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Dungeons and Dragons: The Thread of Vile Decades

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    MeldingMelding Registered User regular
    or, you could just say your guy knows about astronomy, cause it says so in his background and the DM will be like "that's a neat point. Cool" and if it ever comes up probably give you a bonus to the check.

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    KalnaurKalnaur I See Rain . . . Centralia, WARegistered User regular
    Dubh wrote: »
    Melding wrote: »
    i think the resurrect ritual is a bit more than a level 0 spell.

    oh you probably mean cantrips.

    stuff like resurrect is where it's more elegant

    like, hey, here's some useful spells that should take ten minutes to cast

    but then you get to stuff like a hovering disk, and making that have a longer cast time is just missing out on all sorts of shenanigans

    By the end they had some really good rituals, even some that could be cast from a scroll in battle. Those are damn spiffy.

    I make art things! deviantART: Kalnaur ::: Origin: Kalnaur ::: UPlay: Kalnaur
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    DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) What's up, bootlickers?Registered User regular
    Kalnaur wrote: »
    Moriveth wrote: »
    Though the elite/boss enemies have way too much HP. At least they did when I played.

    Yeah, they fixed that.
    Dubh wrote: »
    There's way more flexible systems than 4e

    If you don't like the options you're provided, it's tough titties
    Unless you want to spend the time fitting custom content in

    Which options do you mean? I've found it rather expansive.

    Each class is built as an archetype. If you find one close to what you want, but it doesn't quite do the thing you want it to do? Then it's sorta discouraging.

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    KalnaurKalnaur I See Rain . . . Centralia, WARegistered User regular
    Melding wrote: »
    or, you could just say your guy knows about astronomy, cause it says so in his background and the DM will be like "that's a neat point. Cool" and if it ever comes up probably give you a bonus to the check.

    That's the way I do it.

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    MeldingMelding Registered User regular
    Kalnaur wrote: »
    Melding wrote: »
    or, you could just say your guy knows about astronomy, cause it says so in his background and the DM will be like "that's a neat point. Cool" and if it ever comes up probably give you a bonus to the check.

    That's the way I do it.

    it's the way the designers intended. "So your character is the town smith and can make swords? rad, go with it"

    But i guess some people like mechanical representation of stuff like that. and i get that. I get like that sometimes too, but not enough.

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    DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) What's up, bootlickers?Registered User regular
    Melding wrote: »
    or, you could just say your guy knows about astronomy, cause it says so in his background and the DM will be like "that's a neat point. Cool" and if it ever comes up probably give you a bonus to the check.

    it's not a really substantial solution

    try to put yourself in the position of a player that wants to make it his character's thing
    shoving it aside like that isn't the greatest feeling

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    Cilla BlackCilla Black Priscilla!!! Registered User regular
    Melding wrote: »
    or, you could just say your guy knows about astronomy, cause it says so in his background and the DM will be like "that's a neat point. Cool" and if it ever comes up probably give you a bonus to the check.

    And while true, that you can do this isn't the same as a game system having rules and tools which allow you to integrate some character fluff like that into the gameplay. A dungeon master can change and permit whatever they want, but the onus shouldn't be entirely on them or the player to create a solid roleplaying structure.

    But that's just how D&D is and kinda has always been. Diff'ren strokes.

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    MeldingMelding Registered User regular
    i don't think having to spend resources so you're actively less effective in other areas is that good of a way to do it, so you know, different strokes for different folks.

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    KalnaurKalnaur I See Rain . . . Centralia, WARegistered User regular
    Dubh wrote: »
    Kalnaur wrote: »
    Moriveth wrote: »
    Though the elite/boss enemies have way too much HP. At least they did when I played.

    Yeah, they fixed that.
    Dubh wrote: »
    There's way more flexible systems than 4e

    If you don't like the options you're provided, it's tough titties
    Unless you want to spend the time fitting custom content in

    Which options do you mean? I've found it rather expansive.

    Each class is built as an archetype. If you find one close to what you want, but it doesn't quite do the thing you want it to do? Then it's sorta discouraging.

