as folks have said the main solution here is to get more ladies in the business and STEM fields in general
a good way to do this is to make the existing contributions of ladies more visible to break down the perception that technical fields are just for dudes
hashtag number one reason why does a p. good job of increasing visibility, but I feel like it should be balanced with a more positive companion campaign that highlights what ladies in the industry have done, do daily, and can do in the future
that article about how a creepy scenario in dragon age three was avoided is a good example
I'm just curious: Why is the solution to get more women into a certain industry?
I'm not saying equality shouldn't be there, or that they shouldn't be in the industry, or anything. I'm all for breaking down all the barriers and stereotypes and getting rid of sexist perceptions. But why is the end goal "get more women working in an industry" and not "make it as easy or difficult for women to succeed in a given industry than it is for men?"
I mean, if we make the industry a completely non-hostile environment for women, but even with that women in STEM fields levels off a significant level below 50%, isn't that still a victory? If, after the industry was as open as it could be, men were still more interested in women, then so what? At that point the only way to level things off would be to recruit women preferably over men or target women in advertising for the industry, which is still sort of sexist in a quota system type "we need to have X women at our company to not look bad" way.
I think the focus should definitely be kept on "make the industry a more welcoming place" and not "get more women into the industry."
Males are not designed with a heavy slant towards sex-appeal? I think they are. Most if not all of them.
Can we just shut this argument down early.
This summarises so much of the men are sexy too thing. They may be physically impressive, but rarely are they the kind of thing people want in bed. Unlike female characters, of which many people would want in bed and are often portrayed as not entirely hating the idea of being in bed with the protagonist.
Oh god, I just posted in a sexism thread, allow me to run for safety now.
as folks have said the main solution here is to get more ladies in the business and STEM fields in general
a good way to do this is to make the existing contributions of ladies more visible to break down the perception that technical fields are just for dudes
hashtag number one reason why does a p. good job of increasing visibility, but I feel like it should be balanced with a more positive companion campaign that highlights what ladies in the industry have done, do daily, and can do in the future
that article about how a creepy scenario in dragon age three was avoided is a good example
I'm just curious: Why is the solution to get more women into a certain industry?
I'm not saying equality shouldn't be there, or that they shouldn't be in the industry, or anything. I'm all for breaking down all the barriers and stereotypes and getting rid of sexist perceptions. But why is the end goal "get more women working in an industry" and not "make it as easy or difficult for women to succeed in a given industry than it is for men?"
I mean, if we make the industry a completely non-hostile environment for women, but even with that women in STEM fields levels off a significant level below 50%, isn't that still a victory? If, after the industry was as open as it could be, men were still more interested in women, then so what? At that point the only way to level things off would be to recruit women preferably over men or target women in advertising for the industry, which is still sort of sexist in a quota system type "we need to have X women at our company to not look bad" way.
I think the focus should definitely be kept on "make the industry a more welcoming place" and not "get more women into the industry."
Those are virtually the same thing. How can we make the industry a more welcoming place? By eliminating elements that women are averse to. How can we find out what those are? Well, you'll need women for that.
The problem with this whole thing boils down to the player base. If the industry evolved and stopped developing games to pander to young males, that would be a great thing, but the truth is, it's harder to sell a multi-million dollar game that doesn't pander to male fantasies, sexual or power.
Well Nintendo does this much more than anyone else in the console space, don't they?
The bad thing is that I think that not catering to young males is part of why they get dismissed by a lot of gaming media.
Another piece of why this is a systemic problem is that some of the websites promoting the 1 reasonwhy hashtag don't even have women making content for them. GiantBomb for sure and I think RPS covered this too. And those are websites are far from the dumbest, lowest denominator kinds of sites.
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
A better example for this discussion could be EDI from Mass Effect. A very good and likeable AI that was transferred to some sort of sexbot in Mass Effect 3 in one of the worst design decisions I have ever seen.
This doesn't really seem like that different a situation. They're both personable AI characters who ended up in obviously sexualized forms, EDI's is just more abrupt because it happened all in one go. Mass Effect in general is a pretty good example of female characters that are written well but designed atrociously.
hashtag number one reason why does a p. good job of increasing visibility, but I feel like it should be balanced with a more positive companion campaign that highlights what ladies in the industry have done, do daily, and can do in the future
as folks have said the main solution here is to get more ladies in the business and STEM fields in general
a good way to do this is to make the existing contributions of ladies more visible to break down the perception that technical fields are just for dudes
hashtag number one reason why does a p. good job of increasing visibility, but I feel like it should be balanced with a more positive companion campaign that highlights what ladies in the industry have done, do daily, and can do in the future
that article about how a creepy scenario in dragon age three was avoided is a good example
I'm just curious: Why is the solution to get more women into a certain industry?
I'm not saying equality shouldn't be there, or that they shouldn't be in the industry, or anything. I'm all for breaking down all the barriers and stereotypes and getting rid of sexist perceptions. But why is the end goal "get more women working in an industry" and not "make it as easy or difficult for women to succeed in a given industry than it is for men?"
I mean, if we make the industry a completely non-hostile environment for women, but even with that women in STEM fields levels off a significant level below 50%, isn't that still a victory? If, after the industry was as open as it could be, men were still more interested in women, then so what? At that point the only way to level things off would be to recruit women preferably over men or target women in advertising for the industry, which is still sort of sexist in a quota system type "we need to have X women at our company to not look bad" way.
