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[D&D 4e+GW Discussion] Don't worry ladies, I'm only Slowed in the good ways.

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  • ToxTox I kill threads he/himRegistered User regular
    edited August 2014
    @Am0n best advice I can give you is to check out the Char-Op forums.

    They get a bad rep, there's actually a lot of really in-depth analysis of how the different classes stack up against each other.

    Tox on
    MsAnthropy
  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    am0n wrote: »
    Okay, so I have to be missing something. I've been reading about Fighter. In particular, I thought Battlemind looked kind of promising for being sticky (if they shift, you can follow and your defender feature is to deal equal damage to the enemy that they deal for ignoring your mark, so either they attack you, or you get an OA + mirror the damage they deal to them). However, people keep saying Fighter is stickier because they can make sure the enemy never gets away from them to begin. How is this? Combat Superiority only stops movement from an OA, which Combat Challenge is not. Is there something else that can prevent them from shifting away from you? Or is it just powers? I notice some Encounters that prevent them from shifting, so moving means I get an OA and chance to stop them. There is also Weapon Master Strike with a Spear that makes shifting an OA, so if they shift you'd get TWO attacks and a chance to stop them. Is this what they mean by the Fighter being stickier?

    To me, at least, they seem pretty similar... with Battlemind, the creature can shift away (assuming only a Shift 1), but you can follow right behind and put on the pain if they don't attack you.

    Fighters are not inherently ultra-sticky. They have the potential to become the very stickiest (and best) defenders through weapon choices, feats, powers, and magic items.

    The fighter's Combat Superiority is, yes, an extremely good inherent stickiness power - they don't want to try to move away because the risk of getting whacked means not only damage but an end to their movement. That means they are risking wasting an entire action and taking damage. This is pretty much hard control, to keep them glued to you.

    Combat Challenge, without feats/weapons/items, is just soft control. They don't particularly want to take the damage from shifting away or attacking someone else while in range, and the mark on top of that giving them -2 to hit further discourages it, but you're not actually preventing them from attacking other people.

    Combat Challenge is one of the easiest things to improve with feats and items, though. For example, I made a fighter who used a trident (which counts as a spear) and heavy shield, along with Shield Push, which pushes the enemy one square after you deal your damage with a combat challenge attack while wielding a shield. That means, since Combat Challenges are an interrupt, if you shove the enemy out of range for their attack, their attack fails, and the action is wasted.

    But that doesn't stop them from shifting away! And it pushes them away from me! So I added on Battering Shield (+1 distance if you push or slide an enemy with a melee attack while wielding a shield). That's quite a push, sure, but the real key is adding the feat Polearm Momentum (if you push or slide an enemy 2 or more spaces while wielding a spear or polearm, they are knocked prone). Now, my Combat Challenge attack pushes an enemy 2 spaces and knocks them prone, spoiling their attack OR their movement action. They have to use their other action to get up, and end their turn, or flail at whatever they can reach while on the ground.

    Throw in Defensive Mobility and you can shift one space closer after proning them - meaning they're just one space away, so when they get up, they can't attack you without reach, and they can't charge you either.

    Throw in Swift Spear, and you slide the enemy 1 space to a space adjacent to you on OAs - which combos with Battering Shield to slide them 2 and prone them adjacent to you.

    This also means Tide of Iron or Footwork Lure will always knock an enemy prone when you attack with them, which is a nice bonus. If there's a striker in the party with Headsman's Chop and Gauntlets of Brutality, he's going to love hovering nearby and mutilating whatever unfortunate goons you knock prone.

    There are lots of other Combat Challenge feat combinations (flails do a really good job, in particular, I believe) as well.

    Evil Multifarious on
    Incenjucaram0nMsAnthropy
  • Evil MultifariousEvil Multifarious Registered User regular
    (also pls note that the fighter was a minotaur reskinned as an enormous, outcast satyr who was terrible at music, and he wielded a trident and shield in the Greek style, and he was called Gorrim the Tuneless, and Greek accents are surprisingly difficult)

    Glazius
  • am0nam0n Registered User regular
    Tox wrote: »
    @Am0n best advice I can give you is to check out the Char-Op forums.

