AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited January 2013
This will come off as sycophantic, but this forum owes a lot to the work of Tube and the other mods to curb poor behavior and ensure discussions like this don't turn into a total shit fest. Reading the comments on the giantbomb story - one of my favourite websites outside of this one - depressed me so badly.
Not that comments as utterly clueless as "Would you be offended if it was a male torso" don't already of course, but at least it is a tiny minority here out of those who post.
I just spent an hour arguing on Twitter about this.
I am done. I have been slain by the demons of ignorance.
I would have been done trying to have an actual discussion on a complex issue like this 140 characters at a time. Twitter is great for short questions, but any rational discussion on twitter is severely hampered and points get lost so quickly it's hardly worth it.
This will come off as sycophantic, but this forum owes a lot to the work of Tube and the other mods to curb poor behavior and ensure discussions like this don't turn into a total shit fest. Reading the comments on the giantbomb story - one of my favourite websites outside of this one - depressed me so badly.
Not that comments as utterly clueless as "Would you be offended if it was a male torso" don't already of course.
Please don't. That's where a lot of this awful shit is reinforced. It's great for moving information, but when people start to talk it goes south quick. Reductive arguments are a lot of what Twitter produces.
vsove, wow, that... that is not an open-minded or remotely sympathetic person you are trying to have a debate with. That is a person with a deeply-rooted belief in But What About The Mens They Are Important. Case in point: nobody worth talking to would actually suggest that a "quite plausible" explanation for this whole thing is that it's actually, secretly, a manufactured controversy intended to spread awareness and sales at the same time.
Sometimes I forget what it's like out there in the untamed wilds of the larger internet. Then I see shit like that and it's like, oh... right. Makes me appreciate it that much more how much of a relative safe house of cool people the PA forums and PAX are.
I've been exposed to a lot of violence in video games and movies, so at first this didn't get much of a response from me aside from an eye-roll at the juevenile nature of the thing. This thread has made me re-evaluate that judgement. So, DI2 has that going for it, at least?
What you've all failed to realize is that this is a sting operation like To Catch a Predator and whomever buys this is going to be paid a visit by law enforcement and psychiatrists.
I've been exposed to a lot of violence in video games and movies, so at first this didn't get much of a response from me aside from an eye-roll at the juevenile nature of the thing. This thread has made me re-evaluate that judgement. So, DI2 has that going for it, at least?
Yeah, lots of people immediately see this as silly and juvenile, but this thread did a good job at talking about how actively harmful this kind of thing is for culture as a whole.
I think the real issue here is everyone in this thread is being racist. "Zombies can't be sexy" you say. Well think of how that effects real world zombies.
Why yes that is a joke
I wasn't planning on getting this game, but now I have a reason to save sixty dollars. Well, this and the terrible first game...
I'm of the opinion it's not harmful, I've been having a chat with Willeth over Twitter about it (which is indeed pretty impossible). Then again I've grown up with horror films, many of which gleefully explode both blood and boobies on to the screen, often together. I've seen tits morph and crush someone's hand between them (Night of the Demons 2. Classic), I've seen scantilly clad adult film stars swim around in 3D before getting munched by killer fish.
It's part of the horror genre, and you can argue it's not right, and harmful but I genuinally struggle to see to whom. No woman I know is genuinally offended that what amounts to a b-movie video game is giving away a half naked bloody torso with their purchase, much like they weren't offended (in fact, quite the opposite, ridiculously entertained) when we sat down to watch Piranha which gleefully throws around a combination of porn stars and body parts.
Step in to somewhere like forbidden planet and have a look over the figurines they have in there, I can safely say there'll be a few at least as 'tasteless' and 'offensive' as the one that's being given away here.
I can see I'm in the minority, and that I'll be shouted down here but seriously I don't see a statue of the bloodied torso of a bikini-clad woman being given away with a zombie video game set on a tropical island as a horrendous idea.
I'm of the opinion it's not harmful, I've been having a chat with Willeth over Twitter about it (which is indeed pretty impossible). Then again I've grown up with horror films, many of which gleefully explode both blood and boobies on to the screen, often together. I've seen tits morph and crush someone's hand between them (Night of the Demons 2. Classic), I've seen scantilly clad adult film stars swim around in 3D before getting munched by killer fish.
It's part of the horror genre, and you can argue it's not right, and harmful but I genuinally struggle to see to whom. No woman I know is genuinally offended that what amounts to a b-movie video game is giving away a half naked bloody torso with their purchase, much like they weren't offended (in fact, quite the opposite, ridiculously entertained) when we sat down to watch Piranha which gleefully throws around a combination of porn stars and body parts.
Step in to somewhere like forbidden planet and have a look over the figurines they have in there, I can safely say there'll be a few at least as 'tasteless' and 'offensive' as the one that's being given away here.
I can see I'm in the minority, and that I'll be shouted down here but seriously I don't see a statue of the bloodied torso of a bikini-clad woman being given away with a zombie video game set on a tropical island as a horrendous idea.
How would you respond to the statement that this is literally the reduction of a woman to a pair of breasts? It isn't *just* a scantily clad woman getting killed. Nope, she's butchered, torn apart, until somehow, magically, all that remains of her is a set of huge knockers, which are unharmed. Would you agree that's a crystal clear example of objectification?