I think the focus should definitely be kept on "make the industry a more welcoming place" and not "get more women into the industry."
guess what is the best way to make the industry a more welcoming place for ladies
get more ladies in there
why get more ladies in there?
diversity is always better and allows you to look at situations from different perspectives
if the industry was as open as it could be then the gender ratio would likely be a solid 50/50, perhaps slightly leaning towards the ladies since the studies show that they actually do better than dudes in math and science classes in school and the ratio only gets dramatically unbalanced when it comes to college majors and professional work
A better example for this discussion could be EDI from Mass Effect. A very good and likeable AI that was transferred to some sort of sexbot in Mass Effect 3 in one of the worst design decisions I have ever seen.
This doesn't really seem like that different a situation. They're both personable AI characters who ended up in obviously sexualized forms, EDI's is just more abrupt because it happened all in one go. Mass Effect in general is a pretty good example of female characters that are written well but designed atrociously.
hashtag number one reason why does a p. good job of increasing visibility, but I feel like it should be balanced with a more positive companion campaign that highlights what ladies in the industry have done, do daily, and can do in the future
I don't know about Nintendo, their two main flagship titles, Mario and Legend of Zelda, are based around a male protagonist saving a female damsel. I really wouldn't say Peach, Toadstool, and Zelda are sexualized females, but I would say that getting the girl in the end against overwhelming forces is pretty much a male power fantasy and it portrays the female as helpless next to the antagonist.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
I think Cortana is also hamstrung by, well, being designed 12-13 years ago. I think the gaming community's attitude, if some portion of it can be said to be swinging in a better direction, has only started to improve on female portrayal recently.
I would agree, except Cortana's appearance has changed with every game, becoming more and more sexualised. Hell, load up Halo CE:A and swap between old-style graphics and updated. Yeah she's always had no clothes, but more recent Cortana is absolutely designed to look 'hotter'.
What I'd like to hear is the opinions from the number of women who are high up at 343. I'm also really intrigued to see where Halo 5 goes.
+3
Options
KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
I don't know about Nintendo, their two main flagship titles, Mario and Legend of Zelda, are based around a male protagonist saving a female damsel. I really wouldn't say Peach, Toadstool, and Zelda are sexualized females, but I would say that getting the girl in the end against overwhelming forces is pretty much a male power fantasy and it portrays the female as helpless next to the antagonist.
One of the reasons Samus getting sexified lately is so irritating.
I don't know about Nintendo, their two main flagship titles, Mario and Legend of Zelda, are based around a male protagonist saving a female damsel. I really wouldn't say Peach, Toadstool, and Zelda are sexualized females, but I would say that getting the girl in the end against overwhelming forces is pretty much a male power fantasy and it portrays the female as helpless next to the antagonist.
I was thinking more about the m/f ratio of people who own/play on DSs and Wiis more than any particular games. Still, I think that Mario at least has a much broader appeal than Call of Duty or DOA: Beach Volleyball. That's a low bar but a bar that the industry has set for itself.
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
I don't know about Nintendo, their two main flagship titles, Mario and Legend of Zelda, are based around a male protagonist saving a female damsel. I really wouldn't say Peach, Toadstool, and Zelda are sexualized females, but I would say that getting the girl in the end against overwhelming forces is pretty much a male power fantasy and it portrays the female as helpless next to the antagonist.
One of the reasons Samus getting sexified lately is so irritating.
Nintendo seems to have taken that criticism to heart though, they've been very quiet about Metroid since Other M and it feels like they don't really know where to take it from there. they didn't even do anything for the 25th anniversary.
I don't know about Nintendo, their two main flagship titles, Mario and Legend of Zelda, are based around a male protagonist saving a female damsel. I really wouldn't say Peach, Toadstool, and Zelda are sexualized females, but I would say that getting the girl in the end against overwhelming forces is pretty much a male power fantasy and it portrays the female as helpless next to the antagonist.
One of the reasons Samus getting sexified lately is so irritating.
Pretty much, yeah. People are still shocked to learn that Samus was a woman. Before it was revealed at the end of the original Metroid, people were playing it as a male power fantasy. It was exactly the same, except that it was a powerful character who just happened to be female instead of being a powerful female character, there's a difference.
Another M fucked that up by making her whiney and I have no idea why they did that.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Another good example of it being done right would be Shepard in Mass Effect, although that's mostly down to the gender-neutral design.
I personally find Shepard-types to be tenuous examples at best, considering they are largely what the player themselves shapes them to be over the course of the game. The female Fallout protag is a good example of this. New Vegas especially,
The guy that shoots you in the head at the beginning, if you're female with the Black Widow perk, you have the option of seducing him and then killing him in his sleep. Or you can simply catch him off-guard and kill him, as is the more traditional method.
What's the big difference between femshep and the female fallout protag? Beyond the pre-voiced dialogue, I don't think there's very much.
Not that I oppose getting more women into the industry (the more awesome people there are working on something the better, and I am willing to bet we are missing a lot of awesome people by excluding women), but I don't think simply having women on the team is enough to fight sexism. Most women are sexist. That's how patriarchy works. To solve the issue you need individuals who are aware of the problem and can consider the perspective of different groups of people. Their actual gender is irrelevant.
