I don't think it's fair to punish a games company as a whole for a stupid marketing department.
The marketing department is still part of the company and they don't operate in a vacuum. The ONLY WAY to show that you disapprove that they will give a rat's ass about is to not give them money.
Oh look our reptitive middle of the road zombie game didn't sell. Must be because of the boob statue.
VS
Oh look our reptitive middle of the road zombie game did sell but the boob statue didn't. Also we have loyal customers mailing in to specifically tell us how they would have spent more were it not for the boob statue.
One is trying to shut the company out of making anything again, the other is both targeted and more likely to give them a reason to listen in that actual customers who give a shit about their products are complaining.
No, actually both are doing your #2. The difference is they're guaranteed to listen with the first whereas there's zero assurance anyone other then the admin that opens the mail will ever see the letters.
0
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
I think it's fair to punish a company for their poor marketing choices. I also won't hold it against anyone for choosing to boycott the game over this.
I'm not sure it's fair to punish yourself for a company's poor marketing choices. I mean, I won't hold it against anyone for buying this despite this situation. I admit, I still will, because the marketing company may be a bunch of daft fools but the original Dead Island was one of my favorite games and I'm not going to spite myself because their marketing and sales department is loony. I won't be buying the Collector's Edition.
That said, I think this is disgusting. Sure, horror film swag exists. But has there ever been an instance where that swag was literally nothing but a pair of tits in a box? And even if so, it was wrong then too.
People that are bringing up examples of other existing swag or media of this nature do not seem to comprehend the argument. This is clearly objectification of women. It is an object that is literally nothing but a pair of breasts. You'd be hard pressed to find a more clear-cut case of objectification.
The fact that such objectification already exists in the horror genre doesn't make this example any better. The status quo is not necessarily good. Just because something has been accepted as tradition before doesn't mean we need to continue to accept it. Tradition is constantly up for public review, especially with regard to an important topic such as this.
So blowing this off as trivial because "this kind of thing already exists" is dismissive silly goosery.
USA flags for a thing they said was only for the UK . . . .
This is how to fail completely. Can't even lie correctly.
They proved that when they called it a zombie torso.
When PR lies to damage control, they always wind up just doing way more harm than good. A better example of a PR apology (on the exact same subject, no less) can be seen from a few days ago when ESPN had apologize because Brent Musberger spent several minutes talking about how hot AJ Mccarron's girlfriend was during the BCS national title game. They came out, said it was inappropriate, apologized, and promised to learn from it. They didn't try to spin it as some sort of misunderstanding.
I'm not confident in my lying-skills. So instead of getting caught with lies, I avoid lies. Either this is not the professional way to handle that lack of confidence, or unskilled professionals have an abundance of confidence.
And it just sucks because she LOVES this game. I mean, it really is like finding out your favorite athlete is an asshole. I feel bad that I'm going to have to show her that her favorite (for better or worse) guilty pleasure game really doesn't give a shit about her as a fan, or person.
Why do you feel it's somehow your duty to tell her that Santa aint real? Buy her the game, and if she someday stumbles upon the stupid special edition on her own, that's that and she'll deal with it however she chooses. Meanwhile, just let her enjoy the game.
This is the worst advice ever. "Fool her before she's offended."
You simply cannot this that's a good idea.
Who's fooling anyone? She wants to buy a game, so let her.
And if he knows she wouldn't buy it if she saw this, like he said, you're saying buy it before she sees it.
It's only an issue if she buying the collector's edition, in which case she will see it. The statue don't affect the regular edition none.
Man you know full well what is being said here
Seeing the statue would change her perception of the company that decided it was okay to publish that, and with it her willingness to spend money on that company in general.
Having that knowledge and then deliberately keeping it from her is... I don't even know what to say. It's not a good relationship move.
+1
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
I am not punishing myself for choosing not to buy this game, instead I am choosing to use an incredibly limited resource in time and money elsewhere. Something else I wouldn't have bought or had the time to play, I will now have the money/time to play.
I lose absolutely nothing out of my decision not to buy the game really.
It's part of the horror genre, and you can argue it's not right, and harmful but I genuinally struggle to see to whom.
I can't even express how easily it would be for you to look up hundreds of reason that will show you why but I'm guessing you won't anyway.
