Speaking of, got a chance to run J4+Leona earlier today. Incredibly fun to jump on someone and instagib them as Jarvers. Definitely looking forward to his next skin.
I played against an Ezreal that actually knew what he was doing on Dominion for the first time today as a bruiser. That was the most annoying game I have had in a long, long time, fuck you Ezreal.
Yeah, my thought is support ques would be like healer ques.
About the metagame...is that Riot ignoring something everyone knows exists? Or are there 5-support teams, or 5-jungler teams that end up being viable?
They acknowledge it exists, they just try not to influence it if they can help it. IT lets players decide for themselves how to play and lets the meta shift (albeit slowly)
Well I wouldn't go that far, Riot can be quite heavy handed with nerfing champions that break the meta and they explicitly design champions to fit into the current meta.
They design champs to fill specific roles, but where those roles go and how you construct a team around them is what the Meta is. What champs have the nerfed for breaking the meta?
Fair point, and I will concede that there's a fine line between "breaking the meta" and just "overpowered". But in my opinion: Urgot Vlad and Kennen for dunking melee tops, Malphite and Shen for ruining the day of ad carries, Karthus for being able to farm wraiths so easily and ruin the day of all the other lanes, that one patch where they nerfed everyone's AOE ult besides Annie's. And on the flipside of that, Shyvana was designed to be good in the S2 jungle, and now she's awful. This is true to a lesser extent of Udyr and Trundle.
I played against an Ezreal that actually knew what he was doing on Dominion for the first time today as a bruiser. That was the most annoying game I have had in a long, long time, fuck you Ezreal.
Yeah, my thought is support ques would be like healer ques.
About the metagame...is that Riot ignoring something everyone knows exists? Or are there 5-support teams, or 5-jungler teams that end up being viable?
They acknowledge it exists, they just try not to influence it if they can help it. IT lets players decide for themselves how to play and lets the meta shift (albeit slowly)
Well I wouldn't go that far, Riot can be quite heavy handed with nerfing champions that break the meta and they explicitly design champions to fit into the current meta.
They design champs to fill specific roles, but where those roles go and how you construct a team around them is what the Meta is. What champs have the nerfed for breaking the meta?
Fair point, and I will concede that there's a fine line between "breaking the meta" and just "overpowered". But in my opinion: Urgot Vlad and Kennen for dunking melee tops, Malphite and Shen for ruining the day of ad carries, Karthus for being able to farm wraiths so easily and ruin the day of all the other lanes, that one patch where they nerfed everyone's AOE ult besides Annie's. And on the flipside of that, Shyvana was designed to be good in the S2 jungle, and now she's awful. This is true to a lesser extent of Udyr and Trundle.
Yeah they definitely design champs to counter specific roles and such and overall improvements to the game balance and structure will have a side effect of making certain champs more or less powerful certainly.
I just don't think they really do that with the intent of changing the meta per-say. It can certainly have that effect though.
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Developing a role queue system has a number of unintended consequences that are hard to rectify. For example:
Do you let people queue for dual roles? If not, you may wind up with a glut of people at Mid and a lack of people in the support queue. Then people will start queuing as support so they have shorter wait timers, and probably not actually wanting to play that role.
I don't see any way to implement a role queue system that improves the character selection process. Sure, it saves you a few lines of discussion at the start, but what real benefit do you get out of it?
Shyvana was designed to be good in the S2 jungle, and now she's awful.
But it's not a huge point against her as she's great at top lane and gets way more farm than she ever would as a jungler (becoming an even bigger AoE threat in teamfights).
Yeah they definitely design champs to counter specific roles and such and overall improvements to the game balance and structure will have a side effect of making certain champs more or less powerful certainly.
I just don't think they really do that with the intent of changing the meta per-say. It can certainly have that effect though.
Well I guess it depends how loosely you define the term meta :P It doesn't bother me for the most part but even Morello has admitted they are too reactive sometimes.
Shyvana was designed to be good in the S2 jungle, and now she's awful.
But it's not a huge point against her as she's great at top lane and gets way more farm than she ever would as a jungler (becoming an even bigger AoE threat in teamfights).
I've tried her in lane and it's never really...worked.
Something I'm curious about. In WoW, players que for a specific role in raids. Tanks que as tank, healers as healers, dps as dps.
Why does LoL not use a similar system?
If a player knows they want to play bot support, oughtn't there be a checkbox in que for that? If someone wants to jungle, or be ad carry, oughtn't those be options when queing, so that groups don't get 3 people who want to play support, or have to argue about who plays what role?
It seems strange that they throw 5 random people together and then assume you'll get persons adept and able to fill each role.
