As was foretold, we've added advertisements to the forums! If you have questions, or if you encounter any bugs, please visit this thread: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240191/forum-advertisement-faq-and-reports-thread/
Options

Dead Island PR come up with most appalling idea in history of gaming PR

1356758

Posts

  • Options
    HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    Which game was it that had a marketing gimmick where they slaughtered a goat and had people touch its entrails? Was that dante's inferno? The same game that sent real checks out with review copies?

    To me, this is just another example of how terrible video game marketing is.

    That was one of the God of War games, and it was somewhere in Europe. Forget where. That was fucking crazy-town too though. The existence of that doesn't make this any less inappropriate and vice versa.

    Why are you extrapolating from my examples any level of acceptance of these sorts of gimmicks? I'm adding to the conversation with examples of how disgusting the marketing for this industry is. It's becoming increasingly obvious that the marketing isn't accurately reflecting the mindset of consumers, so why do they keep trying to push the boundry?

    I dunno why, but marketing guys don't operate on their own without approval from the people they represent. That's the path to lawsuit town. So any suggestion that "Oh, just the marketing is to blame" is incorrect. The developers / publisher gave the OK stamp on this. Whether or not it was meant to get this reaction is missing the point. The fact is, they did it, and it's disturbing.


    Developers usually have little to no say in marketing matters.

    You're right, I was wrong in saying that. Forgot that's precisely part of what publishers do for devs.

  • Options
    TubeTube Registered User admin
    vsove wrote: »
    'These people' include a lot of people on these forums.

    To be fair to these forums, I've never seen a debate about gender issues on this board where the "shut up feminazis!" crowd wasn't vastly outnumbered.

  • Options
    SmokeStacksSmokeStacks Registered User regular
    I'm just tired of trying to defend the industry I love when it's the industry that spews out shit like this.

    Take that how you will.

  • Options
    rRootagearRootagea MadisonRegistered User regular
    edited January 2013
    Is there a source confirming this is even real?
    edit: nvm, I guess joystiq has a press release statement

    rRootagea on
  • Options
    curly haired boycurly haired boy Your Friendly Neighborhood Torgue Dealer Registered User regular
    WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH MARKETING

    JEEZ

    1) that 'statue' is hideous and ugly and holy shit you could not display that in any home ever ever ever oh god burn that now

    2) there were so many completely awesome build-able weapons in the first game - why not just include a scale model of one of them?

    3) fuck that noise, just sculpt a generic zombie head and ship THAT if you want a statuette

    4) WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH MARKETING

    i honestly was really looking forward to dead island riptide, but they've lost a sale here. fuck that, i'm voting with my wallet, you do NOT get away with this shit.

    RxI0N.png
    Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
  • Options
    Skull2185Skull2185 Registered User regular
    edited January 2013
    Reading more of the replies in this thread, the increased backlash makes a bit more sense to me. I hadn't really thought it all the way through, I suppose. It isn't enough to keep me from purchasing the game though. I enjoyed the first one, and look forward to picking up the new one.

    Its like Elvenshae posted, their intent was to make a zombie Venus de Milo. Only, they royally fucked up...

    Skull2185 on
    Everyone has a price. Throw enough gold around and someone will risk disintegration.
  • Options
    gjaustingjaustin Registered User regular
    darleysam wrote: »
    Anita Sarkeesian and the entire videogame feminism movement is gonna have a fucking field day with this. It would be nice if we could go six months without giving those people ammunition.

    What kind of person actually wants a gory, freakishly big titted zombie torso sitting on their shelf? Did the people behind the design think it would be edgy or something?

    What exactly is wrong with 'those people' expressing their distaste of misogyny and sexism in the games industry?

    Many of us tend to strongly disagree with "those people" on their interpretation of whether or not certain things are "sexist".

    That isn't to say they're wrong all the time, just that we think they're wrong enough that we consider their views on the issue to be inaccurate.

    (DISCLAIMER: I am not familiar with Anita Sarkeesian specifically. I'm speaking in generalizations.)