I'd like to think I've tried to be pretty honest with how I feel on this issue, there's no need to be agressive regarding it. I've an unpopular point of view, I'll accept that.
Perhaps it's a cultural thing, take the metro (a UK paper) article:
The wording of the statement suggests that the complaints came from America not Europe, but either way we’re waiting on a final decision.
I personally just don't see it as that big a deal.
Also:
And no woman I know isn't so that cancels you out, right? Woman can be just as affected and buy into this shit as men can. It excuses nothing just because the women you know are ignorant of what's being done to them.
I'd just like to think they're perhaps more accepting and open minded, and don't feel that anything is being "done to them". Again, cultural differences? Some of them think "ew, gross" but not because it's a woman's body, but because it's a bloodied torso.
It's a crap example but I'm reminded of the South Park episode with the South Park flag, where 4 white guys are hanging a black guy. Some of the kids don't see it as racist purely because they're completely blind to the colour. They just see it as 4 guys hanging another guy. Maybe the people I've showed it to to gauge reaction have just seen it as a bloodied torso?
It's not fair to describe them as ignorant because they don't share the same views as you/those you know.
It's part of the horror genre, and you can argue it's not right, and harmful but I genuinally struggle to see to whom.
I can't even express how easily it would be for you to look up hundreds of reason that will show you why but I'm guessing you won't anyway.
I'd like to think I've tried to be pretty honest with how I feel on this issue, there's no need to be agressive regarding it. I've an unpopular point of view, I'll accept that.
Perhaps it's a cultural thing, take the metro (a UK paper) article:
The wording of the statement suggests that the complaints came from America not Europe, but either way we’re waiting on a final decision.
I personally just don't see it as that big a deal.
Also:
And no woman I know isn't so that cancels you out, right? Woman can be just as affected and buy into this shit as men can. It excuses nothing just because the women you know are ignorant of what's being done to them.
I'd just like to think they're perhaps more accepting and open minded, and don't feel that anything is being "done to them". Again, cultural differences? Some of them think "ew, gross" but not because it's a woman's body, but because it's a bloodied torso.
It's a crap example but I'm reminded of the South Park episode with the South Park flag, where 4 white guys are hanging a black guy. Some of the kids don't see it as racist purely because they're completely blind to the colour. They just see it as 4 guys hanging another guy. Maybe the people I've showed it to to gauge reaction have just seen it as a bloodied torso?
It's not fair to describe them as ignorant because they don't share the same views as you/those you know.
You just literally used the "you're racist for pointing out racism" argument.
Also, more behavior from the developer / publisher that makes them appear to not think much of women.
This I can agree with.
I was not planning on playing riptide, because I just finished the first game as part of my backlog challenge and was already turned off by the horrible cutscenes in the game including one where the two male player characters blame a female npc for getting raped. So yeah compared to the misogynistic piece of shit the first game was I barely raise my eyebrows to the torso.
Oh God, this was literally blocked out of my memory.
Yeah, that was ridiculous. I think one of them even said "leave the bitch to die" or something.
If I remember right, they were in the middle of Z town, and bringing her with them would have been dangerous to them. So while not very nice, it does make sense for the guy. Why put them in danger for anyone else?
Oh no, it was way worse than that.
Basically the girl (who keep in mind is no older than 16) was duped to help the bad guys because they convinced her they were desperate for food and sanctuary. Instead, they invade the area, you're forced to fend them off and eventually rescue the girl only to find her beaten and emotionally distraught. They don't outright say she was raped but it's practically spelled out.
So the two female characters in the group are consoling her while the two males are practically saying "you got what you deserved bitch" with their eyes, and literally saying it with their mouths.
In hindsight, it's worse than this silly statue nonsense, or at least indicative of the problem.
I skipped pretty much all the story, so I missed that.
That's incredibly troubling and doesn't make me much inclined towards benefit of the doubt.
Snuggles you missed the part where she stole the supplies and trucks and didn't listen to them saying running to help the enemy was a bad idea. They're not angry at her for getting raped, they're angry at her for STEALING from them and then running straight into the bad guy's headquarters to try and help out like a naive kid. You have to rescue her after telling her straight out "Dont do this" and she didn't listen.
That makes it worse to me since it almost seems like the male characters are victim blaming with their tone. Honestly, the game does a real shitty job at emotionally charged moments and ends up with either laughable schlock or offensive garbage.
