The new forums will be named Coin Return (based on the most recent vote)! You can check on the status and timeline of the transition to the new forums here.
The Guiding Principles and New Rules document is now in effect.
Wii controls-For Better or For Worse?
Nickle
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
Feel free to lock this thread if it gets too flamed up.
Recently I've been observing the polarizing effect of the Wii controls, both among reviewers and players. I'm of the impression that alot of people expect every Wii game to be 'Babys first book' easy, simply because of the control style, and review scores are reflecting this. It seems to me that the Wii is not only capable of the simplest controls, but also the most complicated, and that some people seem to be underestimating this. Sure, there's the niche of Wii games that you can play with your grandmother, but it would be completely unfair (not to mention boring) to expect every game to appeal to everyone.
I find it increasingly ironic to hear cries of 'the Wii doesn't appeal to hardcore players' and 'the controls aren't simple enough' from basically the same people. Think about the first time you played, say, a Tony Hawk game. Even though you'd played with the Playstation pad for years, that game had a pretty steep learning curve. Sure, you could argue that the Ubertricks for SSX Blur are tough to perform, but so was your first fireball in Street Fighter. It's just unfair to expect every game that comes out on the Wii to be so simple a 5-year old could play it, just because it's possible.
But really, it's not about what I think, I wanted to know what everyone else thinks about motion controls being implemented in games. Should they be simpler, or should we expect more hardcore fare? Should every sports game really be 1:1? Would you want to play standing up all the time? I'm not a Nintendo 'fanboy' by any means, I just love videogames. Admittedly, I do love my Wii, and this was mostly inspired by disparity in the reviews for SSX Blur, Sonic, and Tiger Woods, (All good games, IMO) but I am also still a huge fan of 'traditional' gaming (OLOL buttons R 4 sissies) and look forward to the possibilities presented by the 360 and PS3 as well. That's just not what this thread is about.
TL;DR - How do you feel about Motion Controls, their current state, and what's to come?
Recently I've been observing the polarizing effect of the Wii controls, both among reviewers and players. I'm of the impression that alot of people expect every Wii game to be 'Babys first book' easy, simply because of the control style, and review scores are reflecting this. It seems to me that the Wii is not only capable of the simplest controls, but also the most complicated, and that some people seem to be underestimating this. Sure, there's the niche of Wii games that you can play with your grandmother, but it would be completely unfair (not to mention boring) to expect every game to appeal to everyone.
I find it increasingly ironic to hear cries of 'the Wii doesn't appeal to hardcore players' and 'the controls aren't simple enough' from basically the same people. Think about the first time you played, say, a Tony Hawk game. Even though you'd played with the Playstation pad for years, that game had a pretty steep learning curve. Sure, you could argue that the Ubertricks for SSX Blur are tough to perform, but so was your first fireball in Street Fighter. It's just unfair to expect every game that comes out on the Wii to be so simple a 5-year old could play it, just because it's possible.
But really, it's not about what I think, I wanted to know what everyone else thinks about motion controls being implemented in games. Should they be simpler, or should we expect more hardcore fare? Should every sports game really be 1:1? Would you want to play standing up all the time? I'm not a Nintendo 'fanboy' by any means, I just love videogames. Admittedly, I do love my Wii, and this was mostly inspired by disparity in the reviews for SSX Blur, Sonic, and Tiger Woods, (All good games, IMO) but I am also still a huge fan of 'traditional' gaming (OLOL buttons R 4 sissies) and look forward to the possibilities presented by the 360 and PS3 as well. That's just not what this thread is about.
TL;DR - How do you feel about Motion Controls, their current state, and what's to come?
Xbox/PSN/NNID/Steam: NickleDL | 3DS: 0731-4750-6906
Nickle on
0
Posts
If a game has motion controls even if they are sorta wonky and unnecessary I will probably try it because it feels pretty cool.
Sometimes you just wanna sit back and play some games.