    I think different class "builds" and the powers that went along with them were helping with that, before they killed 4th ed development. With the volume of classes though, I'm not sure how one could run out of ones to play.

    I should preface that though, I start any character creation by selecting race and class that gel, and then go into stats and whatnot. I build a character my mechanics first, and always have, and then flesh out the character afterwards. So I am utterly lost if the game in question has no good mechanical hook to start me out with. Perhaps that's why 4th works so well for me. It has a specific mechanical base that allows for opening of character as I go on adding bits to it, and by the time I'm done, there's a dude with a story and a use.

    I make art things! deviantART: Kalnaur ::: Origin: Kalnaur ::: UPlay: Kalnaur
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    MeldingMelding Registered User regular
    Kalnaur, we are shockingly alike in many respects.

    Are..are you secretly me?

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    Cilla BlackCilla Black Priscilla!!! Registered User regular
    It usually ended up working out for my old group because instead of roleplaying during or after combat we'd get sidetracked talking about anything and everything else under the sun. D&D was just as much an excuse for like 5 or 6 people to sit down for 8 hours and have conversations as it was the reason we were there.

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    DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) What's up, bootlickers?Registered User regular
    Kalnaur wrote: »
    Dubh wrote: »
    Kalnaur wrote: »
    Moriveth wrote: »
    Though the elite/boss enemies have way too much HP. At least they did when I played.

    Yeah, they fixed that.
    Dubh wrote: »
    There's way more flexible systems than 4e

    If you don't like the options you're provided, it's tough titties
    Unless you want to spend the time fitting custom content in

    Which options do you mean? I've found it rather expansive.

    Each class is built as an archetype. If you find one close to what you want, but it doesn't quite do the thing you want it to do? Then it's sorta discouraging.

    I think different class "builds" and the powers that went along with them were helping with that, before they killed 4th ed development. With the volume of classes though, I'm not sure how one could run out of ones to play.

    I should preface that though, I start any character creation by selecting race and class that gel, and then go into stats and whatnot. I build a character my mechanics first, and always have, and then flesh out the character afterwards. So I am utterly lost if the game in question has no good mechanical hook to start me out with. Perhaps that's why 4th works so well for me. It has a specific mechanical base that allows for opening of character as I go on adding bits to it, and by the time I'm done, there's a dude with a story and a use.

    I'd rather not have to do a "build" to get the sorta character I want

    I get that a bunch of you get everything you need from 4e's system

    but when you have to come up with workarounds to do certain things

    it demonstrates that it doesn't do everything well


    thanks to certain forumers (coughcoughDE?ADcoughcough) I'm sorta tired a rigid character structure you see in class based game
    sometimes I want to get my tactical rocks off
    but these days, if I can get a table thing going then I'm gonna make damn sure that game doesn't revolve around it

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    animal companionanimal companion xenomortis Registered User regular
    I will often get my DM ideas from craft stores

    I once went to a Michael's to browse stuff, and I found a package of half-inch plastic babies. They were the perfect size for minis on a grid.

    assorted_miniature_plastic_babies_favors_6pcs_1.jpg

    So I bought them, brought them to game, and our heroes saved babies from a horde of undead who were burning down the infant orphanage. Mid-combat my heroes were saving babies from spreading flame and ravenous undead. The warlord coaxed a baby closer with a Diplomacy check. The wizard flew a baby to safety with Mage Hand. The warlord grabbed the infants and leaped through windows to hand them off to waiting townsfolk outside before leaping back in.

    all in all a very memorable encounter

    VdxNI.jpg
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    MeldingMelding Registered User regular
    yeah, classes are kinda restrictive, that's largely their intent. they define what you can and can not do.

    I however, have yet to find a classless fantasy game i like.

    also every system has problems and works around. it's kinda how games go. they've been printing since like 2nd edition ADnD "if you don't like a rule, don't use it. Need a rule for something we didn't think of? make one up!"

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    KalnaurKalnaur I See Rain . . . Centralia, WARegistered User regular
    edited January 2013
    Melding wrote: »
    Kalnaur wrote: »
    Melding wrote: »
    or, you could just say your guy knows about astronomy, cause it says so in his background and the DM will be like "that's a neat point. Cool" and if it ever comes up probably give you a bonus to the check.