  • Options
    TheSonicRetardTheSonicRetard Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    Which game was it that had a marketing gimmick where they slaughtered a goat and had people touch its entrails? Was that dante's inferno? The same game that sent real checks out with review copies?

    To me, this is just another example of how terrible video game marketing is.

    That was one of the God of War games, and it was somewhere in Europe. Forget where. That was fucking crazy-town too though. The existence of that doesn't make this any less inappropriate and vice versa.

    Why are you extrapolating from my examples any level of acceptance of these sorts of gimmicks? I'm adding to the conversation with examples of how disgusting the marketing for this industry is. It's becoming increasingly obvious that the marketing isn't accurately reflecting the mindset of consumers, so why do they keep trying to push the boundry?

    I dunno why, but marketing guys don't operate on their own without approval from the people they represent. That's the path to lawsuit town. So any suggestion that "Oh, just the marketing is to blame" is incorrect. The developers / publisher gave the OK stamp on this. Whether or not it was meant to get this reaction is missing the point. The fact is, they did it, and it's disturbing.


    Developers usually have little to no say in marketing matters.

    You're right, I was wrong in saying that. Forgot that's precisely part of what publishers do for devs.

    That's not meant to absolve the developers, btw. The developers of dead island have a history of gafs all their own. Just pointing the finger in the right direction on this particular one.

  • Options
    vsovevsove ....also yes. Registered User regular
    Tube wrote: »
    vsove wrote: »
    'These people' include a lot of people on these forums.

    To be fair to these forums, I've never seen a debate about gender issues on this board where the "shut up feminazis!" crowd wasn't vastly outnumbered.

    I agree! That's actually what I'm saying - as far as video game-focused boards go, this one is a lot more progressive than most. That was more of a comment that trying to paint Anita Sarkeesian and others like her as 'these people' is a pretty silly thing to do given how many of them are on these forums.

    That the #1reasonwhy thread went as well as it did is something that would likely not happen on most forums.

    WATCH THIS SPACE.
  • Options
    HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    Skull2185 wrote: »
    Reading more of the replies in this thread, the increased backlash makes a bit more sense to me. I hadn't really thought it all the way through, I suppose. It isn't enough to keep me from purchasing the game though. I enjoyed the first one, and look forward to picking up the new one.

    Its like Elvenshae posted, their intent was to make a zombie Venus de Milo. Only, they royally fucked up...

    I've seen a lot of people suggesting we're "playing right into their hands" or whatever. "Any publicity is good publicity" isn't necessarily a thing these days, unless you're talking about hits on a webpage. I'm sure these guys will sell some more CE's than they would've otherwise, but I have a feeling the overall sales are going to be below what's expected because of how appalling this is.

  • Options
    Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    Tube wrote: »
    ...would definitely be just as horrible in terms of being exploitative. And for the record, calling a white person a cracker is racist; the boards prohibit racist terms, but you'll get a free pass on that because it applies to "only" white people. And if it's okay to say something racist about one color of people but not the others, that's racism.

    As the prevailing expert on what is and is not allowed on this forum, anyone using the word "cracker" in a hateful way would be booted off the boards in exactly the same way as any other word. While we do have an explicit ban on one particular word, that was very much Not My Call.

    I figured as much, but still, the fact that we're openly discussing one racist term while another is expressly prohibited does nicely illustrate the definite double standard there. I'm not being overtly critical or anything and that discussion is off-topic, I just wanted to point out that people feeling one racist term is okay, for any reason, doesn't make it any less racist compared to other terms.

    Anyway, I wouldn't necessarily swear off all games from these guys. Did they have some shitty stuff coded into their last game? Yes, but that could've easily, easily been done by a very tiny group of people and overlooked entirely by the majority (lotsa code in video games) under time constraints. Is this bloody torso thing stupid and horrible? Yes, but that's a PR thing, not really the people making the game.

    That being said, the company definitely has a considerable obstacle to overcome now in order to prove that it isn't generally run by awful people willing to let awful things slip on past, which I entirely expect them to fail to overcome. Personal responsibility is a thing, and if the company doesn't adequately and fairly apply the consequences thereof, yeah, not really interested in supporting that kind of company.