With that said, it is far more likely that you are going to find women that have a useful perspective on the subject than men who have a similar level of understanding, so it is not a bad place to look. I am just speaking against the idea that hiring women will solve the problem by itself, or that one absolutely HAS to do so and a male writer is doomed to hold to sexist preconceptions all women are automatically free from.
Grey Paladin on
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes to make it possible." - T.E. Lawrence
the dudes that are sexualized are very much in ownership of their sexuality and don't feel exploited
not too many hypersexualized ladies like that except like Bayonetta cause Bayonetta is so good you guys
As much as I harp on the objectification of woman and the lack of objectification of men; Bayonetta never really tripped my warning bells. I know she's brought up a LOT in talks about the subject but, really, her proportions are BIZZARE. She's not a female, she's like a vaguely femalish alien. Any thread about her has lots of guys saying straight out that they don't find her attractive at all because of that exact reason.
Not that I oppose getting more women into the industry (the more awesome people there are working on something the better, and I am willing to bet we are missing a lot of awesome people by excluding women), but I don't think simply having women on the team is enough to fight sexism. Most women are sexist. That's how patriarchy works. To solve the issue you need individuals who are aware of the problem and can consider the perspective of different groups of people. Their actual gender is irrelevant.
With that said, it is far more likely that you are going to find women that have a useful perspective on the subject than men who have a similar level of understanding, so it is not a bad place to look. I am just speaking against the idea that hiring women will solve the problem by itself, or that one absolutely HAS to do so and a male writer is doomed to hold to sexist preconceptions all women are automatically free from.
as folks have said the main solution here is to get more ladies in the business and STEM fields in general
a good way to do this is to make the existing contributions of ladies more visible to break down the perception that technical fields are just for dudes
hashtag number one reason why does a p. good job of increasing visibility, but I feel like it should be balanced with a more positive companion campaign that highlights what ladies in the industry have done, do daily, and can do in the future
that article about how a creepy scenario in dragon age three was avoided is a good example
I'm just curious: Why is the solution to get more women into a certain industry?
I'm not saying equality shouldn't be there, or that they shouldn't be in the industry, or anything. I'm all for breaking down all the barriers and stereotypes and getting rid of sexist perceptions. But why is the end goal "get more women working in an industry" and not "make it as easy or difficult for women to succeed in a given industry than it is for men?"
I mean, if we make the industry a completely non-hostile environment for women, but even with that women in STEM fields levels off a significant level below 50%, isn't that still a victory? If, after the industry was as open as it could be, men were still more interested in women, then so what? At that point the only way to level things off would be to recruit women preferably over men or target women in advertising for the industry, which is still sort of sexist in a quota system type "we need to have X women at our company to not look bad" way.
I think the focus should definitely be kept on "make the industry a more welcoming place" and not "get more women into the industry."
guess what is the best way to make the industry a more welcoming place for ladies
get more ladies in there
why get more ladies in there?
diversity is always better and allows you to look at situations from different perspectives
if the industry was as open as it could be then the gender ratio would likely be a solid 50/50, perhaps slightly leaning towards the ladies since the studies show that they actually do better than dudes in math and science classes in school and the ratio only gets dramatically unbalanced when it comes to college majors and professional work
It would help a lot more if people already in the gaming industry got over their sexist practices; whether they do them consciously or not. Throwing women in the mix guarantees exactly nothing.
Not that I oppose getting more women into the industry (the more awesome people there are working on something the better, and I am willing to bet we are missing a lot of awesome people by excluding women), but I don't think simply having women on the team is enough to fight sexism. Most women are sexist. That's how patriarchy works. To solve the issue you need individuals who are aware of the problem and can consider the perspective of different groups of people. Their actual gender is irrelevant.
With that said, it is far more likely that you are going to find women that have a useful perspective on the subject than men who have a similar level of understanding, so it is not a bad place to look. I am just speaking against the idea that hiring women will solve the problem by itself, or that one absolutely HAS to do so and a male writer is doomed to hold to sexist preconceptions all women are automatically free from.
no one is advocating gender Affirmative Action
It is not about affirmative action, but the idea that women are magically free from sexism and by merely having more the problem is going to disappear. I can't count the number of sexist works that excused themselves through something along the lines of 'our team has X ladies and they said it's fine SO THERE'.
To clarify, I am not sure anyone here is actually saying something along the lines of the first statement (and I certainly hope no one is arguing the latter). I think this is worth saying.
Grey Paladin on
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes to make it possible." - T.E. Lawrence
I don't know about Nintendo, their two main flagship titles, Mario and Legend of Zelda, are based around a male protagonist saving a female damsel. I really wouldn't say Peach, Toadstool, and Zelda are sexualized females, but I would say that getting the girl in the end against overwhelming forces is pretty much a male power fantasy and it portrays the female as helpless next to the antagonist.
One of the reasons Samus getting sexified lately is so irritating.
Pretty much, yeah. People are still shocked to learn that Samus was a woman. Before it was revealed at the end of the original Metroid, people were playing it as a male power fantasy. It was exactly the same, except that it was a powerful character who just happened to be female instead of being a powerful female character, there's a difference.
Another M fucked that up by making her whiney and I have no idea why they did that.