    That's the way I do it.

    it's the way the designers intended. "So your character is the town smith and can make swords? rad, go with it"

    But i guess some people like mechanical representation of stuff like that. and i get that. I get like that sometimes too, but not enough.

    I think it's a little to granular for a game. I mean, it's like weapon degradation; there's realistic and then there's annoying. :/

    Then again, I prefer not to have a statistic for everything. Just the important, foundational things. Fiddly things like personal character quirks and knowledge, in my mind, should rest with the player and the DM to come up with, jointly, and flesh out within the bounds of a game. Not that suggestions on how to do this would be bad, but having to spend points in Arcana>Magical Items>Armor>Preapocalypse>Items made by the wizard Zoldar (to be a bit obtuse in my argument) is a bit fleshed out for me within the math of a system. I think it also works bette,r DM/player collaboration, because of the fact that then the DM can weave in the talents of the players that the players really care about, and leave other things by the wayside. For example, if a player thinks that their background in animal husbandry should be vitally important, I think it would work better for the DM and the player to hash out why.

    I do, however, think that those games should exist for those needing fiddly bits. Diversity breeds new nerds, after all, and I'd like gaming in any capacity to be as big as it can be.

    Kalnaur on
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    ToxTox I kill threads he/himRegistered User regular
    Dubh wrote: »
    Each class is built as an archetype. If you find one close to what you want, but it doesn't quite do the thing you want it to do? Then it's sorta discouraging.

    Yeah this is unfortunately a thing, and I view it as an inherent limitation of the class-based system. It's one I'm willing to accept, because 4e has a lot of classes, and between class, background, and theme, you can usually pull off most of what you're looking for.

    But a classic example of an archetype that doesn't exist is what my girlfriend wanted to play. She wanted to be a simple primal caster, with a pet. We ended up wedging it in with the Protector Druid MC Shaman, but it could have been far more convoluted than would be useful.

    She's still very new to RPGs, so she doesn't respond well to reflavoring. So when I tried to say, like, "just play a ranger and reflavor it as shooting bolts of primal energy from your bow" that didn't work for her. She needed to be using an implement, and she wanted to be a striker.

    We made it work, but if there had been an actual primal striker caster class, it would have been perfect because I could have slapped Fey Beast Tamer onto it and been done.

    Or a caster Sentinel build. That would have worked well, too.

    The other limitation is that she's still working out the whole roleplay thing (she views 4e as a table-top video game. Her play style is like she's playing Gauntlet. She doesn't really care about the story, she just wants to kill shit <3 ).

    But, yes, I fully agree that the class system has a very clear and difficult limitation. It just happens to be one I rarely run up against, so I don't really worry much about it.

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    DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) What's up, bootlickers?Registered User regular
    Melding wrote: »
    yeah, classes are kinda restrictive, that's largely their intent. they define what you can and can not do.

    I however, have yet to find a classless fantasy game i like.

    also every system has problems and works around. it's kinda how games go. they've been printing since like 2nd edition ADnD "if you don't like a rule, don't use it. Need a rule for something we didn't think of? make one up!"

    Mutants and Masterminds?

    Like, it's strikingly similar in some respects to D&D

    But with scottish cries of freedom included

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    ToxTox I kill threads he/himRegistered User regular
    It usually ended up working out for my old group because instead of roleplaying during or after combat we'd get sidetracked talking about anything and everything else under the sun. D&D was just as much an excuse for like 5 or 6 people to sit down for 8 hours and have conversations as it was the reason we were there.

    This is literally my 2nd edition group. We'd play for hours and hours upon end, and get maybe 2 or three hours of actual gameplay done in that time.

    Twitter! | Dilige, et quod vis fac
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    MeldingMelding Registered User regular
    yeah, the lack of primal sorcererererer like class is odd.

