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Canadian Politics: The North shall rise again?

Its been a while since the last Canadian Politics thread closed, but something came up that I would like to discuss and get the views of other board members on.

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/1741805410001

This is some sort of Canadian Glenn Beck / Bill O'Reilly type hit piece on First Nations Chiefs and on the payments made to Canadian reserves and thier administrators. Some family members posted it, and I have begun trying to dissect it for them, but would appreciate any further points.

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  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    I'm not going to watch some Fox-News-North bullshit. However, to answer your question, I did read this piece in the Globe and Mail this morning, that gives some interesting perspective on the issue.

    Truth is more complex than Attawapiskat audit can tell us

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  • PhistiPhisti Registered User regular
    Ezra Levant is a horrible person, but that aside there are some significant corruption problems with the First Nations. As my wife and her family are more than willing to tell / show me what's going on with FN group (Algonkian - Golden Lake). However, the audit by Deloitte is basically ragging on the Feds for not properly overseeing their tax dollars not Attawapiskat doing things they weren't supposed to. Considering that the total funds given to Attawapiskat total about $8300 / person / year for education, health care, housing, sanitation etc etc etc... that's really not a whole lot of money being spent. Heck BC spends about $10k / person / year on the same thing.

  • saint2esaint2e Registered User regular
    This was a Global News report from a year ago:



    The same team tried to go back earlier this week to do an update and this resulted:

    http://www.globalnational.com/pages/blogs.aspx?id=6442784673&blogid=6442450996

    I really have no love lost for Theresa Spence and don't understand why she's given so much attention, much less being called "inspiring". I mean, if you call her inspiring, you should start worshipping Harper because she's essentially the FN equivalent.

    My "favourite" quote from the youtube video above is when they asked Spence why all the resources that were sent to Attawapiskat were still sitting in a room somewhere, not distributed is: "It's hard to get volunteers". Really? Ridiculous. Way to live up to the stereotype, guys.

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  • VanderbrentVanderbrent Registered User regular
    Chief Spence isn't going to the PM's meeting because the GG isn't there

    This seems really stupid to me. Why wouldn't you attend the meeting, the important one is there. The GG can't really do anything, while the PM is effectively the one who sets policy (especially in the way Harper runs the government).

    Caveman Paws
  • NosfNosf Registered User regular
    edited January 2013
    Yeah, there's some weird notion they can bypass the Canadian government and talk directly to the Crown who will uh, do what I have no idea. Apparently the idle no more set want some things relating to university now too,

    "The Algonquin and Mohawk languages be taught each semester, and eventually that they be recognized as minor subjects
    • An increase in scholarships available to indigenous students
    • An ‘indigenous portal’ be created on the University of Ottawa website that would include a statement recognizing the campus was built on ‘non-ceded Algonquin nation territory’
    • A commitment to recognize the Algonquin nation on campus through such things a building names"

    Spence herself is a con artist, on one hand they seem to want to use her current fame to get some things, on the other they seem to want to keep her at arm's length because they know she's going to self destruct. The whole thing is sort of shenanigans; a family of 5 would get $55k per year from the federal government. The community also gets a provincial payout for 4.5m or so per year. They also recieve royalties from DeBeer's for the nearby diamond mine. What confuses me is what local business is there? What can they possibly do up there? On one hand, ancestral lands? On the other, how about joining the modern world down a little further south where not everything has to be flow into your community?

    Nosf on
  • BlazeFireBlazeFire Registered User regular
    Can I say that I wish the media would stop saying "Hunger strike" and instead say "Solid food strike"?

    Ragnar Dragonfyre
  • blkmageblkmage Registered User regular
    edited January 2013
    The issue of talking directly to the Crown isn't even particularly accurate. The idea is that the First Nations are in treaties with the Crown, which is correct and not in dispute. The problem comes from misunderstanding what "the Crown" means, largely because the concept has evolved since the time the treaties were written and also because most people don't understand the role of the Crown in the modern context.

    The desire of the First Nations to want to meet with the Crown isn't inherently ridiculous because of the treaties. But today, the Crown exercises its executive powers through the Crown in Council, that is through the Cabinet. Essentially, the Governor General has no power to act on his own anyway, since most of the executive powers he has can only be used on the advice of Cabinet (and the Prime Minister). So, in fact, meeting with the Prime Minister or the Minister of Aboriginal Affairs is "talking to the Crown".

