these new items are great on dominion leona. you get fat so fast with aegis and kindlegem stuff. I should try it out on taric too I have seen taric do some shit to people. one built ap and popped people for half their health with shatter+beast mode
Been playing a bunch of Renekton lately. Starting two rejuv pendants and 3 pots. Build them into a hydra later. Hydra is really strong on him because his w applies it 3 times. I wonder How sword of the divine would work with that. Lol 225% of my attack damage critting in a short animation. Tests must be done gentlemen. I love renekton. These new items are great.
these new items are great on dominion leona. you get fat so fast with aegis and kindlegem stuff. I should try it out on taric too I have seen taric do some shit to people. one built ap and popped people for half their health with shatter+beast mode
Have you tried Locket yet? The active is a bit meh, but the raw stats are fantastic.
Have you tried Locket yet? The active is a bit meh, but the raw stats are fantastic.
The active is actually awesome. Sure, its only 50-230 HP on all of your team mates (including you) but that equates to 100-500 gold apiece for each of them. In a close fight, activating it at the end of when your first guy goes down pretty much ensures that its full effect will be felt
Have you tried Locket yet? The active is a bit meh, but the raw stats are fantastic.
The active is actually awesome. Sure, its only 50-230 HP on all of your team mates (including you) but that equates to 100-500 gold apiece for each of them. In a close fight, activating it at the end of when your first guy goes down pretty much ensures that its full effect will be felt
In SR, sure. In dom where you have more frequent and smaller fights? Not so much.
I think my team wanted me to post this. Did a 5-man Normal Draft Queue and ran into another PA team!
My personal favorite part about this was that I had been previously told by an opposing player that I should never win a game as Mid Nocturne.
It was me, and you really shouldn't. I yelled at them so many times to get back bot and they stayed to die to you. It's like a Shaco or Eve or TF, if you don't adjust to be more cautious then you deserve to lose. Sure Nocturne hard counters certain middles, but in this case you benefited from my teams lack of map awareness.
The GP's lack of ward space is also somewhat...questioning.
I don't feel to bad though, that's what I like to call, the handicap team.
Have you tried Locket yet? The active is a bit meh, but the raw stats are fantastic.
The active is actually awesome. Sure, its only 50-230 HP on all of your team mates (including you) but that equates to 100-500 gold apiece for each of them. In a close fight, activating it at the end of when your first guy goes down pretty much ensures that its full effect will be felt
In SR, sure. In dom where you have more frequent and smaller fights? Not so much.
It's a 60 second cooldown. It will be up for nearly every meaningful confrontation in a match.
I think my team wanted me to post this. Did a 5-man Normal Draft Queue and ran into another PA team!
My personal favorite part about this was that I had been previously told by an opposing player that I should never win a game as Mid Nocturne.
It was me, and you really shouldn't. I yelled at them so many times to get back bot and they stayed to die to you. It's like a Shaco or Eve or TF, if you don't adjust to be more cautious then you deserve to lose. Sure Nocturne hard counters certain middles, but in this case you benefited from my teams lack of map awareness.
The GP's lack of ward space is also somewhat...questioning.
I don't feel to bad though, that's what I like to call, the handicap team.
Mid Nocturne works as well as any melee that goes mid like Diana, Eve, and Katarina. Has better than average ganks, but doesn't need them to snowball because he has great scaling. Saying that I should never win a game as Mid Nocturne is like saying the 3 champions I mentioned should never win, yet those 3 champions saw an incredible amount of play at tournament level.
I'd say he actually has a decent amount of bad match ups in mid, but he's polar in that he dominates his good match ups and has much better than average ganking potential. Your wording was disproportionate to Mid Nocturne's situation and the way you said it seemed like you just wanted to shut me down.
Mid Nocturne is a powerful mid and a powerful team fighter. Deal with it.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
I think my team wanted me to post this. Did a 5-man Normal Draft Queue and ran into another PA team!
My personal favorite part about this was that I had been previously told by an opposing player that I should never win a game as Mid Nocturne.
It was me, and you really shouldn't. I yelled at them so many times to get back bot and they stayed to die to you. It's like a Shaco or Eve or TF, if you don't adjust to be more cautious then you deserve to lose. Sure Nocturne hard counters certain middles, but in this case you benefited from my teams lack of map awareness.