  • Options
    TheSonicRetardTheSonicRetard Registered User regular
    I'm just tired of trying to defend the industry I love when it's the industry that spews out shit like this.

    Take that how you will.

    The industry isn't homogenous. You shouldn't hold one segment of the industry responsible for the actions of another.

  • Options
    AaronKIAaronKI Registered User regular
    Which game was it that had a marketing gimmick where they slaughtered a goat and had people touch its entrails? Was that dante's inferno? The same game that sent real checks out with review copies?

    To me, this is just another example of how terrible video game marketing is.

    One of the God of War games. It was a pretty dumb thing to do, but it's always blown out of proportion when someone brings it up. The goat was purchased in a prepared state from a butcher shop, not slaughtered on site.

    Dante's Inferno still had its own series of pants-on-head stupid marketing stunts, though.

    soempty.jpg
  • Options
    SmokeStacksSmokeStacks Registered User regular
    I'm just tired of trying to defend the industry I love when it's the industry that spews out shit like this.

    Take that how you will.

    The industry isn't homogenous. You shouldn't hold one segment of the industry responsible for the actions of another.

    "Well, see, only some of the people in the industry are cool with the idea of making a statue of a scantily clad brutalized woman's torso..." doesn't hold a lot of water when you're discussing videogame politics.

  • Options
    HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    AaronKI wrote: »
    Which game was it that had a marketing gimmick where they slaughtered a goat and had people touch its entrails? Was that dante's inferno? The same game that sent real checks out with review copies?

    To me, this is just another example of how terrible video game marketing is.

    One of the God of War games. It was a pretty dumb thing to do, but it's always blown out of proportion when someone brings it up. The goat was purchased in a prepared state from a butcher shop, not slaughtered on site.

    Dante's Inferno still had its own series of pants-on-head stupid marketing stunts, though.

    Dante's Inferno was suffering from one of the project leads not shutting the fuck up about tits. And he was vastly ignorant of how well-read Dante's Divine Comedy is.

  • Options
    Skull2185Skull2185 Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Skull2185 wrote: »
    Reading more of the replies in this thread, the increased backlash makes a bit more sense to me. I hadn't really thought it all the way through, I suppose. It isn't enough to keep me from purchasing the game though. I enjoyed the first one, and look forward to picking up the new one.

    Its like Elvenshae posted, their intent was to make a zombie Venus de Milo. Only, they royally fucked up...

    I've seen a lot of people suggesting we're "playing right into their hands" or whatever. "Any publicity is good publicity" isn't necessarily a thing these days, unless you're talking about hits on a webpage. I'm sure these guys will sell some more CE's than they would've otherwise, but I have a feeling the overall sales are going to be below what's expected because of how appalling this is.

    I'm guessing that the statue will never actually ship with the CE's. Deep Silver or whoever will issue an apology, and add something else to bundle. Then hope that in 3-4 months when the game launches, people will have forgotten/forgiven the gaffe and still pick up the game.

    That would be the smart move, anyway...

    Everyone has a price. Throw enough gold around and someone will risk disintegration.
  • Options
    TheSonicRetardTheSonicRetard Registered User regular
    AaronKI wrote: »
    Which game was it that had a marketing gimmick where they slaughtered a goat and had people touch its entrails? Was that dante's inferno? The same game that sent real checks out with review copies?

    To me, this is just another example of how terrible video game marketing is.

    One of the God of War games. It was a pretty dumb thing to do, but it's always blown out of proportion when someone brings it up. The goat was purchased in a prepared state from a butcher shop, not slaughtered on site.

    That makes it sound less disgusting, but it's still terrible marketing in my opinion. Not to mention that it sounds like a waste of meat.

  • Options
    curly haired boycurly haired boy Your Friendly Neighborhood Torgue Dealer Registered User regular
    it's stunts like this that make the larger media think gaming is a completely ludicrous hobby for mature adults

    i honestly want to ask the people in PR what the fuck is going through their minds

    where do they LEARN this crap? is there a special training conference held inside their assholes every year?

