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A Discussion About [Alcohol and Drug Usage]

2

Posts

  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Slider wrote: »
    Do any of you drink to help yourself sleep?

    I have noticed that if I kick back a few, it relaxes me and makes me very sleepy.

    Getting sleepy after alcohol is perfectly normal. Using it as a sleeping aid is really not a good idea. As in, alcoholics often start that way.

  • ShivahnShivahn Unaware of her barrel shifter privilege Eastern coastal temptressRegistered User regular
    TehSpectre wrote: »
    That is not the same at all.

    Methadone is also not meth.


    Edit: For clarification, not the same as in lab created stuff like ADHD medication is safe as long as you take it in the reccommended doses. Synthesized meth made by a junkie/dealer has all sorts of shit in it that can kill you, sometimes fast, sometimes slow.

    There aren't a lot of Heisenbergs out there.

    I am not sure if I was clear. You can literally get methamphetamine from a doctor, the big thing is that it's pure (as you said), low dose, and taken orally. It is extremely close, chemically, and effectively, to amphetamine, which is prescribed pretty regularly for ADHD.

    It's not really the drug that's a problem, it's the impurities and the cutting, as you say.

    TehSpectre
  • ShivahnShivahn Unaware of her barrel shifter privilege Eastern coastal temptressRegistered User regular
    Oh shit I see. Yeah, I agree completely, never mind.

    TehSpectre
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited December 2012
    Assigning moral / ethical values to consumable substances is goofy. So, instead of worrying about whether it's morally permissible to drink, it's far more reasonable to discern the actual health / experiential impact of particular substances and then assess whether those impacts are beneficial or detrimental to one's well-being, given one's particular goals / intents for one's self.

    For example, there are some studies that suggest red wine has health benefits. This does not mean that everyone ought to drink wine, but rather there are some benefits to be considered, other than taste / mood-alteration, when one decides whether or not to consume wine.

    Other substances seem to not offer those same health benefits. Rather, they cause alterations to one's mental state. When we assess these, we need to weigh one's concerns for bodily well-being as opposed to those emotive / mental feelings of pleasure.

    Personally, I quite enjoy getting shitfaced drunk. But I discerned that repeatedly getting shitfaced drunk was not beneficial overall, given my other goals, and so I decreased the frequency of my getting shitfaced drunk. I also enjoy smoking cigars, but given the financial cost of good cigars, and the concerns for various cancers, I only smoke about one cigar every three months. If I had a terminal disease and was scheduled to die quite soon, I would probably increase my cigar consumption to one every half hour or so.

    That, to me, seems like the most sensible way to assess drugs / alcohol. List the costs, list the benefits, and then compare the two columns. If a glass of red wine is, overall, a net gain in benefits with moderate to no costs? Have at it. If meth is, overall, a net loss in benefits then don't do meth.

    It's like anything else one puts into their body, or does with their body. Treating drugs / alcohol as qualitatively different than fast food or cola or carrots seems strange, given that it's all just shit one ingests.

    _J_ on
    MadCaddy
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Shivahn wrote: »
    TehSpectre wrote: »
    Probably shouldn't legalize it all.

    Though "I'm running down to the drug store to grab some cherry meth" does have a ring to it

    You can get meth prescribed from a doctor. Most won't because they don't want you selling it though.

    About half of the drugs prescribed for ADHD end up becoming amphetamine, which is methamphetamine without a methyl group.

    Not that that means much, but I like pointing it out. People don't tend to realize stuff like that.
    TehSpectre wrote: »
    TehSpectre wrote: »
    That is not the same at all.

    Methadone is also not meth.


    Edit: For clarification, not the same as in lab created stuff like ADHD medication is safe as long as you take it in the reccommended doses. Synthesized meth made by a junkie/dealer has all sorts of shit in it that can kill you, sometimes fast, sometimes slow.

    There aren't a lot of Heisenbergs out there.


    I just want to clarify something here. I suspect neither of you will disagree with this, but I just wanted to make sure it's explicit because I hate feeding into drug culture myths like "xyz drug would be safe if it weren't for the impurities!"

