So, I still haven't seen Ohmwrecker yet. So I was thinking, who wants to build this thing. The only champ I can think of I'd buy it on would be Singed, and only if I was willing to build it out of my catalyst instead of RoA. I suppose if you wanted the utility of easier tower dives you could do it, but the itemization just isn't good enough for most champs for 3k gold. I mean, the active would be awesome for those games where you're a bit ahead, but don't want to risk a tower dive. I saw on reddit it's only being built in 0.2% of games, so clearly I'm not the only one not seeing it.
I've considered it several times on supports if I find myself too fragile, or if I'm playing Nami. I don't like building AP on Nami, so if I'm taking a bunch of damage on her and I already have a couple other support items like mikaels and/or twin shadows or something, I've gone for (but not yet actually finished) ohmwrecker for the defensive ability.
0
KayWhat we need...Is a little bit of PANIC.Registered Userregular
So, I still haven't seen Ohmwrecker yet. So I was thinking, who wants to build this thing. The only champ I can think of I'd buy it on would be Singed, and only if I was willing to build it out of my catalyst instead of RoA. I suppose if you wanted the utility of easier tower dives you could do it, but the itemization just isn't good enough for most champs for 3k gold. I mean, the active would be awesome for those games where you're a bit ahead, but don't want to risk a tower dive. I saw on reddit it's only being built in 0.2% of games, so clearly I'm not the only one not seeing it.
I think they over estimated how good it would be and bumped its gold too high. I honestly think is they made it 2k people would buy it, but it seems like the active would just be too powerful early game. Not sure why they even put it in the game.
Miniwolf on
League Of Legends: Ulven
0
BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
Yeah, the problems with Ohmwrecker IMO are 1) It costs 3k, and there are other 3k items that are way better, and 2) The combo of stats just doesn't appeal to enough people. Health, Mana, armor, and the active. You could get a sunfire cape and skip the mana for 500 less gold for instance.
That's why I mentioned Singed, because I could see a full tank build Singed maybe getting it since he actually makes better use of the stats than probably anybody, but it's still hard to pass up on RoA on Singed.
Mouz just got out team comped too IMO. Jax and Diana are just better champions to have on your team than Shen/Cho'gath as a top/mid. I honestly don't like Cho mid that much just because while his ratios are good, and his CC and stuff are good, most teams would benefit more from either a utility AOE mage like Orianna, or a burst assassin.
Is there a live match going on right now? This stream does not appear to be working...
edit: vods seem fine
ugh, doesn't look like any live streaming is working for me. I just get the IEM logo and no sound or anything. Ads play with sound and stuff, but they're choppy as all get-out. sad crim is sad
RIP youmuu stack, you were a short-lived bundle of joy. Vi will have to beat the sadness out of me by beating the life out others as I vent my frustration over these stupid brut item changes.
Sorry, Talith, but the Brut change is a necessary response to putting % armour penetration first.
That extra 5 penetration is pretty huge when you're dropping people down to the 20s now.
Thinking that the flat penetration on brutalizer needs a nerf is an easy assumption to make when you think about the changed priority of the penetration system on paper, but then when you notice that armor penetration runes all got hit and the % penetration mastery was reduced you will see that you are actually doing less damage throughout the game compared to season 2 until you finally spend another 1663 gold on cleaver or 2135 gold on whisper (the superior selfish damage item), in which case the over-tuned % penetration goes to work.
Opening brutalizer first in S3 is weaker in all cases compared to S2, even with the different penetration order.
In season 3, a brutalizer with 15 armor penetration using 0 additional flat penetration from runes and masteries but using the % penetration from masteries provides you with less than 1 armor pen over season 2 with the same setup on targets with more than 30 armor, and breaks even at 75 armor. If you add any additional flat armor penetration from runes or masteries then the season 2 setup beats the pre-nerf season 3 setup against all targets.
With that aside, the main problem with cleaver and whisper, as stated by Xypherous, is their % penetration is too high - their values were tuned to preseason armor. Because both of their values are too high, their stacked case gets even sillier. If whisper was the only item in the game with % penetration it might be fine at 35% (although I think it should be 30%, void staff too), but because cleaver is also a % penetration item (that everyone on the team benefits from) and you gain defensive stats at the same time you negate defensive stats, their stacked case becomes abusive.