Also, how is the fact that you've seen similar portrayals of women before relevant? Does that make it okay somehow? "Women are treated terribly in media all the time, and this is no exception, and that's okay then"?
+2
Zxerolfor the smaller pieces, my shovel wouldn't doso i took off my boot and used my shoeRegistered Userregular
edited January 2013
Yo seriously
All that tells me is how awful the horror genre must be if this is ok by its standards
I'm of the opinion it's not harmful, I've been having a chat with Willeth over Twitter about it (which is indeed pretty impossible).
...
It's part of the horror genre, and you can argue it's not right, and harmful but I genuinally struggle to see to whom.
If nothing else surely you could admit that it is harmful to the cause of people who want to see video games elevated as art and/or classier games, not having them regulated into submission.
No woman I know is genuinally offended that what amounts to a b-movie video game is giving away a half naked bloody torso with their purchase, much like they weren't offended (in fact, quite the opposite, ridiculously entertained) when we sat down to watch Piranha which gleefully throws around a combination of porn stars and body parts.
You knew this would be dismissed as anecdotal though, right?
Step in to somewhere like forbidden planet and have a look over the figurines they have in there, I can safely say there'll be a few at least as 'tasteless' and 'offensive' as the one that's being given away here.
But this is just a matter of preordering a video game, not going into whatever store that is where I'm sure most people know what they're getting into.
Where would you draw the line on a preorder bonus? A lot of things are sold in stores you can just walk into. Are all of them valid preorder items on that basis?
I'm of the opinion it's not harmful, I've been having a chat with Willeth over Twitter about it (which is indeed pretty impossible).
...
It's part of the horror genre, and you can argue it's not right, and harmful but I genuinally struggle to see to whom.
If nothing else surely you could admit that it is harmful to the cause of people who want to see video games elevated as art and/or classier games, not having them regulated into submission.
Like movies, some films are works of art, some aren't. You don't see people moaning that the latest Saw film invalidates Life of Pi. Video games have moved past the stage somewhat now that they're just for kids. Plenty of adults play them, whilst not at the same level of acceptance of films possibly they're now a part of normal every-day entertainment, and not relegated to something unemployed 30 year olds living with their parents play.
So no, I don't think games like Dead Island are harmful in that respect. As gamers we have a significant arsenal of titles to bring up when trying to put the "art" point across.
No woman I know is genuinally offended that what amounts to a b-movie video game is giving away a half naked bloody torso with their purchase, much like they weren't offended (in fact, quite the opposite, ridiculously entertained) when we sat down to watch Piranha which gleefully throws around a combination of porn stars and body parts.
You knew this would be dismissed as anecdotal though, right?
Indeed, but in the absense of a poll, the reactions of my wife and friends (one would admit to being a very militant feminist) are what I have to go on. It seems people here are trying to defend "women" but if you took this on to the street and asked them, would they really be that offended? Would they want defending?
Step in to somewhere like forbidden planet and have a look over the figurines they have in there, I can safely say there'll be a few at least as 'tasteless' and 'offensive' as the one that's being given away here.
But this is just a matter of preordering a video game, not going into whatever store that is where I'm sure most people know what they're getting into.
Where would you draw the line on a preorder bonus? A lot of things are sold in stores you can just walk into. Are all of them valid preorder items on that basis?
I was under the impression it was a pre-order bonus for a special edition, not just a standard pre-order bonus or did I miss-read? What makes an item not acceptable for a pre-order bonus? You're buying an 18 rated game, I'd say any item suitable for an 18 year old is suitable as a pre-order bonus. And forbidden planet is a comic shop over here, they just also (in most places) sell film and horror merchandise.
I literally, just yesterday, bought a new copy of Dead Island GOTY. Why? Because my girlfriend wants to play co-op.
My girlfriend!
I bought her the original after she had looked at the box a couple of times in the store, and she LOVED it. I had no interest in it, and would usually nap while she played it. I'd wake up and she'd be just smashing zombies in the face. I looked at it as the gateway to get her to try Fallout, or Borderlands. She was hooked on the open world, hooked on weapon making, just totally hooked. At one point I asked her what the story was, and she said "I have no idea, I skipped it."
Since she beat it, she's been talking about how she wants to restart it, she misses playing it. Ive shown her Borderlands and Fallout but for whatever reason, she just wants Dead Island.
It makes no sense, but just like I could literally play NieR forever, I get it. I get that somehow, sometimes a game gets its hooks into you and no matter how bad it is, you're stuck with it forever.
So as my XBox started dying last week, I decided to get another before the old one completely stopped reading discs, so we could do some system link Dead Island together. Last night I bought a second copy of the game, the new XBox and hooked it all up before she got home from work. She was so excited. Unfortunately by the time I got the system link ad-hoc working, it was my bedtime, and we only ran around for less than 5 minutes before I got in bed. She was so excited though. "Wasn't that great? This is going to be great!" she kept saying as I brushed my teeth.
I got into bed and she said "If I pay for it, can we pre-order 2 copies of the newer Dead Island?" and I said sure.
I said sure.
Now what the hell am I going to do. This is going to be like telling a kid there's no Santa.