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    animal companionanimal companion xenomortis Registered User regular
    I played official pathfinder at a store a couple of weeks ago

    our party infiltrated an embassy during a gala to steal sensitive documents about our missing associate

    on this mission of grace and subtlety we had
    a blue-skinned gnome bard
    three barbarians
    and me, the rogue who only rolled 2s

    VdxNI.jpg
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    Cilla BlackCilla Black Priscilla!!! Registered User regular
    Well

    the difference is really encounters

    in a system like D&D's, an encounter is going to be combat and dungeon crawling. But the dungeon crawling is really just window dressing for the combat. Roll some dice to avoid traps, maybe in an especially creative game, roll some dice to talk a guard away from his post while you sneak by and open the gate for your party.

    in a system like White Wolf's, encounters are more diversified, and you've got full skills and character paths to weave through conversations and surveillance routines and really anything your GM can think of. Combat though is vastly more shallow.

    It's fine to look at a system like D&D's and see how adding more micromanagement to skills like astonomy and suchlike would be unnecessary when you can just mention it to your DM. But that's because the system is primarily designed around combat, and you're just not going to need astronomy to punch a goblin in the face. But when the whole of your rules and way the game unfolds is balanced around situations where your knowledge of astonomy could be critical, it makes more sense to apply an actual gameplay structure for it.

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    MeldingMelding Registered User regular
    Dubh wrote: »
    Melding wrote: »
    yeah, classes are kinda restrictive, that's largely their intent. they define what you can and can not do.

    I however, have yet to find a classless fantasy game i like.

    also every system has problems and works around. it's kinda how games go. they've been printing since like 2nd edition ADnD "if you don't like a rule, don't use it. Need a rule for something we didn't think of? make one up!"

    Mutants and Masterminds?

    Like, it's strikingly similar in some respects to D&D

    But with scottish cries of freedom included

    no loot.

    without loot, why am i even exploring?

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    DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) What's up, bootlickers?Registered User regular
    hey, some of my best D&D characters were shit at combat

    and with no dinking of the rules, they did quite well

    different strokes indeed

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    Cilla BlackCilla Black Priscilla!!! Registered User regular
    I mean (and this is without having playing 4E keep in mind) you can have encounters without combat in D&D

    but they all boil down to looking at a set of skills on your sheet, the DM giving you a number you need to hit, and you rolling the dice to try and get that number. a creative group and talented DM will add in the show from there, but it's not the same as the depths you can get with skills and builds during combat, where the game really shines.

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    BucketmanBucketman Call me SkraggRegistered User regular
    The worst thing a GM can do is not assume his party is going to go off book.
    Like my friend ran a game for us, she had it set up where we were all suppose to meet up at this military checkpoint and that starts the game, then further along the road there was this inn. She described it as warm and inviting. We said fuck it and kept going.
    Instead of killing the local band of goblins who were raiding farms we helped them form a functional society and learn how to survive without killing, then, ironically we had to defend them from angry townsfolk who killed an emissary who tried to give them food/money to help through the winter in return for all the cattle/crops the goblins had taken.
    That was a fun game

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    DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) What's up, bootlickers?Registered User regular
    Melding wrote: »
    Dubh wrote: »
    Melding wrote: »
    yeah, classes are kinda restrictive, that's largely their intent. they define what you can and can not do.

    I however, have yet to find a classless fantasy game i like.

    also every system has problems and works around. it's kinda how games go. they've been printing since like 2nd edition ADnD "if you don't like a rule, don't use it. Need a rule for something we didn't think of? make one up!"

    Mutants and Masterminds?

    Like, it's strikingly similar in some respects to D&D

    But with scottish cries of freedom included

    no loot.

    without loot, why am i even exploring?

    actually

    equipment is something covered with points

    you can give out shit for players to equip no problem

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    MeldingMelding Registered User regular
    yeah i've looked at that, seems ineloquent. plus when getting away from dnd i try to avoid d20 all together.

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    KalnaurKalnaur I See Rain . . . Centralia, WARegistered User regular
    Melding wrote: »
    Kalnaur, we are shockingly alike in many respects.

    Are..are you secretly me?