You're fairly new to the game but the meta as it is now isn't how its always been. There ahve been times where "all carries" "all bruisers" and "all guys with aoe" were all dominate metas.
Yup. Still learning.
Seems like the random group thing would get old after a while.
Yeah they definitely design champs to counter specific roles and such and overall improvements to the game balance and structure will have a side effect of making certain champs more or less powerful certainly.
I just don't think they really do that with the intent of changing the meta per-say. It can certainly have that effect though.
Well I guess it depends how loosely you define the term meta :P It doesn't bother me for the most part but even Morello has admitted they are too reactive sometimes.
Which further shows that their intent is to let the meta do it's own thing for the most part.
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Developing a role queue system has a number of unintended consequences that are hard to rectify. For example:
Do you let people queue for dual roles? If not, you may wind up with a glut of people at Mid and a lack of people in the support queue. Then people will start queuing as support so they have shorter wait timers, and probably not actually wanting to play that role.
I don't see any way to implement a role queue system that improves the character selection process. Sure, it saves you a few lines of discussion at the start, but what real benefit do you get out of it?
I'm not suggesting that the game add a role que system. I was just asking why they didn't have one given that there seems to be an established metagame of roles / lanes.
Still trying to figure out how this works, and didn't understand why role ques do not exist if the metagame is so firmly established.
Something I'm curious about. In WoW, players que for a specific role in raids. Tanks que as tank, healers as healers, dps as dps.
Why does LoL not use a similar system?
If a player knows they want to play bot support, oughtn't there be a checkbox in que for that? If someone wants to jungle, or be ad carry, oughtn't those be options when queing, so that groups don't get 3 people who want to play support, or have to argue about who plays what role?
It seems strange that they throw 5 random people together and then assume you'll get persons adept and able to fill each role.
You're fairly new to the game but the meta as it is now isn't how its always been. There ahve been times where "all carries" "all bruisers" and "all guys with aoe" were all dominate metas.
Yup. Still learning.
Seems like the random group thing would get old after a while.
Having an established meta isn't an awful thing with regard to solo Q. Increases the chances of getting a functional team. And if today's meta seems stale, its nothing on how awful the 3 I mentioned there were.
Something I'm curious about. In WoW, players que for a specific role in raids. Tanks que as tank, healers as healers, dps as dps.
Why does LoL not use a similar system?
If a player knows they want to play bot support, oughtn't there be a checkbox in que for that? If someone wants to jungle, or be ad carry, oughtn't those be options when queing, so that groups don't get 3 people who want to play support, or have to argue about who plays what role?
It seems strange that they throw 5 random people together and then assume you'll get persons adept and able to fill each role.
You're fairly new to the game but the meta as it is now isn't how its always been. There ahve been times where "all carries" "all bruisers" and "all guys with aoe" were all dominate metas.
Yup. Still learning.
Seems like the random group thing would get old after a while.
Having an established meta isn't an awful thing with regard to solo Q. Increases the chances of getting a functional team. And if today's meta seems stale, its nothing on how awful the 3 I mentioned there were.
It's not bad now, since no one else seems to want to play healy support.
It's just when i get into a game with 3 people who want to play mid, and argue about it.
Something I'm curious about. In WoW, players que for a specific role in raids. Tanks que as tank, healers as healers, dps as dps.
Why does LoL not use a similar system?
If a player knows they want to play bot support, oughtn't there be a checkbox in que for that? If someone wants to jungle, or be ad carry, oughtn't those be options when queing, so that groups don't get 3 people who want to play support, or have to argue about who plays what role?
It seems strange that they throw 5 random people together and then assume you'll get persons adept and able to fill each role.
You're fairly new to the game but the meta as it is now isn't how its always been. There ahve been times where "all carries" "all bruisers" and "all guys with aoe" were all dominate metas.
Yup. Still learning.
Seems like the random group thing would get old after a while.
Having an established meta isn't an awful thing with regard to solo Q. Increases the chances of getting a functional team. And if today's meta seems stale, its nothing on how awful the 3 I mentioned there were.
It's not bad now, since no one else seems to want to play healy support.
It's just when i get into a game with 3 people who want to play mid, and argue about it.
Yeah, that never really changes. It's so nice when someone actually asks for support in a game.
On the other hand, if they just put check boxes for what lane you want to play in, then it doesn't matter what you do in that lane. They could just match 1 person per lane and the other 2 can do whatever.
Much like ELO it wouldn't always /have/ to have ever kind of person, but if you know A wants top, B wants mid and C wants bot, why not smoosh them together and toss them with two people who either dont care or check jungle box or something.
It could just be another matchmaking filter.
I, for one, would love being able to queue up for the jungle position. Or support. Or mid when I want to practice.