The GP's lack of ward space is also somewhat...questioning.
I don't feel to bad though, that's what I like to call, the handicap team.
Mid Nocturne works as well as any melee that goes mid like Diana, Eve, and Katarina. Has better than average ganks, but doesn't need them to snowball because he has great scaling. Saying that I should never win a game as Mid Nocturne is like saying the 3 champions I mentioned should never win, yet those 3 champions saw an incredible amount of play at tournament level.
I'd say he actually has a decent amount of bad match ups in mid, but he's polar in that he dominates his good match ups and has much better than average ganking potential. Your wording was disproportionate to Mid Nocturne's situation and the way you said it seemed like you just wanted to shut me down.
Mid Nocturne is a powerful mid and a powerful team fighter. Deal with it.
No need to take it so personally, or take it personally, it doesn't bother me. Shoving it in my face one time doesn't mean it's viable. Just by you making it work a few games here or there doesn't mean its something solid. I stand by what i said that he is not a good middle, and you are right that he shouldn't lose all the time, because he obviously counters certain middles, and should win those matchups.
He takes a valuable spot in the middle that he can fill just as well in the jungle. This is down to preference now, I don't have arguments over what if's. What you said could apply to any champion. Any champion dominates there good matchups, thats what a good matchup is. His ult is good for ganking. So i'll give you that.
But like i said, that team wasn't really something that I would use as serious evidence, we were kind of screwing around...if you couldn't obviously tell. Not to mention some serious build problems were present.
So no, I will not deal with it. Hes an okay mid and a powerful team fighter, though he shines more in the jungle. Just as Diana can jungle and middle, but she shines in middle. Just as Eve can jungle and middle, she also shines in the middle. There is a pattern here.
I think my team wanted me to post this. Did a 5-man Normal Draft Queue and ran into another PA team!
My personal favorite part about this was that I had been previously told by an opposing player that I should never win a game as Mid Nocturne.
The important thing to note here is that I was right last night when I said your curse of doing well in lane as mid Nocturne and then losing because of feeding side lanes was ended by that DC. All hail my powers of foresight.
eeSanGI slice like a goddamn hammer.Registered Userregular
Nocturne doesn't waste a "valuable spot" in middle. He scales incredibly well with gold, items, and experience. Having mid farm allows him to be way stronger than most players have seen and can easily dive an AD + Support and solo them. Having mid exp lets him apply pressure with his ultimate earlier than if he was jungling. He clears waves incredibly fast so he can shove mid, and walk into the jungle. Now every lane has to be scared, exactly like playing against a TF.
He isn't a "0 damage" CC jungler like a Maokai or Nautilus. Having lane farm means he can fulfill his role even better than from the jungle, exactly like Diana and Eve.
And that game wasn't the only time I've done well with Mid Nocturne. The one time out of over a dozen games that I was disappointed with my personal performance was when I dc'ed and came back to a level 10 mid at level 5. I've been picking him into every match up so it's not like I've been intentionally countering all of my opponents either.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
I think the point Bill is making is that if you're playing Nocturne mid, even if you do really well with it, you've denied your team a burst caster. In theory, this is a large disadvantage in teamfights (assuming their team has picked a burst caster, and said caster farms in roughly equal parity with Nocturne). You've also, as Bill has said, taken Nocturne away from his strongest position (roaming as a jungler), and arguably Nocturne would do just as well to, say, roam in the jungle and camp mid rather that actually sitting him in mid lane.
I think the point Bill is making is that if you're playing Nocturne mid, even if you do really well with it, you've denied your team a burst caster. In theory, this is a large disadvantage in teamfights (assuming their team has picked a burst caster, and said caster farms in roughly equal parity with Nocturne). You've also, as Bill has said, taken Nocturne away from his strongest position (roaming as a jungler), and arguably Nocturne would do just as well to, say, roam in the jungle and camp mid rather that actually sitting him in mid lane.