Wait, no. This is going to be like telling a kid Santa loves dismembering women and here look he saved one for you, check your stocking.
PSN: mxmarks - WiiU: mxmarks - twitter: @ MikesPS4 - twitch.tv/mxmarks - "Yes, mxmarks is the King of Queens" - Unbreakable Vow
How would you respond to the statement that this is literally the reduction of a woman to a pair of breasts? It isn't *just* a scantily clad woman getting killed. Nope, she's butchered, torn apart, until somehow, magically, all that remains of her is a set of huge knockers, which are unharmed. Would you agree that's a crystal clear example of objectification?
Also, how is the fact that you've seen similar portrayals of women before relevant? Does that make it okay somehow? "Women are treated terribly in media all the time, and this is no exception, and that's okay then"?
I literally, just yesterday, bought a new copy of Dead Island GOTY. Why? Because my girlfriend wants to play co-op.
My girlfriend!
I bought her the original after she had looked at the box a couple of times in the store, and she LOVED it. I had no interest in it, and would usually nap while she played it. I'd wake up and she'd be just smashing zombies in the face. I looked at it as the gateway to get her to try Fallout, or Borderlands. She was hooked on the open world, hooked on weapon making, just totally hooked. At one point I asked her what the story was, and she said "I have no idea, I skipped it."
Since she beat it, she's been talking about how she wants to restart it, she misses playing it. Ive shown her Borderlands and Fallout but for whatever reason, she just wants Dead Island.
It makes no sense, but just like I could literally play NieR forever, I get it. I get that somehow, sometimes a game gets its hooks into you and no matter how bad it is, you're stuck with it forever.
So as my XBox started dying last week, I decided to get another before the old one completely stopped reading discs, so we could do some system link Dead Island together. Last night I bought a second copy of the game, the new XBox and hooked it all up before she got home from work. She was so excited. Unfortunately by the time I got the system link ad-hoc working, it was my bedtime, and we only ran around for less than 5 minutes before I got in bed. She was so excited though. "Wasn't that great? This is going to be great!" she kept saying as I brushed my teeth.
I got into bed and she said "If I pay for it, can we pre-order 2 copies of the newer Dead Island?" and I said sure.
I said sure.
Now what the hell am I going to do. This is going to be like telling a kid there's no Santa.
Wait, no. This is going to be like telling a kid Santa loves dismembering women and here look he saved one for you, check your stocking.
Well provided she doesn't get the collectors edition it's not really that big an issue.
IMHO if you like the game fucking buy it. Don't buy the collectors edition and if you really want to slam it home write a letter to the guys saying: "me and my girlfriend liked your game immensely but we didn't buy the collectors edition and here's why:"
I don't think it's fair to punish a games company as a whole for a stupid marketing department.
I literally, just yesterday, bought a new copy of Dead Island GOTY. Why? Because my girlfriend wants to play co-op.
My girlfriend!
I bought her the original after she had looked at the box a couple of times in the store, and she LOVED it. I had no interest in it, and would usually nap while she played it. I'd wake up and she'd be just smashing zombies in the face. I looked at it as the gateway to get her to try Fallout, or Borderlands. She was hooked on the open world, hooked on weapon making, just totally hooked. At one point I asked her what the story was, and she said "I have no idea, I skipped it."
Since she beat it, she's been talking about how she wants to restart it, she misses playing it. Ive shown her Borderlands and Fallout but for whatever reason, she just wants Dead Island.
It makes no sense, but just like I could literally play NieR forever, I get it. I get that somehow, sometimes a game gets its hooks into you and no matter how bad it is, you're stuck with it forever.
So as my XBox started dying last week, I decided to get another before the old one completely stopped reading discs, so we could do some system link Dead Island together. Last night I bought a second copy of the game, the new XBox and hooked it all up before she got home from work. She was so excited. Unfortunately by the time I got the system link ad-hoc working, it was my bedtime, and we only ran around for less than 5 minutes before I got in bed. She was so excited though. "Wasn't that great? This is going to be great!" she kept saying as I brushed my teeth.
I got into bed and she said "If I pay for it, can we pre-order 2 copies of the newer Dead Island?" and I said sure.
I said sure.
Now what the hell am I going to do. This is going to be like telling a kid there's no Santa.
Wait, no. This is going to be like telling a kid Santa loves dismembering women and here look he saved one for you, check your stocking.
Well provided she doesn't get the collectors edition it's not really that big an issue.
IMHO if you like the game fucking buy it. Don't buy the collectors edition and if you really want to slam it home write a letter to the guys saying: "me and my girlfriend liked your game immensely but we didn't buy the collectors edition and here's why:"
I don't think it's fair to punish a games company as a whole for a stupid marketing department.
In the end, it's the company that's responsible for the product though.
I think it's completely fair to punish the company for that, because it's also the company which in the end has the power to rein in their marketing department when confronted with negative publicity and reduction in sales. What else do you propose? You can't get to only the marketing department because it's part of the company. And the company as an entity is responsible for what it does.
That said, show your girlfriend this thing, see if she still wants to get it?
