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Marvel NOW! - The Future is NOW! Page One NS56k

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  • AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    In your defense that was pitched as marvel max and not 616

  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    True enough.

    I do think it's interesting that there's a parallel to the thinking that produced Avengers Arena, though. Take the idea behind a popular movie/genre, throw some superheroes in it, add a twist of some kind, and profit.

    Still.

    eugh

    AntimatterCururu
  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Munch wrote: »
    I think it all comes down to your level of investment; for me, seeing Blue Beetle catch a bullet with his face sucked, because I like that character, and I think there were more stories to be told.

    For others, he's a C-list nobody who'd had a good run, and getting killed was the coolest thing he'd ever done.

    Related: I noticed recently that Countdown to Infinite Crisis was free on Comixology recently and I thought I'd read it because I hadn't actually read it before.

    Holy crap that was an idiotic story. Millions of dollars are being stolen from Ted Kord and nobody cares for some reason? Booster Gold is put in the hospital and everyone's still like, "Oh Ted, you and your craaazy ideas!"

    Centipede Damascus on
    Ringo
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    I think Munch is kinda getting what I'm saying but nobody else really is - which is likely my own fault.

    The death thing hardly matters. In fact, if death was taken out of the equation how would you feel about the premise of the series? Avengers Academy is over. Runaways is done. Etc.

    I would rather have a story told with these characters than have them languish in obscurity for 5-10 years. This is an interesting concept to boot.

    Maybe our favourite characters are going to die. Maybe they aren't. We really don't know. All we know is that it's certainly a possibility. The first issue had enough going for it that I'm personally really looking forward to the rest of the series. Hopeless is a good writer. I have faith that he's going to do this right.

  • AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    i'd rather wait for a good story rather than have the characters never have another story again due to dying

  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    I'm going to go out on a limb and say I don't think that was the last we will see of the character that dies in issue 1

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    there's always flashbacks :rotate:

    TexiKen
  • SatanIsMyMotorSatanIsMyMotor Fuck Warren Ellis Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    What about a good story where the characters may also die? Because that's likely what you're going to get here.

    I'm sorry but just being dismissive of the whole thing because you know characters are going to die seems woefully ignorant to me.

    Edit: I just realized that there's a whole discussion on this going on in the bitching thread. I'll shut up about this in here.

    SatanIsMyMotor on
  • AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    i don't think it's a good story! i don't think it's well written from what i've seen! i know that Hopeless can write well based on Cable & X-Force, so i'm not going to be dismissive of the man's entire body of work!

  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    Also I know that you hate the Academy characters Anti so no one you care about is dead yet!

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    edited December 2012
    i don't hate the academy characters

    i dislike Hazmat and wasn't impressed by Academy's writing

    but i've never been particularly attached to any of the characters, but i believe that given the right story maybe i'd like them

    AA isnt that right story

    and i do feel sorry for academy fans who have to deal with this nonsense

    Antimatter on
  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    It pretty much comes down to some people are okay with the story, and others aren't.

    It isn't like I am suddenly going to get Anti to go OH MY GOD YOU'RE RIGHT, THIS IS ALL FANTASTIC!

    People got different opinions and that is fine. Personally, I feel death is an okay thing to do in comics. Being in a shared universe doesn't mean that writers can never do anything bad to characters because some other writer might have a story for them down the line.

    The only thing I have been arguing against is the innaccurate/unfair criticisms, as opposed to people not digging the plot.

    People are throwing petty complaints that other books get away with just fine or still treating it like it is just a murderfest with no actual story going on behind it, which Hopless addresses himself in the letters page:
    A lot of people question why AA is an ongoing series and not a mini. Here's why: For this book to succeed, we have to earn the concept. We have to make you love the characters even if you've never read a page of their previous series. We need you to care how it all turns out and feel each and every death. In order to get there, we need space. Luckily, Marvel has given it to us.

    I promise this won't be an all-action fight book or worse, a meat grinder. It's a character-driven story. Every fight and death will be in service of that story. That's what we're shooting for, anyways.

    CYpGAPn.png
  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    Also Anti you should read X-Men: Season One!