    The methyl group that distinguishes meth-amphetamine from amphetamine is actually a big deal. It speeds up absorption and metabolism, which increase both the likelihood of dangerous cardio side effects and the risk of addiction.

    Methamphetamine, even in the absence of adulterants, is more dangerous than amphetamine.

    Similarly, amphetamine by itself is more dangerous than the amphetamine mixed salts that are sold under the trade name Adderall, for a similar reason.

    Shivahn's right that it is hypothetically legal under federal law and international treaties for a physician to prescribe methamphetamine, but I don't think any modern physician would ever do so. I might be wrong about this, but I think the ubiquity of safer alternatives like Adderall have rendered the medical uses of methamphetamine obsolete.

    Feral on
    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
    TehSpectreMadCaddyShivahnSo It Goes
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    Slider wrote: »
    Do any of you drink to help yourself sleep?

    I have noticed that if I kick back a few, it relaxes me and makes me very sleepy.

    Well alcohol is a depressant so this is unsurprising.

    You should not be developing a habit of using depressants of any sort to go to sleep. This will become problematic quite quickly.

    I agree with you.

    I will point out that there are entire segments of the pharma industry devoted to finding (and selling you) the magical depressive sleep aid that is both functional and non-dependency-inducing. Consequently, there are plenty of pharma sleep aids out there that are gabanergic (depressive) in their effects but have been marketed either previously or currently as non-dependency-inducting.

    So somebody might wander along and say "But Ambien is totally safe to take every day! My physician who was reading aloud from a Sanofi-Aventis marketing pamphlet said so!"

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
    AManFromEarth
  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Shivahn wrote: »
    TehSpectre wrote: »
    That is not the same at all.

    Methadone is also not meth.


    Edit: For clarification, not the same as in lab created stuff like ADHD medication is safe as long as you take it in the reccommended doses. Synthesized meth made by a junkie/dealer has all sorts of shit in it that can kill you, sometimes fast, sometimes slow.

    There aren't a lot of Heisenbergs out there.

    I am not sure if I was clear. You can literally get methamphetamine from a doctor, the big thing is that it's pure (as you said), low dose, and taken orally. It is extremely close, chemically, and effectively, to amphetamine, which is prescribed pretty regularly for ADHD.

    It's not really the drug that's a problem, it's the impurities and the cutting, as you say.

    Not many doctors prescribe methamphetamine anymore, not because of the addictive properties but just because it's archaic, there are better drugs out there for pretty much anything you'd give it for.

    Your point stands, though, anything made to pharmaceutical standards is going to be a ton safer than something coming from joe bob's redneck chemistry set. We saw the same thing in prohibition when people were getting methanol and ethylene glycol poisoning from poorly made moonshine.

    Edit: also alcohol is a terrible sleep aid, it blocks rem sleep.

    Jealous Deva on
  • dporowskidporowski Registered User regular
    As someone who both loves various alcohols and is apparently hated by sleep:

    Alcohol will cheerfully depress you into sleep, but it does horrible things to your sleep patterns and REM cycles. This is really the biggest reason to not use it as a sleep aid, not "risk of abuse". Shit just doesn't do what you want, and you can easily feel worse, because while you might be unconscious, it's not proper sleep.

    The "good stuff", Ambien, Lunesta, all those sorts of pills, they put you down without the same degree/type of interference with your sleep cycles. (Though OTC sleeping pills mess with EVERYTHING, when they're not just high-dose antihistamines...)

    FeralMadCaddyEvigilant
  • MalkorMalkor Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    I like 'shrooms. A lot. I never had a bad trip, I was always careful about who I'd trip with, and somehow I never got screwed over with bad product. But I can never see myself ever doing them again. I have too much to lose, and too many responsibilities that I refuse to slack up on. Also I actually understand what the reaction is. What's scary is that I know people who didn't make that transition. They let themselves go and that could have been me.

    Being in the position to tell someone that they've gone too far with whatever substance is never going to go away. But if they didn't hide that shit so Damn hard it wouldn't be one or two voices fighting against that "culture" that seems to envelope some people.