How would you respond to the statement that this is literally the reduction of a woman to a pair of breasts? It isn't *just* a scantily clad woman getting killed. Nope, she's butchered, torn apart, until somehow, magically, all that remains of her is a set of huge knockers, which are unharmed. Would you agree that's a crystal clear example of objectification?
Also, how is the fact that you've seen similar portrayals of women before relevant? Does that make it okay somehow? "Women are treated terribly in media all the time, and this is no exception, and that's okay then"?
Missed your reply, sorry.
I'd reply by saying that's your interpretation of it. I'm not denying it's meant to appeal and sell because there are boobs on there, but there are other ways to see it. The female figure is attractive, what's been done to it here certainly isn't, the two contrast each other well, it's supposed to be shocking. It's certainly not the first thing to use the female figure to sell and it won't be the last, is that bad? Women's magazines use pictures of half naked women to sell, is that still objectification?
It's hard to defend a statue of a mutilated female body. I can't deny it's gross, and certainly not something I'd want on my shelf but I don't see a problem with them offering it for those that do. I've a friend over the road, she collects zombie stuff, I showed her this and despite having no interest in the game instantly declared: "That's awesome."
Anecdotal, again, I know, but really, who is this harming?
As far as we’re concerned the strangest thing about this story is the idea that anyone would want a 31cm tall statue of a headless and limbless female corpse
Whilst I see no issue with it, I can't understand why anyone would actually want it.
I literally, just yesterday, bought a new copy of Dead Island GOTY. Why? Because my girlfriend wants to play co-op.
My girlfriend!
I bought her the original after she had looked at the box a couple of times in the store, and she LOVED it. I had no interest in it, and would usually nap while she played it. I'd wake up and she'd be just smashing zombies in the face. I looked at it as the gateway to get her to try Fallout, or Borderlands. She was hooked on the open world, hooked on weapon making, just totally hooked. At one point I asked her what the story was, and she said "I have no idea, I skipped it."
Since she beat it, she's been talking about how she wants to restart it, she misses playing it. Ive shown her Borderlands and Fallout but for whatever reason, she just wants Dead Island.
It makes no sense, but just like I could literally play NieR forever, I get it. I get that somehow, sometimes a game gets its hooks into you and no matter how bad it is, you're stuck with it forever.
So as my XBox started dying last week, I decided to get another before the old one completely stopped reading discs, so we could do some system link Dead Island together. Last night I bought a second copy of the game, the new XBox and hooked it all up before she got home from work. She was so excited. Unfortunately by the time I got the system link ad-hoc working, it was my bedtime, and we only ran around for less than 5 minutes before I got in bed. She was so excited though. "Wasn't that great? This is going to be great!" she kept saying as I brushed my teeth.
I got into bed and she said "If I pay for it, can we pre-order 2 copies of the newer Dead Island?" and I said sure.
I said sure.
Now what the hell am I going to do. This is going to be like telling a kid there's no Santa.
Wait, no. This is going to be like telling a kid Santa loves dismembering women and here look he saved one for you, check your stocking.
Well provided she doesn't get the collectors edition it's not really that big an issue.
IMHO if you like the game fucking buy it. Don't buy the collectors edition and if you really want to slam it home write a letter to the guys saying: "me and my girlfriend liked your game immensely but we didn't buy the collectors edition and here's why:"
I don't think it's fair to punish a games company as a whole for a stupid marketing department.
In the end, it's the company that's responsible for the product though.
I think it's completely fair to punish the company for that, because it's also the company which in the end has the power to rein in their marketing department when confronted with negative publicity and reduction in sales. What else do you propose? You can't get to only the marketing department because it's part of the company. And the company as an entity is responsible for what it does.
That said, show your girlfriend this thing, see if she still wants to get it?
The issue with that to me is that the company is much larger than what created that statue and what green lit it. Chances are virtually no one working on the game had in put into it's creation.
Plus you can get to just the marketting department, people say that letters don't have an effect but when they come from customers who would have spent more BUT it has a decent impact.
Basically it's down to whether you think you should torch the many to punish the few or lightly tap the many to hope they'll do the torching for you.
Well I mean I guess that's the point - I'm going to absolutely show her, and she will absolutely not want to get it.
And maybe she won't want to play the first much anymore either.
The world doesn't exist in a vacuum, and while I totally, totally agree with "if it's fun, just play it!" - actions people and companies do can make something fun become un-fun.
I'm a huge NHL fan, I love hockey. But this lockout has really soured me, and I have no desire to watch a half-assed short season. I will keep following the AHL though.
Many baseball fans who loved the era of Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds now advocate to keep them out of the Hall of Fame, because they cheated. Watching highlights of classic games the enjoyed at that time are now colored much differently.
I can totally understand that seeing a company be this blatantly ignorant, or apathetic, about how this would make someone feel (let alone a woman) would make her feel like she just didn't want any part of the franchise anymore. Like it's not for her. Everything that was written off as "this is poor writing" or "this is poor character animation" now may always have that "...are 'the boys' having a laugh at me?" feeling to her.