So take Vladmir, Kennen, Swain or Rumble top as a bursty AP. Problem solved. He still roams and ganks as much. Except now he both gets damagey and tanky enough to carry dive without worrying too much. Also his Q hits like a truck. Nocturne middle is no worse than Talon or Pantheon middle. Harder to gank even (Spellshield + Speedboost)
We wanted to do Shen + Nocturne pain delivery service, but it was banned out to Varega's dismay.
I think the point Bill is making is that if you're playing Nocturne mid, even if you do really well with it, you've denied your team a burst caster. In theory, this is a large disadvantage in teamfights (assuming their team has picked a burst caster, and said caster farms in roughly equal parity with Nocturne). You've also, as Bill has said, taken Nocturne away from his strongest position (roaming as a jungler), and arguably Nocturne would do just as well to, say, roam in the jungle and camp mid rather that actually sitting him in mid lane.
The thing to note here is that going mid doesn't prevent him from roaming. It actually gets him to level six faster, with better items, and puts him in a place where he can easily move top or bottom.
Even better, you can combine this with jungler ganks to make an instant 3v1 or 4v2 in the side lanes.
I think the point Bill is making is that if you're playing Nocturne mid, even if you do really well with it, you've denied your team a burst caster. In theory, this is a large disadvantage in teamfights (assuming their team has picked a burst caster, and said caster farms in roughly equal parity with Nocturne). You've also, as Bill has said, taken Nocturne away from his strongest position (roaming as a jungler), and arguably Nocturne would do just as well to, say, roam in the jungle and camp mid rather that actually sitting him in mid lane.
Nocturne can roam super easily from mid because he pushes so hard. You can be the mid laner and only spend like 10% of your time in mid lane after a certain point. In addition, his ganks become much much scarier when you have mid lane farm instead of jungle farm. You also don't necessarily deny your team a "burst caster" (by this I assume you mean an AP) because you can send an AP top lane. Alternatively, it's viable to have no or minimal AP because of how much armor penetration is available (Last Whisper and Black Cleaver together negate a TON of armor).
EDIT: Ender if you're just clarifying Bill's position and you don't agree with it yourself, know that I'm arguing with him and not you. I just quoted you for simplicity.
It was not even a year ago when I was regularly playing LeBlanc, and starting with sorc shoes and haunting guise, and every person I saw told me that was a terrible idea, because they believed haunting guise was a terrible item.
We should be open-minded about changes to the norms that we think are absolute. League is a complex system- not only are optimizations and metachanges constantly filtering their way through the community, but they are absolutely never going to stop.
It was not even a year ago when I was regularly playing LeBlanc, and starting with sorc shoes and haunting guise, and every person I saw told me that was a terrible idea, because they believed haunting guise was a terrible item.
We should be open-minded about changes to the norms that we think are absolute. League is a complex system- not only are optimizations and metachanges constantly filtering their way through the community, but they are absolutely never going to stop.
This is an interesting discussion. I've been playing more Nocturne in the jungle since the season 3 patch, as he's one of the junglers I feel has gone from very good to great. The itemization changes have been very beneficial to him, as well the armor pen changes.
Taking him mid is an certainly different, though he's much closer to Lee Sin or Pantheon mid, than a Talon . How are you building him? 9/21/0 with a rush to Black Cleaver/Phage? Or are you doing 21/9/0 with a rush to BT/Brutalizer? Is a static shiv worthwhile? (seems like it would be)
Also, what are his weaknesses mid? I think he'd do fine against the burst melee casters. But how about the longer range mages, such as lux/xerath/oriana? Does he default to Q spam if he's getting lane bullied?
This sounds fun, I'm interested to hear your thoughts.
Whats the point of taking Nocturne middle, over say, Pantheon? I dont really see nocturne being a threat to the other mid in terms of kill potential like panth or lee sin, because his reposition (his ult) is on such a long cooldown. So, he can keep up with farm, but hes not going to really deny the other mid anything. His ganks bot lane are good, but other mids like pantheon or eve gank bot better, his ult range is Ok, but until you get to the third rank, it should be fairly easy for the enemy bot or top lane to see you coming, unlike panth or eve. I suppose in teamfights, it is much easier for him to get on the carry as opposed to those two, and he can build much more tanky and still keep good damage up. I just dont really get why you would take him mid, for farming, I would think that top would be a better place for him, simply because with his fear and his dusk trail, he can chase fairly well and would have a better shot at killing the opposing player and top lane is just longer. Just curious what advantage you see to mid nocturne having over top nocturne
Edit: I will do some testing and try it out today and see how it goes.