Goddamn I loved the Metroid Prime games. They didn't even really show Samus, but you knew she was a woman from the little touches like noises when being hit, or how her eyes would reflect on the visor when lightning struck.
If your staff has 20 male concept artists and 1 female one, and even 1 of the males drafts up a cleavage baring sexpot and thinks "man, I can't show this to Cindy" and redraws it more modestly, that is EXACTLY WHY having more women in the mix is helpful. It is a means, not an end goal, and can we PLEASE stop arguing against having more women in the industry because of some absolutist bullshit like "it guarantees nothing".
Not that I oppose getting more women into the industry (the more awesome people there are working on something the better, and I am willing to bet we are missing a lot of awesome people by excluding women), but I don't think simply having women on the team is enough to fight sexism. Most women are sexist. That's how patriarchy works. To solve the issue you need individuals who are aware of the problem and can consider the perspective of different groups of people. Their actual gender is irrelevant.
With that said, it is far more likely that you are going to find women that have a useful perspective on the subject than men who have a similar level of understanding, so it is not a bad place to look. I am just speaking against the idea that hiring women will solve the problem by itself, or that one absolutely HAS to do so and a male writer is doomed to hold to sexist preconceptions all women are automatically free from.
no one is advocating gender Affirmative Action
It is not about affirmative action, but the idea that women are magically free from sexism and by merely having more the problem is going to disappear. I can't count the number of sexist works that excused themselves through something along the lines of 'our team has X ladies and they said it's fine SO THERE'.
To clarify, I am not sure anyone here is actually saying something along the lines of the first statement (and I certainly hope no one is arguing the latter). I think this is worth saying.
"No one is saying Statement A, so I think it's worth arguing against Statement A"?
Edit: Sorry to keep hammering this, but I think to have a productive discussion we need to get past the bog of non-issues.
as folks have said the main solution here is to get more ladies in the business and STEM fields in general
a good way to do this is to make the existing contributions of ladies more visible to break down the perception that technical fields are just for dudes
hashtag number one reason why does a p. good job of increasing visibility, but I feel like it should be balanced with a more positive companion campaign that highlights what ladies in the industry have done, do daily, and can do in the future
that article about how a creepy scenario in dragon age three was avoided is a good example
I'm just curious: Why is the solution to get more women into a certain industry?
I'm not saying equality shouldn't be there, or that they shouldn't be in the industry, or anything. I'm all for breaking down all the barriers and stereotypes and getting rid of sexist perceptions. But why is the end goal "get more women working in an industry" and not "make it as easy or difficult for women to succeed in a given industry than it is for men?"
I mean, if we make the industry a completely non-hostile environment for women, but even with that women in STEM fields levels off a significant level below 50%, isn't that still a victory? If, after the industry was as open as it could be, men were still more interested in women, then so what? At that point the only way to level things off would be to recruit women preferably over men or target women in advertising for the industry, which is still sort of sexist in a quota system type "we need to have X women at our company to not look bad" way.
I think the focus should definitely be kept on "make the industry a more welcoming place" and not "get more women into the industry."
guess what is the best way to make the industry a more welcoming place for ladies
get more ladies in there
why get more ladies in there?
diversity is always better and allows you to look at situations from different perspectives
if the industry was as open as it could be then the gender ratio would likely be a solid 50/50, perhaps slightly leaning towards the ladies since the studies show that they actually do better than dudes in math and science classes in school and the ratio only gets dramatically unbalanced when it comes to college majors and professional work
It would help a lot more if people already in the gaming industry got over their sexist practices; whether they do them consciously or not. Throwing women in the mix guarantees exactly nothing.
it sure ain't gonna hurt
I know ladies can be sexist against themselves to but you're not gonna tell me the situation wouldn't be helped considerably in there were more ladies up top making these decisions
If your staff has 20 male concept artists and 1 female one, and even 1 of the males drafts up a cleavage baring sexpot and thinks "man, I can't show this to Cindy" and redraws it more modestly, that is EXACTLY WHY having more women in the mix is helpful. It is a means, not an end goal, and can we PLEASE stop arguing against having more women in the industry because of some absolutist bullshit like "it guarantees nothing".
1) I did not argue that we shouldn't hire more women. My first post in this thread said the opposite - the reason simply differs.
2) The same effect could be achieved by having a man who is not so shallow that he will accept a sexist picture because he think it's hot. This does not means hiring women is not a good thing to do. It is a good thing to do because the more people you can draw on the larger your pool of talent is. It is simply not an effective answer to making games not sexist.
"No one is saying Statement A, so I think it's worth arguing against Statement A"?
Edit: Sorry to keep hammering this, but I think to have a productive discussion we need to get past the bog of non-issues.
If you do not disagree, then why did you argue against said statement?
I do not think pointing out that hiring more women will not end sexism by itself because most women (like most men) are subject to sexist preconceptions is unproductive.
Grey Paladin on
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes to make it possible." - T.E. Lawrence
I don't really get this 47% of gamers are female. what games are they playing? the sims, farmville etc right?. Those are games sure, but when you look at the high exposure games that the industry focuses on, the AAA games and cod fanboys or whatever they might as well not even exist. they are in a completely separate area totally detached from everything else. league of legends has a huge fan base and riot did a survey recently that said only 10% of their users are female.