    RxI0N.png
    Registered just for the Mass Effect threads | Steam: click ^^^ | Origin: curlyhairedboy
  • Options
    Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    And I will definitely disagree that "any publicity is good publicity". I'm not extremely sensitive to this sort of stunt, but before Tube made the thread, there was a genuine likelihood of me getting the next Dead Island; afterwards, not a chance. If people are looking at this "stunt" and going "I'm not touching that crap", then this is definitely something pretty awful and stupid and won't be garnering more sales for the game, just venom for the company.

  • Options
    reVersereVerse Attack and Dethrone God Registered User regular
    i honestly want to ask the people in PR what the fuck is going through their minds

    The people in marketing.

  • Options
    milskimilski Poyo! Registered User regular
    Skull2185 wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    Skull2185 wrote: »
    Reading more of the replies in this thread, the increased backlash makes a bit more sense to me. I hadn't really thought it all the way through, I suppose. It isn't enough to keep me from purchasing the game though. I enjoyed the first one, and look forward to picking up the new one.

    Its like Elvenshae posted, their intent was to make a zombie Venus de Milo. Only, they royally fucked up...

    I've seen a lot of people suggesting we're "playing right into their hands" or whatever. "Any publicity is good publicity" isn't necessarily a thing these days, unless you're talking about hits on a webpage. I'm sure these guys will sell some more CE's than they would've otherwise, but I have a feeling the overall sales are going to be below what's expected because of how appalling this is.

    I'm guessing that the statue will never actually ship with the CE's. Deep Silver or whoever will issue an apology, and add something else to bundle. Then hope that in 3-4 months when the game launches, people will have forgotten/forgiven the gaffe and still pick up the game.

    That would be the smart move, anyway...

    I wonder if they were honestly trying to cash in on the "airplane crash" gimmick; namely, the trend that if an airline has a well publicized crash, their sales rapidly drop off for a while, but experience a small surge in popularity after a period of time between when people forget about the specifics of the crash but still remember the name of that specific airline.

    It'd still be a terrible marketing decision, but it might almost be clever in a really stupid and terrible way if their intent was just to get a lot of press on their game now in hopes that all people remember on launch is that the game exists.

    I ate an engineer
  • Options
    TubeTube Registered User admin
    reVerse wrote: »
    i honestly want to ask the people in PR what the fuck is going through their minds

    The people in marketing.

    Yeah, as someone who technically works in PR I guarantee you that their PR department is going out of their minds.

  • Options
    Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    it's stunts like this that make the larger media think gaming is a completely ludicrous hobby for mature adults

    i honestly want to ask the people in PR what the fuck is going through their minds

    where do they LEARN this crap? is there a special training conference held inside their assholes every year?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zUWXKThqHw

    Basically this, because the game industry still hasn't figured out which people to leave in charge and which ones to leave chained to a desk sorting applications.

  • Options
    FawstFawst The road to awe.Registered User regular
    Are people personally offended by this or are they saying it's stupid because they know that the hive mind will deem it so? I honestly couldn't care less about this. I know it's stupid and tasteless, but I'm not bothered by it. Plenty of stupid and tasteless things exist that don't bother me in the slightest. Are males offended because of what it says about males in general that something like this was created from a male-dominated industry? Would men even bat an eye if it was a male statue? Would WOMEN? What do the answers to those questions say about people in general?

  • Options
    TheSonicRetardTheSonicRetard Registered User regular
    I'm just tired of trying to defend the industry I love when it's the industry that spews out shit like this.

    Take that how you will.

    The industry isn't homogenous. You shouldn't hold one segment of the industry responsible for the actions of another.

    "Well, see, only some of the people in the industry are cool with the idea of making a statue of a scantily clad brutalized woman's torso..." doesn't hold a lot of water when you're discussing videogame politics.

    Discussion of "video game politics" with that level of generalization really don't have much to say. Whatever point you're trying to make about the industry holds more weight when you direct it at those responsible.

