I'm sort of torn on it. I'm not crazy about the recent strand of super extreme feminizism that seems to gone full circle and returned to an oddly puritan state that automatically equates all enjoyment of male heterosexual sexuality with immaturity and chauvinism--sex and sexiness are good and healthy for all genders and sexual preferences, lest we forget--but the stuff in Bayonetta does seem to cross the line. It's doesn't seem to serve any particular narrative or artistic purpose, and isn't even particularly enjoyable in an erotic sense--it's just childish and embarrassing.
It's still a good game, but I can't help but agree with the complaints.
It says a lot that Bayonetta is actually a big source of debate in those circles. Some think she's great, some think she's all Male gaze.
It's absolutely not a case of "All feminists" (because nothing ever is), since right now on twitter there's debate between some of the biggest voices on female representation in games of late on wether Bayonetta is good, bad or awesome.
there would be no argument if it was a conventional bad representation
whatever it is, its not a straightforward slam dunk
I think the fact is it sits within two mediums (anime and games) that dont exactly have a great track record with this stuff, and the current climate is vitriolic and not exactly the best time to have a game that skirts the line so closely. Yes, the game is commenting and making fun of sexist and male-gaze characters, and yes the character herself is pretty clearly condemning the sexist side, but its just not great timing
video games more broadly have not yet achieved the sort of distance between the offense stereotype, and the joke parodying the offensive stereotype, necessary for this to be immediately recognisable as parody or commentary.
EDITD Bad comparison
(basically parodies which condemn outdated offensive media from the past tend to only work really well when that offensive media isnt still prevalent and isnt being aggressively (and abusively) defended by a significant vocal portion of the audience.)
Its not the games fault, and actually playing the game will help to alleviate most of the concern, but you can see where people are coming from when theyre not exactly ready to give games the benefit of the doubt with this kind of thing.
Ive only played the first Bayonetta, and for most of it I was confused and while I got the general sense that it was making fun of a certain kind of Japanese/Anime kind of video game, it was never really totally clear and so the lines of parody got a little blurred. It seemed to want to have its cake and eat it to
I'm sort of torn on it. I'm not crazy about the recent strand of super extreme feminizism that seems to gone full circle and returned to an oddly puritan state that automatically equates all enjoyment of male heterosexual sexuality with immaturity and chauvinism--sex and sexiness are good and healthy for all genders and sexual preferences, lest we forget--but the stuff in Bayonetta does seem to cross the line. It's doesn't seem to serve any particular narrative or artistic purpose, and isn't even particularly enjoyable in an erotic sense--it's just childish and embarrassing.
It's still a good game, but I can't help but agree with the complaints.
It says a lot that Bayonetta is actually a big source of debate in those circles. Some think she's great, some think she's all Male gaze.
It's absolutely not a case of "All feminists" (because nothing ever is), since right now on twitter there's debate between some of the biggest voices on female representation in games of late on wether Bayonetta is good, bad or awesome.
there would be no argument if it was a conventional bad representation
whatever it is, its not a straightforward slam dunk
Can it be called progress?
I would say definitely, it's healthy to have a character that creates discussion on women being in charge of their sexuality and being proud of it, most positive female characters tend to stay away from sexuality or end up having it portrayed in... troubling ways
Whether Bayonetta the character is good or bad is maybe irrelevant, I think the conversation that comes from her games can only be a net positive.
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
So that first verse.
Holy crap does it have a stringent combo requirement!
Also repeated weaves do not raise your combo multiplier anymore. Which means pure pkp will not raise your combo very high. You need to mix up your weaves.
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
0
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
Holy crap does it have a stringent combo requirement!
Also repeated weaves do not raise your combo multiplier anymore. Which means pure pkp will not raise your combo very high. You need to mix up your weaves.
Brother you ain't joking
You gotta get yourself to that 9.99x multiplier as fast as possible and never let go of it
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
So my fiancee has been playing the first bayonetta for 360 and LOVING it. Yesterday she suggested she wanted to pre-order the second one for WiiU. I wanted to play through the first properly (i didn't get very far as i was young and stupid and couldn't appreciate it but have loved watching her play) so we are going halves on it for release day on one and two. HOORAY! So excited you guys.
