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The 4th (Almost) Annual Phalla Awards! - Congratulations to all our winners!

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    Erin The RedErin The Red The Name's Erin! Woman, Podcaster, Dungeon Master, IT nerd, Parent, Trans. AMA Baton Rouge, LARegistered User regular
    Rend wrote: »
    Also, as much as I hate to say it, Conversions are a hard counter to Soft Networking in today's "metagame".

    Conversions are also one of the least fun things. You spend 5 days working toward a victory condition only to have all your effort turned against you? Infuriating!

    One game I was converted THE DAY BEFORE THE GAME ENDED. My original faction won. I was so frustrated

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    enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Rend wrote: »
    Also, as much as I hate to say it, Conversions are a hard counter to Soft Networking in today's "metagame".

    Conversions are also one of the least fun things. You spend 5 days working toward a victory condition only to have all your effort turned against you? Infuriating!

    Make them all voluntary. Granted, that mostly means some of us will get reputations as backstabby.

    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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    Sir FabulousSir Fabulous Malevolent Squid God Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Rend wrote: »
    Also, as much as I hate to say it, Conversions are a hard counter to Soft Networking in today's "metagame".

    Conversions are also one of the least fun things. You spend 5 days working toward a victory condition only to have all your effort turned against you? Infuriating!

    I cannot agree enough with this. I think Conversions should be used extremely sparingly. There have to be some games with them in, otherwise people will forget about them.

    Personally I think that Hosts should not tell the village when there aren't Thralls, Millers or Conversions. I have found that saying "CD" to those questions is actually a sly way for the Host to say "Yes."

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    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Conversions are generally bad.

    One exception is the Day One conversion, or the tiered conversion that is planned on day one, or a faction game.

    The biggest issue is that it basically invalidates a seering, and while Seers could use being weaker, making any sort of networking impossible is generally a bad idea. You want networking to have a risk/reward, you don't want people to avoid networking at all for fear that their ally will sometime later betray them.

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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    Sir FabulousSir Fabulous Malevolent Squid God Registered User regular
    Rend wrote: »
    Also, as much as I hate to say it, Conversions are a hard counter to Soft Networking in today's "metagame".

    Conversions are also one of the least fun things. You spend 5 days working toward a victory condition only to have all your effort turned against you? Infuriating!

    Make them all voluntary. Granted, that mostly means some of us will get reputations as backstabby.

    The only problem with this is that Voluntary Conversions suck. They really suck. Because people will almost always decline unless their faction is clearly losing.

    I think that Conversions have to remain a constant threat. Sure, most games won't have them, but when they do, you get a Stever777 Monster Phalla, where the Mafia swept to victory after making a deal with a conversion Neutral.

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    FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    Voluntary conversions are a shitty mechanic at best.

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    RendRend Registered User regular
    My favorite type of conversion is the type where you don't lose your original win condition. Like the neutral cult leader who gains followers that win with him if he ever converts the majority of the population, but also win without him if he dies and their original faction wins.

    Or conversions of roles who are specifically neutral until converted, made-for-conversion roles, if you will.

    Or converting people to the sweet release of death. The most wonderful conversion.

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    Erin The RedErin The Red The Name's Erin! Woman, Podcaster, Dungeon Master, IT nerd, Parent, Trans. AMA Baton Rouge, LARegistered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Rend wrote: »
    My favorite type of conversion is the type where you don't lose your original win condition. Like the neutral cult leader who gains followers that win with him if he ever converts the majority of the population, but also win without him if he dies and their original faction wins.

    Or conversions of roles who are specifically neutral until converted, made-for-conversion roles, if you will.

    Or converting people to the sweet release of death. The most wonderful conversion.
    That's called "Fiaryning" them
    Something something came into this world screaming
    Something something go out the same way

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    SaberOverEasySaberOverEasy Info Broker Registered User regular
    Rend wrote: »
    Also, as much as I hate to say it, Conversions are a hard counter to Soft Networking in today's "metagame".

    Conversions are also one of the least fun things. You spend 5 days working toward a victory condition only to have all your effort turned against you? Infuriating!

    I cannot agree enough with this. I think Conversions should be used extremely sparingly. There have to be some games with them in, otherwise people will forget about them.

    Personally I think that Hosts should not tell the village when there aren't Thralls, Millers or Conversions. I have found that saying "CD" to those questions is actually a sly way for the Host to say "Yes."

    I am constantly surprised that we as hosts answer this question without blinking an eye. If someone asked "Busdriver/Roleblocker?" is there any way that wouldn't just get a CD?

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    38thDoe38thDoe lets never be stupid again wait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered User regular
    Interesting discussion in this thread.
    I think it would be good to have a resource for hosts on balancing these elements.

    Every ability you put it in can potentially be used to confirm someone, and that needs to be balanced somehow on the mafia side.
    Vigs can call their kills (Don't color kills-Also Helps SK)
    Seers seer (Don't overload the game with seers)
    Any power that you duplicate can be used to confirm to eachother. (Don't reuse powers)
    Having all village abilities be everyother day and the mafia not knowing this can be used to confirm people.
    Being masoned with someone is a power in itself, when you give them powers on top of that you are usually making it near impossible for mafia to win.
    Role blocking, busdriving, Narration injection etc. can be used to confirm.
    So... if you want to have a lot of powers in the game, that's going to put a lot of information out there that can be collected and used to find people who aren't doing what they say they should be. Especially in a battle game where people can live through attacks, etc. Given that in a traditional split the information gathering inclined people will 80% be village, that puts the mafia at a strong disadvantage.

