Starting a new D&D Campaign

Lastweek

Hey everyone!

Just a quick intro then I'll move along. Been reading PA since the Sin Load Level and have been really inactive in the forums since they started. Mostly just looking at art and PAX stuff. Anyway, hello!

So we have a group of friends that want to start a D&D Campaign. I have played 3.5 in the past while the others haven't really played past character creation. There are also some new people playing who are also new to the tabletop community altogether. What edition do you think would be the best to start them on? I was thinking 4 or maybe 2 with adventures. So there's question one.

Question two, what campaign do you think would be best to start them on? I was thinking Kyders Harvest or Shadowfell. But I'm unsure if those would really keep absolutely new players interested.

Thanks for any advice

Assuran

I'm partial to 4th Edition myself.

Keep on the Shadowfell is pretty good if you end it with the Super Kobald and ignore everything afterwords.

Otherwise, the new adventures from the DM kit is a really good adventure if you have it.

Vincent Grayson

I'm partial to introducing the game with some sample roleplaying and then using something like the Dungeon Delve book (which features small groups of encounters, by level) to get them used to the combat.

Sakutian

I really like 4th Edition, but that was the one that I started with so I am biased.

Keep on the Shadowfell is solid but I always find the official adventures to be awfully combat heavy. Depending on the players they may lose interest fighting encounter after encounter. I have been wanting to get my hands on Halls of Undermountain and that seems like it would be pretty ideal for what you're planning here. It comes with the maps and everything you need to run a classic dungeon charge but you can customize it to fit the length you want. Hope that helps.

When I GM the premade adventures don't really hold my interest so I make my own up.

italianranma

Hey brother,

As far as editions go, here are a few things that I'd think about. First, what are the preferences around the table? If most players are opposed to one edition or the other, it'll be a moot point. The second to think about is what resources do you have on hand, and how much are you willing to invest in a good time? Finally, how often will you all meet up, etc.

I've played and DM'd 2nd - 4th edition, and my favorite edition so far has been 4th hands down. Still 4th I think had a bit of a rocky start especially with regard to certain classes, powers, and monster design. A single D&D insider subscription will resolve a lot of this for you, and isn't very expensive, especially if you friends are willing to share costs. 4th edition's design also assumes that you use a grid and minis. The cheapest way to do this is with a wet erase mat and to make your own counters using 1 inch square poster board and pasting 1 inch pictures that you find on the internet.

You can visit the 4th edition thread (and the D&D Next discussion thread) to hear more about how great it's design is, but as for some highlights I think that the rules are very clearly explained and are consistent throughout the game. Additionally the DMG is really good at teaching new DMs how to DM.

Now you said that your friends want to play D&D, but if you aren't dead-set on a WOTC product, there are many other tabletop games out there that are really fun, and offer different things. If your players are partial to wargaming, they might want to play one of the RPG offshoots of warhammer or war machine. I've heard really great things about 13th age (especially with regard to new players). In short, there are a lot of options out there competing for your time. I'd head toward a FLGS with your group and browse through a few books, maybe even take them for a spin, and then decide from there.

Farangu

Yea, it really depends on what your group wants to do. I've had the best experience teaching D&D with 4e, as it just streamlined a bunch of things that might have been obtuse to newer players, of which it seems that is the majority of your group.

If you've had any experience DM'ing in the past, I would say to make up a brief adventure that lets your group sample a bit of everything - NPC interaction, skill challenges, a light puzzle or two, a trap, and a combat. This way it's not an interest-killing length of time (an hour, maybe 1.5 tops for a small adventure with one or two of everything I just listed) for the new people so they can see the highlights of D&D, and for the other players it does a nice job of showing some of the differences between 3.5 and 4. If you haven't DM'ed before, then I would go with Assuran's advice - Keep on the Shadowfell up to that certain point.

Mikey CTS

If you have wargamers in your group I can't recommend enough the Iron Kingdoms RPG from Privateer Press. There is very little as satisfying as having your own personal steam-powered robot to send charging into battle. The rules are simple and the character creation is engaging and balanced. About 3/4ths of the book is setting fluff while the actual rules are easy to grasp. It's was just published this year so there isn't a massive backlog you'll need to catch up on and every other month they publish more support material in their No Quarter magazine, if you're into that sort of thing. They have a healthy bestiary available online for free online amnd a free sample adventure with pre-built characters so you and your group can try it out. The first full supplement, Urban Adventures, hits shelves this week. I've sat in on a few games and loved it. I will be starting my own campaign in January after the holidays are over.

bss

On the D&D front, I would highly recommend 4e over the others. Its design goals focus on every option and character build being equally viable, and for the most part it succeeds. It's also, and I cannot stress this enough, by far the easiest edition to DM.

