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[Camelot Unchained] CSE back in the office

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Posts

  • WitchdrWitchdr Registered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    RvR was amazing in DAOC (kobold shadowblade represent) because there was nothing to compare it to. It was shit game design compared to where we are now, though.

    I'd love to hear why you think it is a bad design.

    "Look, all I know is that this cord was plugged into my house and your house was glowing like the freakin' sun. So, I put two and two together there and decided that you're pissing me off." -Carl Brutananadilewski

    In regards to the advocates of his former empire: “I was going to have them all executed… the Royal Advocate talked me out of it.” -Shadowthrone (Emperor Kellanved)

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  • urahonkyurahonky Registered User regular
    Please enlighten us. I mean the servers for Dark Age are still up and running and people are still doing RvR because it's fun...

  • urahonkyurahonky Registered User regular
    We also have games to compare it to and STILL nothing compares to it. How many games have decent RvR that are available right now? None. Unless you count EVE (which I guess would count).

  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    The Everquest servers are still up and running too. I'd say, "And that's obviously a dated, bad game too" but there'd be someone flooding in here to throw a shit fit.

    We have a strong taste for nostalgia, as well as a huge blind spot for our own interests.

    I figure, "DAOC is a pretty old game and incredibly dated as gameplay goes" is a self evident statement to anyone who isn't going to willfully ignore the truth of it.

    What is this I don't even.
  • urahonkyurahonky Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    Oh sure gameplay is definitely dated. That is incredibly apparent when you go from WOW/TOR to DAoC, but that doesn't make the design of the game bad.

    urahonky on
  • ironzergironzerg Registered User regular
    I'll stop poking. We'll just keep watching the Kickstarter and see where it goes.

  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    Heh, the gameplay is outdated in 2013 for a game that's that old does not equate to "the game was bad and you only thought it was good before because nostalgia." Some aspects of the gameplay are definitely outdated, much like the combat mechanics in say WoW are outdated compared what newer games are trying to bring to the table.

    The thing people liked about DAoC was the way they designed a 3 faction RvR system with objectives that promoted players fighting the way the designers wanted them to, and also the non mirrored classes, which lends itself to one faction not getting more players merely because classes are the same and the aesthetic is the only choice. It amazes me that more games have not stood by this and instead went for mirrored classes just for the sake of easier balance.

    Joshmvii on
  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    I think the class balance is one of the worst features in DAOC, actually.

    What is this I don't even.
  • WitchdrWitchdr Registered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    I think the class balance is one of the worst features in DAOC, actually.

    I agree, they never got balance down. But WoW still has balance issues and they have 1/3 the classes. I did at least enjoy the diversity of the realms in DAOC and as long as the devs stay active in a game a class will never stay OP or broken for long.

    I always find it funny how each realm views the other when it comes to power (minus the fact that everyone, including the mids, admits that stungard was OP at the time of no Diminished returns)

    That said I still would like to hear what you didn't like about the RvR system. I'm not trying to start a fight, I want to know what problems you saw with it.

    "Look, all I know is that this cord was plugged into my house and your house was glowing like the freakin' sun. So, I put two and two together there and decided that you're pissing me off." -Carl Brutananadilewski

    In regards to the advocates of his former empire: “I was going to have them all executed… the Royal Advocate talked me out of it.” -Shadowthrone (Emperor Kellanved)

    Handles: LoL-Emerging, BF4/Hardline-Whiskeyjack227, Steam-Fragglerock, HOTS/Blizzard-Whiskeyjack#1333, Life-Jason
  • ironzergironzerg Registered User regular
    I'm not arguing that DAOC was a badnotfun game, or the devs had it wrong. I'm just asking the question of, beyond pioneering a 3-way realm battlefield, what are the developers bringing to the table in Camelot Unchained that should give me any confidence that they'll be able to actually produce a functional MMO?

    Ask that question to anyone about Camelot Unchained, and all you get is people waxing romantically about how much fun DAOC was.

  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    Oh, just a few things off the top of my head, without seriously trying to have a point by point debate on this:

    Class balance
    Healers and the roles of support classes (not just buffbots, though buffbots go without saying as an incredibly stupid idea)
    Prevalence of stuns (I agree with what was, at one point, a Blizzard design adage: that removing control from the player is the least enjoyable thing)
    Stealth mechanics rather than cover and movement mechanics
    Long time investments rather than more consumable content
    The inclusion of progression systems at all, really (I don't think the future of pvp includes gear grinds or levels that in any way progress, rather than opening laterally or not at all)

    DAOC was maybe the ultimate embodiment of how to use MMORPG tropes well, but the end proof is still that the old MMORPG systems just aren't good systems for building a pvp game. Successful pvping is still often just successful train targeting and stun locking, with effective selection of targets and placement of stealthers.