Also, I'm pretty sure Bayonetta is a female empowerment power fantasy. Everything she does is on her terms, not the terms of the males gazing upon her. It's a "happy for you to look but don't touch" kind of deal. I'm pretty sure even pole dancers and dominatrixes can be feminists. Polygon missed the point entirely because of course they did - it's polygon.
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0
Casually HardcoreOnce an Asshole. Trying to be better.Registered Userregular
The only people who has a problem with Baynetta sexuality are the people who believe women should by cover up from head to toe because sex is icky and a product of sin.
The only people who has a problem with Baynetta sexuality are the people who believe women should by cover up from head to toe because sex is icky and a product of sin.
Wow. You couldn't be more wrong.
Can we please quit shitting on people who are unconfortable with Bayonetta being crazy over the top sexy? They have good reasons, it's very easily interpreted as objectifying and it's an incredibly immature attitude to take in the first place.
The only people who has a problem with Baynetta sexuality are the people who believe women should by cover up from head to toe because sex is icky and a product of sin.
Well no. No that's not true.
In fact I imagine it would be quite easy to find someone who would say "this game is overly sexual and potentially problematic" and would also say "I don't believe all women should wear burqas."
I might actually buy this before getting a WiiU, which I think would be the only time I've ever spent money on something I can't play immediately. I guess in this case Bayo will be all male gaze until I'm actually able to play it?
I might actually buy this before getting a WiiU, which I think would be the only time I've ever spent money on something I can't play immediately. I guess in this case Bayo will be all male gaze until I'm actually able to play it?
Not sure if anyone else noticed this yet, but apparently Bayonetta 2 is flat-out cheaper on eShop than retail if you're not buying Bayo 1. According to the blurb on the game's store page, it'll be $49.99, the original will be $29.99, and both together will be $59.98.
I must admit, Nintendo's discount process is pretty insidious.
Almost all of their deals revolve around giving you a discount if you already own another specific product.
It's enabling, that's what it is.
They also (at least in EU) do a shit ton of 'buy this game and choose one of these 5 for free' deals. Almost every major release gets something along those lines.
Steam / Xbox Live: WSDX NNID: W-S-D-X 3DS FC: 2637-9461-8549
I don't disagree, but if you already have the first game and the additional content doesn't compel you to play it again, then it's a decent option
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited October 2014
Incidentally, gentle friends, I would like to point out a control plus for both bayo games that I noticed.
Both games have the dodge on the trigger button right? I dunno how it works for 360, but on ps3 at least the trigger is pressure sensitive. So you have a bit of give before it triggers and there's a lot of unnecessary mush.
If the pro controller is like the gamepad, then dodge in bayo games on wii u is digital. It's just a button. You press and you dodge. Instant feedback.
I can't even begin to describe how much better this is. I would have remapped dodge if I could in the previous game.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited October 2014
HOLY JESUS MOTHER FUCKERS
HAVE YOU GUYS DONE KKK pause KICK (mash) WITH WHIP FEET?
ITS A FULL SCREEN MASSIVE CAPOERA HELICOPTER KICK AOE THAT TORNADOES EVERYTHING INTO THE SKY
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Incidentally, gentle friends, I would like to point out a control plus for both bayo games that I noticed.
Both games have the dodge on the trigger button right? I dunno how it works for 360, but on ps3 at least the trigger is pressure sensitive. So you have a bit of give before it triggers and there's a lot of unnecessary mush.
If the pro controller is like the gamepad, then dodge in bayo games on wii u is digital. It's just a button. You press and you dodge. Instant feedback.
I can't even begin to describe how much better this is. I would have remapped dodge if I could in the previous game.
360 is digital.
Intetestingly the GC triggers click twice . No idea why Sony didnt emulate that
I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
0
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited October 2014
So it isn't actually a pressure sensitive trigger?
Man they would never have mapped the dodge to trigger on ps3 if they'd been making it for ps3. It just wouldn't have happened.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
0
MongerI got the ham stink.Dallas, TXRegistered Userregular
The 360's triggers are all the way analog. The PC drivers even register them as a joystick axis.
It's the bumpers that are digital, which were used for taunt and lockon.
Posts
Can it be called progress?
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video games more broadly have not yet achieved the sort of distance between the offense stereotype, and the joke parodying the offensive stereotype, necessary for this to be immediately recognisable as parody or commentary.
EDITD Bad comparison
(basically parodies which condemn outdated offensive media from the past tend to only work really well when that offensive media isnt still prevalent and isnt being aggressively (and abusively) defended by a significant vocal portion of the audience.)