    They get a bad rep, there's actually a lot of really in-depth analysis of how the different classes stack up against each other.

    Yeah, I read up there a bit, which is where I am seeing people make statements like "if you don't have this you are bad" without anything backing it up. I usually start there, not because I follow it, but because they may be able to narrow down all the stuff into a more manageable bit for me to work with when building a character.
    Combat Challenge is one of the easiest things to improve with feats and items, though. For example, I made a fighter who used a trident (which counts as a spear) and heavy shield, along with Shield Push, which pushes the enemy one square after you deal your damage with a combat challenge attack while wielding a shield. That means, since Combat Challenges are an interrupt, if you shove the enemy out of range for their attack, their attack fails, and the action is wasted.

    But that doesn't stop them from shifting away! And it pushes them away from me! So I added on Battering Shield (+1 distance if you push or slide an enemy with a melee attack while wielding a shield). That's quite a push, sure, but the real key is adding the feat Polearm Momentum (if you push or slide an enemy 2 or more spaces while wielding a spear or polearm, they are knocked prone). Now, my Combat Challenge attack pushes an enemy 2 spaces and knocks them prone, spoiling their attack OR their movement action. They have to use their other action to get up, and end their turn, or flail at whatever they can reach while on the ground.

    Throw in Defensive Mobility and you can shift one space closer after proning them - meaning they're just one space away, so when they get up, they can't attack you without reach, and they can't charge you either.

    Throw in Swift Spear, and you slide the enemy 1 space to a space adjacent to you on OAs - which combos with Battering Shield to slide them 2 and prone them adjacent to you.

    This also means Tide of Iron or Footwork Lure will always knock an enemy prone when you attack with them, which is a nice bonus. If there's a striker in the party with Headsman's Chop and Gauntlets of Brutality, he's going to love hovering nearby and mutilating whatever unfortunate goons you knock prone.

    There are lots of other Combat Challenge feat combinations (flails do a really good job, in particular, I believe) as well.

    Awesome post. Probably not optimal, but I was liking the idea of a Heavy Shield + Javelin (Kind of Spartan-esque) for Deft Hurler Cleave (multi-mark chance with damage) + the Master Fighter at-will that turns shifting into a Combat Challenge and OA. I do like what you described with the shield, though. That could really ruin the day for a lot of enemies. The lineup makes Human sound good, with the third at-will. So I'll have to examine race, too.

    My Strikers will be a Thief and a Bard/Sorcerer, so neither of them use Heavy Blades. The Thief will also be knocking prone (and at 21 knocking prone and then shifting 1 away just to screw with enemies). Still need to figure out the Leader and Controller (probably just a Cleric and Mage).

  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    If you've got access to the full list of 4E options, Humans make great Fighters. There are so many excellent At Wills, and that bonus Feat can put you in good position because a lot of builds get really cramped for space.

    Polearm Momentum, which totally works with a javelin, btw, is an excellent way to keep your squishies safe.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • am0nam0n Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    So, not necessarily as good as the lineup above (Shield Push + Battering Shield + Mobile Challenge + Polearm Momentum), but for the effect of prone and 1 sq. away, seems you could also do Mobile Challenge + Staggering Challenge (instead of damage, you knock them prone and then you shift 1 away). But the first combo, while more feat intensive, means your Challenge does damage and you are also upgrading Footwork Lure or Tide of Iron.

    Edit: Tide of Iron seems straight forward with Battering Shield; instead of push 1, it's a push 2 and you shift 1 into the square they were in prior to the push 2. Footwork Lure seems less obvious. You are support to shift 1 and then slide them into the square you left. However, you only shifted 1, so the square you left can't be 2 squares away from where they started, meaning your slide from Footwork Lure really isn't benefited by Battering Shield and hence Polearm Momentum.

    am0n on
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    Footwork Lure + Polearm Momentum only works with an actual polearm, i.e. a weapon with reach. Then you can slide them two squares into your old space as long as you weren't adjacent to them in the first place.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
    MsAnthropy
  • am0nam0n Registered User regular
    Makes sense.