And it just sucks because she LOVES this game. I mean, it really is like finding out your favorite athlete is an asshole. I feel bad that I'm going to have to show her that her favorite (for better or worse) guilty pleasure game really doesn't give a shit about her as a fan, or person.
mxmarks on
PSN: mxmarks - WiiU: mxmarks - twitter: @ MikesPS4 - twitch.tv/mxmarks - "Yes, mxmarks is the King of Queens" - Unbreakable Vow
No woman I know is genuinally offended that what amounts to a b-movie video game is giving away a half naked bloody torso with their purchase, much like they weren't offended (in fact, quite the opposite, ridiculously entertained) when we sat down to watch Piranha which gleefully throws around a combination of porn stars and body parts.
And no woman I know isn't so that cancels you out, right? Woman can be just as affected and buy into this shit as men can. It excuses nothing just because the women you know are ignorant of what's being done to them.
Step in to somewhere like forbidden planet and have a look over the figurines they have in there, I can safely say there'll be a few at least as 'tasteless' and 'offensive' as the one that's being given away here.
And that changes what exactly?
Your entire argument seems to be objectification of females and the mysoginy it's producing is ok because there's just so much of it and that is pants on head stupid.
+9
reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
And it just sucks because she LOVES this game. I mean, it really is like finding out your favorite athlete is an asshole. I feel bad that I'm going to have to show her that her favorite (for better or worse) guilty pleasure game really doesn't give a shit about her as a fan, or person.
Why do you feel it's somehow your duty to tell her that Santa aint real? Buy her the game, and if she someday stumbles upon the stupid special edition on her own, that's that and she'll deal with it however she chooses. Meanwhile, just let her enjoy the game.
I don't think it's fair to punish a games company as a whole for a stupid marketing department.
The marketing department is still part of the company and they don't operate in a vacuum. The ONLY WAY to show that you disapprove that they will give a rat's ass about is to not give them money.
Horror statues and other stuff are usually fine. This one just pisses me off because:
1) it's so obviously showing off the boobs
2) there is no personality/context/story to it other than 'boobs are zombie bait'
Like if there was a game reason for it, or she had a head following one of the games characters I'd probably be fine with it as something that's a bit tasteless. It's the sheer anonymity of the tits that makes it wrong to me.
And it just sucks because she LOVES this game. I mean, it really is like finding out your favorite athlete is an asshole. I feel bad that I'm going to have to show her that her favorite (for better or worse) guilty pleasure game really doesn't give a shit about her as a fan, or person.
Why do you feel it's somehow your duty to tell her that Santa aint real? Buy her the game, and if she someday stumbles upon the stupid special edition on her own, that's that and she'll deal with it however she chooses. Meanwhile, just let her enjoy the game.
This is the worst advice ever. "Fool her before she's offended."
You simply cannot think that's a good idea.
Magic Pink on
+10
reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
And it just sucks because she LOVES this game. I mean, it really is like finding out your favorite athlete is an asshole. I feel bad that I'm going to have to show her that her favorite (for better or worse) guilty pleasure game really doesn't give a shit about her as a fan, or person.
Why do you feel it's somehow your duty to tell her that Santa aint real? Buy her the game, and if she someday stumbles upon the stupid special edition on her own, that's that and she'll deal with it however she chooses. Meanwhile, just let her enjoy the game.
This is the worst advice ever. "Fool her before she's offended."
You simply cannot this that's a good idea.
Who's fooling anyone? She wants to buy a game, so let her. Aint no need to go out of your way to tell her that the stupid collector's edition is super extra stupid.
I don't think it's fair to punish a games company as a whole for a stupid marketing department.
The marketing department is still part of the company and they don't operate in a vacuum. The ONLY WAY to show that you disapprove that they will give a rat's ass about is to not give them money.
Oh look our reptitive middle of the road zombie game didn't sell. Must be because of the boob statue.
VS
Oh look our reptitive middle of the road zombie game did sell but the boob statue didn't. Also we have loyal customers mailing in to specifically tell us how they would have spent more were it not for the boob statue.
One is trying to shut the company out of making anything again, the other is both targeted and more likely to give them a reason to listen in that actual customers who give a shit about their products are complaining.
How would you respond to the statement that this is literally the reduction of a woman to a pair of breasts? It isn't *just* a scantily clad woman getting killed. Nope, she's butchered, torn apart, until somehow, magically, all that remains of her is a set of huge knockers, which are unharmed. Would you agree that's a crystal clear example of objectification?
Also, how is the fact that you've seen similar portrayals of women before relevant? Does that make it okay somehow? "Women are treated terribly in media all the time, and this is no exception, and that's okay then"?
Missed your reply, sorry.
I'd reply by saying that's your interpretation of it.
I don't think so. It is literally a woman reduced to only her perfect breasts. That's not really an interpretation but an observation.
I'm not denying it's meant to appeal and sell because there are boobs on there, but there are other ways to see it. The female figure is attractive, what's been done to it here certainly isn't, the two contrast each other well, it's supposed to be shocking.
While applicable in other situations (I think contrast and subversion played a part in the Cyberpunk trailer), I don't think it holds here. This isn't the corruption of beauty. If this were a statue of an attractive lady all zombified you could make that argument. But you can't deny the objectification here; only her tits remain, and remain unharmed. That wasn't by chance. That was a very specific choice made that has little to do with contrast. And no, it likely wasn't the intent of the designers, but what they did what still objectifying and demeaning.