Along the lines of what others are saying, if you're not married to the D&D brand, worthwhile games from very agreeable groups/companies include Iron Kingdoms and Dungeon World. I have to give particular shoutouts to two D&D-likes I've enjoyed, 13th Age and Rule of Cool's Legend. They work kind of like 3e/4e hybrids and may help your table if there are insurmountable biases in play. All four of the games, though, take at least some conceptual inspiration from D&D 4e, and by all accounts are worth a look.

Lastweek

Thanks a bunch guys for the advice. I think they are partial to D&D just for the sake of it being D&D, but I completely agree that they may enjoy something else at first. I was hoping for a cyberpunk or war game to start, but we'll see. I want to write my own campaign no matter which one I choose. May start them off with a quick campaign to get it started. I'll head down to my GS and grab some books and bring them home, and at our first meeting have everyone look and read through them. It will be a weekly Wednesday meeting.

Thanks for the advice everyone, very helpful

Mikey CTS

Well... there is Shadowrun. But be warned, that is a gamer's game. It is fantastic. One of the best RPG settings devised. But the rules system is designed for people already familiar with if not experts at games. I would never recommend it for new players.

Infidel

If you want familiar 3rd edition but slightly better working and less stale, try Pathfinder.

For official D&D, 4th edition is imo the clear winner.

Everyone I see that is currently happy running "D&D" is running one of those.

There are quite a few alternatives coming around nowadays though, but I am not really able to comment on those much.

DevoutlyApathetic

Infidel wrote: »

If you want familiar 3rd edition but slightly better working and less stale, try Pathfinder 13th Age.

For official D&D, 4th edition is imo the clear winner.

Everyone I see that is currently happy running "D&D" is running one of those.

There are quite a few alternatives coming around nowadays though, but I am not really able to comment on those much.

Fixed that for you.

dresdenphile

After we ran Shadowfell initially with our 4E group, we ran Heathen, which has a decent length and a little more RPing opportunities than what Shadowfell had.

Lastweek

Ok so we'll run 4E. Sounds like it will be the best to start some new people on. Now what campaign would you suggest? I would like to try Heathen with them.

Mikey CTS

If you want to run Heathen you should just play in the core Points of Light campaign setting. It's actually pretty solid.

italianranma

I never ran any modules, so I have no advice for you there. The points of light setting though brilliant in it's simplicity, and perfect for improvising.

One thing that's always tough for new groups (and somewhat grating on me) is the first meeting between all the members. It can get awkward when players create their characters in a vacuum and show up to the table with Sir Huntington the Drow Killer, and one of the party members is a Drizz't clone. I've solved this problem before by having all the players create their characters together.

I just finished skimming the 13th Age pre-release .pdf and I'm very impressed with it. Part of the character creation process is choosing One Unique Thing about your character. The examples that they had were things like "I'm the only Halfling Knight of the Dragon Emporer." "I'm the only acrobat that performed her way out of the Diabloist's Circus of Hell." or "I have a clockwork heart made by dwarves." Besides being cool, these kinds of statements give you easy purchase for affixing plot hooks, and can work to expand the world. Having the players take on parts of the creative process is key to not burning yourself out too early.

Oricalm

italianranma wrote: »

One thing that's always tough for new groups (and somewhat grating on me) is the first meeting between all the members. It can get awkward when players create their characters in a vacuum and show up to the table with Sir Huntington the Drow Killer, and one of the party members is a Drizz't clone. I've solved this problem before by having all the players create their characters together.

Something I did with regards to character creation that actually worked surprisingly well (and I think was an idea I got from one of the other threads here) was having the players make each other's characters. I.E. Player A makes Player B's character and player B make's player A's character. Granted, there's room for abuse and being a jerk, but my group of normally goosey players actually made the most effective/cohesive group I've ever seen them make when we did it this way. It also meant that they challeneged each other to do something new (i.e. the guy who always made the elf ranger was suddenly an undead knight or something like that)

Sakutian

Oricalm wrote: »

Something I did with regards to character creation that actually worked surprisingly well (and I think was an idea I got from one of the other threads here) was having the players make each other's characters. I.E. Player A makes Player B's character and player B make's player A's character. Granted, there's room for abuse and being a jerk, but my group of normally goosey players actually made the most effective/cohesive group I've ever seen them make when we did it this way. It also meant that they challeneged each other to do something new (i.e. the guy who always made the elf ranger was suddenly an undead knight or something like that)

That is such a great idea. It isn't something I'd want to employ in a long running game but for a shorter campaign it seems like great fun.

RiemannLives

Lastweek wrote: »

Ok so we'll run 4E. Sounds like it will be the best to start some new people on. Now what campaign would you suggest? I would like to try Heathen with them.