I am not punishing myself for choosing not to buy this game, instead I am choosing to use an incredibly limited resource in time and money elsewhere. Something else I wouldn't have bought or had the time to play, I will now have the money/time to play.
I lose absolutely nothing out of my decision not to buy the game really.
But I do, because I've been waiting for this sequel. I know people had mixed feelings about Dead Island, but for many reasons I thought it was the most enjoyable example of the Borderlands-esque formula.
So for me a boycott would be a substantial loss because I have been waiting to spend my time and money on this sequel.
My point being: This is an issue I'm concerned with, and I think the company needs to understand that this is not good, but I won't begrudge anyone willing to buy the game despite this. I think a public backlash - which I support - is good, but I don't think buying the game itself while taking issue with and arguing against this PR stunt is inconsistent.
Drez on
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0
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
I really liked the first game as well, but I have plenty of games to play and I don't have to play this one. Even if I did really enjoy the first game and was very much looking forward to this.
There isn't a lack of things I am excited about and want to play this year however.
It's part of the horror genre, and you can argue it's not right, and harmful but I genuinally struggle to see to whom.
I can't even express how easily it would be for you to look up hundreds of reason that will show you why but I'm guessing you won't anyway.
I'd like to think I've tried to be pretty honest with how I feel on this issue, there's no need to be agressive regarding it. I've an unpopular point of view, I'll accept that.
Perhaps it's a cultural thing, take the metro (a UK paper) article:
The wording of the statement suggests that the complaints came from America not Europe, but either way we’re waiting on a final decision.
I personally just don't see it as that big a deal.
Also:
And no woman I know isn't so that cancels you out, right? Woman can be just as affected and buy into this shit as men can. It excuses nothing just because the women you know are ignorant of what's being done to them.
I'd just like to think they're perhaps more accepting and open minded, and don't feel that anything is being "done to them". Again, cultural differences? Some of them think "ew, gross" but not because it's a woman's body, but because it's a bloodied torso.
It's a crap example but I'm reminded of the South Park episode with the South Park flag, where 4 white guys are hanging a black guy. Some of the kids don't see it as racist purely because they're completely blind to the colour. They just see it as 4 guys hanging another guy. Maybe the people I've showed it to to gauge reaction have just seen it as a bloodied torso?
It's not fair to describe them as ignorant because they don't share the same views as you/those you know.
So you think these women you know have sat and pondered the ramifications of exploitative horror tropes on gender equality issues and after doing said pondering decided "nah, that's not for me - bring on the dismembered titty torsos!"
Because a lot of us have done that pondering. Maybe I'm being unfair and presumptive but I doubt you or your friends have. So, yes, the position that was not derived from said pondering is necessarily more ignorant than the position that is derived from actual research into the ramifications of a situation like this.
If I was going to boycott this game the torso wouldn't have anything to do with it, it's not even being sold with it here, it's the UK marketing department's thing
And it just sucks because she LOVES this game. I mean, it really is like finding out your favorite athlete is an asshole. I feel bad that I'm going to have to show her that her favorite (for better or worse) guilty pleasure game really doesn't give a shit about her as a fan, or person.
Why do you feel it's somehow your duty to tell her that Santa aint real? Buy her the game, and if she someday stumbles upon the stupid special edition on her own, that's that and she'll deal with it however she chooses. Meanwhile, just let her enjoy the game.
This is the worst advice ever. "Fool her before she's offended."
You simply cannot this that's a good idea.
Who's fooling anyone? She wants to buy a game, so let her.
And if he knows she wouldn't buy it if she saw this, like he said, you're saying buy it before she sees it.
It's only an issue if she buying the collector's edition, in which case she will see it. The statue don't affect the regular edition none.
Man you know full well what is being said here
Seeing the statue would change her perception of the company that decided it was okay to publish that, and with it her willingness to spend money on that company in general.
Having that knowledge and then deliberately keeping it from her is... I don't even know what to say. It's not a good relationship move.
Yeah, I mean that's my point. Honestly, if she sees it and says lets buy it used, lets buy the regular edition, whatever - she's an adult, she can spend her money on anything. I can't, and won't stop her.
But we've been together for a little while, and I know she wouldn't support this, and am sad that it will in effect make the previous game less enjoyable to her, when I know she loved it so much.