Because the % penetration is too high right now, it makes flat penetration once you acquire the % penetration too powerful. In all cases you are worse off than before until you complete either cleaver or whisper.
After the % penetration, I maintain that the most offensive stat on cleaver is the health and not the flat penetration. The idea of becoming more durable while negating durability is stupid. One of your best offensive items shouldn't simultaneously be a great defensive item. It's the reason the movement speed was gutted on phantom dancer and why zhonya's ring got split into hourglass and deathcap.
Instead of being an early game AD item or an itemization path that punishes lower amounts of armor at the cost of higher raw damage, brutalizer and its upgrades are this weird set of items you want only after you have percentage penetration (which one of the items give) and that is just terrible.
The game would be much better off removing the health from cleaver completely and replacing the ruby crystal with a pickaxe in the recipe, possibly even removing an additional 2.5 - 5% from the total shred but stacking faster; unless perhaps the champions with frree penetration and shreds on their kits get looked at.
This allows you to have an almost similar early game with brutalizer as before but allows for something interesting when deciding what your next item may be- when you purchase a pickaxe for additional damage you then have the option of considering whether you would like to upgrade to cleaver and be a team player or be more selfish with the pickaxe and purchase a last whisper instead. In this manner getting early flat penetration doesn't feel absolutely terrible until you get % penetration, and the combination of cleaver + whisper + flat penetration builds don't feel so ridiculous to deal with as a tank since tank levels of armor actually protect you against it now (the reduced total % penetration) and that champion appropriately dies when looked at because he has no health or resistances at all.
TLDR: % Pen too high, health on cleaver is bullshit. Flat pen nerfs were tackling the problem wrong.
Yeah, the problems with Ohmwrecker IMO are 1) It costs 3k, and there are other 3k items that are way better, and 2) The combo of stats just doesn't appeal to enough people. Health, Mana, armor, and the active. You could get a sunfire cape and skip the mana for 500 less gold for instance.
That's why I mentioned Singed, because I could see a full tank build Singed maybe getting it since he actually makes better use of the stats than probably anybody, but it's still hard to pass up on RoA on Singed.
I think the combo of stats is fine honestly, I think it's that the active is just redundant. You're building a ton of armor and health which already lets you dive towers as is. Furthermore, I think it takes way too damn long to build. It's hard to really rush in laning phase on any character since tanky tops are just banned (Malphite). So by the time you build it, the active feels "wasted" unless you're actually team fighting under a tower. Fighting at baron or dragon...not as great. Or if you're AT the tower but you're just poking it down and zoning them? Wasted.
They should put it on an early item that you could build in lane with damage. Maybe it would be interesting as like a Doran's Blade upgrade option to just let you really shit all over a lane you're winning. It won't help you as much later game since it still won't build into anything and then be really weak per slot, but if you're a top or bottom who's winning you could just use it to ruin their day. Although then it's probably too snowbally.
Does the flat armour penetration from Ghostblade stack with Black Cleaver's?
Because if it does I'm wondering whether AD users are going to want to have LW, BC and Ghostblade as their core build now.
Crit chance and the active on Youmuu's still aren't that great on AD casters IMO. BC/LW are obviously the best, but after that, BT, BotRK, Hexdrinker/Maw, and GA are all better items on AD casters IMO. There are a few bruisers that can make really good use of a Youmuu, like XZ, but I wouldn't expect Riven, Pantheon, and other AD casters to go for Youmuu. Too much wasted stats compared to what they get out of more raw AD from something like BT.
Speaking of Sejuani, she is a beast in this new jungle. Less likely to be invaded early by some junglers, and the de-emphasis on straight armor items actually benefits her, because Warmog's, Sunfire, Randuin's, etc. are the things she wants to build anyway because her damage gets pretty sick with 4500+ HP. She's also one of those junglers you simply can't overextend too far against ever, because if you're top and you're at the enemy turret and she comes in, flash is not going to save your life. Too much perma slow. It's like if Skarner gets on you, but she has a gap closer to make it happen even without boots. Not to mention the new spirit stone items make her clear better than it was just from the raw increased damage to camps via her aoe.