    What happens if I say yes?
    Tox wrote: »
    Dubh wrote: »
    Each class is built as an archetype. If you find one close to what you want, but it doesn't quite do the thing you want it to do? Then it's sorta discouraging.

    Yeah this is unfortunately a thing, and I view it as an inherent limitation of the class-based system. It's one I'm willing to accept, because 4e has a lot of classes, and between class, background, and theme, you can usually pull off most of what you're looking for.

    But a classic example of an archetype that doesn't exist is what my girlfriend wanted to play. She wanted to be a simple primal caster, with a pet. We ended up wedging it in with the Protector Druid MC Shaman, but it could have been far more convoluted than would be useful.

    She's still very new to RPGs, so she doesn't respond well to reflavoring. So when I tried to say, like, "just play a ranger and reflavor it as shooting bolts of primal energy from your bow" that didn't work for her. She needed to be using an implement, and she wanted to be a striker.

    We made it work, but if there had been an actual primal striker caster class, it would have been perfect because I could have slapped Fey Beast Tamer onto it and been done.

    Or a caster Sentinel build. That would have worked well, too.

    The other limitation is that she's still working out the whole roleplay thing (she views 4e as a table-top video game. Her play style is like she's playing Gauntlet. She doesn't really care about the story, she just wants to kill shit <3 ).

    But, yes, I fully agree that the class system has a very clear and difficult limitation. It just happens to be one I rarely run up against, so I don't really worry much about it.

    See, and I sorta like the class limits there are. Sometimes a classless or semi classless game can be fun; regardless of game, thought, I still always end up as a magic wielding guy with a slight handle on weapons.

    Oh ,and primal caster with a pet could be done with a druid Protector with the animal master or fey beast tamer themes. Unless this happened before the wonder that is themes. Then I totally see what you mean.
    I mean (and this is without having playing 4E keep in mind) you can have encounters without combat in D&D

    but they all boil down to looking at a set of skills on your sheet, the DM giving you a number you need to hit, and you rolling the dice to try and get that number. a creative group and talented DM will add in the show from there, but it's not the same as the depths you can get with skills and builds during combat, where the game really shines.

    Yeah, I like, in or out of combat, taking my player's passive skills (their skill bonus + 10) and dispensing information and such through that, which commonly makes them want to ask more questions and/or roll dice to find out more. And they actually love asking exploratory questions. They also really love to kill shit.

    @Dubh, I doubt we'd ever see eye to eye on games, but I still respect you, both as a human being and as a gamer. I'm glad you know what you like.

    Although I bet at least threee of us here could give you a good experience with 4th ed. :D

    I make art things! deviantART: Kalnaur ::: Origin: Kalnaur ::: UPlay: Kalnaur
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    gtrmpgtrmp Registered User regular
    Dubh wrote: »
    Kalnaur wrote: »
    Dubh wrote: »
    There's way more flexible systems than 4e

    If you don't like the options you're provided, it's tough titties
    Unless you want to spend the time fitting custom content in

    Which options do you mean? I've found it rather expansive.

    Each class is built as an archetype. If you find one close to what you want, but it doesn't quite do the thing you want it to do? Then it's sorta discouraging.

    That's not an issue with 4e in particular so much as it is an issue with all class-based games.

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    DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Man I was checking FFG's website and apparently there isn't going to be a nice little boxset with book and dice, so I'm going to have to end up getting the core book, GM kit and a set of dice all separately when it comes out.

    Well... I'm sure they can cut me some sort of deal at the LGS for getting all that shit together at one time, not to mention probably running it there for a while.

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    MeldingMelding Registered User regular
    Kalnaur wrote: »
    Melding wrote: »
    Kalnaur, we are shockingly alike in many respects.

    Are..are you secretly me?

    What happens if I say yes?

    i don't know.

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    DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    You have the conversation.

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    FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Man, I need to play more of this. Also, Dubh, are you the one who posted the occult hand stuff in the history thread? That was fascinating.

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    MeldingMelding Registered User regular
    actually if memory serves, you just become part of the Melding collective.

    We have 5 members so far! only one of them posts here however.