The instant I picked up a Wiimote and played wii sports I thought "Wow, wouldnt it be great if you could make a tennis game where if you were good at tennis you'd be good at the game"
This is the great weakness of motion control, the minute I picked up that controller I thought, wow, if only there was a better one. People are so aware of how motion works, that anyone can immediately think of how it could be done better. I dont mean they know how to design a more complex and feature accurate wiimote but they can see the features and accuracy they would like it to have.
So my conclusion is, no, Wii games shouldnt all be for your gran. Unless your gran does the activity they simulate. The problem is I just dont think the wiimote is a powerful and accurate enough control to do it.
Normal range of possible controls:
shit|
|awesome
The Wii expands this in both directions. Horrible controls can be the worst thing we've ever seen, but great controls will but any standard game/controller to shame.
Pokemon Safari - Sneasel, Pawniard, ????
It reallys shakes the way you play a game and I love them. It's not just the motion control either, the pointer (not strictly part of the tilt sensors etc) is an excellent addition.
PSN: SirGrinchX
Oculus Rift: Sir_Grinch
You make it sound like the Wii doesn't scratch that itch.
I think what you meant to say was "Sometimes you want what you are comfortable with and have been enjoying for years". Because you do. I do too. But, if the Wii can prove itself, you could be looking at the abolishment of the standard controller in 10 years or so.
Paradigms shift slowly.
猿も木から落ちる
I agree fully -- I haven't seen review disparity this consistently wide in, like, ever. Blur is one of my favorite Wii titles, and I can't imagine how anyone can say the controls are bad (aside from Ubertricks, which are YMMV for a lot of people), but it did take me some time to get used to them. I hate to bring up the comparison, but to me I always think back to learning to use an analog stick. For some reason I remember Parasite Eve as one of the first titles that I used the new analog PS1 controller on. I remeber trying to click back and forth between Dpad and analog, and I said to myself, "This is way too clumsy. I don't think I'll ever get used to this."
So in a way, this is a good development -- it's forcing people to ignore the goddamn review scores and actually read the text of the review, or even better, to try the freaking game and make up their own freaking minds.
You do?
I've sneezed and accidentally killed something.
Pokemon Safari - Sneasel, Pawniard, ????
In Sonic and the Secret Rings, I was initially a bit hesitant about the motion controls. But I'm now about five hours in, and I'm totally sold on them. I really think that the game would suffer without them. The controls are responsive and intuitive when you get used to them (and get Sonic powered-up).
Raving Rabbids is the other game that has sold me on motion controls, but for a different reason: party games are a lot more fun when you are more active.
Still, I'm not sure the controls will work for all genres. I'm not sold on the Wiimote for FPSes yet, and I can't imagine a traditional fighting game working too well either.
Developers need the choice because, and let's be honest here, not every game lends itself well to motion control. For example, I don't want to play Front Mission with motion control as my only option for navigating the menus. I just want to play with my big stompy mechs and I can navigate the menus faster with a d-pad and buttons.
On a similar note, even games that do lend themselves to some motion controls don't always lend themselves well to all motion controls. Take Twilight Princess, for example. I love using the Wii remote for aiming, but I don't like it for sword slashes. I'd much prefer a button option for sowrd slashes and shielf bashes because they're more responsive, and unless my movements actually influence Link's they don't feel right. I can just wiggle the remote like a maniac and he's slicing up a room of enemies. That's not motion control. That's a button press being activated by an accelerometer.
Yeah, you don't have to shake it hard at all. If you do, your Wiimote is buggy.
But early in the game, you have a delay between homing attacks, which initially made me think that it wasn't registering all the time. Then I worked out what was going on.
Later on, you end up with a power-up to reduce the delay between homing attacks.
That was my point really. It seems alot of people, such as reviews, are trying to hold every game to the same 'pick-up-and-play' standard set by Wii Sports. For instance, many reviews for SSX Blur were docked points simply because the controls weren't simple to learn, or intuitive enough. One could argue that hitting the square button for a flip trick in Tony Hawk isn't intuitive at all (unless, like me, you've been addicted for years. Then you hit the square button when you jump in any game).
I just think it's unfair to judge the games based on the fact that 'Wii games are supposed to be simple'. Crappy controls are crappy controls, but I (and many friends) have found Blur's controls to work wonderfully. You can't chalk that up to poor programming of the controls, but rather each person's ability to adapt.