That's what bothers me the most. As a women who plays, and likes, games, it is interesting to watch what she plays, and what she likes and see her react to things. It's made me much more aware of stuff I never really noticed before when it comes to women being portrayed in games. So it's a huge bummer to me that this is pretty much going to be a big step backwards in her overall feeling towards the industry.
That said, and not to derail the thread, I am happy that she thinks the new Tomb Raider looks great, and has said after seeing all the trailers that she likes how 'normal' Lara looks. I asked her if she felt that the abuse she takes from every angle was too much, and she responded "why? Its what all those guys you play as do to each other all the time."
Which, not to rehash that argument or discussion, and to tie it back to this, has made me realize that there's some difference in the whole "well would you be mad if it was a guy?" argument. I guess thats a topic for the other thread though, but I would get into it a little here if that's a road anyone feels is worth going down.
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And it just sucks because she LOVES this game. I mean, it really is like finding out your favorite athlete is an asshole. I feel bad that I'm going to have to show her that her favorite (for better or worse) guilty pleasure game really doesn't give a shit about her as a fan, or person.
Why do you feel it's somehow your duty to tell her that Santa aint real? Buy her the game, and if she someday stumbles upon the stupid special edition on her own, that's that and she'll deal with it however she chooses. Meanwhile, just let her enjoy the game.
This is the worst advice ever. "Fool her before she's offended."
You simply cannot this that's a good idea.
Who's fooling anyone? She wants to buy a game, so let her.
And if he knows she wouldn't buy it if she saw this, like he said, you're saying buy it before she sees it.
It's only an issue if she buying the collector's edition, in which case she will see it. The statue don't affect the regular edition none.
Well, that's where you're wrong. The company making the regular edition is the exact same as the company that trying one of the worst stunts in video game marketing history in an effort simply to make more money. If you can somehow seperate them in your world view, great. Happily, I am unable to do that.
Magic Pink on
+1
AxenMy avatar is Excalibur.Yes, the sword.Registered Userregular
And it just sucks because she LOVES this game. I mean, it really is like finding out your favorite athlete is an asshole. I feel bad that I'm going to have to show her that her favorite (for better or worse) guilty pleasure game really doesn't give a shit about her as a fan, or person.
Why do you feel it's somehow your duty to tell her that Santa aint real? Buy her the game, and if she someday stumbles upon the stupid special edition on her own, that's that and she'll deal with it however she chooses. Meanwhile, just let her enjoy the game.
This is the worst advice ever. "Fool her before she's offended."
You simply cannot this that's a good idea.
Who's fooling anyone? She wants to buy a game, so let her.
And if he knows she wouldn't buy it if she saw this, like he said, you're saying buy it before she sees it.
It's only an issue if she buying the collector's edition, in which case she will see it. The statue don't affect the regular edition none.
Well, that's where you're wrong. The company making the regular edition is the exact same as the company that trying one of the worst stunts in video game marketing history in an effort simply to make more money. If you can somehow seperate them in your world view, great. Happily, I am unable to do that.
While I certainly can't argue that it is the same company, I can say that as someone who worked for a company with a marketing department they might as well be different entities. I highly doubt that the people who actually worked on this game had any say in the marketing of it.
You ever read/watched Dilbert? It often has a scarily accurate portrayal of marketing teams/departments.
Still, none of that really changes what a colossally terrible mistake this thing is/was and it is most assuredly going to reflect horribly on everyone who works there.
edit- Basically the God awful decision of a few people will reflect negatively on the entire company and honestly I do feel a (little) bit sorry for the general rank and file at Deep Silver.
Axen on
A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
Oh I do to. It sucks that hard working people who legitmately made a game I really really love have to get lumped in with some complete chowder heads who make terrible decisions but not giving them any more of my money, at all, for anything, is literally the only effective way to protest this. There are many other ways, true, but none of them have the oomph of cash behind it.
And if they pull this thing, I'll slap them with fat stacks of cash again, happily.
That said, show your girlfriend this thing, see if she still wants to get it?
I showed the statue to my wife and she didn't really think it was sexist until I explained it to her. But even then she kinda shrugged it off saying it was ugly and hoped that I wouldn't get it and put it in my room (I am a sucker for statues). This one I am skipping on. Still getting DI2 but holy shit they dropped the ball on this... If it was a zombie head I would be ALL over it (as would many of us, I'm sure). I just don't get their line of thinking.
the horrible cutscenes in the game including one where the two male player characters blame a female npc for getting raped.