I don't know about Nintendo, their two main flagship titles, Mario and Legend of Zelda, are based around a male protagonist saving a female damsel. I really wouldn't say Peach, Toadstool, and Zelda are sexualized females, but I would say that getting the girl in the end against overwhelming forces is pretty much a male power fantasy and it portrays the female as helpless next to the antagonist.
One of the reasons Samus getting sexified lately is so irritating.
Pretty much, yeah. People are still shocked to learn that Samus was a woman. Before it was revealed at the end of the original Metroid, people were playing it as a male power fantasy. It was exactly the same, except that it was a powerful character who just happened to be female instead of being a powerful female character, there's a difference.
Another M fucked that up by making her whiney and I have no idea why they did that.
I think the blame for Other M can be laid squarely at Sakamoto's feet. As one of Metroid's 'creators' he got way too much power over everything with way too little control.
Other M was also an attempt to get a larger Japanese audience for Metroid - and if the existence of JRPGs, Metal Gear and visual novels is any indication, Japan likes to have a lot of story cutscenes. Unfortunately, that story then got written by Sakamoto without much in the way of editorial oversight.
So what to do with Metroid? You can't hand the next game to Sakamoto again, because the West hated Other M and Japan cared about as much about it as any other Metroid (meaning: not much). Retro seems to be out of the running for the moment since apparently they're more interested in doing their own thing for now. So I think Nintendo is kind of stuck here.
Which is a shame. If there ever is to be a last Metroid game it should not have been Other M.
We all agree that adding a bunch of women who don't see a problem with female portrayal in games to the game industry wouldn't help.
There.
I hope we can also agree that most women DO see a problem with female portrayal, and thus, adding women to the game industry is incredibly likely to improve the situation.
Edit re: Metroid - Incidentally, Samus' appearance in her military years, had they reduced her bust a bit, was probably the most favorable out-of-suit appearance she's ever made.
Going by the above example, would you say this character [Link] was designed for women?
Link's design isn't that far off you just need to take off his shirt and make him turn into a werewolf.
If you want to know what women find attractive look at Edward and Jacob from Twilight. All sex no substance. Now imagine if those guys were 98% of the male characters in games.
Sure as hell isn't the power fantasy for the player - I certainly don't want to be them. But a lot of ladies scream for these guys so it'd a pretty good analogue to the sex fantasy that most female characters are.
I don't know about Nintendo, their two main flagship titles, Mario and Legend of Zelda, are based around a male protagonist saving a female damsel. I really wouldn't say Peach, Toadstool, and Zelda are sexualized females, but I would say that getting the girl in the end against overwhelming forces is pretty much a male power fantasy and it portrays the female as helpless next to the antagonist.
One of the reasons Samus getting sexified lately is so irritating.
Pretty much, yeah. People are still shocked to learn that Samus was a woman. Before it was revealed at the end of the original Metroid, people were playing it as a male power fantasy. It was exactly the same, except that it was a powerful character who just happened to be female instead of being a powerful female character, there's a difference.
Another M fucked that up by making her whiney and I have no idea why they did that.
I think the blame for Other M can be laid squarely at Sakamoto's feet. As one of Metroid's 'creators' he got way too much power over everything with way too little control.
Other M was also an attempt to get a larger Japanese audience for Metroid - and if the existence of JRPGs, Metal Gear and visual novels is any indication, Japan likes to have a lot of story cutscenes. Unfortunately, that story then got written by Sakamoto without much in the way of editorial oversight.
So what to do with Metroid? You can't hand the next game to Sakamoto again, because the West hated Other M and Japan cared about as much about it as any other Metroid (meaning: not much). Retro seems to be out of the running for the moment since apparently they're more interested in doing their own thing for now. So I think Nintendo is kind of stuck here.
Which is a shame. If there ever is to be a last Metroid game it should not have been Other M.
I've got no problem with delving more into Samus' character and making her more complicated than just bad-ass bounty hunter, but great jacked-up jackalopes Other M was the complete wrong way to do it.
We all agree that adding a bunch of women who don't see a problem with female portrayal in games to the game industry wouldn't help.
There.
I hope we can also agree that most women DO see a problem with female portrayal, and thus, adding women to the game industry is incredibly likely to improve the situation.
Edit re: Metroid - Incidentally, Samus' appearance in her military years, had they reduced her bust a bit, was probably the most favorable out-of-suit appearance she's ever made.
Sure thing, as long as everyone realize it is only the beginning and that simply getting the gaming industry to socially acceptable levels of sexism (what society considers 'okay') shouldn't be the end goal. It is something writers and artists need to constantly think about and strive towards, rather than simply making Things and then asking 'is this okay'?
Grey Paladin on
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes to make it possible." - T.E. Lawrence
+1
Options
KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
Going by the above example, would you say this character [Link] was designed for women?
Link's design isn't that far off you just need to take off his shirt and make him turn into a werewolf.
If you want to know what women find attractive look at Edward and Jacob from Twilight. All sex no substance. Now imagine if those guys were 98% of the male characters in games.
Sure as hell isn't the power fantasy for the player - I certainly don't want to be them. But a lot of ladies scream for these guys so it'd a pretty good analogue to the sex fantasy that most female characters are.