    It is a really fun take on the original 5 X-Men with killer McKelvie art and great character work by Hopeless

    CYpGAPn.png
    Mattitude
  • AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    you're right, i should

    hoping my library gets a copy

  • AutomaticzenAutomaticzen Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    I think Munch is kinda getting what I'm saying but nobody else really is - which is likely my own fault.

    The death thing hardly matters. In fact, if death was taken out of the equation how would you feel about the premise of the series? Avengers Academy is over. Runaways is done. Etc.

    I would rather have a story told with these characters than have them languish in obscurity for 5-10 years. This is an interesting concept to boot.

    Maybe our favourite characters are going to die. Maybe they aren't. We really don't know. All we know is that it's certainly a possibility. The first issue had enough going for it that I'm personally really looking forward to the rest of the series. Hopeless is a good writer. I have faith that he's going to do this right.

    Paul Jenkins is doing the same concept with all-new characters here. Deathmatch.
    http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=41157
    1348265178.jpg

    I enjoyed Battle Royale, Lord of the Flies, Hunger Games, Infinite Ryvius. It's a fun premise.

    The problem is death in the Big Two should be permanent. It's not because if you throw away a character there's no guarantee that X writer years down the line might not have a great idea for that character. A character-defining run. So then they have to spend Y amount of issue on why this character is alive again. In the case of someone like Hal Jordan, two crossovers and a series. Whereas the fix for getting Gardner back? "Oh hey, here's a ring." Same endpoint, with much larger hoops to jump through in one case.

    I prefer something like Patriot outright quitting to Stature's death in the same mini. I enjoyed the end of Uncanny X-Force, but a small part of me wonder if there wasn't more that could be done with
    Daken
    .

    And in this case, this isn't even D-Man. These are fresh characters, some of whom people have been waiting for another series, others who just came from a series with small fanbase. Characters with promise. And for Avengers Arena to really, really work - like Blankzilla has brought up - they have to die. For the series to really matter, most of those characters must die. That's the payoff to the series I listed above. The small group of survivors looking back and going, "what have we done?" and pondering humanity.

    As Munch said, it all depends on your affection for the characters. If you don't care about them, then it's probably a great story. But the death in the first issue was on of the driving focuses of a series that just ended. Those past stories aren't invalided, but any future there is just gone.

    Avengers Arena might be a great story, but to really be worthwhile, it has to be the death of tons of possibility.

    It's down to how you feel about death in the Big Two.




    Automaticzen on
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    http://www.gamesindustry.biz/
    I write about video games and stuff. It is fun. Sometimes.
  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    Again, I think an actual story is better than a possible future story that could never even happen.

    I get the sentiment of not wanting these characters to possibly die, but saying "X can't die because maybe a writer will have an awesome story with them 6 years from now!" is kind of a shitty excuse and roadblocks writers.


    CYpGAPn.png
    Vann DirasWeedLordVegeta
  • AutomaticzenAutomaticzen Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Blankzilla wrote: »
    Again, I think an actual story is better than a possible future story that could never even happen.

    I get the sentiment of not wanting these characters to possibly die, but saying "X can't die because maybe a writer will have an awesome story with them 6 years from now!" is kind of a shitty excuse and roadblocks writers.

    I'd rather it not go that far, but if you're going to do it, do it hard. Let it be the culmination of something grand. These are stories of heroism. These should be heroic, powerful deaths. The writer should ask themselves, "am I willing to cut off all these future stories?" That should weigh on them.

    Xavier's death in AvX is not an example of doing it hard.

    Death is currently too cheap. Too easy. I want to shock people, so X is going to die.

    You trust Hopeless to do otherwise, but the first issue gave me the opposite impression. X-Men Season One was good, but not anything that convinced me he deserved more trust.


    Automaticzen on
    http://www.usgamer.net/
    http://www.gamesindustry.biz/
    I write about video games and stuff. It is fun. Sometimes.
    AntimatterTexiKen
  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    You know, given how much of a revolving door death is in comics, I'm surprised Captain Marvel hasn't been brought back, especially given how Marvel needs to keep the name in use to prevent DC from taking it back.