    Now if what they want is symbolism, then wanting the GG there kind of makes sense. But the GG doesn't have any say over policy and if there is going to be policy or political discussion, then the GG shouldn't be there.

    blkmage on
  • NosfNosf Registered User regular

    It sounds like she wants to back out at this point.

  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    I can barely tolerate reading the non-editorials from the Sun. No way i
    Nosf wrote: »
    Yeah, there's some weird notion they can bypass the Canadian government and talk directly to the Crown who will uh, do what I have no idea. Apparently the idle no more set want some things relating to university now too,

    "The Algonquin and Mohawk languages be taught each semester, and eventually that they be recognized as minor subjects
    • An increase in scholarships available to indigenous students
    • An ‘indigenous portal’ be created on the University of Ottawa website that would include a statement recognizing the campus was built on ‘non-ceded Algonquin nation territory’
    • A commitment to recognize the Algonquin nation on campus through such things a building names"

    Spence herself is a con artist, on one hand they seem to want to use her current fame to get some things, on the other they seem to want to keep her at arm's length because they know she's going to self destruct. The whole thing is sort of shenanigans; a family of 5 would get $55k per year from the federal government. The community also gets a provincial payout for 4.5m or so per year. They also recieve royalties from DeBeer's for the nearby diamond mine. What confuses me is what local business is there? What can they possibly do up there? On one hand, ancestral lands? On the other, how about joining the modern world down a little further south where not everything has to be flow into your community?

    Wait, non-ceded Algonquin nation territory?

    If I remember my grade 8 Canadian history on New France, the reason that french missionaries didn't try to convert the Algonquin was because they were nomadic and didn't establish long term settlements in any given area.

    How can you try and make territorial claims to a fixed location when you can't really establish borders beyond a vague "yeah I'm pretty sure Grandfather Pine wandered over there somewhere 300 years ago."

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    Nosf wrote: »
    On one hand, ancestral lands? On the other, how about joining the modern world down a little further south where not everything has to be flow into your community?
    Its almost as if they didn't have a choice in the matter and got assigned to live permanently on what was originally a remote fishing camp.

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  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    Nosf wrote: »
    On one hand, ancestral lands? On the other, how about joining the modern world down a little further south where not everything has to be flow into your community?
    Its almost as if they didn't have a choice in the matter and got assigned to live permanently on what was originally a remote fishing camp.

    Yeah, it's not as simple as saying "Just move out".

    But the question remains about whether this community is sustainable. It sounds like the diamond mine supplies a tiny percentage of what the band requires to function. And the mine employs only 60 people. What other work is there available?

  • NosfNosf Registered User regular

    One of the articles I read suggested they can't get jobs at the mine because it requires a good bit of training, and no one bothers to get an education.

  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited January 2013
    Those lazy indians, amirite?

    Der Waffle Mous on
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  • Ragnar DragonfyreRagnar Dragonfyre Registered User regular
    edited January 2013
    Nova_C wrote: »
    Nosf wrote: »
    On one hand, ancestral lands? On the other, how about joining the modern world down a little further south where not everything has to be flow into your community?
    Its almost as if they didn't have a choice in the matter and got assigned to live permanently on what was originally a remote fishing camp.

    Yeah, it's not as simple as saying "Just move out".

    But the question remains about whether this community is sustainable. It sounds like the diamond mine supplies a tiny percentage of what the band requires to function. And the mine employs only 60 people. What other work is there available?

    Why isn't it? It's that simple for anyone else.

    The issue is, if I understand correctly, that if you leave the reserve you lose a lot of the benefits of being an aboriginal. So a lot of them don't want to leave because they don't want give up those benefits.

    I don't necessarily blame them, but let's not mince words. They can just move out.

    Ragnar Dragonfyre on
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  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited January 2013
    Nova_C wrote: »
    Nosf wrote: »
    On one hand, ancestral lands? On the other, how about joining the modern world down a little further south where not everything has to be flow into your community?
    Its almost as if they didn't have a choice in the matter and got assigned to live permanently on what was originally a remote fishing camp.

