As an aside... why not have it so you can vote kick a player (like voting to surrender, you need the majority) right at champ select? I am rather sick of having to either calling the trolls bluff and likely losing a game, or losing points anyways and having to wait and hope that I do not get a troll next champ select. Right now, all the power is in their hands of the trolls and if we could force the troll to dodge it would be a lot better.
(At least for solo que play, so we do not get groups of 4 trolls kicking everyone all the time)
There are people going 10-0 during placement and ending up in Diamond. Can you be the hero?
I'm pretty sure those ones were top plats or diamonds at the end of season 2 though. It's not mathematically possible from 1250.
Yeah, Elo got compressed not wiped. If you were 1900 last season you got compressed to around 1550-1600. 10 wins would have put you right back into Plat.
Explain why? If you are solo que, that means you got 4 other differently minded individuals. since you need 4 votes, it can not be used for bullying because the other people simply wont agree.
Explain why? If you are solo que, that means you got 4 other differently minded individuals. since you need 4 votes, it can not be used for bullying because the other people simply wont agree.
do you actually think this would happen, and people wouldn't just kick anyone who wanted to play a low tier character
There are people going 10-0 during placement and ending up in Diamond. Can you be the hero?
I went 7-3 and got placed at
1070 Elo I believe
I may have been at 950-1000 at the end of S2
Climbed up to 1133 or so before leagues
I'm bronze 2. 5 games later, went 4-1, with a 4 game winning streak (game one duo que trolls who went trolls when one didn't get top as last pick ) and have 97 LP
To start this discussion, I’d like to go back in time a bit. Back in June of 2012, we announced a change to the ranked queue dodge penalty. It was clarified that the change was somewhat of an experiment and that we'd be making further changes if necessary. At the time, we removed Elo penalties for two reasons:
1. The Elo penalties were undermining the matchmaker and opening up abuse cases that people were very much using.
2. Queue dodging is sometimes a valid defense mechanism against toxic situations, and we didn't want to punish people too harshly for using it.
In many ways this worked out well. Players looking for easy wins could no longer dodge their way down to Elo ratings hundreds or thousands points below their skill level. Other players stuck with true griefers in their lobby could get out of that situation without any permanent penalty. These are all good things.
However, over the last 7 months it became clear that there were three undesirable side effects:
1. Trolls gained more power in champ select.
2. Players were much less willing to work together and became much more focused on what they individually wanted.
3. Some players started using queue dodging to micromanage their Elo gains and would dodge whenever they perceived the matchup to be unfavorable.
The first two above led to an increase in trolling in champ select, which in turns leads to an increase in queue dodging. Combined with the increases from the micromanaging group, it’s now the case that queue dodging is very common in the ranked solo queue.
You might think that I'm crazy based on the first point above. “Trolls gained more power when we removed the Elo penalty?” You're probably also thinking that by increasing the penalty now, we're giving trolls more power because it punishes innocent players who are trying to avoid trolls.
The key is this: most trolls want to win just as much as you do. They might believe they need a certain role to do that, or they might be annoying to interact with, but at the end of the day they generally want to win the games they queue up for. Here's a corollary: most trolls don't want to sit through a 30 minute game rocking Karma/Revive/Promote (or whatever the latest "troll picks" are) just as much as you don't want to be in the game alongside them. What they want when they troll pick is for you to dodge for them, because then they'll get another lobby and they might get the role they want. Think back to the days when there was a 10 Elo penalty for dodging. There was much less troll picking in champ select for one simple reason: it often didn't work. If no one dodges, everyone on the team loses, and no individual wanted to dodge and lose Elo, so everyone was compelled to cooperate more. But with the removal of the Elo penalty, it was almost guaranteed that someone would dodge, and once it was clear that troll picking and/or threatening "X or feed" worked, more players starting doing it.
So here's how the penalties work now that the League System is active:
* Dodging in the ranked solo queue will trigger a 6 minute lockout and will deduct 3 League Points (LP).
* Dodging in ranked solo if you've dodged recently will trigger a 30 minute lockout and will deduct 10 LP.
* Dodging a ranked team game will trigger a 1 minute lockout and will deduct 10 LP from the team.
* Dodging in ranked teams if you've dodged recently will trigger a 60 minute lockout and will still deduct 10 LP from the team.
* Dodging during a Promotion or Division series will cancel the series, so you'll have to get back to 100 LP to start another series (likely just one game away, unless you had already lost a couple series games).