Her cooldowns still kind of suck when she's not getting blue buff, but you can always build some CDR to help with that, and it's not crippling anyway.
To clarify, by the point I built SotD I already had Black Cleaver, Blade of the Ruined King, Infinity Edge. I'm still flipflopping on BotRK vs Blood Thirster, as BT has better raw stats but the proc on BotRK and the active make it really attractive. It's great for surviving tower-dives and turning them into kills (or at worst, trades) for you.
I think I'll go with the bursty SotD as a 5th or 6th item if the situation warrants it. If they have a better tanky frontline, I probably won't bother, and would just pick up a Last Whisper instead.
BotK deals most of its damage as an on-hit, and on-hit scales with attack speed. Blood Thirster is going to be the better option 90% of the time.
Fuck me getting a solo lane is like pulling teeth.
Can we build up on a points system game? Like considering I play support and jungle in 70% of my games, can I just get tokens that let me boot kick ass holes from champ select on the rare occassions I want to play a solo lane?
What the fuck is wrong with people that they feel like they have to have a solo lane, and all the other roles are dull/useless. It's just stupid as sin.
Two dodges currently, hopefully we don't end up with more asshats.
0
ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
Fuck me getting a solo lane is like pulling teeth.
Can we build up on a points system game? Like considering I play support and jungle in 70% of my games, can I just get tokens that let me boot kick ass holes from champ select on the rare occassions I want to play a solo lane?
What the fuck is wrong with people that they feel like they have to have a solo lane, and all the other roles are dull/useless. It's just stupid as sin.
Two dodges currently, hopefully we don't end up with more asshats.
That wasn't massive. I was expecting a small essay.
Speaking of Sejuani, she is a beast in this new jungle. Less likely to be invaded early by some junglers, and the de-emphasis on straight armor items actually benefits her, because Warmog's, Sunfire, Randuin's, etc. are the things she wants to build anyway because her damage gets pretty sick with 4500+ HP. She's also one of those junglers you simply can't overextend too far against ever, because if you're top and you're at the enemy turret and she comes in, flash is not going to save your life. Too much perma slow. It's like if Skarner gets on you, but she has a gap closer to make it happen even without boots. Not to mention the new spirit stone items make her clear better than it was just from the raw increased damage to camps via her aoe.
Her cooldowns still kind of suck when she's not getting blue buff, but you can always build some CDR to help with that, and it's not crippling anyway.
I usually roll Ionian's with Sejuani, to get some cheap CDR, since I no longer build a Reverie with her (Spirit Stone replacing Philo) and I no longer need tenacity from my boots (though I do miss the MR from Mercs).
Sejuani is a hell of a lot of fun to jungle with though, just stack HP items (Torment, Warmogs, Sunfire, etc) with a bit of MR/AR and you're ready to rumble. Just got to be sure to sniple Blue early and often, for the extra mana and CDR (having her ult up for every gank/fight is just sick).
I usually go:
(Ghost and Smite, HP Quints, Armor Yellows, MR Blues, MPen Reds)
Machete and 5 pots
Boots
Spirit Stone
Haunting Guise
Giant's Belt
Ionian Boots
Torment
Spirit of the Ancient Golem
Warmogs/Sunfire/Abysmal Scepter, etc
Fuck me getting a solo lane is like pulling teeth.
Can we build up on a points system game? Like considering I play support and jungle in 70% of my games, can I just get tokens that let me boot kick ass holes from champ select on the rare occassions I want to play a solo lane?
What the fuck is wrong with people that they feel like they have to have a solo lane, and all the other roles are dull/useless. It's just stupid as sin.
Two dodges currently, hopefully we don't end up with more asshats.
Idiot (5th pick): TOP
Selfish Person (3rd Pick): TOP
Idiot: I CALLED TOP FIRST! I AM GOING TOP TEEMO!
Selfish Person: its pick order dude.
Idiot: NO IT CALL ORDER
First Pick Person: Actually guy I am going top *picks shen*
Idiot: I CALLED IT FIRST WHAT I THE POINT IN CALLING IT FIRST IF NO ONE FOLLOWS IT
Me: Because pick order > call order has always been how it works, if you want to be the fastest, go play blind pick.