Doesn't mean I have to go AP mid, or whatever. You know you'll always have one person in each lane.
On the other hand, if they just put check boxes for what lane you want to play in, then it doesn't matter what you do in that lane. They could just match 1 person per lane and the other 2 can do whatever.
Much like ELO it wouldn't always /have/ to have ever kind of person, but if you know A wants top, B wants mid and C wants bot, why not smoosh them together and toss them with two people who either dont care or check jungle box or something.
It could just be another matchmaking filter.
I, for one, would love being able to queue up for the jungle position. Or support. Or mid when I want to practice.
Doesn't mean I have to go AP mid, or whatever. You know you'll always have one person in each lane.
I think it would adversely affect the queue times personally. People don't tend to want to play roles in equal amounts so you would have roles that have long queues (Mid and Top for example) and roles that would go pretty quickly (Jungle, Bot)
It would also add a whole new level to trolling. (Someone could say they want to queue for bot lane and then try and go mid or top in game because of the shorter queue anyways)
Delphinidaes on
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Something I'm curious about. In WoW, players que for a specific role in raids. Tanks que as tank, healers as healers, dps as dps.
Why does LoL not use a similar system?
If a player knows they want to play bot support, oughtn't there be a checkbox in que for that? If someone wants to jungle, or be ad carry, oughtn't those be options when queing, so that groups don't get 3 people who want to play support, or have to argue about who plays what role?
It seems strange that they throw 5 random people together and then assume you'll get persons adept and able to fill each role.
You're fairly new to the game but the meta as it is now isn't how its always been. There ahve been times where "all carries" "all bruisers" and "all guys with aoe" were all dominate metas.
Yup. Still learning.
Seems like the random group thing would get old after a while.
Having an established meta isn't an awful thing with regard to solo Q. Increases the chances of getting a functional team. And if today's meta seems stale, its nothing on how awful the 3 I mentioned there were.
It's not bad now, since no one else seems to want to play healy support.
It's just when i get into a game with 3 people who want to play mid, and argue about it.
Basic meta has gone something like this as I recall. Could be pretty wrong, its been a long time.
Early on you had a ton of carries on every team and you blew people up as fast as you could. Itemization made AP fairly weak.
People realized that carry teams were frail so if you had a ton of AOE you could global them. So AOE meta was a thing.
Which then gave rise to all bruiser all the time to survive the AOE
Then you had Eurolane after that which essentially was designed to get the maximum amount of gold to your carry in the safest way possible so you could get them as big as possible as fast as possible. Especially designed for champions like Vayne and Kog. You kept your carry safe from the endless bruisers until they could outscale them.
Asian teams have moved the game towards a far more aggressive strategy where the general lay out is the same but you see carries that are stronger early game and build more utility and survival.
On the other hand, if they just put check boxes for what lane you want to play in, then it doesn't matter what you do in that lane. They could just match 1 person per lane and the other 2 can do whatever.
Much like ELO it wouldn't always /have/ to have ever kind of person, but if you know A wants top, B wants mid and C wants bot, why not smoosh them together and toss them with two people who either dont care or check jungle box or something.
It could just be another matchmaking filter.
I, for one, would love being able to queue up for the jungle position. Or support. Or mid when I want to practice.
Doesn't mean I have to go AP mid, or whatever. You know you'll always have one person in each lane.
I think it would adversely affect the queue times personally. People don't tend to want to play roles in equal amounts so you would have roles that have long queues (Mid and Top for example) and roles that would go pretty quickly (Jungle, Bot)
It would also add a whole new level to trolling. (Someone could say they want to queue for bot lane and then try and go mid or top in game because of the shorter queue anyways)
Thats like saying ELO is a huge filter, or solo vs multi-queuing. It isn't. It tries for a minute then says fuck it and starts grabbing people from elsewhere. Solo vs multiple people queuing should dramatically increase the queue, but it doesn't. There would be no increase to queue times, because it'd simply be the system doing a quick check to see if there are people, if not, it says, 'lol too bad adding to general queue' and you could drop out if you wanted at that point. Or just play normally.
People will troll regardless, making systems to stop them from trolling is pointless as they'd just do something else. So going 'omg someone could troll!!1' is... dumb? because they just do it now, 'Mid or feed' or 'omg no top' queue dodge.
On the other hand, if they just put check boxes for what lane you want to play in, then it doesn't matter what you do in that lane. They could just match 1 person per lane and the other 2 can do whatever.
Much like ELO it wouldn't always /have/ to have ever kind of person, but if you know A wants top, B wants mid and C wants bot, why not smoosh them together and toss them with two people who either dont care or check jungle box or something.
It could just be another matchmaking filter.
