[Dark Souls] Greetings undead warrior, please enjoy your stay and praise the Sun!

The Wolfman

I do wanna aplogogize if that came off kinda dickish. I totally understand the desire to want to stick to the course like that, and the awesome feeling that comes with finally succeeding. I kinda did that in Demon's Souls and archery. But I guess I was also willing to admit defeat and go for the cheapo option, especially on the first play through. I'm proud enough to admit that probably makes me a pussy.

MordaRazgrom

Hey, backing down from a challenge doesn't make one a wuss. I remember in Titan Quest where I had this ridiculous construct that I was fighting, and my build just was NOT working on him, so I cheesed the fight a little bit with some clever kiting and abuse of AI limitations. Sometimes you just reach your breaking point. Certain people don't seem to have one, but it takes courage to admit that you're at yours and proceed to reclaim your sanity

Morninglord

You can put heal in more than one slot? Honestly though I just die to these guys. My weapon has no range and Ornstein has infinite range. I also keep trying to do more than one punch. I keep wanting to hit ornstein multiple times. This gets me killed. I keep telling myself "One is good two is bad" but it feels so good to punch him. So good.

I'm not allowing myself attack spells. This is a punching run. Buffs and heals are ok.

MordaRazgrom wrote: »

Don't want to speak for Morninglord, but I think the magic comes from coming upon a new and un-dissected challenge with what you have and then the feeling of accomplishment that you get through it, regardless of how heavily the odds were stacked against you.

You can say it better than me, so I think you are pretty qualified to speak for me on this one. I'm going to be so happy after I beat these guys. I'm gonna be on cloud nine.

MordaRazgrom

I also applaud you on your quest Morninglord. I love hand-weapons in all games, and I was super excited to get the Dragon Bone Fist, but when I toyed around with it a little bit, and realized just how close I have to get to the enemy, and that I'm going to have to take off the full Havel's Set because I put literally ZERO points into Endurance, so my character walks around over-encumbered always...yeah, I wasn't man enough to try to use the Dragon Bone fist on anything other than the dinky Hollowed Soldiers in Undead Parish for lolz.

Morninglord

I did the same in Demon Souls with the Hand of God.
I was really sad about that and never bothered to make a proper fist build because I had all these better damages to compare to. The temptation is too great to go back to your op stuff. You get really mad when you've killed things easily before. It's natural.
Whereas if you've punched everything in the game to death the first time its all awesome. That was my theory and so far its working out.

Anyway time for another attempt. But first I need to pop back to the bonfire...

edit: It wont let me put heal in a second slot. If I have to buy it again it's useless to me right now.

Amusingly there is a really easy path to get to these guys if you are under 25% equip weight.

You sprint straight through the church doors and leap at the bottom of the steps. This avoids the attacks from the sentinels left and right.
Then you hock a right and hug the wall until you get to the back of the stairwell. There is a pillar right next to the stairs and a tiny gap between the side of the stairwell and that pillar. You sprint through that while listening for the sentinels attack cue. If it goes randomly silent you wanna jump because he's gonna hit ya and jumping will put you past him most of the time.
Then you jink left around the pillar you just squeezed by and head towards the second sentinels right side. When it notices and starts running at you, zag left and do a big circle around it all the way to the left side, then zig back into the entrance. It will try to hit you with something but if you zag left long enough it will miss with everything. As long as you don't stop running you wont get hit by any arrows either.
Then you get a bit of stamina back and sprint the rest of the way to the door.

Bam free Ornstein and smough attempt. They might kill me, but I'm not losing anything.

Honestly if I was losing souls every time I fought them I'd have just burnt them to a crisp with the dragon head stone by now. I know they're weak to fire.