*dodge*
That's what I always tell people if I'm 1st or 2nd pick. "I didn't play who can type fastest with you because I'm 1st/2nd pick and I'm going to pick what I want anyway." If I'm lower, I'll just ask nicely for whatever I want to play and pick around if I don't get it.
Speaking of Sejuani, she is a beast in this new jungle. Less likely to be invaded early by some junglers, and the de-emphasis on straight armor items actually benefits her, because Warmog's, Sunfire, Randuin's, etc. are the things she wants to build anyway because her damage gets pretty sick with 4500+ HP. She's also one of those junglers you simply can't overextend too far against ever, because if you're top and you're at the enemy turret and she comes in, flash is not going to save your life. Too much perma slow. It's like if Skarner gets on you, but she has a gap closer to make it happen even without boots. Not to mention the new spirit stone items make her clear better than it was just from the raw increased damage to camps via her aoe.
Her cooldowns still kind of suck when she's not getting blue buff, but you can always build some CDR to help with that, and it's not crippling anyway.
I usually roll Ionian's with Sejuani, to get some cheap CDR, since I no longer build a Reverie with her (Spirit Stone replacing Philo) and I no longer need tenacity from my boots (though I do miss the MR from Mercs).
Sejuani is a hell of a lot of fun to jungle with though, just stack HP items (Torment, Warmogs, Sunfire, etc) with a bit of MR/AR and you're ready to rumble. Just got to be sure to sniple Blue early and often, for the extra mana and CDR (having her ult up for every gank/fight is just sick).
I usually go:
(Ghost and Smite, HP Quints, Armor Yellows, MR Blues, MPen Reds)
Machete and 5 pots
Boots
Spirit Stone
Haunting Guise
Giant's Belt
Ionian Boots
Torment
Spirit of the Ancient Golem
Warmogs/Sunfire/Abysmal Scepter, etc
Yeah, I made fun of my buddy for going CDR boots on Sej jungle yesterday out of habit, but then I realized he's getting tenacity from his spirit stone, and with close to 5k hp he really didn't need tabi or the mr on the merc treads. Plus, the games he jungled Sej I went like 9/1 Orianna, 7/1 Eve, 17/1 Kassadin and part of that was his early ganks, so I shouldn't have made fun of him anyway, haha.
0
ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
That's what I always tell people if I'm 1st or 2nd pick. "I didn't play who can type fastest with you because I'm 1st/2nd pick and I'm going to pick what I want anyway." If I'm lower, I'll just ask nicely for whatever I want to play and pick around if I don't get it.
Yep. Now I just kindly tell people what I'm doing when I'm 1st or 2nd because people have shouted at me when I just pick what I want. "OMG FUCKING HAT TOOK JUNGLE I SAID JUNGLE." "...I didn't think I had to say anything because I got to take whatever I wanted..."
That's what I always tell people if I'm 1st or 2nd pick. "I didn't play who can type fastest with you because I'm 1st/2nd pick and I'm going to pick what I want anyway." If I'm lower, I'll just ask nicely for whatever I want to play and pick around if I don't get it.
Yep. Now I just kindly tell people what I'm doing when I'm 1st or 2nd because people have shouted at me when I just pick what I want. "OMG FUCKING HAT TOOK JUNGLE I SAID JUNGLE." "...I didn't think I had to say anything because I got to take whatever I wanted..."
I get annoyed at people who take a role I called when they're lower than me, and didn't say anything before it, because then I can't try to announce my off role and try to get that instead.
You are free to go ahead and take is from me, that's your choice, but you absolutely should let me know you're doing it beforehand so I can plan around it instead of getting 30s to realize there's only top and jungle left and I am not sure what's what.
Posts
I've considered it several times on supports if I find myself too fragile, or if I'm playing Nami. I don't like building AP on Nami, so if I'm taking a bunch of damage on her and I already have a couple other support items like mikaels and/or twin shadows or something, I've gone for (but not yet actually finished) ohmwrecker for the defensive ability.