Whats the point of taking Nocturne middle, over say, Pantheon? I dont really see nocturne being a threat to the other mid in terms of kill potential like panth or lee sin, because his reposition (his ult) is on such a long cooldown. So, he can keep up with farm, but hes not going to really deny the other mid anything. His ganks bot lane are good, but other mids like pantheon or eve gank bot better, his ult range is Ok, but until you get to the third rank, it should be fairly easy for the enemy bot or top lane to see you coming, unlike panth or eve. I suppose in teamfights, it is much easier for him to get on the carry as opposed to those two, and he can build much more tanky and still keep good damage up. I just dont really get why you would take him mid, for farming, I would think that top would be a better place for him, simply because with his fear and his dusk trail, he can chase fairly well and would have a better shot at killing the opposing player and top lane is just longer. Just curious what ad. vantage see you mid nocturne having over top nocturne
Well, for one, nocturne is an assassin and it's easier to kill a mage while they're feared than it is to kill a bruiser.
Also from mid you can gank two lanes instead of one.
As has been said before, mid typically gets blue, as well.
Additionally, against a mage, the spell shield will be much more effective than against a bruiser. A single leveled skill from a mage will be a much better shield than a dash from a top- which is essentially the comparison you're making.
Of course this is theory so take it with a grain of salt, but those are just some advantages I can see to him being mid over being top. It would be just as easy to come up with a list of advantages for top, or jungle.
Whats the point of taking Nocturne middle, over say, Pantheon? I dont really see nocturne being a threat to the other mid in terms of kill potential like panth or lee sin, because his reposition (his ult) is on such a long cooldown. So, he can keep up with farm, but hes not going to really deny the other mid anything. His ganks bot lane are good, but other mids like pantheon or eve gank bot better, his ult range is Ok, but until you get to the third rank, it should be fairly easy for the enemy bot or top lane to see you coming, unlike panth or eve. I suppose in teamfights, it is much easier for him to get on the carry as opposed to those two, and he can build much more tanky and still keep good damage up. I just dont really get why you would take him mid, for farming, I would think that top would be a better place for him, simply because with his fear and his dusk trail, he can chase fairly well and would have a better shot at killing the opposing player and top lane is just longer. Just curious what ad. vantage see you mid nocturne having over top nocturne
Well, for one, nocturne is an assassin and it's easier to kill a mage while they're feared than it is to kill a bruiser.
Also from mid you can gank two lanes instead of one.
As has been said before, mid typically gets blue, as well.
Additionally, against a mage, the spell shield will be much more effective than against a bruiser. A single leveled skill from a mage will be a much better shield than a dash from a top- which is essentially the comparison you're making.
Of course this is theory so take it with a grain of salt, but those are just some advantages I can see to him being mid over being top. It would be just as easy to come up with a list of advantages for top, or jungle.
I disagree with the assertion that he is an assassin. Talon is an assassin, Nocturne is a bruiser. He does excellent sustained DPS. He does not have tremendous burst, unless you've specifically build him for burst DPS (IE+Yomuu's for example.)
I don't see him as being "better" than Pantheon is some abstract sense, I think the idea is to create a stable of melee bruisers/assassins mid, that you can use to counter pick certain mages.
Whats the point of taking Nocturne middle, over say, Pantheon? I dont really see nocturne being a threat to the other mid in terms of kill potential like panth or lee sin, because his reposition (his ult) is on such a long cooldown. So, he can keep up with farm, but hes not going to really deny the other mid anything. His ganks bot lane are good, but other mids like pantheon or eve gank bot better, his ult range is Ok, but until you get to the third rank, it should be fairly easy for the enemy bot or top lane to see you coming, unlike panth or eve. I suppose in teamfights, it is much easier for him to get on the carry as opposed to those two, and he can build much more tanky and still keep good damage up. I just dont really get why you would take him mid, for farming, I would think that top would be a better place for him, simply because with his fear and his dusk trail, he can chase fairly well and would have a better shot at killing the opposing player and top lane is just longer. Just curious what ad. vantage see you mid nocturne having over top nocturne
Well, for one, nocturne is an assassin and it's easier to kill a mage while they're feared than it is to kill a bruiser.