Now that League Points are on the line, there's much more incentive for everyone on the team to work together and try to reach a positive consensus on champions and roles. The number of League Points lost is small enough that it's not a huge setback if a dodge does happen, but it's big enough that players will think twice about dodging just because they don't like the matchup or didn't get their role. Taking away League Points does not tell the matchmaker that you're worse at the game, which means the penalty is no longer opening up abuse cases or leading to unfair matches. We've also greatly shortened the time penalties, and almost completely removed them from ranked team dodges, because it sucks when everyone has to wait around for a teammate's dodge penalty to wear off. In general, our goal here is to reduce the amount of time that it takes you to get a game started by reducing the number of failed lobbies.
As with many changes that we make these days, this is an experiment. We'll be monitoring the effects, both in terms of queue dodge rates and also in terms of the feedback that you all give us on the forums. I'll personally be reading all of the replies in this thread even if I don't have a chance to reply to them.
or or or
Riot
Allow us to report people during the champ select portion of the game. I guarantee you that would solve 99% of the problems.
You can and I've done it multiple times. Copy and paste the chat to notepad, and use their website to report. Also you can paste it into the chat box at the end of the game when you report them.
Explain why? If you are solo que, that means you got 4 other differently minded individuals. since you need 4 votes, it can not be used for bullying because the other people simply wont agree.
do you actually think this would happen, and people wouldn't just kick anyone who wanted to play a low tier character
Yeah... I think the odds of at least one of the 4 people not being a troll is better then our current situation where one person can bully everyone by saying do as I say or I feed.
I think the odds of the four people deciding they don't want to be support will more then make people willing to kick a fifth just to avoid it. People get mean and creative to avoid jungle or support.
eeSanGI slice like a goddamn hammer.Registered Userregular
Solo queueing as Support is an easy way to start climbing ranked. Bot lane and mid/late game map vision is pretty much 80% dictated by Support. When you have a 100% chance of not having a useless Support, games become much easier to win.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
+2
MaddocI'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother?Registered Userregular
Even discounting that I just have more fun during the laning phase as support than anything else.
Right, have you ever played HoN which has the kick feature? it's a troll tool, not useful for actually removing trolls.
Nope, never tried HoN... However, right now, 1 single person can bully every other person in the que until they get what they want, forcing player after player to dodge or lose a game.
I really have a hard time seeing how putting the decision into the hands of multiple possibly non-troll people will get a worse outcome.
Explain why? If you are solo que, that means you got 4 other differently minded individuals. since you need 4 votes, it can not be used for bullying because the other people simply wont agree.
Hypothetical Game 1:
Player A: Hey guys, I'd like to jungle.
Player B: Posts lolking stats. You have a 45% win rate in the jungle, I have over 60%. I am jungling.
Player A: I pick before you, jungle is my best role, I want to jungle.
Player C: Let player B do it.
Player B: You suck at jungle. I am doing it.
Player A: No, I am jungling.
Player B: Who wants to kick this guy?
*Player A kicked from game*
Hypothetical Game 2:
Player A posts bans.
Player B & C: HOLY FUCK YOU DIDN'T BAN SHEN?
Player A: Silent.
Player B: Well, this game is lost. Player A didn't ban Shen, we're fucked. I'm initiating a vote kick because I don't want to play with this asshole.
*Player A kicked from game"
It's a bad idea, because people will absolutely abuse the fuck out of it to punish good players and it wont stop your trolls. They'll only be more savvy.
Most trolls don't want to play that game either, they want to make someone else dodge. The only way to win against them is to call their bluff and have them dodge, or report them after the game.
Solo queueing as Support is an easy way to start climbing ranked. Bot lane and mid/late game map vision is pretty much 80% dictated by Support. When you have a 100% chance of not having a useless Support, games become much easier to win.
I agree, but you have to pick a support that you can also "Fuck these guys, time to carry." with. Zyra is my preferred support in solo queue atm for this reason.
I like the changes so far for season 3, even though I got to Bronze 1 to start due to my epic losing streak before the turnover. Will have to see how quick I can level up when I play this with my free time.
Ranked games have been some of the most fun I've had in months. Everyone seems to be playing more competitively than before patch. Hardly any dodges. Got my 100 points: Rank up series goes 1 hard fought loss, 1 hard fought win where I dominate on Lux (New skin so good!) and then in the tiebreaker match we lose in 20 minutes 4-25 and i was 3-4, rest of the team literally 1-21.
Explain why? If you are solo que, that means you got 4 other differently minded individuals. since you need 4 votes, it can not be used for bullying because the other people simply wont agree.
Hypothetical Game 1:
Player A: Hey guys, I'd like to jungle.
Player B: Posts lolking stats. You have a 45% win rate in the jungle, I have over 60%. I am jungling.