I, for one, would love being able to queue up for the jungle position. Or support. Or mid when I want to practice.
Doesn't mean I have to go AP mid, or whatever. You know you'll always have one person in each lane.
I think it would adversely affect the queue times personally. People don't tend to want to play roles in equal amounts so you would have roles that have long queues (Mid and Top for example) and roles that would go pretty quickly (Jungle, Bot)
It would also add a whole new level to trolling. (Someone could say they want to queue for bot lane and then try and go mid or top in game because of the shorter queue anyways)
Thats like saying ELO is a huge filter, or solo vs multi-queuing. It isn't. It tries for a minute then says fuck it and starts grabbing people from elsewhere. Solo vs multiple people queuing should dramatically increase the queue, but it doesn't. There would be no increase to queue times, because it'd simply be the system doing a quick check to see if there are people, if not, it says, 'lol too bad adding to general queue' and you could drop out if you wanted at that point. Or just play normally.
People will troll regardless, making systems to stop them from trolling is pointless as they'd just do something else. So going 'omg someone could troll!!1' is... dumb? because they just do it now, 'Mid or feed' or 'omg no top' queue dodge.
You are drastically underestimating the number of people queuing for normals at any time. Next time you queue as a 4-man, ask the other team if they are a 4-man with a random, I guarantee you that they will be. That's my experience, anyways.
Something I'm curious about. In WoW, players que for a specific role in raids. Tanks que as tank, healers as healers, dps as dps.
Why does LoL not use a similar system?
If a player knows they want to play bot support, oughtn't there be a checkbox in que for that? If someone wants to jungle, or be ad carry, oughtn't those be options when queing, so that groups don't get 3 people who want to play support, or have to argue about who plays what role?
It seems strange that they throw 5 random people together and then assume you'll get persons adept and able to fill each role.
You're fairly new to the game but the meta as it is now isn't how its always been. There ahve been times where "all carries" "all bruisers" and "all guys with aoe" were all dominate metas.
Yup. Still learning.
Seems like the random group thing would get old after a while.
Having an established meta isn't an awful thing with regard to solo Q. Increases the chances of getting a functional team. And if today's meta seems stale, its nothing on how awful the 3 I mentioned there were.
It's not bad now, since no one else seems to want to play healy support.
It's just when i get into a game with 3 people who want to play mid, and argue about it.
Yeah, that never really changes. It's so nice when someone actually asks for support in a game.
That's what keeps me playing at the moment. I like to play support, and assume at higher levels that role is sought out. So, maybe find a team and avoid the "i get mid. I called it first. No u." fights.
On the other hand, if they just put check boxes for what lane you want to play in, then it doesn't matter what you do in that lane. They could just match 1 person per lane and the other 2 can do whatever.
Much like ELO it wouldn't always /have/ to have ever kind of person, but if you know A wants top, B wants mid and C wants bot, why not smoosh them together and toss them with two people who either dont care or check jungle box or something.
It could just be another matchmaking filter.
I, for one, would love being able to queue up for the jungle position. Or support. Or mid when I want to practice.
Doesn't mean I have to go AP mid, or whatever. You know you'll always have one person in each lane.
I think it would adversely affect the queue times personally. People don't tend to want to play roles in equal amounts so you would have roles that have long queues (Mid and Top for example) and roles that would go pretty quickly (Jungle, Bot)
It would also add a whole new level to trolling. (Someone could say they want to queue for bot lane and then try and go mid or top in game because of the shorter queue anyways)
Thats like saying ELO is a huge filter, or solo vs multi-queuing. It isn't. It tries for a minute then says fuck it and starts grabbing people from elsewhere. Solo vs multiple people queuing should dramatically increase the queue, but it doesn't. There would be no increase to queue times, because it'd simply be the system doing a quick check to see if there are people, if not, it says, 'lol too bad adding to general queue' and you could drop out if you wanted at that point. Or just play normally.
People will troll regardless, making systems to stop them from trolling is pointless as they'd just do something else. So going 'omg someone could troll!!1' is... dumb? because they just do it now, 'Mid or feed' or 'omg no top' queue dodge.
People will troll regardless, giving them even more things to troll with is silly. Especially since the proposed system wouldn't necessarily solve anything, since your solution to queue times is to bypass the system in the first place.
Basically you propose adding a system that would work a fraction of the time, and would more than likely cause more problems than it solves.
Delphinidaes on
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Shyvana was designed to be good in the S2 jungle, and now she's awful.
But it's not a huge point against her as she's great at top lane and gets way more farm than she ever would as a jungler (becoming an even bigger AoE threat in teamfights).
I've tried her in lane and it's never really...worked.