    What is this I don't even.
    arakis99
  • StupidStupid Newcastle, NSWRegistered User regular
    edited April 2013
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    I think the class balance is one of the worst features in DAOC, actually.
    People who say this never played on Gaheris, the cross-faction PvE server. When you have the option to group with ANY class from ANY realm, and have the opportunity to mix-and-match... well, its amazing how well represented _every_ class was. Outside of a few outliers, pretty much in any particular combat role, there were good arguments for every class. The (very few) class imbalances that did exist -- and there are/were some! just not as many as you think -- were created by the later-year's development team(s) that started focusing more on PvE balance and took their eyes off the virtual ball of a fun, well-designed RvR experience. ToA was the turning point for design decisions. The whole game started heading in the PvE direction after that.
    ironzerg wrote: »
    I'm not arguing that DAOC was a badnotfun game, or the devs had it wrong. I'm just asking the question of, beyond pioneering a 3-way realm battlefield, what are the developers bringing to the table in Camelot Unchained that should give me any confidence that they'll be able to actually produce a functional MMO?
    (For what it's worth, I was a phase 1, beta 1 tester for DAoC one year before it was released, I have an NPC in the game named after me, and if you have an original box of the game, my name is credited in the game manual. I actively played until 2007 and was a class Team Lead three times. I played a LOT of DAoC. I'm not sure I remember my account name or password, but I think I might still have an active comp'ed account in there.)

    It was more than just a simple three-way battlefield. If you took any of the current MMOs out there and just created a three-way battle it wouldn't work. The reason it worked in DAoC is because it was designed, from the ground up, to be a three-way winner-take-all fight!

    There was no second place. It wasn't about points, or scores or anything that could get you a ranking. There was no time limit and the game never ended. You either had relics (and got a gameplay bonus) or you did not (and did not). The leading team was forced into a less-advantageous position, having to defend more, less-fortified locations that were further away from their home spawn. Meanwhile, the losing team either had no reward to give, or if they did, it was far far easier for them to defend a single location very close to their own spawnpoint. Thus, it became -easier- to go after the winners than the losers. There really was no incentive to attack anyone but the leaders. Ganging up on the losers really didn't gain you much (if anything) and it was going to be a bloody, brutal fight. Players will ALWAYS take the path of least resistance. The RvR design meant that the weaker teams almost always had incentive to support each other against the strongest team (or at least a disincentive to attack each other).

    Despite the claims of imbalance, asymetric class distribution really made each realm have a very different "feel". This really encouraged the feeling of "us vs them". With over 40 different classes in the game (at the end), it was really hard to remember what every class did. You knew what your realm's classes were, but the other realms were just an archetype to most players. For example, take the healing classes: An Albion Cleric would heal and do direct damage; A Hibernan Bard did healing and chants; a Midgard Healer did Healing a stuns. This asymetry was mirrored in every single class. Same archetype, but three compeltely different styles of play.

    The lack of server transfers and cross-realm play was annoying to some people ("But I only get to play in 1/3 of the game!") but it really made people feel like their realm was their home and the other two realms were the bad guys. One thing you will often hear old DAoC players wax eloquently about is "realm pride".

    Limiting specific abilities to one or two classes helped with overall diversity. A trap I think a lot of game devs fall into these days is allowing every class to have a little of everything. If your class has a super weak ability, when you gather up a zerg and that ability gets used 50+ times in less than 1 second, it adds up to an instagib, no matter how meaningless it when used solo.

    The "specialization" system really forced the players into limiting themselves to one or two specific things that they were AWESOME at. If you spec'ed at AE DPS, you would be awful at single target . If you spec'ed for range, you were dead in melee. If you spec'ed for CC, you could lock down an entire enemy group, but you couldnt kill any of them....

    One thing that DAoC did that has NO PLACE in today's MMO market is long-duration stuns and hard interrupts. Sadly, these were exactly the things that made their combat system so strategic.

