUS" thing, Mettle displayed zero personality (he has no nerve endings, so his personal life with Hazmat is supposed to be more physically difficult than shown), and Hazmat's inner monologue just didn't demonstrate the intensity and turmoil that you'd expect for a scenario like this. I don't care how shell-shocked you are, if one of your classmates is trying to kill you and
    your boyfriend was just killed
    , you're not going to be dwelling upon how you used to be a "hater."

    That was just my impression based on a glance, though. Maybe there were subtleties to the stories that I missed, such as those leading people to believe that the villain is actually the Beyonder or something crazy like that.

    Robos A Go Go on
    Antimatter
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    Actually by the end of Avengers Academy, Mettle could "feel" with his metal skin, it was just "different"

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    And I would also say, having read the issue that it seems pretty clear that both Arcade and his new Murderworld seem intentionally off.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    And I would also say, having read the issue that it seems pretty clear that both Arcade and his new Murderworld seem intentionally off.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Balefuego wrote: »
    Actually by the end of Avengers Academy, Mettle could "feel" with his metal skin, it was just "different"

    Even then, the comic made it sound like Hazmat was the one with issues and Mettle had no issues of his own that previously precluded an intimate relationship.

    He's just sort of there to fill a generic boyfriend role.

    Robos A Go Go on
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    I don't know, I mean I am bummed that he is gone too, but that bedroom scene is pretty much a direct continuation of that last time we saw them in the Accademy final issue.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    Alright, well to be fair I stopped reading Academy by then.

  • AutomaticzenAutomaticzen Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    There's a reason why we all look down on death in comic books. We all know that it always amounts to nothing more than a cheap gimmick as the characters we watch die are, in fact, huge brands that drive a lot of money. This, in turn, means that these deaths will never stick - never. Creators know this too and in recent years have gotten more "clever" with their deaths - typically hinging the gravitas of the death or the spectacle of putting the hero through some sort of terrible experience in which we, as the reader, accompany them. So we have to see things like Sue Dibny raped and burned or Captain America die on the steps of the Justice building in order for the "death" to have any impact. Then it ultimately amounts to nothing when the character inevitably comes back. It's essentially meaningless as a story telling device but we still need to bare the impact of stories in which these things take place. I think that leaves us feeling somewhat abused as readers.

    I think Avengers Arena is different. Hopeless has essentially set up a microcosm of the Marvel Universe in which we can hopefully (no pun intended) start to explore all of the aspects of characterization in these types of books. People keep fixating on the death aspect of the book and I think they're selling themselves short. The book isn't about death. The book is about what happens when you lock these characters into a world that sits outside of the rules of the broader Marvel Universe. Because the "death card" is really on the table it adds more meaning (or at least a different perspective) to all of the things we really enjoy about these books - relationships, betrayals, character development, etc.

    Which is a good exploration into the premise, but the reason death has meaning now isn't because they're cut off, it's because these guys are the C-List. Relatively new or with smaller fanbases. This doesn't really change the overall perception of death in comics because we know if Wolverine dies, he'll be back in some form eventually. Or Colussus, Kitty Pryde, Angel, Nightcrawler, etc, etc, etc.

    This is no different when they put a bunch of New Mutants on an exploding bus. We knew those guys weren't coming back. Or when Superboy Prime killed a shit-ton of Titans.

    When Goliath bit it in Civil War, you knew it was going to stick because he's C-List. Maybe there were more stories to tell with the character? Who knows. Whereas the Wasp dying in Secret Invasion or Hawkeye in Disassembled? You were counting the downtime until their return.

    Death has no meaning because we know where the line is. And those who are angry at Avengers Arena are most likely angry because - without some random get out of jail free card - their favorite Runaway or Avengers Academy character could go next, with no hope of return. All that possibility and promise snuffed out.

    Avengers Arena is (seemingly) where hope goes to die. At a time of revitalization and looking towards the future, the Marvel Universe is killing off its youngest.

    And in the recent words of Mark Waid:
    The grimness is just absurd. It’s “how do we out-grim each other, how do we out-violence each other”. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not offended because I want comics to be like they were when I was a kid. I don’t care. I don’t want comics to be like they were when I was a kid because I still have my comics. If I need that I’ll go look at those. What I need is for comics to not cheapen out and just do what they think a bunch of bloodthirsty 15 year old fans want. Stop trying to gross us out with blood and violence. It’s just cheap. It’s bad storytelling. I’m not offended on a moral or ethical level, I’m just offended on a creativity level. There are other ways to create tension and drama than to have somebody stabbed through the back with a sword.

    But alas, much said about little. Marvel Now is mostly positive for me, so far.

    Automaticzen on
    http://www.usgamer.net/
    http://www.gamesindustry.biz/
    I write about video games and stuff. It is fun. Sometimes.
    Antimatter
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    I don't think we only look down on death because it doesn't stick. There are plenty of permanent deaths in comics that rubbed me the wrong way, and since they all dealt with minor characters they're more analogous to this book than the death of Xavier or whomever. The D-List generally doesn't come back.