    Malkor on
    14271f3c-c765-4e74-92b1-49d7612675f2.jpg
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    That, to me, seems like the most sensible way to assess drugs / alcohol. List the costs, list the benefits, and then compare the two columns. If a glass of red wine is, overall, a net gain in benefits with moderate to no costs? Have at it. If meth is, overall, a net loss in benefits then don't do meth.

    Pretty much this, yeah.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
    PLA
  • Muse Among MenMuse Among Men Suburban Bunny Princess? Its time for a new shtick Registered User regular
    Weed was okay, I've done it a few times now and was never able to really get high enough, but maybe it was just what I tried. What I disliked most though was that it felt like the scent lingered on my skin for a really long time, even after showers. And like, it sort of clung to my teeth so I had to drink a lot of water to get rid of the taste.

    Though now I wonder if I smell like roasted onions all the time because I eat roasted onions all the time D:

  • DeadfallDeadfall Registered User regular
    edited December 2012
    I said it in the last one, but I drink beer because I love it. Just love it. I love the complex flavors you can find, the complex aromas, I love the history of it, I love making it. It is also healthy for you in moderation.

    It relaxes me after work, and I enjoy heading to the pub at the end of the week and having a pint or two with my buds. I enjoy playing video and board games with a few beers.

    I used to be able to knock back cases of Keystone Light in my early 20's, but those days are long gone as I now have the stomach constitution of a small puppy. I have to really watch my consumption rate, which is probably why I like heavier beers as you have to sip those. Also I find them delicious.

    I don't smoke, weed or otherwise. I have nothing against those that do, but nearly everyone I grew up with smoked a lot and I just got over it. I also have a pansy throat and don't like feeling like my chest is on fire.

    But even though I don't partake I am all for legalization of weed, and I'm very interested in seeing what Colorado does now that we've legalized it. I think it would be a great source of revenue, and I think it's silly that I can get drunk but can't legally get high.

    Deadfall on
    BFzWh4r.png
    xbl - HowYouGetAnts
    steam - WeAreAllGeth
    www.hoptonogood.com - Beer/Adventure/Life
  • SliderSlider Registered User regular
    Slider wrote: »
    Do any of you drink to help yourself sleep?

    I have noticed that if I kick back a few, it relaxes me and makes me very sleepy.

    Well alcohol is a depressant so this is unsurprising.

    You should not be developing a habit of using depressants of any sort to go to sleep. This will become problematic quite quickly.

    Agreed.

  • SliderSlider Registered User regular
    Reznik wrote: »
    Well, yeah, meth is a bit much. Probably heroin too, though I do support the safe injection sites.
    But you could probably cut down on a lot of deaths from, for example, people taking ecstasy that isn't actually ecstasy at all if you could just pop down to the drug store and buy some that's guaranteed to be what it says on the tin.

    Uh....what?

    Probably?

  • Magic PinkMagic Pink Tur-Boner-Fed Registered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »

    It's like anything else one puts into their body, or does with their body. Treating drugs / alcohol as qualitatively different than fast food or cola or carrots seems strange, given that it's all just shit one ingests.

    As long as we act like idiots and ignore the various harms one can inflict on others while under the influence of them, yes.

    but why would be be that dumb

  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »

    It's like anything else one puts into their body, or does with their body. Treating drugs / alcohol as qualitatively different than fast food or cola or carrots seems strange, given that it's all just shit one ingests.

    As long as we act like idiots and ignore the various harms one can inflict on others while under the influence of them, yes.

    but why would be be that dumb

    They key word in _J_'s post is qualitatively.

    The basic type of calculus we do is the same regarding of the substance: harms vs benefits. This calculus is not qualitatively different between drugs, poisons, foods, vitamins, or anything else that affects the human body.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
    _J_
  • ReznikReznik Registered User regular
    Slider wrote: »
    Reznik wrote: »
    Well, yeah, meth is a bit much. Probably heroin too, though I do support the safe injection sites.
    But you could probably cut down on a lot of deaths from, for example, people taking ecstasy that isn't actually ecstasy at all if you could just pop down to the drug store and buy some that's guaranteed to be what it says on the tin.