    Finally, something that makes me excited about Camelot Unchained that was not part of DAoC is a dedicated crafter class. I've always loved crafting and for the first few months after DAoC's release I was "the" crafter on Hib/Perci. Umhair was (and still is actually) a level 5 grandmaster armorcrafter that did nothing but sit in town and make armor for players. (This was at a time when crafted armor was not the best in the game, but it was definitely the easiest to get.) Players would literally line up ten deep at the forge in Tír na nÓg to buy armor from me.

    Stupid on

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    urahonkyAxenBeefers
  • UrsaUrsa Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    Quite a good update on the Kickstarter today. New possible race working title "St'rm".. bit of a pronunciation poser. This project has got me quite excited as an old time DAoC'er. Hopefully we can see a bit more class/race ideas and model animations as I think this is what will get more people interested and backing it.

    New model animation is towards the end of the vid.

    Sterica on
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    urahonky
  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    Hey, another Perci Hib! Yay! Though I joined that server late, was Guin Alb most of the time.

    @Stupid really does have it right. It was more than just having a three way fight but how the fight worked. Outside the relics there was also Darkness Falls. A dungeon only available for the realm who holds the most keeps. This did two things. First a reason to take keeps for more than relic fights and once people got Darkness Falls the realm would lose half the fighters on the field as they went to harvest drops. Also the fights in the dungeon were amazing. Stealthers would fade away when you lost the dungeon and then spring ambushes on the farmers. I would usually duo or trio with some friends and we knew all the nooks and crannies. The goal was to hold out and kill as many of them as possible before the zerg found you.

    The success of RvR in DAoC was complex and no game has really recreated it.

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  • urahonkyurahonky Registered User regular
    Ah, yes, DF. It was SO crazy when you were waiting outside the entrance for your realm to capture the relic to unlock it... As soon as you saw that you got it, you ran in and attacked every motherfucker that was inside.

    Good times.

    And I was Bors, Midgard. So much better than those pansy elves and the boring albs. ;)

  • AxenAxen My avatar is Excalibur. Yes, the sword.Registered User regular
    @Stupid has the right of it. I've never really thought about why it worked so well in DAoC before.

    The reason the three sides were fighting was for those fancy relics and later for DF as well. Back when I played there wasn't any sort of point system, nothing keeping track of your kills, nothing to say how badass your side was (not sure if that changed after I left). All there was was the Relics. You wanted them, other people had them, and the game gave you the tools to take them for your own side. There was very little reason to attack a weaker faction, aside from "For Shits & Giggles".

    The other games that touted having three-way PvP dropped the ball on that part.

    There were other little things going on that contributed making it work so well, but IMHO the Relics were a key part. That and not having an epeen yardstick in game too (though this may have changed, it has been awhile since I played).

    A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
  • urahonkyurahonky Registered User regular
    You know what's funny? Dark Age seemed to have some sort of realm camaraderie going on too. As a long time Midgard player, even now, when people mentioned they played but they were Alb or Hib I get this feeling of... Not really hatred or anything but more of a "disappointed mother" feeling.

    I hope this game brings that back out of me. WoW started that way... But now everything is basically the same that it doesn't really matter if you were Horde or Alliance.

  • StupidStupid Newcastle, NSWRegistered User regular
    urahonky wrote: »
    You know what's funny? Dark Age seemed to have some sort of realm camaraderie going on too. As a long time Midgard player, even now, when people mentioned they played but they were Alb or Hib I get this feeling of... Not really hatred or anything but more of a "disappointed mother" feeling.

    That's one of the things that made RvR work so well. Players really had a "realm-identity". Over time this faded, partly as we became more familiar with the game and all of its intricacies and partly due to server mergers that allowed cross-realming. I honestly think the asymetric class design played a large role in keeping each realm feeling unique. It's a lot more work for the designers, but well worth it IMHO.


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    urahonky
  • UrsaUrsa Registered User regular
    Thought I'd pipe in with a new update on the crafting system from a few days ago just in case anyones not seen it. It does look really interesting. I'm a little worried about building sprawl but other than that, placing my our own keeps where my guild wants? Pretty sweet. Placing fortifications when you hear about a local incoming? Yea I'm in for that. Tearing down Arthurian Mile gates instead of just gate camping? Hell yes.

    The mining method seems interesting as well, hopefully gets more of the community feel going. I don't know about you but in a short time since returning to classic DAoC on Uthgard I've put almost as many people on /friend as a few years in the latter days of WoW. Not so much enforced grouping but benefit through grouping is something which seems to have been lost beyond silently ploughing through content as quickly as possible.