3DS FCode: 1993-7512-8991
I think they over estimated how good it would be and bumped its gold too high. I honestly think is they made it 2k people would buy it, but it seems like the active would just be too powerful early game. Not sure why they even put it in the game.
edit: vods seem fine
That was big turn around, if mouse didn't derp that fight I think they would had good chance of winning.
That's why I mentioned Singed, because I could see a full tank build Singed maybe getting it since he actually makes better use of the stats than probably anybody, but it's still hard to pass up on RoA on Singed.
Lady: "Did you counter pick or did you have plan to pick Jax from beginning?"
Reaper: "Counter pick? I don't care"
ugh, doesn't look like any live streaming is working for me. I just get the IEM logo and no sound or anything. Ads play with sound and stuff, but they're choppy as all get-out. sad crim is sad
Thinking that the flat penetration on brutalizer needs a nerf is an easy assumption to make when you think about the changed priority of the penetration system on paper, but then when you notice that armor penetration runes all got hit and the % penetration mastery was reduced you will see that you are actually doing less damage throughout the game compared to season 2 until you finally spend another 1663 gold on cleaver or 2135 gold on whisper (the superior selfish damage item), in which case the over-tuned % penetration goes to work.
Opening brutalizer first in S3 is weaker in all cases compared to S2, even with the different penetration order.
In season 3, a brutalizer with 15 armor penetration using 0 additional flat penetration from runes and masteries but using the % penetration from masteries provides you with less than 1 armor pen over season 2 with the same setup on targets with more than 30 armor, and breaks even at 75 armor. If you add any additional flat armor penetration from runes or masteries then the season 2 setup beats the pre-nerf season 3 setup against all targets.
With that aside, the main problem with cleaver and whisper, as stated by Xypherous, is their % penetration is too high - their values were tuned to preseason armor. Because both of their values are too high, their stacked case gets even sillier. If whisper was the only item in the game with % penetration it might be fine at 35% (although I think it should be 30%, void staff too), but because cleaver is also a % penetration item (that everyone on the team benefits from) and you gain defensive stats at the same time you negate defensive stats, their stacked case becomes abusive.
Because the % penetration is too high right now, it makes flat penetration once you acquire the % penetration too powerful. In all cases you are worse off than before until you complete either cleaver or whisper.
After the % penetration, I maintain that the most offensive stat on cleaver is the health and not the flat penetration. The idea of becoming more durable while negating durability is stupid. One of your best offensive items shouldn't simultaneously be a great defensive item. It's the reason the movement speed was gutted on phantom dancer and why zhonya's ring got split into hourglass and deathcap.
Instead of being an early game AD item or an itemization path that punishes lower amounts of armor at the cost of higher raw damage, brutalizer and its upgrades are this weird set of items you want only after you have percentage penetration (which one of the items give) and that is just terrible.
The game would be much better off removing the health from cleaver completely and replacing the ruby crystal with a pickaxe in the recipe, possibly even removing an additional 2.5 - 5% from the total shred but stacking faster; unless perhaps the champions with frree penetration and shreds on their kits get looked at.
This allows you to have an almost similar early game with brutalizer as before but allows for something interesting when deciding what your next item may be- when you purchase a pickaxe for additional damage you then have the option of considering whether you would like to upgrade to cleaver and be a team player or be more selfish with the pickaxe and purchase a last whisper instead. In this manner getting early flat penetration doesn't feel absolutely terrible until you get % penetration, and the combination of cleaver + whisper + flat penetration builds don't feel so ridiculous to deal with as a tank since tank levels of armor actually protect you against it now (the reduced total % penetration) and that champion appropriately dies when looked at because he has no health or resistances at all.
TLDR: % Pen too high, health on cleaver is bullshit. Flat pen nerfs were tackling the problem wrong.
I'm assuming "quite."
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Because if it does I'm wondering whether AD users are going to want to have LW, BC and Ghostblade as their core build now.
I think the combo of stats is fine honestly, I think it's that the active is just redundant. You're building a ton of armor and health which already lets you dive towers as is. Furthermore, I think it takes way too damn long to build. It's hard to really rush in laning phase on any character since tanky tops are just banned (Malphite). So by the time you build it, the active feels "wasted" unless you're actually team fighting under a tower. Fighting at baron or dragon...not as great. Or if you're AT the tower but you're just poking it down and zoning them? Wasted.