    Uh....what?

    Probably?

    Poor wording on my part. I know heroin is awful, but I haven't worked out a definitive list of still-banned drugs for my hypothetical legalize (almost) everything scenario, hence the 'probably'.

    Do... Re.... Mi... Ti... La...
    Do... Re... Mi... So... Fa.... Do... Re.... Do...
    Forget it...
  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    This just came across my Facebook desk.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121214190942.htm
    Chronic use of alcohol and marijuana during youth is associated with poorer neural structure, function, and metabolism, as well as worsened neurocognitive abilities into later adolescence and adulthood. This may be due to biological and psychosocial transitions occurring during adolescence that impart increased vulnerability to neurotoxic influences. A study of longitudinal changes in fiber tract integrity associated with adolescent alcohol and marijuana use during 1.5 years supports previous findings of reduced white-matter integrity in these youth.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
    Incenjucarshryke
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    Reznik wrote: »
    Slider wrote: »
    Reznik wrote: »
    Well, yeah, meth is a bit much. Probably heroin too, though I do support the safe injection sites.
    But you could probably cut down on a lot of deaths from, for example, people taking ecstasy that isn't actually ecstasy at all if you could just pop down to the drug store and buy some that's guaranteed to be what it says on the tin.

    Uh....what?

    Probably?

    Poor wording on my part. I know heroin is awful, but I haven't worked out a definitive list of still-banned drugs for my hypothetical legalize (almost) everything scenario, hence the 'probably'.

    Part of the difficulty is also what we mean by "banned."

    Heroin is Schedule I in the US, so it cannot be prescribed for medical use. This means that a harm reduction program in the US would be able to provide clean needles and a safe environment, but would not be able to provide unadulterated heroin. In order to have supervised heroin dispensaries (as in the UK), it would have to be rescheduled.

    Either this can be done through the executive branch - the FDA would have to issue a recommendation, and the DEA would have to deschedule it... fat chance of that happening - or it could be done with an act of Congress.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • TehSpectreTehSpectre @PixelateJake on TwitterRegistered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    This just came across my Facebook desk.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121214190942.htm
    Chronic use of alcohol and marijuana during youth is associated with poorer neural structure, function, and metabolism, as well as worsened neurocognitive abilities into later adolescence and adulthood. This may be due to biological and psychosocial transitions occurring during adolescence that impart increased vulnerability to neurotoxic influences. A study of longitudinal changes in fiber tract integrity associated with adolescent alcohol and marijuana use during 1.5 years supports previous findings of reduced white-matter integrity in these youth.
    Alcohol/pot is not for minors and no one believes it should be.

    Sloth_Sig.png
    DeadfallHenroidQuidEvigilantHacksaw
  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    TehSpectre wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    This just came across my Facebook desk.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121214190942.htm
    Chronic use of alcohol and marijuana during youth is associated with poorer neural structure, function, and metabolism, as well as worsened neurocognitive abilities into later adolescence and adulthood. This may be due to biological and psychosocial transitions occurring during adolescence that impart increased vulnerability to neurotoxic influences. A study of longitudinal changes in fiber tract integrity associated with adolescent alcohol and marijuana use during 1.5 years supports previous findings of reduced white-matter integrity in these youth.
    Alcohol/pot is not for minors and no one believes it should be.

    Of course. I think though that it's information that should go toward educating minors to back off from those things.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
  • dporowskidporowski Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    TehSpectre wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    This just came across my Facebook desk.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121214190942.htm
    Chronic use of alcohol and marijuana during youth is associated with poorer neural structure, function, and metabolism, as well as worsened neurocognitive abilities into later adolescence and adulthood. This may be due to biological and psychosocial transitions occurring during adolescence that impart increased vulnerability to neurotoxic influences. A study of longitudinal changes in fiber tract integrity associated with adolescent alcohol and marijuana use during 1.5 years supports previous findings of reduced white-matter integrity in these youth.
    Alcohol/pot is not for minors and no one believes it should be.