    We're up to $1.3 mil on the kickstarter with 9 days to go. All the folks on the comments are expecting a surge for the end perhaps once classes and more combat details are released. I'm pretty sure at this stage of pre-dev they're not going to have the depth that people may be looking for regarding skills etc. Mark Jacobs has said the next few updates will be focussed on this + lore. I really hope enough people can see some potential enough to back even for the lower tiers. I need a proper RvR game!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPQh2Bm3NbE

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    urahonky
  • urahonkyurahonky Registered User regular
    Yeah I don't think it'll get funded. I hope I'm wrong but 700K is a lot for the last few days. I wish I could offer more than $50 but that's all I've got to spare right now.

  • UrsaUrsa Registered User regular
    I don't know, there will certainly be a surge of some sort towards the ending date. The amount of people on Uthgard who are "seeing how it goes" or will pledge "If it looks like finding" (not sure on the logic of that one :p) or waiting to see how much they can pledge closer to the day. I very much accept this could just be false hope though.

    If I could live in a dream world I'd be backing a project with full PvE the same as DAoC however this is the closest I think I'm going to get. Publishers seem to be moving away from the subscription model towards FTP with cash shops. Everything's been simplified to the point where the root of the genre I used to love is reduced to a watered down instance based item gathering magpie festival.

    I guess if this doesn't fund it just proves I'm living in nostalgia land and should just give up on my hopes and become a cynical old bear who needs to leave MMOs to the next generation.

    Anyway grumble over. I'll go back to hibernation!

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    urahonky
  • urahonkyurahonky Registered User regular
    If I could live in a dream world I'd be backing a project with full PvE the same as DAoC however this is the closest I think I'm going to get. Publishers seem to be moving away from the subscription model towards FTP with cash shops. Everything's been simplified to the point where the root of the genre I used to love is reduced to a watered down instance based item gathering magpie festival.

    Truer words have never been spoken.

  • ironzergironzerg Registered User regular
    I know they've spoken and are very strongly oppossed to it, but I think it's a lot to take in with no PvE element attached. I think they have a lot of really cool concepts, and even if it's RvR with a tacked on PvE game, they should consider it if and when they go back to the drawing board.

    But yeah, I'm not sure where a "late surge" of $700k is going to come from, considering those most eager generally throw into the Kickstarter pretty early, and things tail off from there. Of course, Mike or Jerry could put up a single post this afternoon saying how Camelot Unchained "is going to be the best game ever!", and they'd be at like $10 million before dinner.

  • DragantDragant BostonRegistered User regular
    edited April 2013
    No PvE means..it will cost considerably less to make and take less time to make as well. They only have to balance for RvR and they can focus on one thing.. making RvR awesome. Instead of trying to cater to every type of mmorpg player..like every other mmorpg today is trying to do, and where does that get them? They all pretty much crash and burn because they cant keep both PvErs and PvPrs happy.

    This is an amazing idea and I for one hope it comes to be. I can guarantee everyone that it will be a huge hit, even tho we dont have the numbers right now. How many people, that walk into gaming stores really know what kickstarter is anyways? Hell, I only heard about this kickstarter from a friends husband.

    Also, we are at about 1.34m right now. I believe we will be over 1.5m by the time the "late surge" hits.

    Edit: In the sense of crafting tho, you still mine, chop wood, kill critters ect to gain materials... so, there is that for pve.

    Dragant on
  • UrsaUrsa Registered User regular
    Firstly - Cash update. We've hit $1.4 mill. 1 week to go!

    MJ has just put out a lore update. I think it needs some refining myself - three triplets thing is a little bit twee. Along with them diverging so wildly due to being pretty into the whole viking thing.. To be honest if I'm going viking I'd prefer to be following an actual Viking bad ass rather than a deluded brother driven mad by a magic sword (I guess Camelot has more claim to the magic sword transformation myth but you know people are going to bring up Frostmourne..).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Y-g8jxCZgOI

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  • Lucky CynicLucky Cynic Registered User regular
    Man, I just don't get it how Skullgirls can get $800,000 and hit all sorts of stretch goals, and this lost steam after just a week. Don't get me wrong, Skullgirls is an awesome indie game, but come on, this is a whole nother game and their kickstarter was for DLC...

    Look guys, if you cannot chip in anymore, please share and post links.