    It's a large industry.

  • Options
    vsovevsove ....also yes. Registered User regular
    Fawst wrote: »
    Are people personally offended by this or are they saying it's stupid because they know that the hive mind will deem it so? I honestly couldn't care less about this. I know it's stupid and tasteless, but I'm not bothered by it. Plenty of stupid and tasteless things exist that don't bother me in the slightest. Are males offended because of what it says about males in general that something like this was created from a male-dominated industry? Would men even bat an eye if it was a male statue? Would WOMEN? What do the answers to those questions say about people in general?

    Yes, I'm genuinely offended by it. It makes me feel incredibly uneasy.

    If it were a man it would be bad but not as bad because sexualized violence against men is nowhere near the same problem as sexualized violence against women.

    I think the answers to those questions say that I'm someone who's tired of this kind of bullshit and feels like we need to push back against this kind of misogynistic bullshit.

    WATCH THIS SPACE.
  • Options
    Magic PinkMagic Pink Tur-Boner-Fed Registered User regular
    Dead Island was my game of the year. I fucking loved it and I was super dooper looking forward to Riptide.

    But now I wouldn't even accept it as a gift and I'll be hard pressed to even play the older game ever again. This is just dumbfoundingly offensive to literally everybody.

  • Options
    PreciousBodilyFluidsPreciousBodilyFluids Registered User regular
    I can't really picture the sort of person who would be comfortable having something like that displayed in their household.

  • Options
    vsovevsove ....also yes. Registered User regular
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    Dead Island was my game of the year. I fucking loved it and I was super dooper looking forward to Riptide.

    But now I wouldn't even accept it as a gift and I'll be hard pressed to even play the older game ever again. This is just dumbfoundingly offensive to literally everybody.

    Yeah. Honestly, I enjoyed Dead Island. It was buggy, sure, and felt unfinished, but I had a lot of fun with the open world and the melee combat. I was really looking forward to what they'd do with a sequel where they could refine the stuff that worked and drop the stuff that didn't.

    I was going to buy Riptide! Now? I won't. That simple.

    WATCH THIS SPACE.
  • Options
    HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    edited January 2013
    Fawst wrote: »
    Are people personally offended by this or are they saying it's stupid because they know that the hive mind will deem it so? I honestly couldn't care less about this. I know it's stupid and tasteless, but I'm not bothered by it. Plenty of stupid and tasteless things exist that don't bother me in the slightest. Are males offended because of what it says about males in general that something like this was created from a male-dominated industry? Would men even bat an eye if it was a male statue? Would WOMEN? What do the answers to those questions say about people in general?

    You're suggesting that empathy and understanding to/of others' sensitivities are a negative?

    Henroid on
  • Options
    TubeTube Registered User admin
    Fawst wrote: »
    Are people personally offended by this or are they saying it's stupid because they know that the hive mind will deem it so?

    You're an idiot.

    and to the person who reported a previous post saying "your admin badge doesn't excuse flaming", my admin badge explicitly excuses flaming.

  • Options
    TheSonicRetardTheSonicRetard Registered User regular
    Fawst wrote: »
    Are people personally offended by this or are they saying it's stupid because they know that the hive mind will deem it so? I honestly couldn't care less about this. I know it's stupid and tasteless, but I'm not bothered by it. Plenty of stupid and tasteless things exist that don't bother me in the slightest. Are males offended because of what it says about males in general that something like this was created from a male-dominated industry? Would men even bat an eye if it was a male statue? Would WOMEN? What do the answers to those questions say about people in general?

    I find the gore disgusting, and the use of perfect tits eye-rollingly typical. But, beyond that, I also find it to be terrible box art. Do you think that looks good? Would you want that on your shelf? Like, ignoring all the non-PC stuff about it, who wants their game wrapped in that? Is the point of your high end, high dollar packaging supposed to be embarrassment to the point where, if I were even picking this up in the first place, I'd gladly buy the regular verson over the one packed with oodles of extra content*?