    Of course. I think though that it's information that should go toward educating minors to back off from those things.

    Young humans have an immortality complex.

    Far simpler and safer to simply remove the "forbidden fruit" and tempting aspect of things. If beer and wine is just that nice civilised thing you have after dinner, or with the family at a nice meal, you're less likely to be compelled to chug a case the second you're out of your parent's sight. This is obviously not perfect, but if you spend your adolescent years knowing about, learning about, and being familiar with alcohol in an atmosphere of moderation, you're more likely to know how to safely indulge come adulthood.

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited December 2012
    _J_ wrote: »
    For example, there are some studies that suggest red wine has health benefits. This does not mean that everyone ought to drink wine, but rather there are some benefits to be considered, other than taste / mood-alteration, when one decides whether or not to consume wine.

    Red wine is nice and all, but you could just eat some grapes, blueberries, or peanuts instead, as the article you linked states. The health benefits are more of a reason to choose between a red and a white wine than drinking or not-drinking.

    This part is much more interesting:
    "How does alcohol help the heart?

    Various studies have shown that moderate amounts of all types of alcohol benefit your heart, not just alcohol found in red wine. It's thought that alcohol:

    Raises high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol, the "good" cholesterol
    Reduces the formation of blood clots
    Helps prevent artery damage caused by high levels of low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol, the "bad" cholesterol"

    Incenjucar on
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    TehSpectre wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    This just came across my Facebook desk.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121214190942.htm
    Chronic use of alcohol and marijuana during youth is associated with poorer neural structure, function, and metabolism, as well as worsened neurocognitive abilities into later adolescence and adulthood. This may be due to biological and psychosocial transitions occurring during adolescence that impart increased vulnerability to neurotoxic influences. A study of longitudinal changes in fiber tract integrity associated with adolescent alcohol and marijuana use during 1.5 years supports previous findings of reduced white-matter integrity in these youth.
    Alcohol/pot is not for minors and no one believes it should be.
    Sure.

    That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with parents introducing their kids to alcohol or pot in the late teens, and I think a small amount of permissiveness in the teenage years can reduce binging later on.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
    Jean
  • dporowskidporowski Registered User regular
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    _J_ wrote: »
    For example, there are some studies that suggest red wine has health benefits. This does not mean that everyone ought to drink wine, but rather there are some benefits to be considered, other than taste / mood-alteration, when one decides whether or not to consume wine.

    Red wine is nice and all, but you could just eat some grapes, blueberries, or peanuts instead, as the article you linked states. The health benefits are more of a reason to choose between a red and a white wine than drinking or not-drinking.

    This part is much more interesting:
    "How does alcohol help the heart?

    Various studies have shown that moderate amounts of all types of alcohol benefit your heart, not just alcohol found in red wine. It's thought that alcohol:

    Raises high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol, the "good" cholesterol
    Reduces the formation of blood clots
    Helps prevent artery damage caused by high levels of low-density lipoprotein (LDL) cholesterol, the "bad" cholesterol"


    Lowers your stroke risk! Just alcohol itself, not anything in it. My doctor didn't like that one when I pointed to it on his powerpoint...

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited December 2012
    Nicotine also acts as a mild anti-psychotic. Complex world we live in. Trick is that healthy alcohol consumption is 1-2 drinks per day, depending on body size and personal chemistry. People instead tend to drink in spurts of multiple drinks, which is instead bad for you.

    Incenjucar on
  • dporowskidporowski Registered User regular
    Incenjucar wrote: »
    Nicotine also acts as a mild anti-psychotic. Complex world we live in. Trick is that healthy alcohol consumption is 1-2 drinks per day, depending on body size and personal chemistry. People instead tend to drink in spurts of multiple drinks, which is instead bad for you.

    Nicotine really does have some interesting effects on both IBS and schizophrenia, for example. Smoking really CAN be an example of self-medication.