  • RoeRoe Always to the East Registered User regular
    edited April 2013
    Man, I just don't get it how Skullgirls can get $800,000 and hit all sorts of stretch goals, and this lost steam after just a week. Don't get me wrong, Skullgirls is an awesome indie game, but come on, this is a whole nother game and their kickstarter was for DLC...

    Look guys, if you cannot chip in anymore, please share and post links.

    No posting of kickstarter links are allowed. This thread had one in the first post when it arrived, it just was edited.

    Roe on
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  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    Man, I just don't get it how Skullgirls can get $800,000 and hit all sorts of stretch goals, and this lost steam after just a week. Don't get me wrong, Skullgirls is an awesome indie game, but come on, this is a whole nother game and their kickstarter was for DLC...

    Look guys, if you cannot chip in anymore, please share and post links.

    There's a huge difference in feasability there. There is a very real chance that Camelot Unchained will simply never happen, or will happen so barely as to have been a waste of everyone's time.

    Skullgirls was closer to completion. This game is just starting.

    Skullgirls had a lower threshold to fund. This is universally a better way to get more donations. People are way more likely to donate when they're confident funding will happen.

    Skullgirls was new and neat. This is a niche game targeted at people who want a game that doesn't seem prepared to compete as well in the market.

    There's a pretty wide variety of reasons for it, I guess.

    What is this I don't even.
  • Lucky CynicLucky Cynic Registered User regular
    Roe wrote: »
    No posting of kickstarter links are allowed. This thread had one in the first post when it arrived, it just was edited.

    I didn't mean here. I meant on FB and such.

    The reason I brought up SG is because it is so polarizing how successful their campaign was vs. Camelot Unchained which while being very bare, has a pretty impressive scope without being overly ambitious. An example of being overly ambitious was WAR or perhaps even GW2. GW2 is excellent in many regards, but I hate to say it, the battlefield really doesn't change- DAoC had verrry different battlegrounds and keeps depending on how they were upgraded and handled.

    I remember Level 10 keeps being sieged literally for days across the weekend. Some of the most hotly contested keep battles though were newly turned over to an enemy realm while everyone was still there and having a very minimal Level 1 keep with a couple hundred folks running around inside and out- in those battles, the encampments and NPCs literally meant dust and it was up to players and managing bottlenecks or quite literally the tide of battle.

  • PMAversPMAvers Registered User regular
    You know, I *really* like the ideas in that Stealth update they posted tonight.

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  • MadpandaMadpanda suburbs west of chicagoRegistered User regular
    Holy crap that stealth update sounds cool. It doesn't show up on the main KS page so you have to click updates to see it.

    I'd love to play a scouting class that actually gets rewarded for doing such. But I realize that's kind of hard to implement, I mean I guess they could put in a tagging system like battlefield has.

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    Steam/PSN/XBL/Minecraft / LoL / - Benevicious | WoW - Duckwood - Rajhek
  • RoeRoe Always to the East Registered User regular
    I just updated my pledge to $50. I am really hoping this game is made because it shows a lot more potential then when I made my first pledge.

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  • urahonkyurahonky Registered User regular
    Yeah I started at $50........ Might have to raise it.

  • StericaSterica Yes Registered User, Moderator mod
    Deleted one KS link. Do not post KS links.

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  • RoeRoe Always to the East Registered User regular
    I just wanted to tell people how pledging works, since I just found out myself.

    If they do not hit the goal, CSE gets no money and the game doesn't get made.

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  • urahonkyurahonky Registered User regular
    Yep, kinda sad, really.

  • urahonkyurahonky Registered User regular
    Also I just watched that building video... Holy shit!

  • Lucky CynicLucky Cynic Registered User regular
    I have always liked the unique designs of character races in DAoC and just what Marc Jacobs and his team come up with. Scrolling down a bit are concepts for a very unique race called the St'rm. Fucking brilliant design.

    http://www.zbrushcentral.com/showthread.php?177279-Camelot-Unchained-characters

  • DarkewolfeDarkewolfe Registered User regular
    They'll make funding. I don't remember the statistics, but the bulk of funding for a kickstarter always comes in from the last few days.

    What is this I don't even.
  • eelektrikeelektrik Southern CaliforniaRegistered User regular
    Darkewolfe wrote: »
    They'll make funding. I don't remember the statistics, but the bulk of funding for a kickstarter always comes in from the last few days.

    Really? Most of the kickstarters I have watched seemed like they got the largest chunk of funding in the first 24 hours.

    (She/Her)
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