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    DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) What's up, bootlickers?Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Man, I need to play more of this. Also, Dubh, are you the one who posted the occult hand stuff in the history thread? That was fascinating.

    I didn't post it

    I just stole the phrase

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    KalnaurKalnaur I See Rain . . . Centralia, WARegistered User regular
    Melding wrote: »
    Kalnaur wrote: »
    Melding wrote: »
    Kalnaur, we are shockingly alike in many respects.

    Are..are you secretly me?

    What happens if I say yes?

    I don't know.

    I might be a clone.

    Or maybe you're the clone.

    Or maybe we're cylons? I do sometimes get the urge to injure folks. Usually it's because they are showing their ignorance, though, so I'm not sure it counts.

    I make art things! deviantART: Kalnaur ::: Origin: Kalnaur ::: UPlay: Kalnaur
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    MeldingMelding Registered User regular
    i don't think i'm a clone. i've checked a number of times for bar codes.

    but then none of the others seem to have them either.

    I don't know man.

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    GlaziusGlazius Registered User regular
    edited January 2013
    Dichotomy wrote: »
    should modrons get more attention

    y / y

    It was about the third millennium of the Game of Making when it happened. The inevitables showed up in force for the revelation ceremony. Originally we thought they'd brought some stuff to be judged for inclusion, but no, they all crowded around Moradin's pavilion.

    Turns out some of the dwarves decided to get especially creative that year and devised self-replicating mechanical lifeforms. Modifiable drones, "modrons" for short. Well, they're certainly a thing that can be made, and we have to make everything if we're ever going to figure out how to get the divine lattice back online, but there was a problem.

    The Carceri accords.

    You could see it just kind of filter through the builders' heads, fascinating to watch, really. Nobody connected these little scrambling creatures building their own tottering houses out of scrap with the abominations, the siege weapons of the gods, locked up in Carceri to never be made again. But they were a lifeform wrought out of the astral matter, and in technical violation, and the inevitables are nothing if not technical.

    Well, the Game of Making went on without the dwarves and their exhibit that year, but after much debate in the back rooms of the Shining City, there was an announcement after everything had all wrapped up. The inevitables were going to take permanent custody of the little modrons, and they were going to test them, to make sure they weren't going to turn into a threat, in the toughest way anyone knew how.

    They would have to survive the thing that killed the Illumians.

    It was a little insensitive making that sort of statement in the halls of Erathis, really. She still grieves for them, the people who took words to their hearts, and the way they turned on each other, brother against brother, over whose words were the best.

    They surprised us all when they succeeded, in their own uniquely peculiar way. The dwarves had designed them to link with each other, physically interlock in order to take on challenges that needed more strength than one modron had alone. When the inevitables infused half the modrons with a "mind" and half with a "soul", the conflict that ensued... was a challenge that needed more strength. One modron with one word linked with one with the other, and there was no more conflict.

    I've been to Mechanus several times over the centuries, the little world the inevitables allowed the modrons to build for themselves. What they do all day is mostly the scutwork of the Game of Making, filling out the lists of creatable things one tiny variation at a time, accruing valuation bit by bit for the inevitables, to use as they see fit. Occasionally the inevitables dump some poor oathbreaker in there, to make amends through honest but crushingly repetitive labor.

    People grumble, of course. They always do. Every year at the Game of Making, when Mechanus takes a sizable chunk of the bounty despite not even attempting one of the top hundred projects, there are always whispers that the inevitables are storing it all up for something, like a controlling interest in the Shining City or a fleet of dreadnoughts or goodness only knows what. And every year the payment for the bottom rungs gets pared back a little more, and a little more, until only the modrons will even bother to try.

    But you know? I think they'd keep doing it for free, the modrons. It's what they were made for.

    Glazius on
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    DoobhDoobh She/Her, Ace Pan/Bisexual 8-) What's up, bootlickers?Registered User regular
    Glazius,

    Good work. Just... excellent.

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    Edith UpwardsEdith Upwards Registered User regular
    If Ex3 is as durable as I think it is I'll try some barebones shit for a Planescape conversion and throw it onto the thread for you to scuttle and pick at it like a bunch of fascinating bugs.

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