  • JeanJean For now : Vanier, Ontario. Soon : Gatineau, QuébecRegistered User regular
    edited December 2012
    I smoked weed a few times but it's not really my thing. I think sending pot smokers to jail is a complete waste, you ruin their future for no good reason and it crowd jails for nothing. The war on drugs is a waste of time and ressources IMHO.

    I love beer. i love it a bit too much I have to admit. I love both the taste and the buzz. I have issues restraining myself :oops: I don't drink everyday but when I do, I get shit faced. I wish I was able myself to just have a brew with my steak and leave it at that for the rest of the night.

    Jean on
    "You won't destroy us, You won't destroy our democracy. We are a small but proud nation. No one can bomb us to silence. No one can scare us from being Norway. This evening and tonight, we'll take care of each other. That's what we do best when attacked'' - Jens Stoltenberg
  • CalixtusCalixtus Registered User regular
    dporowski wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    TehSpectre wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    This just came across my Facebook desk.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121214190942.htm
    Chronic use of alcohol and marijuana during youth is associated with poorer neural structure, function, and metabolism, as well as worsened neurocognitive abilities into later adolescence and adulthood. This may be due to biological and psychosocial transitions occurring during adolescence that impart increased vulnerability to neurotoxic influences. A study of longitudinal changes in fiber tract integrity associated with adolescent alcohol and marijuana use during 1.5 years supports previous findings of reduced white-matter integrity in these youth.
    Alcohol/pot is not for minors and no one believes it should be.

    Of course. I think though that it's information that should go toward educating minors to back off from those things.

    Young humans have an immortality complex.

    Far simpler and safer to simply remove the "forbidden fruit" and tempting aspect of things. If beer and wine is just that nice civilised thing you have after dinner, or with the family at a nice meal, you're less likely to be compelled to chug a case the second you're out of your parent's sight. This is obviously not perfect, but if you spend your adolescent years knowing about, learning about, and being familiar with alcohol in an atmosphere of moderation, you're more likely to know how to safely indulge come adulthood.
    Citation?

    S'late so I'm not bothering to dig up a proper English cite, but everything I've ever heard when it comes to research on this shows the exact opposite. The later you start drinking, the less likely you are to suffer related problems - there is no connection between whether you are introduced to it by your parents or not, you start early, you're more at risk.

    It's chemistry basically. Teaching a kid responsible drinking by early introduction at home is another variation of willing yourself out of a depression - there is an actual physical lack of the mechanisms neccesary to do what you want it to do.

    -This message was deviously brought to you by:
  • IncenjucarIncenjucar Audio Game Developer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    I think the trick is allowing highly-restricted access. When I was a child, I was allowed to take sips of this and that, and so I wasn't very impressed with anything when I was older.

  • AnomeAnome Registered User regular
    I'm at an interesting point with substances right now. I'm trying to decide if I can be trusted with alcohol. Two nights ago was my friend's birthday and we went out for karaoke and my off switch disabled itself. So much alcohol, I have no idea how much. I remember most of the night but there is a hole in memory the exact size of why I woke up in bed alone, my boyfriend having opted to sleep in the spare room. He gave me only the roughest outline of what happened, but it was basically me spewing vitriol at him because I thought he was making fun of me or something. That is something that hasn't happened for quite some time, but it's not a unique occurrence, either. I have committed to a one beer New Year plus one glass of sparkling wine at midnight. If for any reason I go over that, I'm cutting it out for 6 months just to make sure I can. If that fails, I'll have to think about getting actual help. There's enough history of alcoholism in my family that I'm trying to take this seriously. I usually don't go overboard like that but when I do it scares me and damages my relationships.

    I used to smoke a fair amount of pot but when I quit, the feeling of my mental faculties returning was enough to convince me that I shouldn't do it often. I'm down to about 3 times a year, a happy level for me.

    Hallucinogens are an interesting concept for me. I've done mushrooms twice and had two very different, but equally amazing and in different ways enlightening trips. I can see it becoming a once or twice a year indulgence.