MordaRazgrom

I will say that I did not really do a cookie-cutter character. My dude's over-encumbered, but I focused mainly on Poise (70+), Damage Reduction (full Havel's Set), and Intellect (60+) so that I can stand in one spot, take a few hits while casting a Soul Lance and have that Soul Lance one-shot just about anybody. My second character is definitely more cookie-cutter, I'm actually putting points into Endurance and trying to stay below the encumbrance threshold where your character can still dodge around. It makes for some interesting playstyle...like I actually know what a backstab is now, and have used it...still a no-go for parry, though hehe.

heenato

Morninglord wrote: »

You can put heal in more than one slot?

If you have more than one copy of the spell, yes.

Foolish Chaos

So, at what point does lightning/fire get outclassed by stat scaling weapons?

I've got 16 strength and 40 dex, and my +15 Ricard's rapier is barely better than my +3 lightning estoc. As in, the total damage is very very close.

Morninglord

MordaRazgrom wrote: »

I will say that I did not really do a cookie-cutter character. My dude's over-encumbered, but I focused mainly on Poise (70+), Damage Reduction (full Havel's Set), and Intellect (60+) so that I can stand in one spot, take a few hits while casting a Soul Lance and have that Soul Lance one-shot just about anybody. My second character is definitely more cookie-cutter, I'm actually putting points into Endurance and trying to stay below the encumbrance threshold where your character can still dodge around. It makes for some interesting playstyle...like I actually know what a backstab is now, and have used it...still a no-go for parry, though hehe.

Yeah I had to learn how to get backstabs via running around behind things without locking on in order to live. Ditto for parry. In the Anor Londo area with all the knights it was "parry or die".
I can often backstab invaders for free the first time. They don't seem to expect me to know how to get behind them at first.

Did you know that if you parry an unparryable attack you will actually get full superarmor if the parry was accurate? You'll wave your hand, take the damage, lose some stamina, but you wont get stunned at all. Every now and again this can be useful. Most of the time its not but occasionally bosses have a little fuck off chip attack that is hard to dodge forwards through that will put you in a good position if you can ignore it. Not something I try to make a habit of though.

MordaRazgrom

Playing around with the Hollowed Soldiers, I must say I sat with my mouth agape for a few seconds at just how BRUTAL the parry+riposte of the Dragon Bone Fist was, I mean I think I could actually FEEL noses, teeth, jaws, cheekbones, neck vertebrae just SHATTERING at that assault.

ArcticLancer

If I had a problem with O&S, it was that super-O had better recovery time than I did. It's one thing to note that his spear charges are easy to deal with - I agree - but it felt different when my counter-attack wouldn't phase him, and the recovery would be so slow that he could do much more terrifying things, like his lightning-drop AOE, faster than I could pick my sword back up and move. I did much better with a summoned ally because we could shift his aggro. I don't think I would have gotten past it on my own, honestly. And I hate to say such a thing, because I'm certainly not opposed to brute force, but I couldn't touch the intro portion of that fight without having someone else beside me - attacking was just too punishing.

PLA

Morninglord wrote: »

Morninglord wrote: »

You can put heal in more than one slot? Honestly though I just die to these guys. My weapon has no range and Ornstein has infinite range. I also keep trying to do more than one punch. I keep wanting to hit ornstein multiple times. This gets me killed. I keep telling myself "One is good two is bad" but it feels so good to punch him. So good.

I'm not allowing myself attack spells. This is a punching run. Buffs and heals are ok.

MordaRazgrom wrote: »

Don't want to speak for Morninglord, but I think the magic comes from coming upon a new and un-dissected challenge with what you have and then the feeling of accomplishment that you get through it, regardless of how heavily the odds were stacked against you.

You can say it better than me, so I think you are pretty qualified to speak for me on this one. I'm going to be so happy after I beat these guys. I'm gonna be on cloud nine.

You can put the same specific spell in all ten slots if you have enough of its scrolls. Speaking of spells, how do you feel about costantly draining your own health to make your punching stronger?
Dragonbone actually scales very well with Strength, btw. It can deal plenty of damage. Weapon-buffs are also flat, so quick weapons make better use of them than slow weapons do.
It's the little Dragonbone that could!

