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Seriously considering looking for a job in Europe...questions
GnomeTank
What the what?Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
What the what?Portland, OregonRegistered User regular
This isn't some political thing or anything, I've just always wanted to live abroad, at least for a few years, and I figure I'm at a perfect point in my career. I have 13 years of experience, seven of which are all senior/lead development, and from what I understand, many European countries (especially Germany, the one I am most interested in), are always looking to bring in top IT talent.
Assuming I can find a job and obtain a work visa (I've already started looking in to this), what else do I need to know? How do taxes work in an expat situation like this? Do I actually pay both American and German taxes, or will I get a rebate from one or the other? What if I decide to hold dual citizenship (I won't ever renounce my American citizenship, just not happening)?
If I do decide to go the German route, how good should my German be before I go? Am I going to get by on shaky German while I learn it, or should I focus heavily on becoming conversational before I go? How do things like credit score and renters history transfer? If I move there, and it's all a different system, will I have a hard time getting in to a nice place to live since I'd have no German financial history? How much money should I have in savings before I even consider it? Can I expect my wages and general living expenses to generally be what I have here in a major American city?
I know we have a few expats here, so I'd love to hear just your general stories of moving and living abroad.
Assuming I can find a job and obtain a work visa (I've already started looking in to this), what else do I need to know? How do taxes work in an expat situation like this? Do I actually pay both American and German taxes, or will I get a rebate from one or the other? What if I decide to hold dual citizenship (I won't ever renounce my American citizenship, just not happening)?
If I do decide to go the German route, how good should my German be before I go? Am I going to get by on shaky German while I learn it, or should I focus heavily on becoming conversational before I go? How do things like credit score and renters history transfer? If I move there, and it's all a different system, will I have a hard time getting in to a nice place to live since I'd have no German financial history? How much money should I have in savings before I even consider it? Can I expect my wages and general living expenses to generally be what I have here in a major American city?
I know we have a few expats here, so I'd love to hear just your general stories of moving and living abroad.
Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh SFV: BrainlingOh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
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If you're in a large city, you can get by with minimal german, for years if necessary. I would advise doing some immersion courses once you arrive but there's no real need to learn more than the very basics before you get there, people won't speak as much English as in Scandinavia but most will have a smattering. That said, you might find it more comfortable if you do a course or two before hand, and it will help you settle in quicker. There's a lot of stuff where having a decent level of german will make things much, much easier to deal with.
I believe you can arrive in germany and then look for work, but I would advise trying to get a position before you go. The company will then probably help you with things like finding an apartment, and you will have someone to ask about the niceties like setting up electricity and internet connections, etc. It's actually easier to get a work visa when you're already in the country; you have a three-month window to deal with all the paperwork and provided you have a job lined up this shouldn't be a problem. Your visa will cover the length of your job contract and if you get a contract extension you will need to also extend your visa.
Credit score means nothing outside the US, and renters history also isn't going to help you much. You should ideally probably have references, but they will carry more weight if they're from Germans. It's fairly easy to rent an apartment in germany, since most of them are private lets, and it depends much more on the landlord liking you than anything else. And having a job of course! That said, the rental contract will be very precise and will be expected to be absolutely adhered to, and it will be in German. So you will need someone to help you go through it before you sign anything, and make sure you have a good grasp of what it entails. This goes for every legally binding contract you sign in germany; there is no wiggle room and they have no patience for foreigners who didn't understand what they were signing. Also, terms and conditions of the contracts can be tilted away from the customer quite severely. Cell phone and internet are the things to watch out for - eg if you can't transfer your internet connection to the next person who rents your house, you will be forced to pay out the contract regardless of whether you're leaving the country. Similar issues with cell phones, although you CAN get pay-as-you-go arrangements for the latter at least.
You may find it a bit of a pain to get a bank account, but as mentioned, if you have a job when you arrive this will make things easier. There can be a bit of a catch-22 involved, where the bank won't give you an account without a visa and the city won't give you a visa without an account. If you're working for a large company with experience employing foreigners, these problems will be streamlined and you won't have any issues.