    Yeah, it's not as simple as saying "Just move out".

    But the question remains about whether this community is sustainable. It sounds like the diamond mine supplies a tiny percentage of what the band requires to function. And the mine employs only 60 people. What other work is there available?

    Why isn't it? It's that simple for anyone else.

    The issue is, if I understand correctly, that if you leave the reserve you lose a lot of the benefits of being an aboriginal. So a lot of them don't want to leave because they don't want give up those benefits.

    I don't necessarily blame them, but let's not mince words. They can just move out.
    Among other things, it basically means breaking up the basic family unit. Extended families are a big thing.

    So basically you're telling to join into an overculture that looks down on them, leaving behind their own culture, and their family, and some pretty negligible financial benefits because the sovereign entity that they signed treaties with is half-assing their responsibilities after spending more than a century fucking them over.

    Der Waffle Mous on
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  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    Nova_C wrote: »
    Nosf wrote: »
    On one hand, ancestral lands? On the other, how about joining the modern world down a little further south where not everything has to be flow into your community?
    Its almost as if they didn't have a choice in the matter and got assigned to live permanently on what was originally a remote fishing camp.

    Yeah, it's not as simple as saying "Just move out".

    But the question remains about whether this community is sustainable. It sounds like the diamond mine supplies a tiny percentage of what the band requires to function. And the mine employs only 60 people. What other work is there available?

    Why isn't it? It's that simple for anyone else.

    The issue is, if I understand correctly, that if you leave the reserve you lose a lot of the benefits of being an aboriginal. So a lot of them don't want to leave because they don't want give up those benefits.

    I don't necessarily blame them, but let's not mince words. They can just move out.

    Move to a different city when you have no money, no job lined up, no means of transport, in many cases no formal education, and you'll lose the government benefits you're all but dependent on to boot.

    They may not be physically chained down to the reserves, but that doesn't mean "they can just move out".

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  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    Also, we have a dumb, prideful attachment to the bits of land that we can call "ours", no matter how shitty they may be.

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  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    And don't think for a second that natives don't face tremendous racism. I know exactly what I am talking about. I am white with adopted native siblings. The way the same fucking people treat them versus me is astonishing. That is a major roadblock to progress outside of the reserves.

    Richy is right.

    CanadianWolverine
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Yeah, you can question the sustainability of the community while still acknowledging that they'd need alot of help to make it elsewhere.

  • KalkinoKalkino Buttons Londres Registered User regular
    The talking to the monarch as Crown is a pretty common idea amongst indigenous people for what it is worth. Most Maori tribes in NZ have the same view with their treaty relationships with the Crown

    Freedom for the Northern Isles!
  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    edited January 2013
    I'm not even sure sustainability is even a consideration when it comes to reserves.

    I live in a reserve that's practically a Montreal suburb. Its economically stable and relatively prosperous as far as reserves go, but a large part of that is essentially from flouting provincial and federal laws IRT cigarettes and gambling.

    Der Waffle Mous on
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  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    From a government's point of view, I'm pretty sure the aim of the reserves is not "sustainable" or "beneficial" so much as "cheap" and "easy".

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    CanadianWolverine
  • MuzzmuzzMuzzmuzz Registered User regular
    Yeah, the southern reserves have it way better than their remote northern counterparts. Not only are job opportunities more plentiful in towns surrounding them, they have the added benefit of being able to attracting customers from said surrounding towns. Even if you take away the 'perks' of cigarettes and gambling, a reserve in southern Ontario is going to fare better than one in a Northern Ontario reserve that is accessible only by plane.

    CanadianWolverine
  • NosfNosf Registered User regular
    edited January 2013
    Went to college with someone who fled the reserve, said it was slow death. Local band (when I lived in that town) was great about paying their bills (worked at a lumber yard that dealt with them) and put up some nice community buildings but the reserve itself was crummy; drove through it a few times when I worked for Hydro and had to do some painting for their transformer boxes. Saw something in the paper that INM is going to have a thing at one of the busiest intersections downtown; can't say that sort of thing builds any sympathy - it just screws over the average person who happened to be downtown at lunch.