    On the other hand, villagers without powers only have the vote... so if you give the mafia the ability to veto the vote, or vote manipulation, or redirection, you are basically taking these people out of the game completely.

    We've seen roles that have to softnetwork to meet their win condition, how long before we see a role that has to use softnetwork info destructively to win? Roles like that will change the meta. Like has been said before, there is no check on softnetworking in the current meta.

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    InfidelInfidel Heretic Registered User regular
    FYI, don't get upset or misinterpret the CANCER THAT IS KILLING PHALLA meme.

    That meme is sarcastic hyperbole and the point is mocking Dac Vin, an old player that if you are not familiar with then good.

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    Erin The RedErin The Red The Name's Erin! Woman, Podcaster, Dungeon Master, IT nerd, Parent, Trans. AMA Baton Rouge, LARegistered User regular
    I tried doing the no colored kills thing in my latest mini.
    Makes the narrations a lot easier to write, if you keep those vague-ish also! :D

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    SpoitSpoit *twitch twitch* Registered User regular
    Is soft networking a big issue? I mean, soft networking was the reason why Infidel won the Harbinger phalla.

    Serial Killers benefit the most from soft networking.

    I wouldn't say issue as much as tactic. With games where there's a large amount of information scattered in the village (Unknown Armies was a good example of this), soft networking is incredibly powerful, because it closes the information gap with the mafia quickly. It also exposes gaps in the mafia's knowledge.

    In games without a ton of information in the village (Blackout in Phallaville is the first one I can think of, but there's lots of others), soft networking simply doesn't do very much. You say hi, both say you're vanillagers, then look awkwardly at one another like a jr. high dance. Maybe you ask who they think is suspicious, but there's just not that much information to gain.

    Over the last month or so, I've had variations of this conversation several times. Soft networking is a direct result of games with unique or unknown roles/powers. On the other hand, people tend to like these sorts of games. Players like having powers and things to do, so hosts make games with powers and things for players to do. People complain about vanilla games being more boring, so hosts don't make/run them. Finding the right balance is tough.

    That being said, I think there's a few things that will help:

    1.) In any game with multiple common villager roles (like UA), the mafia needs to have the role PM's for each. They should be able to claim a role very easily and not have an information deficit.

    2.) Public softnetworking should help the mafia as well as the village. If the village is going to gather results publicly, the mafia should be able to gain an advantage from that.

    3.) Make it more difficult for villagers to become confirmed. I feel that the night 1 vig call has become expected. There should be more drawbacks to this sort of thing. Limited numbers of unblockable kills or warning players that kills will not be color-coded in narration are two options. I'm sure there are more.

    I'm sure there are lots of other ideas out there as well. One final suggestion: [REDACTED BY MANDALORIAN OVERSEERS]

    Yes. Exactly. You're so eloquent Sabre

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    I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    38thDoe wrote: »
    Being masoned with someone is a power in itself, when you give them powers on top of that you are usually making it near impossible for mafia to win.

    i think a lot of people severely underestimate the strength of reliable masons

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    KilnagaKilnaga Registered User regular
    Mason is one of the best powers for a villager to have in the early game, I think. The strength of the power seems to diminish as the game moves forward though. You start the game knowing quite a bit more than just about every other villager, and as the game moves forward, the other villagers with powers pick up more information through their power use, and the masons get nothing. Although, I suspect, that's why we see masons maneuver themselves into network head position when they can. Make some use out of the fact they are confirmed.

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    Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Phalla is a game all about information. The greatest asset that the mafia has is not their team vigilante power, it's that they know immediately who they are.

    The game is about UNINFORMED majority vs INFORMED minority.

    As such any game design must give greater information to the smaller groups. Mafia must know how the village specials works, but not the serial killer. Serial killer should know every mechanic and be allowed to ask almost any question in private.

    One of the chief complaints about my Arcadia game was that there were so many potential false flags that it became hard to tell what was earnest, actionable information. I think the number one mistake you can make as a host is that information is something that should casually disseminated. Information is critical. How much different do you think Harbinger would have played if I gave the village all the info about the specials? Which specials, even?

    The game went absolutely tits up in the Serial Killer's favor early on because the vig did not know how the guard mechanic worked and assumed he did, while the serial killer fully knew how the guard mechanic worked and laughed all the way to the bank.

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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    stever777stever777 AFK most Saturdays Registered User regular
    How can a guy who always plays a dirty neutral cop be best player? :P

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    EgosEgos Registered User regular
    Fiaryn wrote: »
    Voluntary conversions are a shitty mechanic at best.

    Unless the game isn't a phalla
    :Rotate:

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    HeavyVillainHeavyVillain Registered User regular
    Rend wrote: »
    My favorite type of conversion is the type where you don't lose your original win condition. Like the neutral cult leader who gains followers that win with him if he ever converts the majority of the population, but also win without him if he dies and their original faction wins.

    Or conversions of roles who are specifically neutral until converted, made-for-conversion roles, if you will.

    Or converting people to the sweet release of death. The most wonderful conversion.

    Time... Religion... and Death.

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    stever777stever777 AFK most Saturdays Registered User regular
    I knew my greatness wouldn't be recognized as a player or host.
    I'm an artist who hates approval.

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    Rawkking GoodguyRawkking Goodguy Registered User regular
    I love how the metagame has shifted to a point where we mostly agree that phalla needs more betrayal.

    Brings a tear to my eye.

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