    The ease with which I cut out the pot and and the fact that I never felt the need to do more mushrooms makes me worry, now that I think about it, extra about the alcohol consumption. I think it's thinking time.

  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    Calixtus wrote: »
    dporowski wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    TehSpectre wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    This just came across my Facebook desk.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121214190942.htm
    Chronic use of alcohol and marijuana during youth is associated with poorer neural structure, function, and metabolism, as well as worsened neurocognitive abilities into later adolescence and adulthood. This may be due to biological and psychosocial transitions occurring during adolescence that impart increased vulnerability to neurotoxic influences. A study of longitudinal changes in fiber tract integrity associated with adolescent alcohol and marijuana use during 1.5 years supports previous findings of reduced white-matter integrity in these youth.
    Alcohol/pot is not for minors and no one believes it should be.

    Of course. I think though that it's information that should go toward educating minors to back off from those things.

    Young humans have an immortality complex.

    Far simpler and safer to simply remove the "forbidden fruit" and tempting aspect of things. If beer and wine is just that nice civilised thing you have after dinner, or with the family at a nice meal, you're less likely to be compelled to chug a case the second you're out of your parent's sight. This is obviously not perfect, but if you spend your adolescent years knowing about, learning about, and being familiar with alcohol in an atmosphere of moderation, you're more likely to know how to safely indulge come adulthood.
    Citation?

    S'late so I'm not bothering to dig up a proper English cite, but everything I've ever heard when it comes to research on this shows the exact opposite. The later you start drinking, the less likely you are to suffer related problems - there is no connection between whether you are introduced to it by your parents or not, you start early, you're more at risk.

    Just a couple:

    http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/jah/article/PIIS1054139X04000539/abstract
    Perceived consequences, parent and adult relative provision of alcohol, and drinking with a parent were protective of underage drinking. Providing alcohol at a party, however, was associated with a two-fold increase in past 30-day use and binge drinking. There were minimal differences on adults' approval across the three racial/ethnic groups.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20649775
    The rate at which older adolescents report RSOD [Risky Single-Occasion Drinking, ie binge drinking] and alcohol-related problem behaviour is increased when they obtain alcohol from sources other than their parents.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    Of course, there's also contradictory studies:

    http://www.jsad.com/jsad/article/Influence_of_Family_Factors_and_Supervised_Alcohol_Use_on_Adolescent_Alcoho/4573.html
    Adult-supervised settings for alcohol use resulted in higher levels of harmful alcohol consequences, contrary to predictions derived from harm-minimization policy. Findings challenge the harm-minimization position that supervised alcohol use or early-age alcohol use will reduce the development of adolescent alcohol problems

    And, of course, the requisite non-committal lit review: http://alcalc.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/03/05/alcalc.ags022.short?rss=1
    While a large literature exists concerning parental influence on children's drinking, exploration of the volume of alcohol and context of parental supply is lacking. Results from cross-sectional and longitudinal studies on the impact of parental factors such as monitoring, rule setting, alcohol supply and supervision of drinking present an unclear picture. Consequently, translation of research findings into advice for parents is problematic.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • mrt144mrt144 King of the Numbernames Registered User regular
    edited January 2013
    God, I want to get some pot but I dont even know anyone who smokes and I feel kind of silly just asking neighbors if they have any or if they could call in their connection. My wife is laughing at how ridiculous we are. Can't even find weed despite living in Seattle.

    mrt144 on
  • ShivahnShivahn Unaware of her barrel shifter privilege Eastern coastal temptressRegistered User regular
    Feral wrote: »
    Shivahn wrote: »
    TehSpectre wrote: »
    Probably shouldn't legalize it all.

    Though "I'm running down to the drug store to grab some cherry meth" does have a ring to it

    You can get meth prescribed from a doctor. Most won't because they don't want you selling it though.

    About half of the drugs prescribed for ADHD end up becoming amphetamine, which is methamphetamine without a methyl group.

    Not that that means much, but I like pointing it out. People don't tend to realize stuff like that.
    TehSpectre wrote: »
    TehSpectre wrote: »
    That is not the same at all.

    Methadone is also not meth.