Holy shit, really?
A friend was telling me about it this morning when the news about this stupid statue broke.
Yeah, I remember that. It was very much implied and not clear what the point of that scene was but it still left me intensely uncomfortable. Now I know why.
I recall this bit, and while the particulars are fuzzy, I pretty distinctly remember the two male characters (you play one of four people, but all 4 people generally show up in the cutscenes) being utter assholes about the matter, at which point the two female characters tell them off and take the woman off screen to console her.
Which of course plays into a whole array of stereotypes, and I'm in no way defending their bullshit past or present.
Late edit: I was still catching up on the thread, I see that scene does get further discussion. I'd forgotten about her betrayal, but it was still pretty vile at the time.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
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AxenMy avatar is Excalibur.Yes, the sword.Registered Userregular
edited January 2013
@Magic_Pink
I agree. It sucks for the rank and file, but that is the nature of the beast.
I am willing to bet good money that the people who work at Deep Silver who are not in the marketing department or in high level decision making positions probably found out about this thing the same day we did.
@urahonky
Yeah, as I mentioned yesterday I showed this off to a female friend (who is a big zombie genre fan and has plenty of posters and statues I consider "gross") and her biggest complaint with it is that it had nothing to do with the zombie genre. She later told me that if the thing had a zombie head and an arm reaching out (or something like that) then she'd probably want one, "sexy" female torso and all.
And honestly, if this thing did have that I'd probably have no opinion on it. It wouldn't be for me, but at the same time I probably wouldn't have been as disgusted by it.
edit- To be perfectly honest with you fine folks I am not the most "PC" person out there. When it comes to arguments of misogyny and sexism I generally leave the arguing to people more "in the know" then myself. I'm a hetero male, I enjoy looking at scantily clad women, but this thing is just so objectionably awful that it offends even me. That, is damn impressive.
Axen on
A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
the horrible cutscenes in the game including one where the two male player characters blame a female npc for getting raped.
Holy shit, really?
A friend was telling me about it this morning when the news about this stupid statue broke.
Yeah, I remember that. It was very much implied and not clear what the point of that scene was but it still left me intensely uncomfortable. Now I know why.
I recall this bit, and while the particulars are fuzzy, I pretty distinctly remember the two male characters (you play one of four people, but all 4 people generally show up in the cutscenes) being utter assholes about the matter, at which point the two female characters tell them off and take the woman off screen to console her.
Which of course plays into a whole array of stereotypes, and I'm in no way defending their bullshit past or present.
Yeah, it was a very poorly done scene and honestly can be interpreted several different ways. The baseline interpretation, of course, being "that was dumb".
+1
MordaRazgromМорда РазгромRuling the Taffer KingdomRegistered Userregular
I think a big problem is that our world's entertainers are tripping over themselves trying to out-"edge" each other. The weirder and flashier and more shocking that they can get the better it is they think. A lot of times when you're trying to be edgy, and you have a lot of ideas, but see that a lot of them have been done before, but you're still trying to be unique and creative, you kind of fall flat on your face. The massive tits on the abomination are a pretty terrible, however it regular business in the horror business to have such things. I really don't think they intended the tits to feature so prominently, but they probably left their common sense hats at home that would have told them that a female torso, when it is JUST a torso would completely emphasize the breasts.
I think the thing is horrible, however I can see where they were going with it. It's a zombie game, a half-eaten corpse statue just kind of fits in with the motif here. Personally, I would have gone with the statue, but made it male, for the reason I stated above that if you have a female torso statue you can't help but have the breasts be the main focus of everyone's eyes. As to whether it's a tasteful addition to a collection (being a half-eaten corpse), well that's just a matter of taste, I'm sure some people out there would be stoked to have a zombie prop like this.
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0
CuvisTheConquerorThey always say "yee haw" but they never ask "haw yee?" Registered Userregular
You all know this is what they want, right? They want us all to go on and on and on about how offensive this is, because that generates publicity for them. And there is no such thing as bad publicity.
This will outsell the first game, and the controversy generated by this disgusting, disgusting move will be the reason why. Mark my words.