What didn't work about it? She deals dual-type damage so your opponent can't just build one defense. She threatens anyone that goes into melee with her with huge sustained damage. She has an armor shredding ranged poke (not the highest damage ranged poke, noted, but it's still a good tool). And, importantly, she farms super fast and can easily roam and take jungle camps as well as get to mid/jungle fights fast with her speed buff. The main thing you have to do it just have Lifesteal Quints and grab a Vamp Scepter early while you build defenses vs your lane.
She has her counters like everyone does, but if you have a good top with her you're looking at ~300 CS worth of farm on a good 40min non-surrender game. She farms that well.
On the other hand, if they just put check boxes for what lane you want to play in, then it doesn't matter what you do in that lane. They could just match 1 person per lane and the other 2 can do whatever.
Much like ELO it wouldn't always /have/ to have ever kind of person, but if you know A wants top, B wants mid and C wants bot, why not smoosh them together and toss them with two people who either dont care or check jungle box or something.
It could just be another matchmaking filter.
I, for one, would love being able to queue up for the jungle position. Or support. Or mid when I want to practice.
Doesn't mean I have to go AP mid, or whatever. You know you'll always have one person in each lane.
I think it would adversely affect the queue times personally. People don't tend to want to play roles in equal amounts so you would have roles that have long queues (Mid and Top for example) and roles that would go pretty quickly (Jungle, Bot)
It would also add a whole new level to trolling. (Someone could say they want to queue for bot lane and then try and go mid or top in game because of the shorter queue anyways)
Thats like saying ELO is a huge filter, or solo vs multi-queuing. It isn't. It tries for a minute then says fuck it and starts grabbing people from elsewhere. Solo vs multiple people queuing should dramatically increase the queue, but it doesn't. There would be no increase to queue times, because it'd simply be the system doing a quick check to see if there are people, if not, it says, 'lol too bad adding to general queue' and you could drop out if you wanted at that point. Or just play normally.
People will troll regardless, making systems to stop them from trolling is pointless as they'd just do something else. So going 'omg someone could troll!!1' is... dumb? because they just do it now, 'Mid or feed' or 'omg no top' queue dodge.
People will troll regardless, giving them even more things to troll with is silly. Especially since the proposed system wouldn't necessarily solve anything, since your solution to queue times is to bypass the system in the first place.
Basically you propose adding a system that would work a fraction of the time, and would more than likely cause more problems than it solves.
Except as Sampsen just pointed out, there are millions of people playing. Millions. There will probably be at least a 2/3 chance you'll get it to work.
Unless you're saying that even though this thread is a tiny, tiny, fractional, infinitely small sample, and yet we have plenty of dedicated players to every position that frequent this thread, that some simple matchmaking on Riot's side couldn't feasibly find three or four people who want to play together in certain roles.
This would also probably take all of a hour to code in, considering they have filters for all kinds of things already.
And it isn't giving people any more options to troll then they have already. It isn't like it would put a giant OMG MID flag on your champ select window, it'd just toss people together who have a hankering for a certain spot.
I've been using a few highly general rune sets for... forever. MS quints, armor and mr per level blues and yellows, mpen/arpen reds. Sometimes I swap in mana/5 or gold/5 for fun, but really that's the extent of it.
I am tempted to blow a ton of IP on flat damage or flat AP as a gimmick for 3v3. But I only have enough IP for one of them. Which is more entertaining? Putting it all into AD gives about 21.7 bonus damage, which means that somebody like Jax would have like 90 AD at level 1 after buying some damage item.
Shyvana was designed to be good in the S2 jungle, and now she's awful.
But it's not a huge point against her as she's great at top lane and gets way more farm than she ever would as a jungler (becoming an even bigger AoE threat in teamfights).
I've tried her in lane and it's never really...worked.
What didn't work about it? She deals dual-type damage so your opponent can't just build one defense. She threatens anyone that goes into melee with her with huge sustained damage. She has an armor shredding ranged poke (not the highest damage ranged poke, noted, but it's still a good tool). And, importantly, she farms super fast and can easily roam and take jungle camps as well as get to mid/jungle fights fast with her speed buff. The main thing you have to do it just have Lifesteal Quints and grab a Vamp Scepter early while you build defenses vs your lane.
She has her counters like everyone does, but if you have a good top with her you're looking at ~300 CS worth of farm on a good 40min non-surrender game. She farms that well.
I just get kited and out damaged. What do you level?
On the other hand, if they just put check boxes for what lane you want to play in, then it doesn't matter what you do in that lane. They could just match 1 person per lane and the other 2 can do whatever.
Much like ELO it wouldn't always /have/ to have ever kind of person, but if you know A wants top, B wants mid and C wants bot, why not smoosh them together and toss them with two people who either dont care or check jungle box or something.