    Nosf on
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  • hawkboxhawkbox Registered User regular
    Nosf wrote: »
    Went to college with someone who fled the reserve, said it was slow death. Local band (when I lived in that town) was great about paying their bills (worked at a lumber yard that dealt with them) and put up some nice community buildings but the reserve itself was crummy; drove through it a few times when I worked for Hydro and had to do some painting for their transformer boxes. Saw something in the paper that INM is going to have a thing at one of the busiest intersections downtown; can't say that sort of thing builds any sympathy - it just screws over the average person who happened to be downtown at lunch.


    No one gives a shit about them otherwise. What sympathy do they have in the first place? At least this gets peoples attention.

    Caulk Bite 6
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    hawkbox wrote: »
    Nosf wrote: »
    Went to college with someone who fled the reserve, said it was slow death. Local band (when I lived in that town) was great about paying their bills (worked at a lumber yard that dealt with them) and put up some nice community buildings but the reserve itself was crummy; drove through it a few times when I worked for Hydro and had to do some painting for their transformer boxes. Saw something in the paper that INM is going to have a thing at one of the busiest intersections downtown; can't say that sort of thing builds any sympathy - it just screws over the average person who happened to be downtown at lunch.

    No one gives a shit about them otherwise. What sympathy do they have in the first place? At least this gets peoples attention.

    That attention is "fucking indians" and that's it.

  • saint2esaint2e Registered User regular
    And the attention is also bringing down the #idlenomore movement, which saddled itself up with Spence.

    Latest I heard was the GG was going to be at the meeting with the first nation chiefs. Glad it's not a meeting with just Spence herself.

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  • blkmageblkmage Registered User regular
    edited January 2013
    I believe the current plan is policy meetings with the PM and cabinet ministers at the Langevin Block in the afternoon followed by a ceremonial meeting with GG at Rideau Hall in the evening.

    blkmage on
  • hawkboxhawkbox Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    Nosf wrote: »
    Went to college with someone who fled the reserve, said it was slow death. Local band (when I lived in that town) was great about paying their bills (worked at a lumber yard that dealt with them) and put up some nice community buildings but the reserve itself was crummy; drove through it a few times when I worked for Hydro and had to do some painting for their transformer boxes. Saw something in the paper that INM is going to have a thing at one of the busiest intersections downtown; can't say that sort of thing builds any sympathy - it just screws over the average person who happened to be downtown at lunch.

    No one gives a shit about them otherwise. What sympathy do they have in the first place? At least this gets peoples attention.

    That attention is "fucking indians" and that's it.

    And how is that any different than how people normally treat them?

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    hawkbox wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    Nosf wrote: »
    Went to college with someone who fled the reserve, said it was slow death. Local band (when I lived in that town) was great about paying their bills (worked at a lumber yard that dealt with them) and put up some nice community buildings but the reserve itself was crummy; drove through it a few times when I worked for Hydro and had to do some painting for their transformer boxes. Saw something in the paper that INM is going to have a thing at one of the busiest intersections downtown; can't say that sort of thing builds any sympathy - it just screws over the average person who happened to be downtown at lunch.

    No one gives a shit about them otherwise. What sympathy do they have in the first place? At least this gets peoples attention.

    That attention is "fucking indians" and that's it.

    And how is that any different than how people normally treat them?

    People don't normally treat them any way at all. People just don't think about them at all most of the time.

    You are correct that they are brining attention to the first nations community. They are just bringing negative attention to it.

  • Al_watAl_wat Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    Nosf wrote: »
    Went to college with someone who fled the reserve, said it was slow death. Local band (when I lived in that town) was great about paying their bills (worked at a lumber yard that dealt with them) and put up some nice community buildings but the reserve itself was crummy; drove through it a few times when I worked for Hydro and had to do some painting for their transformer boxes. Saw something in the paper that INM is going to have a thing at one of the busiest intersections downtown; can't say that sort of thing builds any sympathy - it just screws over the average person who happened to be downtown at lunch.

    No one gives a shit about them otherwise. What sympathy do they have in the first place? At least this gets peoples attention.

    That attention is "fucking indians" and that's it.

    And how is that any different than how people normally treat them?