Also from mid you can gank two lanes instead of one.
As has been said before, mid typically gets blue, as well.
Additionally, against a mage, the spell shield will be much more effective than against a bruiser. A single leveled skill from a mage will be a much better shield than a dash from a top- which is essentially the comparison you're making.
Of course this is theory so take it with a grain of salt, but those are just some advantages I can see to him being mid over being top. It would be just as easy to come up with a list of advantages for top, or jungle.
I disagree with the assertion that he is an assassin. Talon is an assassin, Nocturne is a bruiser. He does excellent sustained DPS. He does not have tremendous burst, unless you've specifically build him for burst DPS (IE+Yomuu's for example.)
I don't see him as being "better" than Pantheon is some abstract sense, I think the idea is to create a stable of melee bruisers/assassins mid, that you can use to counter pick certain mages.
Is high burst really the only hallmark of an assassin though? He can sneak up on you without you realizing he's close enough, cc you while you die, and if you try to escape he has tools to chase you down and make sure you're dead.
Also, I think it more depends on build. You can make a lot of characters assassins or bruisers simply by itemization.
Whats the point of taking Nocturne middle, over say, Pantheon? I dont really see nocturne being a threat to the other mid in terms of kill potential like panth or lee sin, because his reposition (his ult) is on such a long cooldown. So, he can keep up with farm, but hes not going to really deny the other mid anything. His ganks bot lane are good, but other mids like pantheon or eve gank bot better, his ult range is Ok, but until you get to the third rank, it should be fairly easy for the enemy bot or top lane to see you coming, unlike panth or eve. I suppose in teamfights, it is much easier for him to get on the carry as opposed to those two, and he can build much more tanky and still keep good damage up. I just dont really get why you would take him mid, for farming, I would think that top would be a better place for him, simply because with his fear and his dusk trail, he can chase fairly well and would have a better shot at killing the opposing player and top lane is just longer. Just curious what ad. vantage see you mid nocturne having over top nocturne
Well, for one, nocturne is an assassin and it's easier to kill a mage while they're feared than it is to kill a bruiser.
Also from mid you can gank two lanes instead of one.
As has been said before, mid typically gets blue, as well.
Additionally, against a mage, the spell shield will be much more effective than against a bruiser. A single leveled skill from a mage will be a much better shield than a dash from a top- which is essentially the comparison you're making.
Of course this is theory so take it with a grain of salt, but those are just some advantages I can see to him being mid over being top. It would be just as easy to come up with a list of advantages for top, or jungle.
I disagree with the assertion that he is an assassin. Talon is an assassin, Nocturne is a bruiser. He does excellent sustained DPS. He does not have tremendous burst, unless you've specifically build him for burst DPS (IE+Yomuu's for example.)
I don't see him as being "better" than Pantheon is some abstract sense, I think the idea is to create a stable of melee bruisers/assassins mid, that you can use to counter pick certain mages.
Is high burst really the only hallmark of an assassin though? He can sneak up on you without you realizing he's close enough, cc you while you die, and if you try to escape he has tools to chase you down and make sure you're dead.
Also, I think it more depends on build. You can make a lot of characters assassins or bruisers simply by itemization.
Typically I find assassins burst through their abilities, while bruisers tend to go with more auto attacks.
Assassins on the other hand get in, blow their abilities to burst down a target and then either try to get out or die (or try to finish off everyone if fed enough)
That's why champs like Pantheon, Kassadin, Katarina, Zed, Talon etc are more assassins, while champs like Darius, Olaf, Yorick, etc are more Bruisers.
Both Assassins and Bruisers can be built either way, but I tend to use that as a quick classification.
With Nocturne getting passive attack speed and most of his damage coming from autos (his Q boosting his auto damage) I would classify him more as an AD Carry. He tends to have longer engagements focused around auto attacking an enemy down. You can certainly build him like a bruiser, but I think he falls more in line with Tryndamere and Fiora as a melee AD Carry when you lane with him.
