No. First, get your basics down. Learning to draw the human body might seem terribly irrelevant to you, but it's not. You learn so much about space, shape and form from it, and you'll be able to carry that over to whatever style you ultimately choose. It doesn't help putting it off to some other moment, might as well do it now.
I guess it is a bit of a crutch. I'm willing to experiment. At the very least I could give each of the characters a unique design. Maybe I should go in one of these directions?
I think without a lot of work on the fundamentals, and more understanding of shape and space, your characters are still going to be missing something.
I think a lot of clarification needs to be made here. What are "basics" and "fundamentals" and how does one study them? Its fine and good to tell someone that they need to get back to their basic building blocks, but that doesn't actually really help without providing some indicator as to how that can be accomplished.
To a lot of people, fundamentals means life drawing, still lives, perspective, and technical anatomy knowledge. You don't need to be able to produce da Vinci figure drawings, but you need to be able to render cylinders, cubes, spheres, cones, and pyramids in space, and reliably take those basic building blocks to help you make up new forms.
Still lives are meant to help you begin to do that. If you can draw a cylinder and a sphere, you can draw a wine bottle, or a lemon. As you move forward in complexity, to a human form, you realize that thighs and arms and hands all have rectangles and spheres and cylinders that can be found to aid you in creating structure.
The reason that that stuff is important, is because cartooning is the same. Your ghost guys are flat and have a small range in expression and motion. So, you need to tackle some studies. The type of studies, though, should reflect what you want from your art as a whole.
John K's blog is a great place to learn that cartoon design, and cartooning in general, is an artform that requires its own avenues of study. You probably wont agree with all of his aesthetics, but his advice is sound, and his lessons are a great place to start.
2) Read more comics
Use tumblr and blogspot to get a constant stream of new art coming at you. You want to be on top of whats going on, because that's going to be what inspires you to try new stuff. Having a wide variety of influences will make you more interesting as an artist, don't work in a vacuum.
3)Still lives
I know you said you took some art classes, but observational study is an endless endeavor. I am guilty of forgetting to keep up with it, but you always should be flexing your ability to just draw what you see. Posting work from reference is also some of the most helpful critiques you can gather. When you present someone with a study of something real, even a photo study, we all have a reference point to say where measuring, volume, and lighting is off.
If you start doing this sort of stuff, and posting it, the forums will be a very productive place for you.
Thanks Iruka, that was all very helpful. I guess it can't hurt to get back to some regular art.
The link to that blog is ridiculous and awesome.
What's your opinion on something like starslip crisis.... it seems to be super popular. Just a "talking heads" comic? I should be shooting for a higher caliber of art?
I'm a big fan of Wally Wood's panel guide. He was an amazing artist and you'll see this style of panel come up often. I always notice it when I'm reading PVP.
Thanks Iruka, that was all very helpful. I guess it can't hurt to get back to some regular art.
The link to that blog is ridiculous and awesome.
What's your opinion on something like starslip crisis.... it seems to be super popular. Just a "talking heads" comic? I should be shooting for a higher caliber of art?
This, in my opinion, is where it becomes subjective. I could tell you what I think makes for a high caliber comic, but I like super weird shit like antcomic (which is super NSFW in the weirdest way) and other such trendy, not all that strait forward stuff. You have to decide what "quality" is. Comics that drone on forever with no change or improvement to the art tend to be super boring and have a reader base that is small and unchanging. Personally, I would aspire to something different, but you certainly don't have to.
If you do a talking heads comic, though, the writing should be your primary focus. If both the art and the writing are bland, you have nothing of value to present.
It's super easy to trash what somebody else is doing when you aren't showing anything for yourself and I think that was a fair reply to him, but thanks for insults. Moving on....
I'd suggest you drop the coy attitude. We're all nice people here, and we'd all like to help you, which is why we're posting in your thread. When you start off with an attitude, that does not make you look like a person we're going to take seriously. You may think you're being superior, and that you're just reacting to trolls, but that's not how we work around here. Many of us are professionals, and the way you're acting in this thread does not make it seem like you're mature enough to handle real-world critique. Or to read the rules and respect the fact that you need to abide by them without making snide comments. It is common internet-forum courtesy to read the rules of a forum you're new to, and not to act snarky if you ignore them and a moderator of the community reminds you about them.
If you're asking for artistic critique, that's fine! We love to help people improve. But you need to stop being so snarky.