    And, having looked at the book myself to satisfy my curiosity, I do have to say that the writing just wasn't up to par for me. Arcade just did the generic "I'm a joke villain BUT THIS TIME I"M SERIOUS" thing, Mettle displayed zero personality (he has no nerve endings, so his personal life with Hazmat is supposed to be more physically difficult than shown), and Hazmat's inner monologue just didn't demonstrate the intensity and turmoil that you'd expect for a scenario like this. I don't care how shell-shocked you are, if one of your classmates is trying to kill you and
    your boyfriend was just killed
    , you're not going to be dwelling upon how you used to be a "hater."

    That was just my impression based on a glance, though. Maybe there were subtleties to the stories that I missed, such as those leading people to believe that the villain is actually the Beyonder or something crazy like that.

    I wasn't trying to say that the only reason we look down on death in comics is because it doesn't stick. I was trying to (poorly) articulate that it's just a symptom of the underlying issue that death is something we can't really take seriously in the medium when, it should be one of the key driving motivations behind almost every character. We don't worry about Batman when he runs into battle because we, and his fictional family, know he'll be ok. If you take away "plot armor" for these people they become more exposed as characters. When you take that a step further and have an entire cast exposed like that it creates a setting for some really interesting story telling.

    Once again, it's not about death. It's about what happens when you quarantine off a section of the universe and introduce death as a reality and start to let characters grow in that universe. Other books have done similar things but it's usually in the setting of a grimdark "reality" (think Kick-Ass). Avengers Academy is interesting because it's still a part of the Marvel U and, as such, still sports that same fantastical element that drives us to read comics.

  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    @Automaticzen I think what you're saying is skirting my point a little bit. Having a mix of new characters and c-listers is actually a benefit to the book. I don't think Hopeless is going out to change the perception of death in comics. That would be an impossible task. What he's doing is writing a story where we can view death in a certain way. We have the broader Marvel U where normal rules apply and then we have AA.

    Balefuego
  • AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    Then why is he using dudes from the broader marvel u?

  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    If you want a story where the normal rules of death don't apply, there's no shortage of stories with C-List characters, original creations, and alternate universe hijinks where dudes die left and right.

    Thematically speaking, there's nothing new here except for the exact details of the story, which in any case still closely mirror the premise of Beyond. The only difference is, in that book, the heroes and villains realize pretty early on that they're better off teaming up than fighting amongst themselves. In Arena, it'll probably take several issues before that happens.

    Robos A Go Go on
    Antimatter
  • AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    edited December 2012
    I'm just gonna put a snippet of a conversation from last stand of the wreckers here okay
    "It was never gonna be Perceptor, was it? Or Springer or Impactor or Kup, if they were here. No, it was always going to be one of us—the second-stringers."
    "Yeah, just because we're not famous—not Ark-worthy—one of us has to bite the bullet.."
    The premise of the book is, basically, to put a bunch of c/z-list dudes who either have never been used before ever in any sense or used only briefly 20 years ago, in a scenario where they're likely gonna die, and for the reader to care about them just as much as the a-list guys going along for the ride, enough so that they'd be willing for the a-list guys to die to save the newbies

    The writers are generally considered to have succeeded

    There are ways to lock up dudes and put them in a bad way and maybe even kill them, I agree with that

    It's best executed with dudes who aren't still being developed or with fan favorites though

    AA could've been better told with only the new cast members and not killing anyone off until the second or third issue

    Especially if this is targeted towards new readers, they really aren't gonna care if someone dies in the first ish and they barely know about them at all

    Antimatter on
  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    I think it all comes down to your level of investment; for me, seeing Blue Beetle catch a bullet with his face sucked, because I like that character, and I think there were more stories to be told.

    For others, he's a C-list nobody who'd had a good run, and getting killed was the coolest thing he'd ever done.

    Also, remember that time I pitched an Arcade/Terror mini-series?
    The first would be for a Marvel MAX book. It would star Terror, the undead private investigator who gains the abilities and memories of any appendage or organ that he attaches to his body. The book would open with Terror being hired by a concerned parent, tasked to track down a missing Initiative superteen. It seems like an easy enough job, until Terror busts up a seedy supervillain bar and learns who has her; the ginger genius of genocide, Arcade. Apparently, a wealthy sadist with a penchant for snuff films has hired Arcade to put on the ultimate show, with superhero teens starring in the macabre production. With time running out, Terror must locate the mysterious Murderworld, where Arcade's rumored to be holding the teen heroes.

    The story would regularly shift from the perspectives of Terror, Arcade and his employer, and those heroes trapped in Muderworld. It would naturally be a very dark story, with a little levity courtesy of the warped perspectives of life and death offered by Arcade and Terror. One part 8MM, one part Saw, it would be a real guilty pleasure kind of horror comic, where the appeal is seeing horrible things happen to people. The final payoff in the story would see Terror storming Murderworld, picking up pieces of decapitated superkids and using their abilities to battle his way through Murderworld, to Arcade's control room to confront the diminunitive death-dealer and his sadistic audience of one.

    Munch of 2008, you were sort of a dumbass, huh?

    Sure was, Munch of 2012.

    Antimatter
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