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Zxerolfor the smaller pieces, my shovel wouldn't doso i took off my boot and used my shoeRegistered Userregular
edited January 2013
Realtalk though, most potential buyers won't even know this exists, save for Internet video gaming dorks like us. We don't comprise the majority. Most would see the game on the shelf, think, "oh, a zombie game? I love me some zombies!" and that's that. Or maybe if they played the previous game and just found out there's a new sequel out. You assume people are massively informed about pre order shit, which is specifically for the informed enthusiasts.
To say least of those outside the UK and Austrailia where this pre order doesn't exist.
Doesn't make it any less god damned shitty, mind.
E: should be properly "collector's" rather than "pre order" , but w/e
Unless you're saying that a negative result for the company is still a positive result for the consumers which means that technically the publicity led to a positive result overall.
Or like, they had too many users and the resulting loss of traffic has saved them money on servers?
You all know this is what they want, right? They want us all to go on and on and on about how offensive this is, because that generates publicity for them. And there is no such thing as bad publicity.
This will outsell the first game, and the controversy generated by this disgusting, disgusting move will be the reason why. Mark my words.
It's very much worth talking about though. Even if they get a bunch of sales from this, the more important end result is that it gets people thinking about the toxic attitude towards women in video games and the surrounding culture.
+2
MordaRazgromМорда РазгромRuling the Taffer KingdomRegistered Userregular
There is no such thing as bad publicity when you're a no-name. This has been proven time and time again with sex tapes, DUI's and other such shenanigans. When you are a well-established name in an industry, however, bad publicity is truly BAD publicity. If Dead Island were falling out of relevance, then I could see the logic that they want to get their name out no matter what, however they are not in the "stagnation" period of a company, therefore something like this could and will truly hurt them in the short term and possibly in the long term if they don't handle it properly...an apology is a good first step, it shows they at least recognize their facepalm moment.
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As a woman, I'm devastated this statue won't be making it to market. It would be a great way to notice assholes right as soon as I enter their home, letting me immediately flee.
Wait, so people are mad at the game for characters not having compasion or being decent human beings when one of them spent the night before the zombie attacks on stage singing "WHO-DO YOUR VOODOO, BITCH"? From what I remember the other guy PC was an asshole/alchoholic as well. If the situation gets handled correctly by at least some of the characters, it dosent sound negative or condoning at all. It sounds like characters being in character. Does every character have to be suddenly surprizingly progressive every time a sensitive subject comes up?
Wasn't a major theme of the game that people were terrible in general, and not just in emergencies?
As a woman, I'm devastated this statue won't be making it to market. It would be a great way to notice assholes right as soon as I enter their home, letting me immediately flee.
You probably wouldn't see it right away. I keep my chest toys in a toy chest.
MordaRazgromМорда РазгромRuling the Taffer KingdomRegistered Userregular
I think people are mad at the game because the company created a statue of massive breasts in order to entice people to buy the game.
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No, actually both are doing your #2. The difference is they're guaranteed to listen with the first whereas there's zero assurance anyone other then the admin that opens the mail will ever see the letters.
Really? I mean really? Is it suddenly okay to denigrate women when you know their name?
Ooh, I like the way you think.
I'm not sure it's fair to punish yourself for a company's poor marketing choices. I mean, I won't hold it against anyone for buying this despite this situation. I admit, I still will, because the marketing company may be a bunch of daft fools but the original Dead Island was one of my favorite games and I'm not going to spite myself because their marketing and sales department is loony. I won't be buying the Collector's Edition.
That said, I think this is disgusting. Sure, horror film swag exists. But has there ever been an instance where that swag was literally nothing but a pair of tits in a box? And even if so, it was wrong then too.
People that are bringing up examples of other existing swag or media of this nature do not seem to comprehend the argument. This is clearly objectification of women. It is an object that is literally nothing but a pair of breasts. You'd be hard pressed to find a more clear-cut case of objectification.
The fact that such objectification already exists in the horror genre doesn't make this example any better. The status quo is not necessarily good. Just because something has been accepted as tradition before doesn't mean we need to continue to accept it. Tradition is constantly up for public review, especially with regard to an important topic such as this.
So blowing this off as trivial because "this kind of thing already exists" is dismissive silly goosery.
I'm not confident in my lying-skills. So instead of getting caught with lies, I avoid lies. Either this is not the professional way to handle that lack of confidence, or unskilled professionals have an abundance of confidence.