The 4th Ed. Dark Sun setting is pretty fantastic but is also quite different in theme from classic D&D. It is very focused on survival in a harsh wasteland kind of envrionment.

Eberron is also great and has an excellent low level adventure in "Seekers of the Ashen Crown" (it starts for level 2 characters but you can get there from the adventure in the Campain Guide or something you roll on your own for an intro). Eberron is more focused on fast paced high adventure with lots of fantastic elements and a tiny bit of steampunkyness thrown in.

The "Nentir Vale" setting is suprisingly good as well. It just maps out a small area and leaves a lot of open room to add on your own stuff. Keep on the Shadowfell and the adventure in the back of original 4th ed DMG is based there (which is a fun little adventure). Just download a PDF of that one though as you don't need the orignal DMG anymore. Just get the Essentials: Rules Compendium and Essentials: Dungeon Masters Kit.

Another intro adventure set in Nentir Vale is "Reavers of Harkenwold" which comes in the Dungeon Masters Kit. Although I haven't run that one (and I have run Keep on the Shadowfell) from reading through it I think it should be fun.

btw: with regards to books. There is the whole "essentials" thing to think about with regards to 4th ed. Now this was not a new edition like 3.5 was or 2nd Ed Skills and Powers. It is backwards compatable. I think the Essentials books are also easier to read and use in play for looking up rules and the like. Even when Essentials brought in new versions of a class they don't replace the old one just add new options. What you'll want to consider getting:

Rules Compendium: This has all the game rules and how to play. It contains content that used to be in the Players Handbook and Dungeon Masters Guide. But it doesn't have the stuff for rolling up new characters.

Dungeon Master's Kit: A book with all the stuff from previous Dungeon Masters Guide about planning adventures and campaigns. Also contains the adventure "Reavers of Harkenwold". Comes with a few big maps and monster counters too.

Monster Vault: A book with stats for monsters in the level 1-20 range. These are updated compared to the older Monster Manual with regards to their stats. What is nice is it also contains color cardbard counters for every single monster in the book (and multiples for most of them that come in groups like goblins). I really like the counters that come with this.


you will also need one or more books that contain the info on how to roll up characters. There are a few options here. You can definetly pick up the original 4th ed Players Handbook. However you could also consider the Essentials books "Heroes of Fallen Lands" and "Heroes of Forgotten Kingdoms". The essentials classes generally are simpler to play (have fewer choices, and fewer things to keep track of during play). I kind of prefer the older classes in the Players Handbook though I think the essentials ones would be better for new players.

bss

Indeed, the Rules Compendium is pretty much the #1 book to have at the table. Even if you're not playing "an Essentials game", it's the definitive source for how to play 4e, and has the updated rulings since the release of the PHB. The DMK is cool, but if you only want books and aren't limited by budget, there's more stuff in the combined DMG and DMG2 than the DMK. On the other hand, a lot of the DMG needs asterisks and "WARNING: errataed" tags so maybe you're just better off getting the DMK, and the DMG2 for more soft advice (the chapter by Robin D. Laws is great).

RiemannLives

the DMK does come with a nice full length adventure as well though.

bss

Ah, fair enough. I tend to skim adventures, at best, and steal the interesting parts, so I hadn't dealt with it. Doesn't the DMG1 have a weird proto-adventure or something in the back? Fallcrest?

RiemannLives

bss wrote: »

Ah, fair enough. I tend to skim adventures, at best, and steal the interesting parts, so I hadn't dealt with it. Doesn't the DMG1 have a weird proto-adventure or something in the back? Fallcrest?

the DMG1 does have a good description of Netir Vale and Fallcrest. Also a damn good mini-dungeon with a suprise ending. It was a very good intro to 4th ed when it came out.

Lastweek

So after reading over and looking at the books I chose Pathfinder. Character creation was fun and interesting. It was just in-depth enough. So know we are looking at campaigns. I want to start them off with Carrion Crown. But also want to do a night of non-campaign to get the new guys really into it and have them start learning. Any ideas on a short set-up and encounter that we may be able to use?

Mikey CTS

Character creation for PF was fun? I always found chargen for 3.X (PF included) to be like pulling teeth. I suppose as a players its fine, but as a DM having to do that over and over to make encounters was a pain. To each their own.

Infidel

Not familiar with PF modules so no advice there.

However, if you mean non-campaign as in "this doesn't count" sort of deal, I recommend against that. It is definitely ideal to do something railed and straightforward, and only an encounter or two, to get people introduced to the game. But you should make it actually very much part of the story and expose a lot of setting.

Getting people interested and hooked on the story the first session is (a) good for longevity and interest and (b) a good time to lay it out thick and let people ask questions, because you're not getting too heavy in the mechanical/game areas yet.

Let the characters make or reinforce bonds, get rolling on something trivial gameplay-wise but not trivial story-wise.