EDIT: I think Wii controls are going to be unintuitive for everyone at first, simply because it's an entirely new way to play games. Things like "I wish there were an option to use the A button to swing Link's sword", or "The games don't explain exactly what you have to do" are pretty valid, but I expect they'll be resolved as the system ages, and developers have more experience.
I'll be goddamned. I need to play more and level up then.
The last one you get removes the delay completely (based on my testing). One of the Fire Souls in Levitated Ruin is inside of a box at the beginning of the stage that is destroyable with Speed Break. Repeatedly attack it once you get Homing Recovery ;-)
Seconded. In my case it was Ridge Racer, but I was absolutely certain it wasn't going to catch on. I also thought the same thing when "dual analogue" became the standard for FPSes, which I think is maybe more relevant because I still can't stand playing fast FPS games with them, but I realise I'm probably in the minority.
I suspect the Wii controls will end up the same way, in that many people will rapidly get used to them, and a smaller group of people will never fully grasp them. Whether or not motion-based controllers become the standard will depend upon the relative sizes of those two groups.
Well, it was port after all and originally designed for pad. Doing drastic changes to combat mechanics could have changed game completely, and that would have pushed project even farther. You must also remember that in beta control scheme sword swinging was put to A, but people complained about it.
ala NintendoDS
Pokemon Safari - Sneasel, Pawniard, ????
Also, the sword slashing mechanic was only added in at the last minute (after people requested it at E3). So, it's no surprise that it's a little bit gimmicky.
Then give us the choice. A game was never hated for having too many control options.
They did give you a choice. in the form of 2 different console options. Keep in mind you could have still bought a Wii, and then TP for the GCN and played it on your Wii.
Pokemon Safari - Sneasel, Pawniard, ????
This is actually something that I have always wondered.... Why Nintendo doesn't ever allow you to change control schemes in their own games? I mean, can anyone remember at least one 1st party game where you could change controls?
I could see it being a good excuse to not get ports of fighters. The only fighter I've seen on Wii is DBZ Budokai Tenkaichi 2, and the motion controls were horrible. It played much better with the Classic Controller than the Wii Remote.
Also, looking at the gameplay video for PoP: Rival Swords, motion controls in that game just look frustrating. I'm not sure if they could do it better, but as it stands now, if a game requires control that precise, I'd rather push a button. Think back to that fight with the twins; do you really want to use tacked-on motion controls for that?
Metroid Prime? I'm pretty sure you could chose to switch your cannon from the default "A" to a trigger.
Pokemon Safari - Sneasel, Pawniard, ????
Without being able to use the Wii Remote for aiming anything. It's obvious from comments here that button sword control was removed from the game. I'd have much rather seen an options screen where I could select either motion or button controls for both aiming and swordplay. It shouldn't have to be an all or nothing option.
Besides, picking the GCN version means I give up 16:9, something my TV supports.
I agree with you, and I imagine more control options will be available as time goes by and developers adapt. But do you think it's unfair to expect games to completely replicate your movement, instead of sometimes just substituting motions for button presses? I agree that I didn't feel as 'attached' to Link's sword arm the way the system was set up, but should every game be expected to have 1:1 controls? For instance, in SSX, if you wanted to do a 360, you'd have to flip the controller into the air? When you hit the A button on the gamecube Zelda, do you feel more or less 'involved' than with the Wii's method? Even if it's not full immersion, I would argue that it is a least more effective than button pressing.
New Super Mario Bros. has 2 control schemes, and Yoshi's Island DS has 4.
Well then you should explain all your variables upfront, good sir. You said you wanted a different control scheme, I provided you one. (provided at the cost of visuals) Nevertheless, I've run out of an arguement.
Pokemon Safari - Sneasel, Pawniard, ????
Not everything needs to be 1:1, but I'd expect better than getting a sword slash from a slight wiggle of the remote. Similarly, and I think I'm in the minority here, but I have a terrible time at shield bashes. 50% of the time I do a circle slash instead. Maybe all we need is better gestures?