I found living costs in germany to be extremely cheap, but I'm from australia where our food and accommodation costs are relatively high. I think you won't be alarmed by either rent or food prices, let's put it that way. HOWEVER, salaries tend to be MUCH LOWER than in the US. It depends a bit on the industry, but you may need to spend some time looking at typical salaries for your type of job and experience level, so as not to be surprised and to know how to negotiate if you're in talks with a firm. For the locals, this lower salary level is balanced out by free healthcare and many other social benefits. Foreigners, however, are not entitled to the state healthcare system and will need to go for private health insurance. This will cost you around 60-80 euro a month, however will cover almost everything.
I would have at least a few thousand in savings before you leave. Enough to cover living costs while you find a place, the deposit for when you get a place, and possibly some basic furnishing (oh, it will be almost impossible to find a furnished apartment in germany. You will be expected to outfit it yourself, right down to the light fittings. If you are lucky enough to find a place with a kitchen (ie stove, fridge, etc) this is a real bonus because otherwise you'll have to buy everything yourself).
So, hopefully that's a little bit helpful for you!
Like Tynic said, you have better chances at renting an apartment if you hold a job, but you will most likely not be required to account for your financial history. Germans don't like talking about financial matters and many people consider it rude to ask someone about their salary. However, you will always be required to pay a deposit.
Holding dual citizenship is possible in theory, but there are a lot of legal and bureaucratical hurdles. I wouldn't worry about it at this stage.
Firstly, IANAL or accountant so please take my advice with a grain of salt. This is simply my experiences from living and working in the IT industry as an American expat in the Asia for the past 7 years.
You will need to pay your US Federal taxes as an US citizen living abroad. You may also be required to pay your state taxes, depending on your state and how they define non-resident status. Depending on if your country has a tax treaty with the US (which is pretty much guaranteed for any country in Europe), there is a very good chance that you will not be double taxed on your income. This usually means that you'll receive a tax credit for any taxes you've already paid in your resident country when you file your US taxes. Again, there are a ton of technicalities depending on the country you live in and you'll definitely need to hire a tax professional. Also, based on the actual time spent abroad, you may be eligible for the Foreign Earn Income Exclusion credit where you receive a tax credit up to $90K USD each year. Finally, the US has been cracking down on foreign holdings so you should file an FBAR with your taxes if you have more than $10K total in your foreign financial accounts. You will be liable for your US taxes as long as you hold your US citizenship, even if you get dual citizenship for another country. Finally, expats receive an automatic 1 month extension for filing their Federal taxes, but I think any payments have to be sent by the original deadline.
As others have stated, your credit score and renter's history will be pretty much useless outside the US. If anything, you'll be seen as a bigger liability or a flight risk for most institutions because of your foreigner status. You will probably need a sponsor to back you for a lot of financial transactions, which shouldn't be too difficult if you have a company to back your work visa. Things will change based on your visa status and you should look into ways of upgrading your work visa to a less restrictive visa once you've established yourself in your host country. Be aware that with a work visa, your residence status will likely be dependent on you maintaining employment with your sponsor. Also take time to familiarize yourself with the local laws and customs. Hopefully you'll never end up in a situation that requires the local justice system, but be aware that things you may take for granted in the US can be very different in your host country, and ignorance of local laws won't cut it. Most of rest of the World including Western Europe operates on a Civil Law system which might seem different coming from the Common Law system prevalent in the US.
Also look into finding an online expat community for your specific country. Getting involved with the local expat community IN ADDITION to immersing yourself with the local culture can be a deeply rewarding experience. Another thing to consider is to travel as much as possible when you're abroad. The one thing I've realized after moving overseas is how small and connected the rest of the World is. Make a genuine effort to become a member of your adopted community. Always remember that you're an ambassador for the US and your actions reflect on our home regardless of if it's fair or not. It might seem like a lot of hassles to live abroad, but it's well worth the effort.