Player A: I pick before you, jungle is my best role, I want to jungle.
Player C: Let player B do it.
Player B: You suck at jungle. I am doing it.
Player A: No, I am jungling.
Player B: Who wants to kick this guy?
*Player A kicked from game*
Hypothetical Game 2:
Player A posts bans.
Player B & C: HOLY FUCK YOU DIDN'T BAN SHEN?
Player A: Silent.
Player B: Well, this game is lost. Player A didn't ban Shen, we're fucked. I'm initiating a vote kick because I don't want to play with this asshole.
*Player A kicked from game"
It's a bad idea, because people will absolutely abuse the fuck out of it to punish good players and it wont stop your trolls. They'll only be more savvy.
Now this explains things a bit better. However, in each of your Hypothetical games you could have Player D, or Player E, who says, nah man, I am not gunna kick him just because he did not ban Shen, that would be stupid and trollish.
Our current games run like this:
Player A: Mid or I feed.
Player B: ....
Player C: ....
Player ....
Player E: ....
Player E has dodged.
New Group,
Player A: Hey guys, still mid or I feed.
Everyone: ....
Silver division 1 apparently goes to 1550 ELO, not 1500*, so its a bit harder to get gold anymore
*On average. Your ELO can be outside those ranges but when it is, you gain more league points for wins and lose less for losses, accelerating your trip to gold (or silver division 4)
edit: And you may need 1600 ELO to get into gold 5 too. Because the system is skeptical about upping divisions and is awarding lower LP to wins in division 1.
nunu has been nerfnerf'd and you won't be seeing him nearly as much.
the only time i've seen a taric ban has been a target ban against me with another group i was playing an in house with.
fear the pink fuzzy boots. fear them.
I actually think they did a good job of choosing the nerf to Nunu.. Bloodboil was a bit too strong (I do miss the movement speed for my jungle, but they added 5 base which also helps and has really helped me get my snowball started.). They only nerfed his support Max Bloodboil be a soak role, and helped his jungle a bit.. I've been having a blast going AP Yeti and owning fools.. Mejai's with a RoA is a silly amount of snowball, and with Nunu's highest health in game end game... Some good, even without too much tanky (but why wouldn't you go tanky?)
@Delphinidaes
Really enjoyed watching your stream. I love your constant commentary, very easy to listen to.
Look forward to seeing more!
I thought that last game was a fitting conclusion to your placement matches
Haha thanks! Yeah I was bummed at first because I really wanted annie in all 10 placement matches but I agree that it was fitting that I had to go up against her for the final match.
I made some really bad plays early on though (got too overzealous) but luckily Zed is really good at taking out a single target and I was able to bring that advantage into the other lanes a bit.
Our Singed got good jungle support top as well and I got a bit of gank help too, our Skarner did some good work, and it let our Graves and Singed also snowball.
Delphinidaes on
NNID: delphinidaes Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
That means you were a positive force in the community. Nice
And all it took was keeping up my policy of not talking to anyone in chat ever!
i'm frigging quick with the mute button, only say positive things in chat, sometimes things like "taric use your ult when we're hitting this tower", but i don't engage the trolls, i mute them.
Okay... what do I do when I've hit 22k total gold in a game? I already had Ruined King, Alacrity Mercury, Last Whisper, Black Cleaver, Frozen Mallet, and Warmog's on Vi (4k HP... meaning 400 HP blast shields... and I was hitting for like 30% max hp over each three attack chain)
Posts
I'm pretty sure those ones were top plats or diamonds at the end of season 2 though. It's not mathematically possible from 1250.
(At least for solo que play, so we do not get groups of 4 trolls kicking everyone all the time)
Yeah, Elo got compressed not wiped. If you were 1900 last season you got compressed to around 1550-1600. 10 wins would have put you right back into Plat.
do you actually think this would happen, and people wouldn't just kick anyone who wanted to play a low tier character
I went 7-3 and got placed at
I may have been at 950-1000 at the end of S2
Climbed up to 1133 or so before leagues
I'm bronze 2. 5 games later, went 4-1, with a 4 game winning streak (game one duo que trolls who went trolls when one didn't get top as last pick ) and have 97 LP
You can and I've done it multiple times. Copy and paste the chat to notepad, and use their website to report. Also you can paste it into the chat box at the end of the game when you report them.
Yeah... I think the odds of at least one of the 4 people not being a troll is better then our current situation where one person can bully everyone by saying do as I say or I feed.
Joe's Stream.
Slice like a god damn hammer. LoL: Rafflesia / BNet: Talonflame#11979
I really have a hard time seeing how putting the decision into the hands of multiple possibly non-troll people will get a worse outcome.