  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    See, I think that the death was powerful as hell.
    The entire issue is framed around Hazmat being kind of a jerk about everything and the only time she isn't is when she is with Mettle, who clearly loves the hell out of her.

    So Mettle without any hesitation sacrificing his life to save hers is really goddamn heroic.

    Doubly so since during Arcade's little monologue about everyone's true personalities the line "There might even be one real hero" is put over Mettle heading to go get Jen out of the snow.

    Just because the dude didn't save the world didn't mean he didn't die a hero. He saved the girl he loves, that's like the basic definition of herosim.

    CYpGAPn.png
    Elderlycrawfish
  • AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    You know, given how much of a revolving door death is in comics, I'm surprised Captain Marvel hasn't been brought back, especially given how Marvel needs to keep the name in use to prevent DC from taking it back.

    he comes back a lot

    and then goes away a lot

    Crimsondude
  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    You know, given how much of a revolving door death is in comics, I'm surprised Captain Marvel hasn't been brought back, especially given how Marvel needs to keep the name in use to prevent DC from taking it back.
    Well I mean Carol is using it now

    and there was Skrull Mar-Vell

    CYpGAPn.png
  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    I mean the original "died of cancer" model.

  • vagrant_windsvagrant_winds Overworked Mysterious Eldritch Horror Hunter XX Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    You know, given how much of a revolving door death is in comics, I'm surprised Captain Marvel hasn't been brought back, especially given how Marvel needs to keep the name in use to prevent DC from taking it back.

    DC finally gave up and calls the character Shazam now.

    His backup issues are also anazing and way better than the main comic he's in.

    vagrant_winds on
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  • ElderlycrawfishElderlycrawfish Registered User regular
    Dammit, Blank, you covered everything I had just pecked out on my phone keypad for the past couple minutes, and much more coherently to boot.

    I definitely agree with all of that, yeah.

    PSN/Steam - Elderlycrawfish
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    Antimatter wrote: »
    i don't hate the academy characters

    i dislike Hazmat and wasn't impressed by Academy's writing

    but i've never been particularly attached to any of the characters, but i believe that given the right story maybe i'd like them

    AA isnt that right story

    and i do feel sorry for academy fans who have to deal with this nonsense

    B-but

    I'm an academy fan

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    i feel sorry for you

  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    well it probably wont surprise you if I say Hazmat was far and away my favorite character from that book

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • AntimatterAntimatter Devo Was Right Gates of SteelRegistered User regular
    nope

    you've mentioned it before and even if i hadnt remembered that it wouldnt surprise me at all

  • TexiKenTexiKen DOOG Registered User regular
    I wonder if you made a mandate that for one year, there would be no deaths in Marvel comics, see if the writers could actually work with that.

  • ElderlycrawfishElderlycrawfish Registered User regular
    TexiKen wrote: »
    I wonder if you made a mandate that for one year, there would be no deaths in Marvel comics, see if the writers could actually work with that.

    Shocking increase in coma cases.

    PSN/Steam - Elderlycrawfish
  • BalefuegoBalefuego Registered User regular
    Blankzilla wrote: »
    You know, given how much of a revolving door death is in comics, I'm surprised Captain Marvel hasn't been brought back, especially given how Marvel needs to keep the name in use to prevent DC from taking it back.
    Well I mean Carol is using it now

    and there was Skrull Mar-Vell

    and more recently the Mar-Vell from the Cancerverse in Thanos Imperative

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • TurambarTurambar Avocado at law Registered User regular
    There was also the Phoenix thing in Secret Avengers

    Steam: turamb | Origin: Turamb | 3DS: 3411-1109-4537 | NNID: Turambar
  • FearghaillFearghaill HIGH ON THE WIRE BUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered User regular
    Blankzilla wrote: »
    Again, I think an actual story is better than a possible future story that could never even happen.

    I get the sentiment of not wanting these characters to possibly die, but saying "X can't die because maybe a writer will have an awesome story with them 6 years from now!" is kind of a shitty excuse and roadblocks writers.

    I'd rather it not go that far, but if you're going to do it, do it hard. Let it be the culmination of something grand. These are stories of heroism. These should be heroic, powerful deaths. The writer should ask themselves, "am I willing to cut off all these future stories?" That should weigh on them.