It could just be another matchmaking filter.
I, for one, would love being able to queue up for the jungle position. Or support. Or mid when I want to practice.
Doesn't mean I have to go AP mid, or whatever. You know you'll always have one person in each lane.
I think it would adversely affect the queue times personally. People don't tend to want to play roles in equal amounts so you would have roles that have long queues (Mid and Top for example) and roles that would go pretty quickly (Jungle, Bot)
It would also add a whole new level to trolling. (Someone could say they want to queue for bot lane and then try and go mid or top in game because of the shorter queue anyways)
Thats like saying ELO is a huge filter, or solo vs multi-queuing. It isn't. It tries for a minute then says fuck it and starts grabbing people from elsewhere. Solo vs multiple people queuing should dramatically increase the queue, but it doesn't. There would be no increase to queue times, because it'd simply be the system doing a quick check to see if there are people, if not, it says, 'lol too bad adding to general queue' and you could drop out if you wanted at that point. Or just play normally.
People will troll regardless, making systems to stop them from trolling is pointless as they'd just do something else. So going 'omg someone could troll!!1' is... dumb? because they just do it now, 'Mid or feed' or 'omg no top' queue dodge.
People will troll regardless, giving them even more things to troll with is silly. Especially since the proposed system wouldn't necessarily solve anything, since your solution to queue times is to bypass the system in the first place.
Basically you propose adding a system that would work a fraction of the time, and would more than likely cause more problems than it solves.
Except as Sampsen just pointed out, there are millions of people playing. Millions. There will probably be at least a 2/3 chance you'll get it to work.
Unless you're saying that even though this thread is a tiny, tiny, fractional, infinitely small sample, and yet we have plenty of dedicated players to every position that frequent this thread, that some simple matchmaking on Riot's side couldn't feasibly find three or four people who want to play together in certain roles.
This would also probably take all of a hour to code in, considering they have filters for all kinds of things already.
And it isn't giving people any more options to troll then they have already. It isn't like it would put a giant OMG MID flag on your champ select window, it'd just toss people together who have a hankering for a certain spot.
I'm saying it's disproportionate. Sure millions of available people means that for a single game it would queue pretty quick, but the problem is that it's trying to match up thousands of games. Basically the system already has decent queue times without your proposed system, and you think that adding another layer of selection (with a time range before it ignores the role system) is not going to impact the queue times?
I don't see how that is feasible, adding any additional filter and giving it a time frame before it ignores that filter to broaden the search by it's very existence adds to the current queue times where such a system does not exist.
And once people figure out which spots have smaller queue times (As there will be some disparity, unless you are saying that an equal number of people want to play support as the number who want to play mid) then they will start queuing with those a a preference just to cut their wait down as much as possible. You already see that sort of thing on a small scale in games like WoW where tank and healer queue times are incredibly short and the more popular role of DPS is incredibly long, and that's not even on the same scale.
Which would ultimately lead to the current situation anyways where people just call out what they want and fight over it.
Now your system will admittingly create some instances where it could work well and things go smoothly, however the problems it causes personally seems like it wouldn't be worth the extra overall queue times.
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Shyvana was designed to be good in the S2 jungle, and now she's awful.
But it's not a huge point against her as she's great at top lane and gets way more farm than she ever would as a jungler (becoming an even bigger AoE threat in teamfights).
I've tried her in lane and it's never really...worked.
What didn't work about it? She deals dual-type damage so your opponent can't just build one defense. She threatens anyone that goes into melee with her with huge sustained damage. She has an armor shredding ranged poke (not the highest damage ranged poke, noted, but it's still a good tool). And, importantly, she farms super fast and can easily roam and take jungle camps as well as get to mid/jungle fights fast with her speed buff. The main thing you have to do it just have Lifesteal Quints and grab a Vamp Scepter early while you build defenses vs your lane.
She has her counters like everyone does, but if you have a good top with her you're looking at ~300 CS worth of farm on a good 40min non-surrender game. She farms that well.
I just get kited and out damaged. What do you level?
W (Burnout) first. The second skill depends on the matchup. Q first if your exchanges are the more sustained variety. E if you need a stronger and safer poke.\
As for items you want lifesteal (Hydra is good and supercharges your farm) and tank items, or tank+damage items (like Frozen Mallet and Wit's End).
One VERY IMPORTANT THING that you want to do is try to hit level two first as Shyvana. Her level two damage is really high since it's 2.8 autoattacks instantly, plus whatever your burnout damage. Which is often overlooked. A lot of people aren't expecting you to take a huge chunk away from their life bar (often times it's likely to hit them for nearly half) at level two that fast. Which can win you the lane pretty much right then and there.