They should put it on an early item that you could build in lane with damage. Maybe it would be interesting as like a Doran's Blade upgrade option to just let you really shit all over a lane you're winning. It won't help you as much later game since it still won't build into anything and then be really weak per slot, but if you're a top or bottom who's winning you could just use it to ruin their day. Although then it's probably too snowbally.
Crit chance and the active on Youmuu's still aren't that great on AD casters IMO. BC/LW are obviously the best, but after that, BT, BotRK, Hexdrinker/Maw, and GA are all better items on AD casters IMO. There are a few bruisers that can make really good use of a Youmuu, like XZ, but I wouldn't expect Riven, Pantheon, and other AD casters to go for Youmuu. Too much wasted stats compared to what they get out of more raw AD from something like BT.
Her cooldowns still kind of suck when she's not getting blue buff, but you can always build some CDR to help with that, and it's not crippling anyway.
I hear dashes have infinite range and no CD.
BotK deals most of its damage as an on-hit, and on-hit scales with attack speed. Blood Thirster is going to be the better option 90% of the time.
Can we build up on a points system game? Like considering I play support and jungle in 70% of my games, can I just get tokens that let me boot kick ass holes from champ select on the rare occassions I want to play a solo lane?
What the fuck is wrong with people that they feel like they have to have a solo lane, and all the other roles are dull/useless. It's just stupid as sin.
Two dodges currently, hopefully we don't end up with more asshats.
That wasn't massive. I was expecting a small essay.
Also let's leave hats out of this.
I usually roll Ionian's with Sejuani, to get some cheap CDR, since I no longer build a Reverie with her (Spirit Stone replacing Philo) and I no longer need tenacity from my boots (though I do miss the MR from Mercs).
Sejuani is a hell of a lot of fun to jungle with though, just stack HP items (Torment, Warmogs, Sunfire, etc) with a bit of MR/AR and you're ready to rumble. Just got to be sure to sniple Blue early and often, for the extra mana and CDR (having her ult up for every gank/fight is just sick).
I usually go:
(Ghost and Smite, HP Quints, Armor Yellows, MR Blues, MPen Reds)
Machete and 5 pots
Boots
Spirit Stone
Haunting Guise
Giant's Belt
Ionian Boots
Torment
Spirit of the Ancient Golem
Warmogs/Sunfire/Abysmal Scepter, etc
Selfish Person (3rd Pick): TOP
Idiot: I CALLED TOP FIRST! I AM GOING TOP TEEMO!
Selfish Person: its pick order dude.
Idiot: NO IT CALL ORDER
First Pick Person: Actually guy I am going top *picks shen*
Idiot: I CALLED IT FIRST WHAT I THE POINT IN CALLING IT FIRST IF NO ONE FOLLOWS IT
Me: Because pick order > call order has always been how it works, if you want to be the fastest, go play blind pick.
*dodge*
Yeah, I made fun of my buddy for going CDR boots on Sej jungle yesterday out of habit, but then I realized he's getting tenacity from his spirit stone, and with close to 5k hp he really didn't need tabi or the mr on the merc treads. Plus, the games he jungled Sej I went like 9/1 Orianna, 7/1 Eve, 17/1 Kassadin and part of that was his early ganks, so I shouldn't have made fun of him anyway, haha.
Yep. Now I just kindly tell people what I'm doing when I'm 1st or 2nd because people have shouted at me when I just pick what I want. "OMG FUCKING HAT TOOK JUNGLE I SAID JUNGLE." "...I didn't think I had to say anything because I got to take whatever I wanted..."
I get annoyed at people who take a role I called when they're lower than me, and didn't say anything before it, because then I can't try to announce my off role and try to get that instead.
You are free to go ahead and take is from me, that's your choice, but you absolutely should let me know you're doing it beforehand so I can plan around it instead of getting 30s to realize there's only top and jungle left and I am not sure what's what.
Do bots have runes/masteries?
Joe's Stream.
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