    Xavier's death in AvX is not an example of doing it hard.

    Death is currently too cheap. Too easy. I want to shock people, so X is going to die.

    You trust Hopeless to do otherwise, but the first issue gave me the opposite impression. X-Men Season One was good, but not anything that convinced me he deserved more trust.

    All of this? This is why I fucking loved Journey Into Mystery, bittersweet as it was. Kieron had all of this in mind and then some when he wrote it

    warning: massive ending & entire run spoilers
    http://kierongillen.tumblr.com/post/34522875244/one-for-sorrow-why-did-kieron-do-it

  • DJ EebsDJ Eebs Moderator, Administrator admin
    Death is never going to be permanent at Marvel or DC. That's part of what happens when you have a never ending universe that hundreds of people get to build and work in. Someone, somewhere, is going to want to use a dead character that they loved. Or change a character's powers, or change their relationships, or change their villains. Sometimes they have a story that necessitates a character's death. Is it unfortunate that some characters can die and people will just go "well who cares, they'll be back in like a year or two anyways?" Yeah, a bit. But in that year or two before they come back, there are plenty of stories told that deal with that death as real, and those stories don't suddenly lose any meaning because that character comes back to life, or is replaced with a clone, or was never dead in the first place. That doesn't mean the moment can't work.

    I don't know how Avengers Arena will turn out. I thought the first issue was pretty solid, and I'm intrigued to see where it goes from here. I can't judge it based on its premise, because many of my favorite things have INCREDIBLY STUPID premises. And I can't say the deaths will likely have no meaning, because there hasn't been any time to follow up on the consequences yet. And as for the characters that may die, or may survive...I dunno. It would suck to see your favorite character go out. I'll be very sad and/or upset if either Chase or Nico die, because I loved Runaways.

    But...I don't know. Death in DC or Marvel is a tricky thing. And I think the arguments get muddled up. Because on the one hand, you want deaths to have meaning. And on the other, you don't want characters to die because you don't want to cut off any possible future story with that character. And that doesn't just apply to deaths. People don't want someone other than Peter Parker to be Spider-Man. People want Superman and Lois Lane to be together. And in the end, if you're a writer at Marvel or DC, I think you have to tell the story you want to tell. If you're like Kieron Gillen you can find a way to keep your characters to yourself, through trickery or by thinking outside the box. If you're someone like Bendis, you throw a character in jail and let the next guy work out how to get him out. And you can't concern yourself with what some other guy might do to the characters you created or worked on five years after you've finished writing that character.

    I feel like I've kind of strayed from whatever point I was making, but I think the main thing is: you have to judge the story that's being told, and not the story that might be told in the future. And wishing that death in comics would be meaningful and permanent is a nice wish, but I'm not sure it would actually be all that great, or possible.

    BlankZoeBalefuegoSolar
  • DJ EebsDJ Eebs Moderator, Administrator admin
    note that that doesn't mean you can't say something is shitty or bad because you don't like what it's doing

    WeedLordVegeta
  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    It bugs the heck out of me when people dismiss superhero comics on account of things like retcons and resurrections.

  • vagrant_windsvagrant_winds Overworked Mysterious Eldritch Horror Hunter XX Registered User regular
    I dismissed them for a while for writer changes and big events ruining characters and/or stories that I enjoyed and getting bitter about it.

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  • TyrantCowTyrantCow Registered User regular
    i picked up AA just to check it out, not knowing anything about the character's past exploits or any hype around the series.

    it seems like a solid enough start. hazmat seems to be the focus, and the events at the end of the book give her some (albeit a bit cliche; but this is an avengers story) motivation to follow through the rest of the story.

    taking it a face value, as the beginning of a story (regardless of the repercussions in the rest of the universe) to be told, i have absolutely no issues with anything that happened.

  • BlankZoeBlankZoe Registered User regular
    She actually isn't the focus, the PoV will jump around a bunch and even star Arcade sometimes.

    CYpGAPn.png
  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus Registered User regular
    The first Hawkguy trade is now available for preorder, if you haven't been buying it already

This discussion has been closed.