I just wouldn't pick her into a ranged top, Jax, Olaf, etc. She can beat Olaf but it's a weird lane. Also Yorick.
butts
+1
VizardObserverThe Duke of Ridiculous PoppycockyRegistered Userregular
Jax v Shyvana is weird. She kind of outbruises you early and if your retarded and activate E whenever you jump in your just gonna flat out lose because if you randomly e q w her she can literally out run the stun.
Jax v Shyvana is weird. She kind of outbruises you early and if your retarded and activate E whenever you jump in your just gonna flat out lose because if you randomly e q w her she can literally out run the stun.
True. Shyvana doesn't really mind if you stun her while her Burnout is up. You're still taking passive magic damage.
Cho mid vs Ryze.
Scream has seven hundred range.
All of Ryze's skills have slightly less than that.
Scream lasts two seconds minimum.
Rune prison lasts 1.75 seconds maximum.
That wasn't pretty.
It's actually really funny laning as Nunu against Jax. You want to stun me? Snowball and walk away without eating the stun. Even if you do stun me, one auto and I eat a creep. Was funny doing stuff like that to Darius. I get pulled and slowed, you get slowed as I walk away and dance.
Posts
Speaking of, got a chance to run J4+Leona earlier today. Incredibly fun to jump on someone and instagib them as Jarvers. Definitely looking forward to his next skin.
Yeah they definitely design champs to counter specific roles and such and overall improvements to the game balance and structure will have a side effect of making certain champs more or less powerful certainly.
I just don't think they really do that with the intent of changing the meta per-say. It can certainly have that effect though.
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Do you let people queue for dual roles? If not, you may wind up with a glut of people at Mid and a lack of people in the support queue. Then people will start queuing as support so they have shorter wait timers, and probably not actually wanting to play that role.
I don't see any way to implement a role queue system that improves the character selection process. Sure, it saves you a few lines of discussion at the start, but what real benefit do you get out of it?
But it's not a huge point against her as she's great at top lane and gets way more farm than she ever would as a jungler (becoming an even bigger AoE threat in teamfights).
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
Yup. Still learning.
Seems like the random group thing would get old after a while.
Which further shows that their intent is to let the meta do it's own thing for the most part.
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I'm not suggesting that the game add a role que system. I was just asking why they didn't have one given that there seems to be an established metagame of roles / lanes.
Still trying to figure out how this works, and didn't understand why role ques do not exist if the metagame is so firmly established.
Having an established meta isn't an awful thing with regard to solo Q. Increases the chances of getting a functional team. And if today's meta seems stale, its nothing on how awful the 3 I mentioned there were.
It's not bad now, since no one else seems to want to play healy support.
It's just when i get into a game with 3 people who want to play mid, and argue about it.
I mean I'll take the ip but man I've been sucking.
Yeah, that never really changes. It's so nice when someone actually asks for support in a game.
Much like ELO it wouldn't always /have/ to have ever kind of person, but if you know A wants top, B wants mid and C wants bot, why not smoosh them together and toss them with two people who either dont care or check jungle box or something.
It could just be another matchmaking filter.
I, for one, would love being able to queue up for the jungle position. Or support. Or mid when I want to practice.
Doesn't mean I have to go AP mid, or whatever. You know you'll always have one person in each lane.
I think it would adversely affect the queue times personally. People don't tend to want to play roles in equal amounts so you would have roles that have long queues (Mid and Top for example) and roles that would go pretty quickly (Jungle, Bot)
It would also add a whole new level to trolling. (Someone could say they want to queue for bot lane and then try and go mid or top in game because of the shorter queue anyways)
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Early on you had a ton of carries on every team and you blew people up as fast as you could. Itemization made AP fairly weak.
People realized that carry teams were frail so if you had a ton of AOE you could global them. So AOE meta was a thing.
Which then gave rise to all bruiser all the time to survive the AOE
Then you had Eurolane after that which essentially was designed to get the maximum amount of gold to your carry in the safest way possible so you could get them as big as possible as fast as possible. Especially designed for champions like Vayne and Kog. You kept your carry safe from the endless bruisers until they could outscale them.
Asian teams have moved the game towards a far more aggressive strategy where the general lay out is the same but you see carries that are stronger early game and build more utility and survival.
Thats like saying ELO is a huge filter, or solo vs multi-queuing. It isn't. It tries for a minute then says fuck it and starts grabbing people from elsewhere. Solo vs multiple people queuing should dramatically increase the queue, but it doesn't. There would be no increase to queue times, because it'd simply be the system doing a quick check to see if there are people, if not, it says, 'lol too bad adding to general queue' and you could drop out if you wanted at that point. Or just play normally.