    People don't normally treat them any way at all. People just don't think about them at all most of the time.*

    You are correct that they are brining attention to the first nations community. They are just bringing negative attention to it.

    *(In Toronto)

    In other places people think of them all the time... like say, Calgary or Edmonton. They just aren't that visible in Toronto compared to other cities in Canada.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Al_wat wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    Nosf wrote: »
    Went to college with someone who fled the reserve, said it was slow death. Local band (when I lived in that town) was great about paying their bills (worked at a lumber yard that dealt with them) and put up some nice community buildings but the reserve itself was crummy; drove through it a few times when I worked for Hydro and had to do some painting for their transformer boxes. Saw something in the paper that INM is going to have a thing at one of the busiest intersections downtown; can't say that sort of thing builds any sympathy - it just screws over the average person who happened to be downtown at lunch.

    No one gives a shit about them otherwise. What sympathy do they have in the first place? At least this gets peoples attention.

    That attention is "fucking indians" and that's it.

    And how is that any different than how people normally treat them?

    People don't normally treat them any way at all. People just don't think about them at all most of the time.*

    You are correct that they are brining attention to the first nations community. They are just bringing negative attention to it.

    *(In Toronto)

    In other places people think of them all the time... like say, Calgary or Edmonton. They just aren't that visible in Toronto compared to other cities in Canada.

    In most places around Toronto too. And Montreal as well.

    There's many places around the country where first nations people have basically no presence.

  • hawkboxhawkbox Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    Nosf wrote: »
    Went to college with someone who fled the reserve, said it was slow death. Local band (when I lived in that town) was great about paying their bills (worked at a lumber yard that dealt with them) and put up some nice community buildings but the reserve itself was crummy; drove through it a few times when I worked for Hydro and had to do some painting for their transformer boxes. Saw something in the paper that INM is going to have a thing at one of the busiest intersections downtown; can't say that sort of thing builds any sympathy - it just screws over the average person who happened to be downtown at lunch.

    No one gives a shit about them otherwise. What sympathy do they have in the first place? At least this gets peoples attention.

    That attention is "fucking indians" and that's it.

    And how is that any different than how people normally treat them?

    People don't normally treat them any way at all. People just don't think about them at all most of the time.

    You are correct that they are brining attention to the first nations community. They are just bringing negative attention to it.

    So then how do they bring positive attention? You're so full of answers after all.

  • saint2esaint2e Registered User regular
    hawkbox wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    Nosf wrote: »
    Went to college with someone who fled the reserve, said it was slow death. Local band (when I lived in that town) was great about paying their bills (worked at a lumber yard that dealt with them) and put up some nice community buildings but the reserve itself was crummy; drove through it a few times when I worked for Hydro and had to do some painting for their transformer boxes. Saw something in the paper that INM is going to have a thing at one of the busiest intersections downtown; can't say that sort of thing builds any sympathy - it just screws over the average person who happened to be downtown at lunch.

    No one gives a shit about them otherwise. What sympathy do they have in the first place? At least this gets peoples attention.

    That attention is "fucking indians" and that's it.

    And how is that any different than how people normally treat them?

    People don't normally treat them any way at all. People just don't think about them at all most of the time.

    You are correct that they are brining attention to the first nations community. They are just bringing negative attention to it.

    So then how do they bring positive attention? You're so full of answers after all.

    Actually doing something productive with the money/supplies it's given would be a good start.

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  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    saint2e wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    Nosf wrote: »
    Went to college with someone who fled the reserve, said it was slow death. Local band (when I lived in that town) was great about paying their bills (worked at a lumber yard that dealt with them) and put up some nice community buildings but the reserve itself was crummy; drove through it a few times when I worked for Hydro and had to do some painting for their transformer boxes. Saw something in the paper that INM is going to have a thing at one of the busiest intersections downtown; can't say that sort of thing builds any sympathy - it just screws over the average person who happened to be downtown at lunch.

    No one gives a shit about them otherwise. What sympathy do they have in the first place? At least this gets peoples attention.

    That attention is "fucking indians" and that's it.

    And how is that any different than how people normally treat them?

    People don't normally treat them any way at all. People just don't think about them at all most of the time.

    You are correct that they are brining attention to the first nations community. They are just bringing negative attention to it.