Seriously, it makes sense to more your sword arm to get a slash and your shield arm to get a shield bash, but why do I shake my shield arm to get a circle slash? They were grasping at ways to implement motion controls, and it shows, and at least for me the game suffers for it because I attempt to do one thing and get another. This isn't something that happens to me with buttons, especially if I'm over 50% of the way through a game (just finished Snowpeak Ruins last night).
Now admittedly, when I played the game I grabbed the wiimote with my right hand... But it was unnatural. I really can't wait to get one, if for no other reason than to figure out if it works better in my left or right hand.
I mean, it is a fuck awesome system, and eventually I will buy one. However, it's just seems sytem itself is EXTREMLEY polarized.
I mean, sure, I understand why Nintendo might believe that HD isn't the now. However, it would be nice to have the option. Instead, we just get 480p, and that's pretty much it.
I'm a firm believer that when you make a system. There should always be an option. The 360 can play standard and progressive. The PS3, I believe, can do the same. Tacking on an extra 50 bucks to allow developers at least the OPTION of Hi-Def should have been a no brainer. It would have made little to no difference in sales(Especially in Japan), and it would have given people like me the peace of mind to know that hey, I can crank my tv's resolution to max while rocking out Twilight Princess.
The control situation is better, I admit. At the very least dev's can work around the Nunchucks quirkyness to make a fairly standard playing game. However, it seems that their more designed for short gaming spurts, rather then any longterm affairs. It's great for physical fitness and it definatley encourages social interaction, however, sometimes you just want to sit back and play a Final Fantasy or a Dragon quest for 4+ hours, and damnit's, you can't do that waving around a Wiimote!
Now, can devs work around the wiimote? Yes, and easily I might add. However, any attempt to do so would be seen as "not taking advantage of the Wiimotes awesomness" and therefore shunned, unless it's done by the most popular third or seconed party devs.
So, All in all, it's a double edged sword. I think that, if we were to get any innovation in the future, Nintendo pretty much had to make this move with the Wiimote and their system design, so that in the future, these innovations can be seen as sucssesful as well as viable for the future.
So, in the end the way I see it is that the Wiimote is probably one of the best design choices in the last 10 years.
While the actual Wii hardware design choices may actually be one of the worst.
My friend is left-handed, and enjoys the game, using the wiimote in his left hand. It doesn't really impact you in any way in that regard.
When you played Link to the past, do you think many righties felt uncomfortable that links sword was in his left hand (75% of the time)?
Pokemon Safari - Sneasel, Pawniard, ????
I'm a lefty, too, and I felt the same way at first, especially since Wii Sports works so well for left-handed people, but I've been gaming for years. Movement is left hand and buttons are right hand. It didn't feel unnatural to play right-handed, but I think it'd feel backwards, even for me, to play left-handed.
Disclaimer: I'm slightly ambidextrous and even play Guitar Hero right-handed. I do, however, write and play all sports left-handed.
That's my point, though. How is the 'spin the analog' stick method of previous Zeldas any better than the 'spin the nunchuck' style on the Wii? Accidental Shield bashing aside (I had that problem as well) I still think it 'feels' much better than just using my thumb. I have a hard time thinking of a better way they could do it, and I don't want to hold the remote out and spin in a circle.
EDIT:
This is another question I have, why does everyone seem to think every game will REQUIRE motion controls. You could play any Final Fantasy game on the Wii, using the analog stick and the relatively few buttons on the remote. Hell, you could just use the Remote itself. I'd like to explore the option of using the pointer as a mouse for menus though, it sounds like it would make it faster (though, Tiger Woods Game Face editor menus are a bitch to work with, but that's just a GUI programming fault, not a problem with the system.) People say they're reluctant to get a Wii because they don't want to be forced to move around all the time, but I don't think that will be the case. Just as someone mentioned earlier with the DS, the option for standard control is still there, and in the future we should see control options that reflect this.
This works both ways. Given I don't own (and don't expect to own for at least four or five years) an HDTV, that extra 50 bucks would probably have been enough that I wouldn't have bought one at launch.