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Specifically, given your qualification, look into something called the blue card program. I'm not 100% on the details as it applies to you, but the gist is, if you get a job paying over 45,000 euros a year, you can compete with Germans and other Europeans in taking the job and you'll get an unrestricted visa.
Also three things.
1.The German work culture is very different from the American one. Do some googling on that and prepare yourself for it.
2. About German beaurocracy. It's huge, everywhere, and some people find it very frustrating. I personally haven't had a problem. The systems seem transparent and, as long as you have all your documents in order, it works like a well oiled machine. I'm also living in a smallish city and I speak German so YMMV (I've heard Cologne, Frankfurt, and Berlin can be a pain).
3. Drivers licenses. Your license, if you have one, will be good for 6 months. After the 6 months you will need to exchange it for a German license. Depending on the state you're from, it's a simple matter of filling out a form to having ot take both the theoretical and practical exam. This is a difference of 80 euros and 500. Look up the regulations for your state. If you're Canadian, then huurah, you can just change your license no problem.
If you have any specific questions, let me know, I'll be happy to answer them.
Regarding Germany specifically, I am given to understand that job applications there are extremely formalized and complex, you will want be well researched and prepared on it.
You could avoid much of this by moving to say Ireland, where there is massive IT demand, but I understand that would not be your preference.
It's actually 46400€, but there are exceptions for some engineering and IT professions where you can qualify with a lower salary. No idea how those work, though. You also need a university degree to qualify for the EU Blue Card.
There's also this website, which may contain some useful information.
Not sure where you're getting this from.
So less than 1/4 the cost with 100x's the coverage? Where the fuck do I sign up?
Awesome post btw.
Although with the budget being up in the air, and other constraints I know some of those positions are dissolving. Also you would need to get a clearance for most of them.
I would say the majority of apartments aren't private lets, they are at least managed by a professional. I'd go as far and say that finding a private landlord in Berlin is practically impossible. If you do have a job then finding an apartment should be no problem, though. Without a job you can get by with sublets or flat shares.
Living cost definitely depends on which part of Germany you go to. Food is probably more expensive than in the US (based on my limited experience). Rent varies wildly (e.g. Munich is at least twice as expensive as Berlin).
You will have to pay German income tax, I don't know how that works with your US tax.
I actually thought that you have to be in the state health care system when you have a job here even as a foreigner. I guess tynic is right if she worked here and they wouldn't let her in.
You have to have german health insurance to get a visa, but work visa holders don't qualify for the state program. There are companies that specialise in health insurance for foreigners, which is usually the easiest way to go.
The Ireland thing actually intrigues me a little. It seems a tad easier to immigrate to, but as an EU country, would seem to make possibly immigrating to another EU country easier in the future.
Again, I want to re-iterate this is not a political thing for me. It's simply a "Man, it sure would be cool to live and work in Europe for a couple of years, even if just to say I did". Getting myself out of my comfort zone basically. So Ireland is certainly not off the map.
First, and especially if you don't know much German, try to leave the US with a position ready. If you are a qualified worker you should have no problem finding an environment in which you can function in English for the time being. And I heard that navigating the German job market and its associated bureaucracy without knowing German is quite problematic.
I do recommend not sleeping on your German. Basic stuff is not hard, like ordering pizza, going shopping, asking for directions...but I find the learning curve towards being really able to have a halfway decent conversation surprisingly steep. Employers will also appreciate you learning the language, so getting a low-level official title may win their hearts.
I found that out in the street there is fewer people that speak English than I thought. I am in a small town, so maybe in larger cities it will be easier. But here my initial paperwork had to be done in German, and the paperwork guys (functionaries?) didn't speak a word of English.
I can't tell you about the taxes, because being European I suppose there are a ton of agreements and whatnot, but I do know a couple of Americans here, so I can shoot them an e-mail if you give me some specific questions, feel free to PM me. I do know that while you are in Germany you need health coverage of some sort, the system I had to use was: I chose a health insurance provider when doing my contract and now some of my salary goes to them in exchange for the minimum State-required coverage, you can upgrade this coverage by talking to the insurance provider.