It's good that you're listening to some of the critiques. However, when you said "the art part is subjective, some people are going to like it and some wont, but there is no denying that I'm falling slightly short on the execution" raises a little red flag to me. While you understand that you're falling short in some way, try not to get pulled into the idea that "if somebody doesn't like this, I don't have to listen to them because art is subjective". Whenever anybody says that, it hints that they might have a mental block against receiving some critiques. Your artwork can improve quite a bit, and at this stage in your artistic development, it would be in your best interest to listen to and consider every piece of criticism you hear. What we are saying and asking of you is entirely valid...we've done this before, been through this same process before, with hundreds of people over the years. Please try to understand that, and adjust your responses accordingly.
We are trying to help you. Please don't develop a hatred for anybody just yet.
You guys need to learn to let sleeping dogs lie. Hes clearly responding well to mine and grifters direct and specific feedback. I realize that we have done a lot of self policing around here, but I'm not going to let you guys all go off the rails on new members because you went back a page and saw some snippy comments.
Grifter and I can easily decide if snark against us is inappropriate and needs infractions. You guys critique and be lovely to one another. A little snark isn't going to hurt you, and I don't think its crazy to be defensive when someone sent him a series of PMs telling him how to act in in the AC, Naked compared his drawings to 3rd graders creations with no context for his tone whatsoever, and in general hes posting his webcomic in a new place for critique and has been met with people just telling him to "show respect"
We are all professional artists, pass out crits not club memberships, Or Im seriously going to lay down the hammer on all of you. Half of the reason I wanted to help mod is to make this place more welcoming, DONT MAKE THIS HARD FOR ME.
Agree with Metalbourne here, but you know, I think this is a step in the right direction. There is more form here and you are working with some new expressions. Not a fan of textures, so the cross sticks out like a sore thumb. Also try to avoid copying and pasting parts of the strip into other panels, it makes it seem sterile and the reader notices things like that. I am referring to Jesus and the cross from panel one and panel three. Also, Jesus's thumbs are on the wrong side.
For a more general crit, I was thinking about Penny Arcade and some things you had said about your strip that I see a lot of artists do. You said that you started drawing your characters like you do originally because of the limitations of your talent. If you look at the first years of the PA archive they don't even really look like the same characters anymore. It's okay to make drastic changes to your character designs as you progress as an artist. Don't feel like you have to keep them because that is what you started with, people will accept change more than you think.
brokecracker on
0
MetalbourneInside a cluster b personalityRegistered Userregular
I think the hands are nailed to the cross backwards.
I disagree with copy-paste. I agree with the third panel being superfluous. If anything, you could put the 3rd panel where the 2nd panel is, to simulate some thinking pause if you will, but the punchline right now is in the 2nd panel.
Another aproach to the same joke would have been NOT to show the cross untill the last panel, making that last panel the punchline. Asking for advice to jesus, then jesus starts to say something, third panel "NOT to get crucified" and showing the full picture, cross included.
I enjoy the art a bit more than before, lightning is all over the place though, as I mentioned before, copy-paste always substracts from a comic in my opinion, unless used as a tool to convey an idea and not just to be lazy.
Yes, with a quick verbal "boom." You take a man's peko, you deny him his dab, all that is left is to rise up and tear down the walls of Jericho with a ".....not!" -TexiKen
Okay geez, I'll flip the hands. Can't believe I did that lol. Silly mistake.
How come a copy paste sticks out so much for me? I see other comics doing it and hardly give it a second thought.
Is the lighting really off? Pretty sure it's always coming from the same direction. Maybe the camera spinning is throwing you off?
I think of the third panel as a "laugh track" .. Encourages the reader. I think it needs it.
You guys sure are a tough audience lol, but I suppose it's really pushing me which is great.
Just because other comics use copy-paste in their material doesn't mean that it's a good technique to use. A lot of artists will see that in comics and automatically think that the creator was being lazy. I've seen PVP use copy-paste between panels in the past and Penny-Arcade too. Unless it's being used to emphasize something, it's generally frowned upon. You're only making three panels. You should be able to draw every one of those and not take up an entire day's work.
I dunno, I enjoyed the simple art more. It actually appeared to be a choice rather than a restriction to me. But seing the latest one, I think I was wrong. As much as I prefered the simple art, its obvious you could make a lot of improvements. I would continue doing the simple style, while drawing A LOT on the side to improve, then slowly start leaking those improvements into the comic.