Its not the games fault, and actually playing the game will help to alleviate most of the concern, but you can see where people are coming from when theyre not exactly ready to give games the benefit of the doubt with this kind of thing.
Ive only played the first Bayonetta, and for most of it I was confused and while I got the general sense that it was making fun of a certain kind of Japanese/Anime kind of video game, it was never really totally clear and so the lines of parody got a little blurred. It seemed to want to have its cake and eat it to
I would say definitely, it's healthy to have a character that creates discussion on women being in charge of their sexuality and being proud of it, most positive female characters tend to stay away from sexuality or end up having it portrayed in... troubling ways
Whether Bayonetta the character is good or bad is maybe irrelevant, I think the conversation that comes from her games can only be a net positive.
3DS: 2019-9671-8106 NNID: RamblinMushroom
Twitter/Tumblr
Holy crap does it have a stringent combo requirement!
Also repeated weaves do not raise your combo multiplier anymore. Which means pure pkp will not raise your combo very high. You need to mix up your weaves.
Brother you ain't joking
You gotta get yourself to that 9.99x multiplier as fast as possible and never let go of it
Why don't I have a WiiU? *sobs*
Oh Bayonetta.
Worth every dollar.
surrealitycheck leans forward slightly, whispers gently
"I never fuckin' doubted ya"
Also, I'm pretty sure Bayonetta is a female empowerment power fantasy. Everything she does is on her terms, not the terms of the males gazing upon her. It's a "happy for you to look but don't touch" kind of deal. I'm pretty sure even pole dancers and dominatrixes can be feminists. Polygon missed the point entirely because of course they did - it's polygon.
STEAM: Quical
Check out my youtube channel, maybe subscribe?: NerdAndOrGeek
Wow. You couldn't be more wrong.
Can we please quit shitting on people who are unconfortable with Bayonetta being crazy over the top sexy? They have good reasons, it's very easily interpreted as objectifying and it's an incredibly immature attitude to take in the first place.
Well no. No that's not true.
In fact I imagine it would be quite easy to find someone who would say "this game is overly sexual and potentially problematic" and would also say "I don't believe all women should wear burqas."
This is a war crime
D...double climax?
Wii U NNID: TJandSam Steam: BrokenBrik
Just don't get fresh, young man.
So there's a tv commercial, that's pretty neat.
twitch.tv/Taramoor
@TaramoorPlays
Taramoor on Youtube
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PM Me if you add me!
Let's Plays of Japanese Games
Let's Plays of Japanese Games
Ironically it came up as an ad on YouTube when I just searched Bayonetta 2 commercial.
Switch (JeffConser): SW-3353-5433-5137 Wii U: Skeldare - 3DS: 1848-1663-9345
PM Me if you add me!
Almost all of their deals revolve around giving you a discount if you already own another specific product.
It's enabling, that's what it is.
twitch.tv/Taramoor
@TaramoorPlays
Taramoor on Youtube
They also (at least in EU) do a shit ton of 'buy this game and choose one of these 5 for free' deals. Almost every major release gets something along those lines.
I don't disagree, but if you already have the first game and the additional content doesn't compel you to play it again, then it's a decent option
Both games have the dodge on the trigger button right? I dunno how it works for 360, but on ps3 at least the trigger is pressure sensitive. So you have a bit of give before it triggers and there's a lot of unnecessary mush.
If the pro controller is like the gamepad, then dodge in bayo games on wii u is digital. It's just a button. You press and you dodge. Instant feedback.
I can't even begin to describe how much better this is. I would have remapped dodge if I could in the previous game.
HAVE YOU GUYS DONE KKK pause KICK (mash) WITH WHIP FEET?
ITS A FULL SCREEN MASSIVE CAPOERA HELICOPTER KICK AOE THAT TORNADOES EVERYTHING INTO THE SKY
360 is digital.
Intetestingly the GC triggers click twice . No idea why Sony didnt emulate that
Man they would never have mapped the dodge to trigger on ps3 if they'd been making it for ps3. It just wouldn't have happened.
It's the bumpers that are digital, which were used for taunt and lockon.
All right, people. It is not a gerbil. It is not a hamster. It is not a guinea pig. It is a death rabbit. Death. Rabbit. Say it with me, now.
Or to Bayonetta if you died and didn't choose continue.