And if you take all the internet screaming about how Edward/Jacob are gaaaaaaaayyyyy as any indication, typical male consumers are pretty uncomfortable with them.
If your staff has 20 male concept artists and 1 female one, and even 1 of the males drafts up a cleavage baring sexpot and thinks "man, I can't show this to Cindy" and redraws it more modestly, that is EXACTLY WHY having more women in the mix is helpful. It is a means, not an end goal, and can we PLEASE stop arguing against having more women in the industry because of some absolutist bullshit like "it guarantees nothing".
It's helpful.
Though, we need more women in general in the industry. That means Art, Writing, Programming, you name it. And then we need to change the general perception of women in games.
Like in this order
More female devs -> more mature/open male devs
But sadly, that alone won't be the end. We'd have to change gamers. And who can change the nature of a gamer?
Well, obvious a change in society but until then it's going to be a while.
Sidenote: We also need more mature and open writers in general. The difference in that special case is sadly faint between the female and male demographic regarding sexisism. And it's more a question of ones ability to tackle certain themes.
We all agree that adding a bunch of women who don't see a problem with female portrayal in games to the game industry wouldn't help.
There.
I hope we can also agree that most women DO see a problem with female portrayal, and thus, adding women to the game industry is incredibly likely to improve the situation.
Edit re: Metroid - Incidentally, Samus' appearance in her military years, had they reduced her bust a bit, was probably the most favorable out-of-suit appearance she's ever made.
like look at the dragon age example
all those guys considered themselves pretty open-minded and progressive about this stuff but they just did not recognize a creepy rape situation, because men are at significantly less risk for such a situation and therefore do not have to think as much about what one looks like
I don't know about Nintendo, their two main flagship titles, Mario and Legend of Zelda, are based around a male protagonist saving a female damsel. I really wouldn't say Peach, Toadstool, and Zelda are sexualized females, but I would say that getting the girl in the end against overwhelming forces is pretty much a male power fantasy and it portrays the female as helpless next to the antagonist.
One of the reasons Samus getting sexified lately is so irritating.
Pretty much, yeah. People are still shocked to learn that Samus was a woman. Before it was revealed at the end of the original Metroid, people were playing it as a male power fantasy. It was exactly the same, except that it was a powerful character who just happened to be female instead of being a powerful female character, there's a difference.
Another M fucked that up by making her whiney and I have no idea why they did that.
I think the blame for Other M can be laid squarely at Sakamoto's feet. As one of Metroid's 'creators' he got way too much power over everything with way too little control.
Other M was also an attempt to get a larger Japanese audience for Metroid - and if the existence of JRPGs, Metal Gear and visual novels is any indication, Japan likes to have a lot of story cutscenes. Unfortunately, that story then got written by Sakamoto without much in the way of editorial oversight.
So what to do with Metroid? You can't hand the next game to Sakamoto again, because the West hated Other M and Japan cared about as much about it as any other Metroid (meaning: not much). Retro seems to be out of the running for the moment since apparently they're more interested in doing their own thing for now. So I think Nintendo is kind of stuck here.
Which is a shame. If there ever is to be a last Metroid game it should not have been Other M.
I've got no problem with delving more into Samus' character and making her more complicated than just bad-ass bounty hunter, but great jacked-up jackalopes Other M was the complete wrong way to do it.
Samus Aran lost her parents to a Space Pirate raid at a young age and then got adopted and raised by the mystical Chozo, who have since left the galaxy, leaving her all alone with a powersuit capable of destroying planets. A largely silent woman of two worlds with multiple genocides on her conscience, her deeds so amazing some people don't even believe she really exists.
And then we get to hear her monologue for twenty hours about what that terrible human being Adam thinks about things.
But I should probably shut up about Other M right now.
Game designers and writers. In fact, I think it is the responsibility of storytellers to shift social norms.
Grey Paladin on
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes to make it possible." - T.E. Lawrence
+2
Options
AxenMy avatar is Excalibur.Yes, the sword.Registered Userregular
I don't think having more women in game development necessarily change anything. Especially if Hollywood is an indicator.
If Hollywood can barely make a movie that has strong female protagonist without her being sexualized in some way then I have little hope that video games will ever be able to pull it off.
Twilight was mentioned earlier and that is a solid example of what I am talking about. It was a movie based on a book by a woman, with a screenplay written by a woman, and was directed by a woman. The main character has less substance then even some of the girls from DOA. She's a by the numbers damsel in distress that can't get through life without a guy (in a movie created by women and for women no less!).
Now granted that is just one example and probably a bit of an extreme one, however it is also an incredibly popular and financially successful example.
All that is really going to happen is, like Hollywood, we'll end up with "guy games" and "chick games". The overall quality of the characters (regardless of which gender created them) will probably remain the same.
I suppose that scenario may not be a vertical improvement, but at the least it'd be a horizontal one.
A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
I don't think having more women in game development necessarily change anything. Especially if Hollywood is an indicator.
If Hollywood can barely make a movie that has strong female protagonist without her being sexualized in some way then I have little hope that video games will ever be able to pull it off.
Twilight was mentioned earlier and that is a solid example of what I am talking about. It was a movie based on a book by a woman, with a screenplay written by a woman, and was directed by a woman. The main character has less substance then even some of the girls from DOA. She's a by the numbers damsel in distress that can't get through life without a guy (in a movie created by women and for women no less!).