Morninglord

Ooooooh.

I just got ornstein down to 1/3rd and I think I can do it again. The standard cestus r2 punch has great recovery. Jabs also. The normal punch has terrible recovery. Absolutely terrible. I'm starting to get the hang of ornstein's weird spear timing too. I'm not getting hit as much as I was before. I didn't die until I ran out of healing.
The trick is to not lock on and keep them both on camera while moving around, then when ornstein does something you dodge slightly to the right or left of him and do the r2 punch, then point the stick towards wherever he is.
I had him do something super annoying though. He started doing a swing, then instantly backdashing, then doing a swing, repeat. I ended up just thinking "Ok ornstein, you are a dick, I get it, I'll just wander off over here come over when you are done being a dick okay? Cool."

Shen

You might want to take a detour to the Catacombs and beat the boss there to get something that allows you up to 20 estus uses.

Also goddamn, you're gonna have a hell of a time in the DLC.

Xagar

Foolish Chaos wrote: »

So, at what point does lightning/fire get outclassed by stat scaling weapons?
1
I've got 16 strength and 40 dex, and my +15 Ricard's rapier is barely better than my +3 lightning estoc. As in, the total damage is very very close.

It is likely better against many enemies right now, because of how damage is calculated. There's some level of increasing returns after you've overcome the enemy's defense. Having a single damage type is very strong. This is also what makes the Furysword and the Moonlight weapons useful at all.

EDIT: I would say that you REALLY, REALLY should go obtain all the copies of Heal and possibly Greater Heal or whatever in the game, along with some green blossoms and charcoal resin. What rings are you using? You could also probably try using Havel's Ring with some heavier armor and possibly the Ring of Favor and Protection to go with your righteous fistication.

Keep at it, beating O&S melee solo is a great experience if you enjoy challenges.

EDIT EDIT: Woah, you don't have 20 estus either? Go get that ability RIGHT NOW.

EDIT EDIT EDIT: Have you actually compared the actual damage the Dragon Bone Fist does against O&S compared to the Divine Cestus? They may have some defenses that make it worse. Also, getting the Large Divine Ember without dying will probably be literally impossible, just so you know.

Morninglord

PLA wrote: »

Morninglord wrote: »

Morninglord wrote: »

You can put heal in more than one slot? Honestly though I just die to these guys. My weapon has no range and Ornstein has infinite range. I also keep trying to do more than one punch. I keep wanting to hit ornstein multiple times. This gets me killed. I keep telling myself "One is good two is bad" but it feels so good to punch him. So good.

I'm not allowing myself attack spells. This is a punching run. Buffs and heals are ok.

MordaRazgrom wrote: »

Don't want to speak for Morninglord, but I think the magic comes from coming upon a new and un-dissected challenge with what you have and then the feeling of accomplishment that you get through it, regardless of how heavily the odds were stacked against you.

You can say it better than me, so I think you are pretty qualified to speak for me on this one. I'm going to be so happy after I beat these guys. I'm gonna be on cloud nine.

You can put the same specific spell in all ten slots if you have enough of its scrolls. Speaking of spells, how do you feel about costantly draining your own health to make your punching stronger?
Dragonbone actually scales very well with Strength, btw. It can deal plenty of damage. Weapon-buffs are also flat, so quick weapons make better use of them than slow weapons do.
It's the little Dragonbone that could!

Divine cestus gains from both strength + dex on top of faith. It's low scaling but its three stats not one. When I ran some numbers in the character planner divine cestus beat dragon bone fist for damage with equal level if you build for it. Although its not at full power until +10. But its still 50 more damage than the dragon bone fist now and the r2 attack is actually really useful instead of funny and kinda crap. It's got good range and recovery.