You just don't see him lane often so he has to itemize more as a bruiser since he is usually behind in levels from the jungle (assuming he hasn't been fed)
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Other than his Q costing fuck tons of mana, that'd kinda screw him.
But I don't see why it can't work, Nocturne with farm is fucking scary.
Don't forget mid typically gets blue
Yeah but depending on jungler they usually don't get the first. Which is probably when Noc would want to be most 'Imma spam Q and farm without having to last hit up close'.
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you can do it sort of but why
Noone expects ap tree!
Have you tried Locket yet? The active is a bit meh, but the raw stats are fantastic.
The active is actually awesome. Sure, its only 50-230 HP on all of your team mates (including you) but that equates to 100-500 gold apiece for each of them. In a close fight, activating it at the end of when your first guy goes down pretty much ensures that its full effect will be felt
In SR, sure. In dom where you have more frequent and smaller fights? Not so much.
My personal favorite part about this was that I had been previously told by an opposing player that I should never win a game as Mid Nocturne.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
It was a little intense there
It was me, and you really shouldn't. I yelled at them so many times to get back bot and they stayed to die to you. It's like a Shaco or Eve or TF, if you don't adjust to be more cautious then you deserve to lose. Sure Nocturne hard counters certain middles, but in this case you benefited from my teams lack of map awareness.
The GP's lack of ward space is also somewhat...questioning.
I don't feel to bad though, that's what I like to call, the handicap team.
It's a 60 second cooldown. It will be up for nearly every meaningful confrontation in a match.
Mid Nocturne works as well as any melee that goes mid like Diana, Eve, and Katarina. Has better than average ganks, but doesn't need them to snowball because he has great scaling. Saying that I should never win a game as Mid Nocturne is like saying the 3 champions I mentioned should never win, yet those 3 champions saw an incredible amount of play at tournament level.
I'd say he actually has a decent amount of bad match ups in mid, but he's polar in that he dominates his good match ups and has much better than average ganking potential. Your wording was disproportionate to Mid Nocturne's situation and the way you said it seemed like you just wanted to shut me down.
Mid Nocturne is a powerful mid and a powerful team fighter. Deal with it.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
No need to take it so personally, or take it personally, it doesn't bother me. Shoving it in my face one time doesn't mean it's viable. Just by you making it work a few games here or there doesn't mean its something solid. I stand by what i said that he is not a good middle, and you are right that he shouldn't lose all the time, because he obviously counters certain middles, and should win those matchups.
He takes a valuable spot in the middle that he can fill just as well in the jungle. This is down to preference now, I don't have arguments over what if's. What you said could apply to any champion. Any champion dominates there good matchups, thats what a good matchup is. His ult is good for ganking. So i'll give you that.
But like i said, that team wasn't really something that I would use as serious evidence, we were kind of screwing around...if you couldn't obviously tell. Not to mention some serious build problems were present.
So no, I will not deal with it. Hes an okay mid and a powerful team fighter, though he shines more in the jungle. Just as Diana can jungle and middle, but she shines in middle. Just as Eve can jungle and middle, she also shines in the middle. There is a pattern here.
The important thing to note here is that I was right last night when I said your curse of doing well in lane as mid Nocturne and then losing because of feeding side lanes was ended by that DC. All hail my powers of foresight.
Steam: Drokmir
He isn't a "0 damage" CC jungler like a Maokai or Nautilus. Having lane farm means he can fulfill his role even better than from the jungle, exactly like Diana and Eve.
And that game wasn't the only time I've done well with Mid Nocturne. The one time out of over a dozen games that I was disappointed with my personal performance was when I dc'ed and came back to a level 10 mid at level 5. I've been picking him into every match up so it's not like I've been intentionally countering all of my opponents either.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
Other than his Q costing fuck tons of mana, that'd kinda screw him.
But I don't see why it can't work, Nocturne with farm is fucking scary.
So take Vladmir, Kennen, Swain or Rumble top as a bursty AP. Problem solved. He still roams and ganks as much. Except now he both gets damagey and tanky enough to carry dive without worrying too much. Also his Q hits like a truck. Nocturne middle is no worse than Talon or Pantheon middle. Harder to gank even (Spellshield + Speedboost)
We wanted to do Shen + Nocturne pain delivery service, but it was banned out to Varega's dismay.