Now granted that is just one example and probably a bit of an extreme one, however it is also an incredibly popular and financially successful example.
All that is really going to happen is, like Hollywood, we'll end up with "guy games" and "chick games". The overall quality of the characters (regardless of which gender created them) will probably remain the same.
I suppose that scenario may not be a vertical improvement, but at the least it'd be a horizontal one.
Yes.. But the entire Twilight series can be tldr'd as follows: It's good to have a boyfriend!
Posts
I'm just curious: Why is the solution to get more women into a certain industry?
I'm not saying equality shouldn't be there, or that they shouldn't be in the industry, or anything. I'm all for breaking down all the barriers and stereotypes and getting rid of sexist perceptions. But why is the end goal "get more women working in an industry" and not "make it as easy or difficult for women to succeed in a given industry than it is for men?"
I mean, if we make the industry a completely non-hostile environment for women, but even with that women in STEM fields levels off a significant level below 50%, isn't that still a victory? If, after the industry was as open as it could be, men were still more interested in women, then so what? At that point the only way to level things off would be to recruit women preferably over men or target women in advertising for the industry, which is still sort of sexist in a quota system type "we need to have X women at our company to not look bad" way.
I think the focus should definitely be kept on "make the industry a more welcoming place" and not "get more women into the industry."
not too many hypersexualized ladies like that except like Bayonetta cause Bayonetta is so good you guys
This summarises so much of the men are sexy too thing. They may be physically impressive, but rarely are they the kind of thing people want in bed. Unlike female characters, of which many people would want in bed and are often portrayed as not entirely hating the idea of being in bed with the protagonist.
Oh god, I just posted in a sexism thread, allow me to run for safety now.
Those are virtually the same thing. How can we make the industry a more welcoming place? By eliminating elements that women are averse to. How can we find out what those are? Well, you'll need women for that.
Well Nintendo does this much more than anyone else in the console space, don't they?
The bad thing is that I think that not catering to young males is part of why they get dismissed by a lot of gaming media.
Another piece of why this is a systemic problem is that some of the websites promoting the 1 reasonwhy hashtag don't even have women making content for them. GiantBomb for sure and I think RPS covered this too. And those are websites are far from the dumbest, lowest denominator kinds of sites.
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
This doesn't really seem like that different a situation. They're both personable AI characters who ended up in obviously sexualized forms, EDI's is just more abrupt because it happened all in one go. Mass Effect in general is a pretty good example of female characters that are written well but designed atrociously.
Like #1reasontobe?
guess what is the best way to make the industry a more welcoming place for ladies
get more ladies in there
why get more ladies in there?
diversity is always better and allows you to look at situations from different perspectives
if the industry was as open as it could be then the gender ratio would likely be a solid 50/50, perhaps slightly leaning towards the ladies since the studies show that they actually do better than dudes in math and science classes in school and the ratio only gets dramatically unbalanced when it comes to college majors and professional work
I did not know this existed! that is a good thing
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
I would agree, except Cortana's appearance has changed with every game, becoming more and more sexualised. Hell, load up Halo CE:A and swap between old-style graphics and updated. Yeah she's always had no clothes, but more recent Cortana is absolutely designed to look 'hotter'.
What I'd like to hear is the opinions from the number of women who are high up at 343. I'm also really intrigued to see where Halo 5 goes.
One of the reasons Samus getting sexified lately is so irritating.
I was thinking more about the m/f ratio of people who own/play on DSs and Wiis more than any particular games. Still, I think that Mario at least has a much broader appeal than Call of Duty or DOA: Beach Volleyball. That's a low bar but a bar that the industry has set for itself.
(Please do not gift. My game bank is already full.)
Nintendo seems to have taken that criticism to heart though, they've been very quiet about Metroid since Other M and it feels like they don't really know where to take it from there. they didn't even do anything for the 25th anniversary.
Pretty much, yeah. People are still shocked to learn that Samus was a woman. Before it was revealed at the end of the original Metroid, people were playing it as a male power fantasy. It was exactly the same, except that it was a powerful character who just happened to be female instead of being a powerful female character, there's a difference.
Another M fucked that up by making her whiney and I have no idea why they did that.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
I personally find Shepard-types to be tenuous examples at best, considering they are largely what the player themselves shapes them to be over the course of the game. The female Fallout protag is a good example of this. New Vegas especially,
What's the big difference between femshep and the female fallout protag? Beyond the pre-voiced dialogue, I don't think there's very much.
With that said, it is far more likely that you are going to find women that have a useful perspective on the subject than men who have a similar level of understanding, so it is not a bad place to look. I am just speaking against the idea that hiring women will solve the problem by itself, or that one absolutely HAS to do so and a male writer is doomed to hold to sexist preconceptions all women are automatically free from.
As much as I harp on the objectification of woman and the lack of objectification of men; Bayonetta never really tripped my warning bells. I know she's brought up a LOT in talks about the subject but, really, her proportions are BIZZARE. She's not a female, she's like a vaguely femalish alien. Any thread about her has lots of guys saying straight out that they don't find her attractive at all because of that exact reason.
no one is advocating gender Affirmative Action
It would help a lot more if people already in the gaming industry got over their sexist practices; whether they do them consciously or not. Throwing women in the mix guarantees exactly nothing.