I tried using power within a few times and it just got me killed faster. I have it there on the secondary slot but actually using it? I don't really think its that good here. I need to hit and away too much so most of the duration is spent watching it kill me.

edit: I appreciate it @Xagar and should I ever break I will go and do these things. However right now I plan to kill them with what I have for the foreseeable future. If I reach my personal skill ceiling and still can't do it I will head off, but I'm not there yet. I'm still getting better each fight. Time for another go.
I appreciate the helping advice guys please don't be offended that I am ignoring it. I think it's all good sensible advice and were I a normal reasonable person about these kinds of things I would go do them all right now.

MordaRazgrom

Power Within is amazing on fights where you have to be stupidly aggressive, like the Gargoyles or the

Four Kings

I actually found Pikachu and Snorlax to be one of those fights where you have to be stupidly aggressive. Berserk charging on Smough and then finding that Ornstein, getting within his personal bubble and stabbing him until he dies worked pretty well.

Edit: Don't forget that the designer of Dark Souls are very well aware of the tried-and-true ARPG mechanics of turtling, getting some potshots, turtling again. With "turtling" being either "hiding behind shield" or "dodging around at a safe distance". A lot of fights you have to try to think beyond that type of strategy. The Gaping Dragon really intimidated me at first, but when I realized that the closer I was to him, the safer I was, he was a pussycat. Many fights require you to let go of your "comfort" tactics and try something new.

The Wolfman

Do you also know that you can use humanity shards as full heals in a pinch? When I first fought those 2, I was doing Super O, but stupidly with a lightning spear. It was a pure battle of attrition, and by the end I was resorting to chewing on humanity candy to keep myself up. So if you've got a decent stockpile, don't be afraid to dip in. They're easy enough to farm.

Foolish Chaos

My strategy with O&S was to just stay as close as possible to Ornstein and poke him whenever I wasn't dodging attacks. Pretty self explanatory! And also to kill Smough second, because super Ornstein is a real asshole!

MordaRazgrom

Ornstein's armor is so much prettier, though!

Foolish Chaos

I knew in my heart of hearts that I wasn't going to get to use that armor anyway. Going for a <25% flipin' run.

I actually don't know how much an improvement the Dark Wood Grain ring gives over the normal dodge, but damn if it isn't fun as hell.

MordaRazgrom

Sinning is so hard for me. I'm the kind of derp that played Grand Theft Auto San Andreas as "legitimate" as possible, no murders or anything. Because of my refusal to willfully perform any "evil" actions I don't think I'll ever experience the joy of the Dark Wood Grain ring, that and the blacksmith hammers or any of the other cool things you get by being "evil", which is, understandably, a pretty fuzzy term in the world of Dark Souls anyway.

fedaykin666

To clarify, Morninglord is not having trouble beating O & S. He is having trouble beating O & S with his bare hands.

I think fist weapons are nerfed compared to Demons' Souls in terms of the way forward roll attack works. I remember Hand of God and certainly the Dragon Cestus were quite safe. You could roll forward and attack in a quick animation and could then roll backwards as well. It's not actually that bad apart from the beginning of the game without the magic or fire damage.

This challenge is therefore probably a lot tougher in Dark Souls where your lack of reach is more meaningful.

MordaRazgrom

Wasn't Demon Souls also limited to only having one weapon? Therefore no matter what you absolutely always had a shield in your offhand? I'm sure that made things a bit easier too, if true.

fedaykin666

That's not true no. You could have Hand of God in one hand and a Dragon Cestus in the other.

Duel-wielding katanas was also a big pvp thing.

PLA

Smough's soul being worth 1 soul from Frampt.

Shen

Foolish Chaos wrote: »

So, at what point does lightning/fire get outclassed by stat scaling weapons?

I've got 16 strength and 40 dex, and my +15 Ricard's rapier is barely better than my +3 lightning estoc. As in, the total damage is very very close.

The second you use a weapon buff on them :P Otherwise +15 ends up being pretty close on enemies with low lightning resistance (most enemies) and significantly higher on enemies with equal physical and lightning resistance. There's a reason generally everyone goes Faith + Dex or CMW.