As for the writing, that last one fell flat to me. Like, I get why it could work, but it just doesn't for me. Hiding the reveal of the crucification might help, but I dunno.
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NakedZerglingA more apocalyptic post apocalypse Portland OregonRegistered Userregular
Nope sir..i was asking that as a serious question. I honestly though "sperm" at first. Then looking at the bottom, i thought the look like the ghost you make by wadding up 2 tissues, putting them in the center of another, twisting them, then putting eyes on with a sharpie. That would almost make the comic BETTER (or at least pretty unique) if you were actually going for that type of ghost. But i'm partial to wanting to build mini sets and scenes.
I'm really curious about the humor. I read this thread yesterday and half way down the first page, I guess to about where you told off Zerg, I thought the whole thread was an elaborate gag (no offense intended). But now that it is clearly evident that this is not the case, I'd like to understand your writing process. Because regardless of how well you draw, a comic must be written well to carry any weight IMO.
Although some attention was paid by others who offered helpful suggestions like speaking or acting your jokes out. I feel like its time to revisit, so as to keep stride with your drawing which is already improving.
Could you explain in detail the process you use to write, and edit?
You don't think the last one was funny at all? I thought it was funny. Meh I tired.
Uh. I start off with a pen and paper. Draw until something comes to me. Try to plan out a joke based on that idea. Think I find something workable. Begin to absolutely hate my original idea and start reading calvin and hobbes or another webcomic for inspiration. Come up with another idea, start hating it a few minutes later. Start drawing out the panels. Get the strip pretty much finished. After I add the words I feel like its not as funny as what I wrote a few hours ago. Work with the text and frames until I think I find something workable. That's pretty much it.
I really am trying to produce something good here. Having a lot of trouble with the 3 panel formula I guess.
Guess all i can do is keep trying.
antleonardi01 on
0
amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
You don't think the last one was funny at all? I thought it was funny. Meh I tired.
Uh. I start off with a pen and paper. Draw until something comes to me. Try to plan out a joke based on that idea.
This is backwards... It's a HUGE pain in the ass and no cartoonists do it early on, but you should always try to have your comic fully scripted before you start drawing it.
You said you look to other comics for inspiration, you should really watch the live streams from Kurtz, Mike, Kris, and the others you admire and see how they do their comics. They've always got them written out first and will place the word balloons and text before they ever start drawing.
Mike doesn't even pick up his tablet until he and Jerry have written the strip, same goes for Scott and Kris.
Personally, I thumbnail, and I know there are other artists that don't go at it from a strict, script writing work flow. The point is more to have a way to get out your ideas quickly, and not be married to them before you have a chance to move stuff around.
Are you planning to do some studies/master copies? Because that is what I'm the most excited to see.
it would be nice to see some studies, even if you have to do them digitally. Try to apply them directly to you characters as you learn. Even the most simple cartoons have a basic under structure
This is whats going to help you gain an understanding of form, so that you can manipulate that enough to make expressions. You wont have to draw a skeleton every time you draw your character, but it will certainly help.
Also dont throw your characters hands our of frame for no reason, and dont be afraid to make them interact. You need everything you can get to sell your joke. You could probably drastically reduce the amount of text in the first bubble.
I'm on my way to the gym, but before that I did these. It's been a long time since I've drawn from a reference and these took WAY long than expected. I plan to draw all of the classic cartoon stuff from that site you gave me Iruka, but I just wanted to post these to show you that I'm willing to do the studies and that you aren't wasting your time helping me. Thanks.
antleonardi01 on
+1
Dhalphirdon't you open that trapdooryou're a fool if you dareRegistered Userregular
Posts
I think without a lot of work on the fundamentals, and more understanding of shape and space, your characters are still going to be missing something.
Uncanny Magazine!
The Mad Writers Union
To a lot of people, fundamentals means life drawing, still lives, perspective, and technical anatomy knowledge. You don't need to be able to produce da Vinci figure drawings, but you need to be able to render cylinders, cubes, spheres, cones, and pyramids in space, and reliably take those basic building blocks to help you make up new forms.
Still lives are meant to help you begin to do that. If you can draw a cylinder and a sphere, you can draw a wine bottle, or a lemon. As you move forward in complexity, to a human form, you realize that thighs and arms and hands all have rectangles and spheres and cylinders that can be found to aid you in creating structure.