It's certainly not the first thing to use the female figure to sell and it won't be the last, is that bad? Women's magazines use pictures of half naked women to sell, is that still objectification?
I can't really respond this this other than "Yes". Yes, it's bad. And yes, it's objectification. Women's magazines, many of which are aimed at selling beauty products, are not somehow immune to this.
It's hard to defend a statue of a mutilated female body. I can't deny it's gross, and certainly not something I'd want on my shelf but I don't see a problem with them offering it for those that do. I've a friend over the road, she collects zombie stuff, I showed her this and despite having no interest in the game instantly declared: "That's awesome."
Anecdotal, again, I know, but really, who is this harming?
This requires a pretty long answer. The best answer I can give is to scroll through the #1 reason why thread a bit, where these issues are explored in depth.
In short, it's harming the treatment of women within the game industry and within society, which directly influences how women are perceived as well.
I counter your anecdotes with the several anecdotes in that thread from women who are tired of and uncomfortable with having their gender represented in a sexist, objectified way. It's important that you set this incident against the background of the fairly poisonous attitudes towards women in the game industry in general.
Many people here asked the question "would you care if this was a male torso?" But the answer is that it isn't, and never will be. And think about that, why not? Why is it a female torso? This should again be seen in the context of the unequal treatment of men and women in the games industry. I believe inequality in treatment is harmful, yes. I believe reducing a woman to a pair of tits and putting that on the market is harmful, because is furthers the belief that that is somehow okay. That it's okay to see woman as sexual objects. It reinforces widely held negative beliefs.
That's why it's important to speak out against it.
And it just sucks because she LOVES this game. I mean, it really is like finding out your favorite athlete is an asshole. I feel bad that I'm going to have to show her that her favorite (for better or worse) guilty pleasure game really doesn't give a shit about her as a fan, or person.
Why do you feel it's somehow your duty to tell her that Santa aint real? Buy her the game, and if she someday stumbles upon the stupid special edition on her own, that's that and she'll deal with it however she chooses. Meanwhile, just let her enjoy the game.
This is the worst advice ever. "Fool her before she's offended."
You simply cannot this that's a good idea.
Who's fooling anyone? She wants to buy a game, so let her.
And if he knows she wouldn't buy it if she saw this, like he said, you're saying buy it before she sees it.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
And it just sucks because she LOVES this game. I mean, it really is like finding out your favorite athlete is an asshole. I feel bad that I'm going to have to show her that her favorite (for better or worse) guilty pleasure game really doesn't give a shit about her as a fan, or person.
Why do you feel it's somehow your duty to tell her that Santa aint real? Buy her the game, and if she someday stumbles upon the stupid special edition on her own, that's that and she'll deal with it however she chooses. Meanwhile, just let her enjoy the game.
This is the worst advice ever. "Fool her before she's offended."
You simply cannot this that's a good idea.
Who's fooling anyone? She wants to buy a game, so let her.
And if he knows she wouldn't buy it if she saw this, like he said, you're saying buy it before she sees it.
It's only an issue if she buying the collector's edition, in which case she will see it. The statue don't affect the regular edition none.
Posts
But it was a few of us in discussion with @OfGloriousLife. If you search his twitter handle you can see most of it.
Not that comments as utterly clueless as "Would you be offended if it was a male torso" don't already of course, but at least it is a tiny minority here out of those who post.
I would have been done trying to have an actual discussion on a complex issue like this 140 characters at a time. Twitter is great for short questions, but any rational discussion on twitter is severely hampered and points get lost so quickly it's hardly worth it.
It was less-than-ideal, definitely.
But Twitter seems to be where a lot of this stuff is going so I'm trying to learn how to be eloquent 140-characters at a time.
It is not easy.
Sometimes I forget what it's like out there in the untamed wilds of the larger internet. Then I see shit like that and it's like, oh... right. Makes me appreciate it that much more how much of a relative safe house of cool people the PA forums and PAX are.
Bring me one and I'll tell you.
"Formerly of Destructoid"
oh
3DS FC: 2148-8300-8608 WiiU: AgahnimD
If only.
Yeah, lots of people immediately see this as silly and juvenile, but this thread did a good job at talking about how actively harmful this kind of thing is for culture as a whole.
I wasn't planning on getting this game, but now I have a reason to save sixty dollars. Well, this and the terrible first game...
It's part of the horror genre, and you can argue it's not right, and harmful but I genuinally struggle to see to whom. No woman I know is genuinally offended that what amounts to a b-movie video game is giving away a half naked bloody torso with their purchase, much like they weren't offended (in fact, quite the opposite, ridiculously entertained) when we sat down to watch Piranha which gleefully throws around a combination of porn stars and body parts.
Step in to somewhere like forbidden planet and have a look over the figurines they have in there, I can safely say there'll be a few at least as 'tasteless' and 'offensive' as the one that's being given away here.
I can see I'm in the minority, and that I'll be shouted down here but seriously I don't see a statue of the bloodied torso of a bikini-clad woman being given away with a zombie video game set on a tropical island as a horrendous idea.