    So then how do they bring positive attention? You're so full of answers after all.

    Actually doing something productive with the money/supplies it's given would be a good start.

    I'm sure lots of productive things are already done and produced with the money, just nobody really hears about them. They should hire some PR firm to help them publicize them and get them little blurbs in papers / news stations that are close to the reserve.

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  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    saint2e wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    Nosf wrote: »
    Went to college with someone who fled the reserve, said it was slow death. Local band (when I lived in that town) was great about paying their bills (worked at a lumber yard that dealt with them) and put up some nice community buildings but the reserve itself was crummy; drove through it a few times when I worked for Hydro and had to do some painting for their transformer boxes. Saw something in the paper that INM is going to have a thing at one of the busiest intersections downtown; can't say that sort of thing builds any sympathy - it just screws over the average person who happened to be downtown at lunch.

    No one gives a shit about them otherwise. What sympathy do they have in the first place? At least this gets peoples attention.

    That attention is "fucking indians" and that's it.

    And how is that any different than how people normally treat them?

    People don't normally treat them any way at all. People just don't think about them at all most of the time.

    You are correct that they are brining attention to the first nations community. They are just bringing negative attention to it.

    So then how do they bring positive attention? You're so full of answers after all.

    Actually doing something productive with the money/supplies it's given would be a good start.

    I'm sure lots of productive things are already done and produced with the money, just nobody really hears about them. They should hire some PR firm to help them publicize them and get them little blurbs in papers / news stations that are close to the reserve.

    I'm sorry I can't hear you over the pink cadillac I drive to the liquor store to cash my welfare checks.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    hawkbox wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    Nosf wrote: »
    Went to college with someone who fled the reserve, said it was slow death. Local band (when I lived in that town) was great about paying their bills (worked at a lumber yard that dealt with them) and put up some nice community buildings but the reserve itself was crummy; drove through it a few times when I worked for Hydro and had to do some painting for their transformer boxes. Saw something in the paper that INM is going to have a thing at one of the busiest intersections downtown; can't say that sort of thing builds any sympathy - it just screws over the average person who happened to be downtown at lunch.

    No one gives a shit about them otherwise. What sympathy do they have in the first place? At least this gets peoples attention.

    That attention is "fucking indians" and that's it.

    And how is that any different than how people normally treat them?

    People don't normally treat them any way at all. People just don't think about them at all most of the time.

    You are correct that they are brining attention to the first nations community. They are just bringing negative attention to it.

    So then how do they bring positive attention? You're so full of answers after all.

    Who says I'm full of answers?

    All I'm saying is tons of Canadians have no contact with first nations on a regular basis. Except for protests like this.

    It's publicity, but it's not good publicity.

    Shadowhope
  • Der Waffle MousDer Waffle Mous Blame this on the misfortune of your birth. New Yark, New Yark.Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    Nosf wrote: »
    Went to college with someone who fled the reserve, said it was slow death. Local band (when I lived in that town) was great about paying their bills (worked at a lumber yard that dealt with them) and put up some nice community buildings but the reserve itself was crummy; drove through it a few times when I worked for Hydro and had to do some painting for their transformer boxes. Saw something in the paper that INM is going to have a thing at one of the busiest intersections downtown; can't say that sort of thing builds any sympathy - it just screws over the average person who happened to be downtown at lunch.

    No one gives a shit about them otherwise. What sympathy do they have in the first place? At least this gets peoples attention.

    That attention is "fucking indians" and that's it.

    And how is that any different than how people normally treat them?

    People don't normally treat them any way at all. People just don't think about them at all most of the time.

    You are correct that they are brining attention to the first nations community. They are just bringing negative attention to it.

    So then how do they bring positive attention? You're so full of answers after all.

    Who says I'm full of answers?

    All I'm saying is tons of Canadians have no contact with first nations on a regular basis. Except for protests like this.

    It's publicity, but it's not good publicity.
    The whole point is to get people to stop frigging pretending the problem doesn't exist.