People will troll regardless, making systems to stop them from trolling is pointless as they'd just do something else. So going 'omg someone could troll!!1' is... dumb? because they just do it now, 'Mid or feed' or 'omg no top' queue dodge.
You are drastically underestimating the number of people queuing for normals at any time. Next time you queue as a 4-man, ask the other team if they are a 4-man with a random, I guarantee you that they will be. That's my experience, anyways.
That's what keeps me playing at the moment. I like to play support, and assume at higher levels that role is sought out. So, maybe find a team and avoid the "i get mid. I called it first. No u." fights.
People will troll regardless, giving them even more things to troll with is silly. Especially since the proposed system wouldn't necessarily solve anything, since your solution to queue times is to bypass the system in the first place.
Basically you propose adding a system that would work a fraction of the time, and would more than likely cause more problems than it solves.
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What didn't work about it? She deals dual-type damage so your opponent can't just build one defense. She threatens anyone that goes into melee with her with huge sustained damage. She has an armor shredding ranged poke (not the highest damage ranged poke, noted, but it's still a good tool). And, importantly, she farms super fast and can easily roam and take jungle camps as well as get to mid/jungle fights fast with her speed buff. The main thing you have to do it just have Lifesteal Quints and grab a Vamp Scepter early while you build defenses vs your lane.
She has her counters like everyone does, but if you have a good top with her you're looking at ~300 CS worth of farm on a good 40min non-surrender game. She farms that well.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
Except as Sampsen just pointed out, there are millions of people playing. Millions. There will probably be at least a 2/3 chance you'll get it to work.
Unless you're saying that even though this thread is a tiny, tiny, fractional, infinitely small sample, and yet we have plenty of dedicated players to every position that frequent this thread, that some simple matchmaking on Riot's side couldn't feasibly find three or four people who want to play together in certain roles.
This would also probably take all of a hour to code in, considering they have filters for all kinds of things already.
And it isn't giving people any more options to troll then they have already. It isn't like it would put a giant OMG MID flag on your champ select window, it'd just toss people together who have a hankering for a certain spot.
I am tempted to blow a ton of IP on flat damage or flat AP as a gimmick for 3v3. But I only have enough IP for one of them. Which is more entertaining? Putting it all into AD gives about 21.7 bonus damage, which means that somebody like Jax would have like 90 AD at level 1 after buying some damage item.
THIS IS WAY MORE IMPRESSIVE THAN A PENTAKILL
I'm saying it's disproportionate. Sure millions of available people means that for a single game it would queue pretty quick, but the problem is that it's trying to match up thousands of games. Basically the system already has decent queue times without your proposed system, and you think that adding another layer of selection (with a time range before it ignores the role system) is not going to impact the queue times?
I don't see how that is feasible, adding any additional filter and giving it a time frame before it ignores that filter to broaden the search by it's very existence adds to the current queue times where such a system does not exist.
And once people figure out which spots have smaller queue times (As there will be some disparity, unless you are saying that an equal number of people want to play support as the number who want to play mid) then they will start queuing with those a a preference just to cut their wait down as much as possible. You already see that sort of thing on a small scale in games like WoW where tank and healer queue times are incredibly short and the more popular role of DPS is incredibly long, and that's not even on the same scale.
Which would ultimately lead to the current situation anyways where people just call out what they want and fight over it.
Now your system will admittingly create some instances where it could work well and things go smoothly, however the problems it causes personally seems like it wouldn't be worth the extra overall queue times.
Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
W (Burnout) first. The second skill depends on the matchup. Q first if your exchanges are the more sustained variety. E if you need a stronger and safer poke.\
As for items you want lifesteal (Hydra is good and supercharges your farm) and tank items, or tank+damage items (like Frozen Mallet and Wit's End).
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
We were really disappointed in his lack of manliness.
I just wouldn't pick her into a ranged top, Jax, Olaf, etc. She can beat Olaf but it's a weird lane. Also Yorick.
True. Shyvana doesn't really mind if you stun her while her Burnout is up. You're still taking passive magic damage.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
Picked it into Kat mid.
then went trolololol all the way to an 8/0 game. Then bot dropped the ball hard and we had a 24/3 Trist to go against.
Scream has seven hundred range.
All of Ryze's skills have slightly less than that.
Scream lasts two seconds minimum.
Rune prison lasts 1.75 seconds maximum.
That wasn't pretty.
It's actually really funny laning as Nunu against Jax. You want to stun me? Snowball and walk away without eating the stun. Even if you do stun me, one auto and I eat a creep. Was funny doing stuff like that to Darius. I get pulled and slowed, you get slowed as I walk away and dance.
Because I just tried it and it worked really well.