Man you know full well what is being said here
Seeing the statue would change her perception of the company that decided it was okay to publish that, and with it her willingness to spend money on that company in general.
Having that knowledge and then deliberately keeping it from her is... I don't even know what to say. It's not a good relationship move.
I lose absolutely nothing out of my decision not to buy the game really.
I'd like to think I've tried to be pretty honest with how I feel on this issue, there's no need to be agressive regarding it. I've an unpopular point of view, I'll accept that.
Perhaps it's a cultural thing, take the metro (a UK paper) article:
I personally just don't see it as that big a deal.
Also:
I'd just like to think they're perhaps more accepting and open minded, and don't feel that anything is being "done to them". Again, cultural differences? Some of them think "ew, gross" but not because it's a woman's body, but because it's a bloodied torso.
It's a crap example but I'm reminded of the South Park episode with the South Park flag, where 4 white guys are hanging a black guy. Some of the kids don't see it as racist purely because they're completely blind to the colour. They just see it as 4 guys hanging another guy. Maybe the people I've showed it to to gauge reaction have just seen it as a bloodied torso?
It's not fair to describe them as ignorant because they don't share the same views as you/those you know.
PSN: SirGrinchX
Oculus Rift: Sir_Grinch
You just literally used the "you're racist for pointing out racism" argument.
Read this thread.
I thought Sam B was supposed to be an asshole
I just fail to find this a big deal, hence it's probably more ignorance on my behalf than anything else.
PSN: SirGrinchX
Oculus Rift: Sir_Grinch
But I do, because I've been waiting for this sequel. I know people had mixed feelings about Dead Island, but for many reasons I thought it was the most enjoyable example of the Borderlands-esque formula.
So for me a boycott would be a substantial loss because I have been waiting to spend my time and money on this sequel.
My point being: This is an issue I'm concerned with, and I think the company needs to understand that this is not good, but I won't begrudge anyone willing to buy the game despite this. I think a public backlash - which I support - is good, but I don't think buying the game itself while taking issue with and arguing against this PR stunt is inconsistent.
There isn't a lack of things I am excited about and want to play this year however.
Currently playing: GW2 and TSW
So you think these women you know have sat and pondered the ramifications of exploitative horror tropes on gender equality issues and after doing said pondering decided "nah, that's not for me - bring on the dismembered titty torsos!"
Because a lot of us have done that pondering. Maybe I'm being unfair and presumptive but I doubt you or your friends have. So, yes, the position that was not derived from said pondering is necessarily more ignorant than the position that is derived from actual research into the ramifications of a situation like this.
Yeah, I mean that's my point. Honestly, if she sees it and says lets buy it used, lets buy the regular edition, whatever - she's an adult, she can spend her money on anything. I can't, and won't stop her.
But we've been together for a little while, and I know she wouldn't support this, and am sad that it will in effect make the previous game less enjoyable to her, when I know she loved it so much.
That's what bothers me the most. As a women who plays, and likes, games, it is interesting to watch what she plays, and what she likes and see her react to things. It's made me much more aware of stuff I never really noticed before when it comes to women being portrayed in games. So it's a huge bummer to me that this is pretty much going to be a big step backwards in her overall feeling towards the industry.
That said, and not to derail the thread, I am happy that she thinks the new Tomb Raider looks great, and has said after seeing all the trailers that she likes how 'normal' Lara looks. I asked her if she felt that the abuse she takes from every angle was too much, and she responded "why? Its what all those guys you play as do to each other all the time."
Which, not to rehash that argument or discussion, and to tie it back to this, has made me realize that there's some difference in the whole "well would you be mad if it was a guy?" argument. I guess thats a topic for the other thread though, but I would get into it a little here if that's a road anyone feels is worth going down.
Well, that's where you're wrong. The company making the regular edition is the exact same as the company that trying one of the worst stunts in video game marketing history in an effort simply to make more money. If you can somehow seperate them in your world view, great. Happily, I am unable to do that.
While I certainly can't argue that it is the same company, I can say that as someone who worked for a company with a marketing department they might as well be different entities. I highly doubt that the people who actually worked on this game had any say in the marketing of it.
You ever read/watched Dilbert? It often has a scarily accurate portrayal of marketing teams/departments.