PSN: SirGrinchX
Oculus Rift: Sir_Grinch
How would you respond to the statement that this is literally the reduction of a woman to a pair of breasts? It isn't *just* a scantily clad woman getting killed. Nope, she's butchered, torn apart, until somehow, magically, all that remains of her is a set of huge knockers, which are unharmed. Would you agree that's a crystal clear example of objectification?
Also, how is the fact that you've seen similar portrayals of women before relevant? Does that make it okay somehow? "Women are treated terribly in media all the time, and this is no exception, and that's okay then"?
All that tells me is how awful the horror genre must be if this is ok by its standards
You knew this would be dismissed as anecdotal though, right?
But this is just a matter of preordering a video game, not going into whatever store that is where I'm sure most people know what they're getting into.
Where would you draw the line on a preorder bonus? A lot of things are sold in stores you can just walk into. Are all of them valid preorder items on that basis?
Like movies, some films are works of art, some aren't. You don't see people moaning that the latest Saw film invalidates Life of Pi. Video games have moved past the stage somewhat now that they're just for kids. Plenty of adults play them, whilst not at the same level of acceptance of films possibly they're now a part of normal every-day entertainment, and not relegated to something unemployed 30 year olds living with their parents play.
So no, I don't think games like Dead Island are harmful in that respect. As gamers we have a significant arsenal of titles to bring up when trying to put the "art" point across.
Indeed, but in the absense of a poll, the reactions of my wife and friends (one would admit to being a very militant feminist) are what I have to go on. It seems people here are trying to defend "women" but if you took this on to the street and asked them, would they really be that offended? Would they want defending?
I was under the impression it was a pre-order bonus for a special edition, not just a standard pre-order bonus or did I miss-read? What makes an item not acceptable for a pre-order bonus? You're buying an 18 rated game, I'd say any item suitable for an 18 year old is suitable as a pre-order bonus. And forbidden planet is a comic shop over here, they just also (in most places) sell film and horror merchandise.
PSN: SirGrinchX
Oculus Rift: Sir_Grinch
I literally, just yesterday, bought a new copy of Dead Island GOTY. Why? Because my girlfriend wants to play co-op.
My girlfriend!
I bought her the original after she had looked at the box a couple of times in the store, and she LOVED it. I had no interest in it, and would usually nap while she played it. I'd wake up and she'd be just smashing zombies in the face. I looked at it as the gateway to get her to try Fallout, or Borderlands. She was hooked on the open world, hooked on weapon making, just totally hooked. At one point I asked her what the story was, and she said "I have no idea, I skipped it."
Since she beat it, she's been talking about how she wants to restart it, she misses playing it. Ive shown her Borderlands and Fallout but for whatever reason, she just wants Dead Island.
It makes no sense, but just like I could literally play NieR forever, I get it. I get that somehow, sometimes a game gets its hooks into you and no matter how bad it is, you're stuck with it forever.
So as my XBox started dying last week, I decided to get another before the old one completely stopped reading discs, so we could do some system link Dead Island together. Last night I bought a second copy of the game, the new XBox and hooked it all up before she got home from work. She was so excited. Unfortunately by the time I got the system link ad-hoc working, it was my bedtime, and we only ran around for less than 5 minutes before I got in bed. She was so excited though. "Wasn't that great? This is going to be great!" she kept saying as I brushed my teeth.
I got into bed and she said "If I pay for it, can we pre-order 2 copies of the newer Dead Island?" and I said sure.
I said sure.
Now what the hell am I going to do. This is going to be like telling a kid there's no Santa.
Wait, no. This is going to be like telling a kid Santa loves dismembering women and here look he saved one for you, check your stocking.
Well provided she doesn't get the collectors edition it's not really that big an issue.
IMHO if you like the game fucking buy it. Don't buy the collectors edition and if you really want to slam it home write a letter to the guys saying: "me and my girlfriend liked your game immensely but we didn't buy the collectors edition and here's why:"
I don't think it's fair to punish a games company as a whole for a stupid marketing department.
In the end, it's the company that's responsible for the product though.
I think it's completely fair to punish the company for that, because it's also the company which in the end has the power to rein in their marketing department when confronted with negative publicity and reduction in sales. What else do you propose? You can't get to only the marketing department because it's part of the company. And the company as an entity is responsible for what it does.
That said, show your girlfriend this thing, see if she still wants to get it?
Missed your reply, sorry.
I'd reply by saying that's your interpretation of it. I'm not denying it's meant to appeal and sell because there are boobs on there, but there are other ways to see it. The female figure is attractive, what's been done to it here certainly isn't, the two contrast each other well, it's supposed to be shocking. It's certainly not the first thing to use the female figure to sell and it won't be the last, is that bad? Women's magazines use pictures of half naked women to sell, is that still objectification?
It's hard to defend a statue of a mutilated female body. I can't deny it's gross, and certainly not something I'd want on my shelf but I don't see a problem with them offering it for those that do. I've a friend over the road, she collects zombie stuff, I showed her this and despite having no interest in the game instantly declared: "That's awesome."
Anecdotal, again, I know, but really, who is this harming?
PSN: SirGrinchX
Oculus Rift: Sir_Grinch
That's a weird choice of words, considering that she wants the game and not this thing.
Whilst I see no issue with it, I can't understand why anyone would actually want it.