MordaRazgrom

Gawd I wish they'd release Demon Souls for PC, I'd play it so much, considering how much I've loved Dark Souls. The heartening thing is that Dark Souls 2 will be available for PC from the start, so yay for another 100+ hours per character!

Foolish Chaos

Shen wrote: »

Foolish Chaos wrote: »

So, at what point does lightning/fire get outclassed by stat scaling weapons?

I've got 16 strength and 40 dex, and my +15 Ricard's rapier is barely better than my +3 lightning estoc. As in, the total damage is very very close.

The second you use a weapon buff on them :P Otherwise +15 ends up being pretty close on enemies with low lightning resistance (most enemies) and significantly higher on enemies with equal physical and lightning resistance. There's a reason generally everyone goes Faith + Dex or CMW.

I haven't even touched spell casting yet, and probably won't in this playthrough. Hrm...

APODionysus

Started the DLC area.

Boss right off the bat

That was nice.

fRAWRst

All of the 4 dlc bosses are really well done, particulalry artorias and kalameet. Extremely difficult, very few cheese strats. Just good old mano a mano dodging and punishing.

From Software has won my monster hunting heart.

MordaRazgrom

I want to say that the 1000+ hours I've put into the Monster Hunter franchise has really REALLY helped me in Dark Souls, the strategies are pretty darn similar when you're fighting. Especially appropriate was my Monster Hunter training of when to drink a potion (Estus) and when not to.

Morninglord

I think I need a bit more end. Damn. I'm gonna have to farm the sentinels near the first bonfire for a bit. Damn damn damn I keep running out just when I need a tiny bit more.

Shen

Foolish Chaos wrote: »

Shen wrote: »

Foolish Chaos wrote: »

So, at what point does lightning/fire get outclassed by stat scaling weapons?

I've got 16 strength and 40 dex, and my +15 Ricard's rapier is barely better than my +3 lightning estoc. As in, the total damage is very very close.

The second you use a weapon buff on them :P Otherwise +15 ends up being pretty close on enemies with low lightning resistance (most enemies) and significantly higher on enemies with equal physical and lightning resistance. There's a reason generally everyone goes Faith + Dex or CMW.

I haven't even touched spell casting yet, and probably won't in this playthrough. Hrm...

There's always regular magic weapon using the Oolacile Catalyst, which is +140 or so magic damage off just 12 magic. Or you could buy a lot of gold pine resin for +150 lightning damage when you need that edge.

heenato

Hmmm...what's an interesting dex-based weapon that gets good faith based scaling once it's gone divine? I've got a faith based character, and I want to do something different than big smashy weapons for once.

Shen

heenato wrote: »

Hmmm...what's an interesting dex-based weapon that gets good faith based scaling once it's gone divine? I've got a faith based character, and I want to do something different than big smashy weapons for once.

The Great Scythe is my favourite, especially with its bonus bleed damage.

E: Not sure if it's been mentioned, but Demon's Souls is getting a PSN release!

heenato

Shen wrote: »

heenato wrote: »

Hmmm...what's an interesting dex-based weapon that gets good faith based scaling once it's gone divine? I've got a faith based character, and I want to do something different than big smashy weapons for once.

The Great Scythe is my favourite, especially with its bonus bleed damage.

E: Not sure if it's been mentioned, but Demon's Souls is getting a PSN release!

Yeah. The greatscythe is tempting, but that would mean having to run through the catacombs, which is something I am rather loathe to do. And I don't REALLY know the shortcuts to skipping the entirity of the catacombs.

vagrant_winds

Learn the shortcuts then.
There's like, three of them.

mxmarks

This game is impossible.

I got out of the asylum and have done nothing but die all day.

Once I got kind of far but then a sniper shot me and I died again.

I am not sure if I'm having fun but I'm having...something.

fRAWRst

You shall learn, young padawan. Let your rolls be invincible, your backstabs be lag free, and your day be grossly incandescent.