To clarify, I am not sure anyone here is actually saying something along the lines of the first statement (and I certainly hope no one is arguing the latter). I think this is worth saying.
Goddamn I loved the Metroid Prime games. They didn't even really show Samus, but you knew she was a woman from the little touches like noises when being hit, or how her eyes would reflect on the visor when lightning struck.
"No one is saying Statement A, so I think it's worth arguing against Statement A"?
Edit: Sorry to keep hammering this, but I think to have a productive discussion we need to get past the bog of non-issues.
it sure ain't gonna hurt
I know ladies can be sexist against themselves to but you're not gonna tell me the situation wouldn't be helped considerably in there were more ladies up top making these decisions
2) The same effect could be achieved by having a man who is not so shallow that he will accept a sexist picture because he think it's hot. This does not means hiring women is not a good thing to do. It is a good thing to do because the more people you can draw on the larger your pool of talent is. It is simply not an effective answer to making games not sexist.
If you do not disagree, then why did you argue against said statement?
I do not think pointing out that hiring more women will not end sexism by itself because most women (like most men) are subject to sexist preconceptions is unproductive.
Do most women find this attractive? Honest question, I don't know. Are the qualities that women find sexually attractive as predictable as men's?
Going by the above example, would you say this character was designed for women?
I think the blame for Other M can be laid squarely at Sakamoto's feet. As one of Metroid's 'creators' he got way too much power over everything with way too little control.
Other M was also an attempt to get a larger Japanese audience for Metroid - and if the existence of JRPGs, Metal Gear and visual novels is any indication, Japan likes to have a lot of story cutscenes. Unfortunately, that story then got written by Sakamoto without much in the way of editorial oversight.
So what to do with Metroid? You can't hand the next game to Sakamoto again, because the West hated Other M and Japan cared about as much about it as any other Metroid (meaning: not much). Retro seems to be out of the running for the moment since apparently they're more interested in doing their own thing for now. So I think Nintendo is kind of stuck here.
Which is a shame. If there ever is to be a last Metroid game it should not have been Other M.
There.
I hope we can also agree that most women DO see a problem with female portrayal, and thus, adding women to the game industry is incredibly likely to improve the situation.
Edit re: Metroid - Incidentally, Samus' appearance in her military years, had they reduced her bust a bit, was probably the most favorable out-of-suit appearance she's ever made.
Link's design isn't that far off you just need to take off his shirt and make him turn into a werewolf.
If you want to know what women find attractive look at Edward and Jacob from Twilight. All sex no substance. Now imagine if those guys were 98% of the male characters in games.
Sure as hell isn't the power fantasy for the player - I certainly don't want to be them. But a lot of ladies scream for these guys so it'd a pretty good analogue to the sex fantasy that most female characters are.
I've got no problem with delving more into Samus' character and making her more complicated than just bad-ass bounty hunter, but great jacked-up jackalopes Other M was the complete wrong way to do it.
since link doesn't actually refer to a specific person I wouldn't mind him ending up to be a girl at the end of a game.
And if you take all the internet screaming about how Edward/Jacob are gaaaaaaaayyyyy as any indication, typical male consumers are pretty uncomfortable with them.
It's helpful.
Though, we need more women in general in the industry. That means Art, Writing, Programming, you name it. And then we need to change the general perception of women in games.
Like in this order
More female devs -> more mature/open male devs
But sadly, that alone won't be the end. We'd have to change gamers. And who can change the nature of a gamer?
Well, obvious a change in society but until then it's going to be a while.
Sidenote: We also need more mature and open writers in general. The difference in that special case is sadly faint between the female and male demographic regarding sexisism. And it's more a question of ones ability to tackle certain themes.
like look at the dragon age example
all those guys considered themselves pretty open-minded and progressive about this stuff but they just did not recognize a creepy rape situation, because men are at significantly less risk for such a situation and therefore do not have to think as much about what one looks like
Samus Aran lost her parents to a Space Pirate raid at a young age and then got adopted and raised by the mystical Chozo, who have since left the galaxy, leaving her all alone with a powersuit capable of destroying planets. A largely silent woman of two worlds with multiple genocides on her conscience, her deeds so amazing some people don't even believe she really exists.
And then we get to hear her monologue for twenty hours about what that terrible human being Adam thinks about things.
But I should probably shut up about Other M right now.
If Hollywood can barely make a movie that has strong female protagonist without her being sexualized in some way then I have little hope that video games will ever be able to pull it off.
Twilight was mentioned earlier and that is a solid example of what I am talking about. It was a movie based on a book by a woman, with a screenplay written by a woman, and was directed by a woman. The main character has less substance then even some of the girls from DOA. She's a by the numbers damsel in distress that can't get through life without a guy (in a movie created by women and for women no less!).
Now granted that is just one example and probably a bit of an extreme one, however it is also an incredibly popular and financially successful example.
All that is really going to happen is, like Hollywood, we'll end up with "guy games" and "chick games". The overall quality of the characters (regardless of which gender created them) will probably remain the same.
I suppose that scenario may not be a vertical improvement, but at the least it'd be a horizontal one.
And powerful, aware women made a huge difference in Hollywood, even if things are not that great over there.
Yes.. But the entire Twilight series can be tldr'd as follows: It's good to have a boyfriend!