PSN: SirGrinchX
Oculus Rift: Sir_Grinch
The issue with that to me is that the company is much larger than what created that statue and what green lit it. Chances are virtually no one working on the game had in put into it's creation.
Plus you can get to just the marketting department, people say that letters don't have an effect but when they come from customers who would have spent more BUT it has a decent impact.
Basically it's down to whether you think you should torch the many to punish the few or lightly tap the many to hope they'll do the torching for you.
A male torso actually wouldn't be the equivalent. It would need to be male genitalia.
And maybe she won't want to play the first much anymore either.
The world doesn't exist in a vacuum, and while I totally, totally agree with "if it's fun, just play it!" - actions people and companies do can make something fun become un-fun.
I'm a huge NHL fan, I love hockey. But this lockout has really soured me, and I have no desire to watch a half-assed short season. I will keep following the AHL though.
Many baseball fans who loved the era of Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds now advocate to keep them out of the Hall of Fame, because they cheated. Watching highlights of classic games the enjoyed at that time are now colored much differently.
I can totally understand that seeing a company be this blatantly ignorant, or apathetic, about how this would make someone feel (let alone a woman) would make her feel like she just didn't want any part of the franchise anymore. Like it's not for her. Everything that was written off as "this is poor writing" or "this is poor character animation" now may always have that "...are 'the boys' having a laugh at me?" feeling to her.
And it just sucks because she LOVES this game. I mean, it really is like finding out your favorite athlete is an asshole. I feel bad that I'm going to have to show her that her favorite (for better or worse) guilty pleasure game really doesn't give a shit about her as a fan, or person.
Like this but more mutilated.
I can't even express how easily it would be for you to look up hundreds of reason that will show you why but I'm guessing you won't anyway.
And no woman I know isn't so that cancels you out, right? Woman can be just as affected and buy into this shit as men can. It excuses nothing just because the women you know are ignorant of what's being done to them.
And that changes what exactly?
Your entire argument seems to be objectification of females and the mysoginy it's producing is ok because there's just so much of it and that is pants on head stupid.
Why do you feel it's somehow your duty to tell her that Santa aint real? Buy her the game, and if she someday stumbles upon the stupid special edition on her own, that's that and she'll deal with it however she chooses. Meanwhile, just let her enjoy the game.
The marketing department is still part of the company and they don't operate in a vacuum. The ONLY WAY to show that you disapprove that they will give a rat's ass about is to not give them money.
Horror statues and other stuff are usually fine. This one just pisses me off because:
1) it's so obviously showing off the boobs
2) there is no personality/context/story to it other than 'boobs are zombie bait'
Like if there was a game reason for it, or she had a head following one of the games characters I'd probably be fine with it as something that's a bit tasteless. It's the sheer anonymity of the tits that makes it wrong to me.
This is the worst advice ever. "Fool her before she's offended."
You simply cannot think that's a good idea.
Who's fooling anyone? She wants to buy a game, so let her. Aint no need to go out of your way to tell her that the stupid collector's edition is super extra stupid.
Oh look our reptitive middle of the road zombie game didn't sell. Must be because of the boob statue.
VS
Oh look our reptitive middle of the road zombie game did sell but the boob statue didn't. Also we have loyal customers mailing in to specifically tell us how they would have spent more were it not for the boob statue.
One is trying to shut the company out of making anything again, the other is both targeted and more likely to give them a reason to listen in that actual customers who give a shit about their products are complaining.
I don't think so. It is literally a woman reduced to only her perfect breasts. That's not really an interpretation but an observation.
While applicable in other situations (I think contrast and subversion played a part in the Cyberpunk trailer), I don't think it holds here. This isn't the corruption of beauty. If this were a statue of an attractive lady all zombified you could make that argument. But you can't deny the objectification here; only her tits remain, and remain unharmed. That wasn't by chance. That was a very specific choice made that has little to do with contrast. And no, it likely wasn't the intent of the designers, but what they did what still objectifying and demeaning.
I can't really respond this this other than "Yes". Yes, it's bad. And yes, it's objectification. Women's magazines, many of which are aimed at selling beauty products, are not somehow immune to this.
This requires a pretty long answer. The best answer I can give is to scroll through the #1 reason why thread a bit, where these issues are explored in depth.
In short, it's harming the treatment of women within the game industry and within society, which directly influences how women are perceived as well.
I counter your anecdotes with the several anecdotes in that thread from women who are tired of and uncomfortable with having their gender represented in a sexist, objectified way. It's important that you set this incident against the background of the fairly poisonous attitudes towards women in the game industry in general.
Many people here asked the question "would you care if this was a male torso?" But the answer is that it isn't, and never will be. And think about that, why not? Why is it a female torso? This should again be seen in the context of the unequal treatment of men and women in the games industry. I believe inequality in treatment is harmful, yes. I believe reducing a woman to a pair of tits and putting that on the market is harmful, because is furthers the belief that that is somehow okay. That it's okay to see woman as sexual objects. It reinforces widely held negative beliefs.
That's why it's important to speak out against it.
And if he knows she wouldn't buy it if she saw this, like he said, you're saying buy it before she sees it.
It's only an issue if she buying the collector's edition, in which case she will see it. The statue don't affect the regular edition none.