    Of course people are going to get angry.

    zaku.png
    Steam PSN: DerWaffleMous Origin: DerWaffleMous Bnet: DerWaffle#1682
    CanadianWolverine
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited January 2013
    shryke wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    Nosf wrote: »
    Went to college with someone who fled the reserve, said it was slow death. Local band (when I lived in that town) was great about paying their bills (worked at a lumber yard that dealt with them) and put up some nice community buildings but the reserve itself was crummy; drove through it a few times when I worked for Hydro and had to do some painting for their transformer boxes. Saw something in the paper that INM is going to have a thing at one of the busiest intersections downtown; can't say that sort of thing builds any sympathy - it just screws over the average person who happened to be downtown at lunch.

    No one gives a shit about them otherwise. What sympathy do they have in the first place? At least this gets peoples attention.

    That attention is "fucking indians" and that's it.

    And how is that any different than how people normally treat them?

    People don't normally treat them any way at all. People just don't think about them at all most of the time.

    You are correct that they are brining attention to the first nations community. They are just bringing negative attention to it.

    So then how do they bring positive attention? You're so full of answers after all.

    Who says I'm full of answers?

    All I'm saying is tons of Canadians have no contact with first nations on a regular basis. Except for protests like this.

    It's publicity, but it's not good publicity.
    The whole point is to get people to stop frigging pretending the problem doesn't exist.

    Of course people are going to get angry.

    They aren't pretending the problem doesn't exist, they don't know what the problem even is. And frankly, are only aware it exists in the vaguest sense.

    My impression is that there's tons of Canadians who have basically no contact with first nation's people (or if they do, it's not in a way that makes them aware). The only time they do, it's when they are blocking a road or something and then they are just annoyed by them. They have some idea that reservations suck, but no idea beyond the vaguest what is actually going on. Beyond that, there's many who think "if it sucks, why don't they just leave?".

    [That's been my impression from southern ontarians, quebecois and east-coasters I know or from what I've seen personally living in those places. Didn't meet any when I lived in Edmonton, but I wasn't there super long, so if someone else says it happens, I'll believe them. The people I met who had the most contact with first nations were the northern ontarians and manitobans.]


    If you want to get attention to the issue with those people, you need to bridge the information gap. The suggestion of a media campaign above seems like a good one. Because most people being effected by a protest in, like, downtown Toronto or on the train tracks between Toronto and Montreal have no fucking idea what the situation actually is. All they know is these people are annoying the fuck out of them and screwing up their days. That's not going to help anything. No one comes way from that with a better idea what their grievances actually are, let alone with any sympathy.

    If the idea is to create political change, you need to play politics.

    shryke on
  • CorvusCorvus . VancouverRegistered User regular
    edited January 2013
    shryke wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    hawkbox wrote: »
    Nosf wrote: »
    Went to college with someone who fled the reserve, said it was slow death. Local band (when I lived in that town) was great about paying their bills (worked at a lumber yard that dealt with them) and put up some nice community buildings but the reserve itself was crummy; drove through it a few times when I worked for Hydro and had to do some painting for their transformer boxes. Saw something in the paper that INM is going to have a thing at one of the busiest intersections downtown; can't say that sort of thing builds any sympathy - it just screws over the average person who happened to be downtown at lunch.

    No one gives a shit about them otherwise. What sympathy do they have in the first place? At least this gets peoples attention.

    That attention is "fucking indians" and that's it.

    And how is that any different than how people normally treat them?

    People don't normally treat them any way at all. People just don't think about them at all most of the time.

    You are correct that they are brining attention to the first nations community. They are just bringing negative attention to it.

    So then how do they bring positive attention? You're so full of answers after all.

    Who says I'm full of answers?

    All I'm saying is tons of Canadians have no contact with first nations on a regular basis. Except for protests like this.

    It's publicity, but it's not good publicity.
    The whole point is to get people to stop frigging pretending the problem doesn't exist.

    Of course people are going to get angry.

    Making the general public angry is not going to make those same people help you pressure the government to give you what you want. It's going to make them hope the government suppresses the protest with force.

    Pissing off people who you should be trying to make your allies is a strategy failure.

    On the other topic, I can see where movement is going with the appeal to the GG and the crown, but again, this is a strategy failure and a failure to recognize the truth of who holds power in Canada. It's a strategy that is doomed to disappoint.



    Corvus on
    :so_raven:
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