Hypothetical Game 1:
Player A: Hey guys, I'd like to jungle.
Player B: Posts lolking stats. You have a 45% win rate in the jungle, I have over 60%. I am jungling.
Player A: I pick before you, jungle is my best role, I want to jungle.
Player C: Let player B do it.
Player B: You suck at jungle. I am doing it.
Player A: No, I am jungling.
Player B: Who wants to kick this guy?
*Player A kicked from game*
Hypothetical Game 2:
Player A posts bans.
Player B & C: HOLY FUCK YOU DIDN'T BAN SHEN?
Player A: Silent.
Player B: Well, this game is lost. Player A didn't ban Shen, we're fucked. I'm initiating a vote kick because I don't want to play with this asshole.
*Player A kicked from game"
It's a bad idea, because people will absolutely abuse the fuck out of it to punish good players and it wont stop your trolls. They'll only be more savvy.
I haven't seen an honest troll in months.
I agree, but you have to pick a support that you can also "Fuck these guys, time to carry." with. Zyra is my preferred support in solo queue atm for this reason.
I like the changes so far for season 3, even though I got to Bronze 1 to start due to my epic losing streak before the turnover. Will have to see how quick I can level up when I play this with my free time.
If you aren't playing in a team you will be exposed to this, no system put in place will prevent it.
If you want to enjoy your league much more, play in a team. It's that simple, it's the number one step to avoiding ass hats.
Have you seen Lux's? Giant lightning bolt she shoots out. PEWPEW
Also I feel like Garen's Q animation is a lot faster now with the Steel Legion skin
Ranked games have been some of the most fun I've had in months. Everyone seems to be playing more competitively than before patch. Hardly any dodges. Got my 100 points: Rank up series goes 1 hard fought loss, 1 hard fought win where I dominate on Lux (New skin so good!) and then in the tiebreaker match we lose in 20 minutes 4-25 and i was 3-4, rest of the team literally 1-21.
Sad story. (PS: hai)
Now this explains things a bit better. However, in each of your Hypothetical games you could have Player D, or Player E, who says, nah man, I am not gunna kick him just because he did not ban Shen, that would be stupid and trollish.
Our current games run like this:
Player A: Mid or I feed.
Player B: ....
Player C: ....
Player
Player E: ....
Player E has dodged.
New Group,
Player A: Hey guys, still mid or I feed.
Everyone: ....
Ezreal
Nunu
Taric
Not because they're good, but because they're becoming dull routine.
nunu has been nerfnerf'd and you won't be seeing him nearly as much.
the only time i've seen a taric ban has been a target ban against me with another group i was playing an in house with.
fear the pink fuzzy boots. fear them.
Joe's Stream.
Thanks everyone who watched the stream! Hopefully it was entertaining. I'll do more streams like this as I rise/fall in Divisions.
Once I edit these vids I'll post them in the forum too in case people want to check them out.
Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
*On average. Your ELO can be outside those ranges but when it is, you gain more league points for wins and lose less for losses, accelerating your trip to gold (or silver division 4)
edit: And you may need 1600 ELO to get into gold 5 too. Because the system is skeptical about upping divisions and is awarding lower LP to wins in division 1.
That means you were a positive force in the community. Nice
Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
Really enjoyed watching your stream. I love your constant commentary, very easy to listen to.
Look forward to seeing more!
I thought that last game was a fitting conclusion to your placement matches
I actually think they did a good job of choosing the nerf to Nunu.. Bloodboil was a bit too strong (I do miss the movement speed for my jungle, but they added 5 base which also helps and has really helped me get my snowball started.). They only nerfed his support Max Bloodboil be a soak role, and helped his jungle a bit.. I've been having a blast going AP Yeti and owning fools.. Mejai's with a RoA is a silly amount of snowball, and with Nunu's highest health in game end game... Some good, even without too much tanky (but why wouldn't you go tanky?)
Haha thanks! Yeah I was bummed at first because I really wanted annie in all 10 placement matches but I agree that it was fitting that I had to go up against her for the final match.
I made some really bad plays early on though (got too overzealous) but luckily Zed is really good at taking out a single target and I was able to bring that advantage into the other lanes a bit.
Our Singed got good jungle support top as well and I got a bit of gank help too, our Skarner did some good work, and it let our Graves and Singed also snowball.
Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
And all it took was keeping up my policy of not talking to anyone in chat ever!
i'm frigging quick with the mute button, only say positive things in chat, sometimes things like "taric use your ult when we're hitting this tower", but i don't engage the trolls, i mute them.
Joe's Stream.
And still had 3k at the end of the game.
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