And Bill, him going bot wasn't the problem.
The thing to note here is that going mid doesn't prevent him from roaming. It actually gets him to level six faster, with better items, and puts him in a place where he can easily move top or bottom.
Even better, you can combine this with jungler ganks to make an instant 3v1 or 4v2 in the side lanes.
Nocturne can roam super easily from mid because he pushes so hard. You can be the mid laner and only spend like 10% of your time in mid lane after a certain point. In addition, his ganks become much much scarier when you have mid lane farm instead of jungle farm. You also don't necessarily deny your team a "burst caster" (by this I assume you mean an AP) because you can send an AP top lane. Alternatively, it's viable to have no or minimal AP because of how much armor penetration is available (Last Whisper and Black Cleaver together negate a TON of armor).
EDIT: Ender if you're just clarifying Bill's position and you don't agree with it yourself, know that I'm arguing with him and not you. I just quoted you for simplicity.
We should be open-minded about changes to the norms that we think are absolute. League is a complex system- not only are optimizations and metachanges constantly filtering their way through the community, but they are absolutely never going to stop.
Don't forget mid typically gets blue
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agree
/humble
Taking him mid is an certainly different, though he's much closer to Lee Sin or Pantheon mid, than a Talon . How are you building him? 9/21/0 with a rush to Black Cleaver/Phage? Or are you doing 21/9/0 with a rush to BT/Brutalizer? Is a static shiv worthwhile? (seems like it would be)
Also, what are his weaknesses mid? I think he'd do fine against the burst melee casters. But how about the longer range mages, such as lux/xerath/oriana? Does he default to Q spam if he's getting lane bullied?
This sounds fun, I'm interested to hear your thoughts.
Edit: I will do some testing and try it out today and see how it goes.
Well, for one, nocturne is an assassin and it's easier to kill a mage while they're feared than it is to kill a bruiser.
Also from mid you can gank two lanes instead of one.
As has been said before, mid typically gets blue, as well.
Additionally, against a mage, the spell shield will be much more effective than against a bruiser. A single leveled skill from a mage will be a much better shield than a dash from a top- which is essentially the comparison you're making.
Of course this is theory so take it with a grain of salt, but those are just some advantages I can see to him being mid over being top. It would be just as easy to come up with a list of advantages for top, or jungle.
I disagree with the assertion that he is an assassin. Talon is an assassin, Nocturne is a bruiser. He does excellent sustained DPS. He does not have tremendous burst, unless you've specifically build him for burst DPS (IE+Yomuu's for example.)
I don't see him as being "better" than Pantheon is some abstract sense, I think the idea is to create a stable of melee bruisers/assassins mid, that you can use to counter pick certain mages.
Is high burst really the only hallmark of an assassin though? He can sneak up on you without you realizing he's close enough, cc you while you die, and if you try to escape he has tools to chase you down and make sure you're dead.
Also, I think it more depends on build. You can make a lot of characters assassins or bruisers simply by itemization.
Typically I find assassins burst through their abilities, while bruisers tend to go with more auto attacks.
Assassins on the other hand get in, blow their abilities to burst down a target and then either try to get out or die (or try to finish off everyone if fed enough)
That's why champs like Pantheon, Kassadin, Katarina, Zed, Talon etc are more assassins, while champs like Darius, Olaf, Yorick, etc are more Bruisers.
Both Assassins and Bruisers can be built either way, but I tend to use that as a quick classification.
With Nocturne getting passive attack speed and most of his damage coming from autos (his Q boosting his auto damage) I would classify him more as an AD Carry. He tends to have longer engagements focused around auto attacking an enemy down. You can certainly build him like a bruiser, but I think he falls more in line with Tryndamere and Fiora as a melee AD Carry when you lane with him.
You just don't see him lane often so he has to itemize more as a bruiser since he is usually behind in levels from the jungle (assuming he hasn't been fed)
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People started using it often way before season 3 started, though.
Yeah but depending on jungler they usually don't get the first. Which is probably when Noc would want to be most 'Imma spam Q and farm without having to last hit up close'.