Still, none of that really changes what a colossally terrible mistake this thing is/was and it is most assuredly going to reflect horribly on everyone who works there.
edit- Basically the God awful decision of a few people will reflect negatively on the entire company and honestly I do feel a (little) bit sorry for the general rank and file at Deep Silver.
And if they pull this thing, I'll slap them with fat stacks of cash again, happily.
I showed the statue to my wife and she didn't really think it was sexist until I explained it to her. But even then she kinda shrugged it off saying it was ugly and hoped that I wouldn't get it and put it in my room (I am a sucker for statues). This one I am skipping on. Still getting DI2 but holy shit they dropped the ball on this... If it was a zombie head I would be ALL over it (as would many of us, I'm sure). I just don't get their line of thinking.
I recall this bit, and while the particulars are fuzzy, I pretty distinctly remember the two male characters (you play one of four people, but all 4 people generally show up in the cutscenes) being utter assholes about the matter, at which point the two female characters tell them off and take the woman off screen to console her.
Which of course plays into a whole array of stereotypes, and I'm in no way defending their bullshit past or present.
Late edit: I was still catching up on the thread, I see that scene does get further discussion. I'd forgotten about her betrayal, but it was still pretty vile at the time.
I agree. It sucks for the rank and file, but that is the nature of the beast.
I am willing to bet good money that the people who work at Deep Silver who are not in the marketing department or in high level decision making positions probably found out about this thing the same day we did.
@urahonky
Yeah, as I mentioned yesterday I showed this off to a female friend (who is a big zombie genre fan and has plenty of posters and statues I consider "gross") and her biggest complaint with it is that it had nothing to do with the zombie genre. She later told me that if the thing had a zombie head and an arm reaching out (or something like that) then she'd probably want one, "sexy" female torso and all.
And honestly, if this thing did have that I'd probably have no opinion on it. It wouldn't be for me, but at the same time I probably wouldn't have been as disgusted by it.
edit- To be perfectly honest with you fine folks I am not the most "PC" person out there. When it comes to arguments of misogyny and sexism I generally leave the arguing to people more "in the know" then myself. I'm a hetero male, I enjoy looking at scantily clad women, but this thing is just so objectionably awful that it offends even me. That, is damn impressive.
Yeah, it was a very poorly done scene and honestly can be interpreted several different ways. The baseline interpretation, of course, being "that was dumb".
I think the thing is horrible, however I can see where they were going with it. It's a zombie game, a half-eaten corpse statue just kind of fits in with the motif here. Personally, I would have gone with the statue, but made it male, for the reason I stated above that if you have a female torso statue you can't help but have the breasts be the main focus of everyone's eyes. As to whether it's a tasteful addition to a collection (being a half-eaten corpse), well that's just a matter of taste, I'm sure some people out there would be stoked to have a zombie prop like this.
WiiU Username: MordaRazgrom
Steam Username: MordaRazgrom
WoW/Diablo 3 Battlenet Battletag: MordaRazgrom#1755
Me and my wife have a gamer YouTube page if interested www.youtube.com/TeamMarriage
This will outsell the first game, and the controversy generated by this disgusting, disgusting move will be the reason why. Mark my words.
To say least of those outside the UK and Austrailia where this pre order doesn't exist.
Doesn't make it any less god damned shitty, mind.
E: should be properly "collector's" rather than "pre order" , but w/e
There actually is.
As one recent example, Instagram's TOS change has caused all sorts of bad publicity, leading to a loss of half their users over the course of a month.
Unless you're saying that a negative result for the company is still a positive result for the consumers which means that technically the publicity led to a positive result overall.
Or like, they had too many users and the resulting loss of traffic has saved them money on servers?
...or that.
WiiU Username: MordaRazgrom
Steam Username: MordaRazgrom
WoW/Diablo 3 Battlenet Battletag: MordaRazgrom#1755
Me and my wife have a gamer YouTube page if interested www.youtube.com/TeamMarriage
Wasn't a major theme of the game that people were terrible in general, and not just in emergencies?
You probably wouldn't see it right away. I keep my chest toys in a toy chest.
WiiU Username: MordaRazgrom
Steam Username: MordaRazgrom
WoW/Diablo 3 Battlenet Battletag: MordaRazgrom#1755
Me and my wife have a gamer YouTube page if interested www.youtube.com/TeamMarriage