Renting. I had no problem with renting an appartment from my home country once I actually found one. Be ready to use some google translate, though, contracts are long and in German. In my particular case, however, the landlords are pretty nice people who live in another city, so we mostly stay out each other's way. I have never seen them, actually, there was this guy that I met my second day there who gave me my key and wrote down the damage in the appartment and that was it.
About living costs. I find them cheap in comparison with the money I receive, and my American friends seem to think the same way, so I guess you should have no problem with that. Disclaimer: I am a technically a student and living on the cheap. So my main expenses are food, beer and videogames. It is possible that quality stuff gets pretty expensive (especially if you want to have a car), but if you find yourself in trouble it IS easy to live cheaply.
And I think that is all, hope this helps. What I can say overall is that I have found German people to be really polite and willing to help a clueless foreigner. Most of the other foreign people I have met here think likewise. So I think that you will be fine.
So I checked with my brother-in-law, who is a Canadian in Germany. He is in the state health care and was even in it when he didn't have a job. Were you employed as a full-time regular or freelancer/contractor/something like this? Because in the latter case even Germans don't necessarily have a right to state health care. Could also be that his status was somehow different, being married to a German and all.
I guess GnomeTank should just marry a German, then, it makes stuff way easier (also you have someone to translate your contracts for you).
It is a good plan. @Melinoe is an American of French parentage with French citizenship and the plan is to get married, get me citizenship, wander around the EU for a bit in a few years when our careers will make the both of us highly mobile.
Assuming you have your visa all sorted etc and your permanent residence is now Germany, then your tax situation will be entirely German. Why would you pay American taxes for work carried out in an entirely different country?
I was on a state-sponsored academic stipendium, not sure how that affected my status. But yeah, there is a difference if you're married to a german, so that could be it. I looked up the regulations once but I forget the specific wording.
The US government does not let go of its citizens that easily. I know people who have been out of the country for twenty years, or their whole lives, who have suddenly received demanding tax invoices from the IRS.
A friend of mine is American and has been living in Germany for the past 10+ years. He recently mentioned the IRS getting in contact with him regarding taxes. I don't know the specifics, but it basically boils down to the bolded part above.
As for the OP - the American consulate (in Frankfurt I think) or the American embassy in Berlin should be able to give you info on the tax thing. Maybe even the IRS themselves.
Other than that - come over to Germany, it is lovely here, even with the giant bureaucracy and all the rules and regulations. I have no idea about living costs in comparison, as I have never been to the US, but I don't find them particularly high compared to my salary here.
I am German - so feel free to hit me up with a PM if you want to know anything more.
The impression I got from German people I know, certainly in comparison to the way things work in Ireland. But I'm sure the people actually living in Germany will know best. I would echo the advice to find work before moving for sure.
Yeah, that was my impression, which is why I thought you might prefer a non-english speaking country. Ireland/UK might be a little bit too familiar. But yeah, getting a job in Ireland would be easy, a lot of American IT firms have their European headquarters in Dublin, and not enough skilled people being trained here. I'm sure if you got a job a multinational they would be able to give you all the info regarding US taxes etc.
http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/U.S.-Citizens-and-Resident-Aliens-Abroad
Doesn't seem like there's any deductible or exempt income from that either, that's fucking balls.
EDIT: Okay nevermind, looks like a married couple has $186,600 exempt while living abroad full time for a minimum of year. That's still fucking bullshit because if we're making more than that (not out of the realm of possibility in a few years) we'll be paying taxes in two countries instead of setting it aside to buy a house and start a family when we get back. Why the hell would the US set it up this way? Tempting to renounce my citizenship to live in the EU but Silicon Valley's here.
http://www.taxmeless.com/page4.html
Ours is a nice simple if you aren't currently a UK resident you don't owe anything unless it was earned in the UK.
My mother was born in Germany
Ah well maybe you've got a shot then. Wiki page seems quite practically useful here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law