    *I assume it comes with extra content

  • Options
    Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    edited January 2013
    Henroid wrote: »
    Fawst wrote: »
    Are people personally offended by this or are they saying it's stupid because they know that the hive mind will deem it so? I honestly couldn't care less about this. I know it's stupid and tasteless, but I'm not bothered by it. Plenty of stupid and tasteless things exist that don't bother me in the slightest. Are males offended because of what it says about males in general that something like this was created from a male-dominated industry? Would men even bat an eye if it was a male statue? Would WOMEN? What do the answers to those questions say about people in general?

    You're suggesting that empathy and understanding to/of others' sensitivities are a negative?

    Honestly, it's one thing to have a bunch of bikini-clad zombies running around in a resort area, and entirely another matter to have a butchered female torso statue. One is in context, the other is just an obscene stunt from dumb people. It's the sort of thing where, if I walked into a special effects shop where the guys have displays of the horrible things they've made for movies because it's their job to scare people, I would look at that statue and immediately have second thoughts about dealing with them. Having a "memento" of a game in the form of a butchered torso is several kinds of sick, weird, and disturbed; it's like this whole thing was cooked up by that weird kid you knew in high school who was obsessed with blood, always dressed in black, and never could really figure out why people thought he was creepy and weird when he did or said creepy, weird things.
    Tube wrote: »
    and to the person who reported a previous post saying "your admin badge doesn't excuse flaming", my admin badge explicitly excuses flaming.
    I thought it was active encouragement to do so?

    Ninja Snarl P on
  • Options
    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited January 2013
    I have trouble deciding if this is a problem with the Industry as a whole (as the previous Dead Island idiot bullshit was), or a problem with marketing being so fucking lazy and misogynist that they can't think beyond "sexualizing women sells!"

    I think probably both, because someone approved this fucking mess.

    Fencingsax on
  • Options
    I needed anime to post.I needed anime to post. boom Registered User regular
    Fawst wrote: »
    Would men even bat an eye if it was a male statue?

    No, because it is impossible to bat an eye at things that will never exist.

    liEt3nH.png
  • Options
    PreciousBodilyFluidsPreciousBodilyFluids Registered User regular
    Fawst wrote: »
    Are people personally offended by this or are they saying it's stupid because they know that the hive mind will deem it so?

    Haha yeah I only pretend to care because of internet peer pressure, you got me

    I guess it was pretty clear to you that there was no real merit to the arguments concerning misogyny and the larger complaints about how this is not an isolated incident but sadly representative for the ass-backward views within the gaming industry/community regarding the portrayal and objectification of women.

  • Options
    One Thousand CablesOne Thousand Cables An absence of thought Registered User regular
    After all this my money won't be going within a country mile of the companies involved, even if it is ultimately the publisher's fault. It kind of astounds me that this statue actually became a thing--that nobody, at any point of the production of it, stood back and said, "Hey, this is fucked up, we shouldn't do this."

  • Options
    Magic PinkMagic Pink Tur-Boner-Fed Registered User regular
    I can't really picture the sort of person who would be comfortable having something like that displayed in their household.

    Charles-mansonbookingphoto.jpg

  • Options
    Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    Condemning the entire game industry for this little gem makes no more sense than condemning everybody in the company for what the PR guys cooked up. Do people in the the game industry put out some pretty impressively stupid shit? Yes. Is that every person in the game industry? No.

    Not treating this thing as a witch hunt is important. A rational reaction is basically boycotting the developer; an irrational reaction is saying the whole game industry is filled with misogynist assholes and we need to burn the lot of them at the stake or whatever. I wish I could say I wouldn't be happy with the people responsible for creating this losing their jobs, but I'm not that good a person; I don't, however, necessarily extend that to the other people in the company who could very well be looking at this while getting pissed off because of how stupid something they had nothing to do with will make them look for just being at the company when it happened.

  • Options
    baudattitudebaudattitude Registered User regular
    Normally, when I see a person or organization getting dog piled like this, I can summon up at least a little sympathy for the pilee, but this is just terrible.

This discussion has been closed.