The reason that that stuff is important, is because cartooning is the same. Your ghost guys are flat and have a small range in expression and motion. So, you need to tackle some studies. The type of studies, though, should reflect what you want from your art as a whole.
So my suggestions:
1) Master Copies
Not Da Vinci, but Golden age cartoons.
http://johnkstuff.blogspot.com/2006/05/animation-school-lesson-1-construction.html
John K's blog is a great place to learn that cartoon design, and cartooning in general, is an artform that requires its own avenues of study. You probably wont agree with all of his aesthetics, but his advice is sound, and his lessons are a great place to start.
2) Read more comics
Use tumblr and blogspot to get a constant stream of new art coming at you. You want to be on top of whats going on, because that's going to be what inspires you to try new stuff. Having a wide variety of influences will make you more interesting as an artist, don't work in a vacuum.
3)Still lives
I know you said you took some art classes, but observational study is an endless endeavor. I am guilty of forgetting to keep up with it, but you always should be flexing your ability to just draw what you see. Posting work from reference is also some of the most helpful critiques you can gather. When you present someone with a study of something real, even a photo study, we all have a reference point to say where measuring, volume, and lighting is off.
If you start doing this sort of stuff, and posting it, the forums will be a very productive place for you.
The link to that blog is ridiculous and awesome.
What's your opinion on something like starslip crisis.... it seems to be super popular. Just a "talking heads" comic? I should be shooting for a higher caliber of art?
This, in my opinion, is where it becomes subjective. I could tell you what I think makes for a high caliber comic, but I like super weird shit like antcomic (which is super NSFW in the weirdest way) and other such trendy, not all that strait forward stuff. You have to decide what "quality" is. Comics that drone on forever with no change or improvement to the art tend to be super boring and have a reader base that is small and unchanging. Personally, I would aspire to something different, but you certainly don't have to.
If you do a talking heads comic, though, the writing should be your primary focus. If both the art and the writing are bland, you have nothing of value to present.
I'd suggest you drop the coy attitude. We're all nice people here, and we'd all like to help you, which is why we're posting in your thread. When you start off with an attitude, that does not make you look like a person we're going to take seriously. You may think you're being superior, and that you're just reacting to trolls, but that's not how we work around here. Many of us are professionals, and the way you're acting in this thread does not make it seem like you're mature enough to handle real-world critique. Or to read the rules and respect the fact that you need to abide by them without making snide comments. It is common internet-forum courtesy to read the rules of a forum you're new to, and not to act snarky if you ignore them and a moderator of the community reminds you about them.
If you're asking for artistic critique, that's fine! We love to help people improve. But you need to stop being so snarky.
It's good that you're listening to some of the critiques. However, when you said "the art part is subjective, some people are going to like it and some wont, but there is no denying that I'm falling slightly short on the execution" raises a little red flag to me. While you understand that you're falling short in some way, try not to get pulled into the idea that "if somebody doesn't like this, I don't have to listen to them because art is subjective". Whenever anybody says that, it hints that they might have a mental block against receiving some critiques. Your artwork can improve quite a bit, and at this stage in your artistic development, it would be in your best interest to listen to and consider every piece of criticism you hear. What we are saying and asking of you is entirely valid...we've done this before, been through this same process before, with hundreds of people over the years. Please try to understand that, and adjust your responses accordingly.
We are trying to help you. Please don't develop a hatred for anybody just yet.
Grifter and I can easily decide if snark against us is inappropriate and needs infractions. You guys critique and be lovely to one another. A little snark isn't going to hurt you, and I don't think its crazy to be defensive when someone sent him a series of PMs telling him how to act in in the AC, Naked compared his drawings to 3rd graders creations with no context for his tone whatsoever, and in general hes posting his webcomic in a new place for critique and has been met with people just telling him to "show respect"
We are all professional artists, pass out crits not club memberships, Or Im seriously going to lay down the hammer on all of you. Half of the reason I wanted to help mod is to make this place more welcoming, DONT MAKE THIS HARD FOR ME.
Now we sit here as one of the least traveled forums on this board.
Sorry guys. I fucked up.
@antleonardi01 Do some studies, post them, and stick around. I hope to see some interesting development from you soon.
I won't disappoint.
I laughed at it though.