    Edit: For clarification, not the same as in lab created stuff like ADHD medication is safe as long as you take it in the reccommended doses. Synthesized meth made by a junkie/dealer has all sorts of shit in it that can kill you, sometimes fast, sometimes slow.

    There aren't a lot of Heisenbergs out there.


    I just want to clarify something here. I suspect neither of you will disagree with this, but I just wanted to make sure it's explicit because I hate feeding into drug culture myths like "xyz drug would be safe if it weren't for the impurities!"

    The methyl group that distinguishes meth-amphetamine from amphetamine is actually a big deal. It speeds up absorption and metabolism, which increase both the likelihood of dangerous cardio side effects and the risk of addiction.

    Methamphetamine, even in the absence of adulterants, is more dangerous than amphetamine.

    Similarly, amphetamine by itself is more dangerous than the amphetamine mixed salts that are sold under the trade name Adderall, for a similar reason.

    Shivahn's right that it is hypothetically legal under federal law and international treaties for a physician to prescribe methamphetamine, but I don't think any modern physician would ever do so. I might be wrong about this, but I think the ubiquity of safer alternatives like Adderall have rendered the medical uses of methamphetamine obsolete.

    The methyl group does more than that. It also makes it more easily cross the blood brain barrier, which is obviously a huge freaking deal.

    I did not know that the amphetamine mixed salts were less dangerous than straight up amphetamine though. That is interesting.

    Some modern physicians will prescribe it, but 1) not many will, and 2) those that do will do so usually only for otherwise treatment-resistant stuff and will keep the patient on a very short leash. It can be gotten though, because Adderall hasn't totally rendered it obsolete - every once in a while, someone's body won't work with other drugs.

    Feral
  • Void SlayerVoid Slayer Very Suspicious Registered User regular
    I have always wondered about how legality effects getting people into and through recovery.

    It just seems like anyone who really has a problem is going to be less concerned or motivated about going to jail then all the damage they are doing to their family and relationships.

    I honestly do not think that legalizing even harsher drugs like heroin and meth would reduce the drive to get well, they already do such terrible things to someone who is an addict that there is a significant motive to stop then.

    Any legalization though should be accompanied by free and more available treatment though so...

    I do not smoke pot, but it should be noted that the types of fertilizers and pesticides used in it's production can dramatically change the smell (and health risks). Anything that is legalized needs to be regulated to ensure purity and that it is free of other chemicals.

    Earlier someone said that the FDA and DEA would need to change policy in order to make the drugs legal and that was unlikely to happen, doesn't that just need one person elected to do that? I know it could be as easily reversed as Obama's immigration thing and would be wildly unpopular... oh I get it now.

    He's a shy overambitious dog-catcher on the wrong side of the law. She's an orphaned psychic mercenary with the power to bend men's minds. They fight crime!
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    Shivahn wrote: »
    The methyl group does more than that. It also makes it more easily cross the blood brain barrier, which is obviously a huge freaking deal.

    I did not know that. That is interesting.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • ShivahnShivahn Unaware of her barrel shifter privilege Eastern coastal temptressRegistered User regular
    edited January 2013
    Feral wrote: »
    Shivahn wrote: »
    The methyl group does more than that. It also makes it more easily cross the blood brain barrier, which is obviously a huge freaking deal.

    I did not know that. That is interesting.

    Mmmhm. Specifically (for the curious), the methyl group that makes it meth is the one on the right here:
    200px-Methamphetamine.svg.png

    It being there reduces the polarity of the molecule by sort of diffusing the electron pulling effect of the nitrogen. Making the whole thing less polar and less lipophobic, leading to it more easily crossing the fatty barrier.

    Shivahn on
    FeralPLA
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    That makes sense :)

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
  • ShivahnShivahn Unaware of her barrel shifter privilege Eastern coastal temptressRegistered User regular
    Yeah! It turns out that drugs can be changed pretty dramatically based on changing their polarity. Adding a carboxylic acid group to make something more polar or doing something like methylation to make it less polar often has dramatic effects.

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