For a more general crit, I was thinking about Penny Arcade and some things you had said about your strip that I see a lot of artists do. You said that you started drawing your characters like you do originally because of the limitations of your talent. If you look at the first years of the PA archive they don't even really look like the same characters anymore. It's okay to make drastic changes to your character designs as you progress as an artist. Don't feel like you have to keep them because that is what you started with, people will accept change more than you think.
And I agree about the hands being backwards; I noticed it right away.
Uncanny Magazine!
The Mad Writers Union
Another aproach to the same joke would have been NOT to show the cross untill the last panel, making that last panel the punchline. Asking for advice to jesus, then jesus starts to say something, third panel "NOT to get crucified" and showing the full picture, cross included.
I enjoy the art a bit more than before, lightning is all over the place though, as I mentioned before, copy-paste always substracts from a comic in my opinion, unless used as a tool to convey an idea and not just to be lazy.
How come a copy paste sticks out so much for me? I see other comics doing it and hardly give it a second thought.
Is the lighting really off? Pretty sure it's always coming from the same direction. Maybe the camera spinning is throwing you off?
I think of the third panel as a "laugh track" .. Encourages the reader. I think it needs it.
You guys sure are a tough audience lol, but I suppose it's really pushing me which is great.
Just because other comics use copy-paste in their material doesn't mean that it's a good technique to use. A lot of artists will see that in comics and automatically think that the creator was being lazy. I've seen PVP use copy-paste between panels in the past and Penny-Arcade too. Unless it's being used to emphasize something, it's generally frowned upon. You're only making three panels. You should be able to draw every one of those and not take up an entire day's work.
It's super slow going though. I have to draw out cubes to figure out perspective even for simple objects lol.
I'll see if I can really push diversity and movements on the next one.
As for the writing, that last one fell flat to me. Like, I get why it could work, but it just doesn't for me. Hiding the reveal of the crucification might help, but I dunno.
If you are interested here's my thread. Crit all you want on it, i never turn down a good crit. http://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/81046/pretty-big-update-old-and-new#latest
I still havenet seen where it says they're ghosts, but yes, the stock images you pulled are way more expressive.
Totally agree that it would be cool to make a comic with actual tissue ghosts, but that is for somebody else to do. I quite like trying to illustrate.
Lol ... the hands. I was looking at my left palm drawing his right hand and uh ... well you know how these things happen.
Ps. Some of your art is quite amazing Zergling
Although some attention was paid by others who offered helpful suggestions like speaking or acting your jokes out. I feel like its time to revisit, so as to keep stride with your drawing which is already improving.
Could you explain in detail the process you use to write, and edit?
Uh. I start off with a pen and paper. Draw until something comes to me. Try to plan out a joke based on that idea. Think I find something workable. Begin to absolutely hate my original idea and start reading calvin and hobbes or another webcomic for inspiration. Come up with another idea, start hating it a few minutes later. Start drawing out the panels. Get the strip pretty much finished. After I add the words I feel like its not as funny as what I wrote a few hours ago. Work with the text and frames until I think I find something workable. That's pretty much it.
I really am trying to produce something good here. Having a lot of trouble with the 3 panel formula I guess.
Guess all i can do is keep trying.
This is backwards... It's a HUGE pain in the ass and no cartoonists do it early on, but you should always try to have your comic fully scripted before you start drawing it.
You said you look to other comics for inspiration, you should really watch the live streams from Kurtz, Mike, Kris, and the others you admire and see how they do their comics. They've always got them written out first and will place the word balloons and text before they ever start drawing.
Mike doesn't even pick up his tablet until he and Jerry have written the strip, same goes for Scott and Kris.
Are you planning to do some studies/master copies? Because that is what I'm the most excited to see.
Also you should plan your stuff out before you really get drawing. It will help speed up the process and probably net you better results.
I have been! Only in a sketchbook so far though. Don't have a way to post it unless I start doing them in photoshop.
This is whats going to help you gain an understanding of form, so that you can manipulate that enough to make expressions. You wont have to draw a skeleton every time you draw your character, but it will certainly help.
Also dont throw your characters hands our of frame for no reason, and dont be afraid to make them interact. You need everything you can get to sell your joke. You could probably drastically reduce the amount of text in the first bubble.
I would read a comic regularly with this kind of humour quality - I really enjoyed it, and liked the topical humour reference.