    What important Fighter feats are there that require Con 15 or Con 17? I figured I'd start with an 18/13/14/14 Str/Con/Dex/Wis (That assumes Human, so a different race would gain an additional +2 somewhere). I know Heavy Shield boosts Ref and with a feat, Will, but I'd also like to not have total crap for defenses. However, I also know surges are important, so trying to figure a good balancing act between Con/Dex/Wis.

  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    Honestly, Fighters get so many surges you don't really need to worry that much about Con. If it becomes an issue, Durability bridges the gap between 10 and 14 Con on it's own.

    I can't recommend enough the 16/16/16 Str/Dex/Wis build for a spear fighter. Str to hit, Dex for spear feats and Wis for Combat Superiority/Polearm Momentum.

    Plus, that loadout gets you access to the Essentials versions of the defense buffing feats, which are really sweet if you can fit them in.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • am0nam0n Registered User regular
    I was figuring a 18/14/14 with Level 4/8 going to Dex/Wis for the 15. So, by 8 I can get Polearm, Level 4 I could do Superior Will, etc. I think the 18 is just a preference, as I really dislike missing and the Spear is already a hit since it's a +2 versus a longsword at +3.

    I mean, level 1 with a 16 Str would put me at a +6 (+3 Str, +1 One Hand Talent, +2 Prof) versus an average 15 AC, so I'd hit on a 9, which still isn't terrible. I'll have to look at the feat lineup. If I have enough other options to easily fill it in until level 8, probably no reason to rush it.

    Plus, as we discussed, you can't do a 16/16/16 with a Human (which still isn't set in stone). Best you can do is a 16/16/15 with an 11 in Con.

  • Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    Funny that battlemind came up, as that's what the tanking-type character in the game I run is, and we've run into exactly that issue: she's kind of bad at actually sticking to dudes and keep them away from the squishy characters. Is there a good way to make her better at that? Her role right now seems to marking dudes, and then getting ignored, because she can't stop them from just going somewhere else to beat on guys, and her mind spike thing just isn't a strong enough deterrent.

  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    You're going to notice a +1 to hit once every three combats give or take. You're going to notice being stunned/dazed/immobilized/whatever by NADS targeting attacks much more often. You can still do your job if you miss, you can't if you're dazed.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • am0nam0n Registered User regular
    But you do your job better if you hit. ;)

    But you are right and I'll consider it more closely.

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    I know exactly how Fighters work. I've played several of them They are, by far, the stickiest class in the game.

    Battleminds are, conversely, the least sticky. They have basically no way of keeping their targets from moving around however they want. They make up for this with some pretty great controller effects and the ability to teleport after the bad guys like DarkPrimus is describing.

    From a "hold them down while I beat on them" perspective, Battleminds are barely Defenders at all in my opinion. They are much better close range controllers.

    There is a 3rd level At-Will the Battlemind can get from Psionic Power called Lodestone Lure that is super-sticky.

    Unaugmented it only does Con mod damage, but you pull the target 1 square towards you and until the end of your next turn, the target can only move to squares that are adjacent to you.

    Augment 1 makes it Range 5 and pull 4 squares.


    *checks Compendium*

    Oh, they errata'd it so all instances of "pull the target" are "must pull the target". So it was too sticky. Does that mean you can't use it on a creature already adjacent to you, or can you pull a creature to another adjacent square? We don't run into "must perform X forced movement" much, do we?

    usnTyq4.jpg
    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    I know exactly how Fighters work. I've played several of them They are, by far, the stickiest class in the game.

    Battleminds are, conversely, the least sticky. They have basically no way of keeping their targets from moving around however they want. They make up for this with some pretty great controller effects and the ability to teleport after the bad guys like DarkPrimus is describing.

    From a "hold them down while I beat on them" perspective, Battleminds are barely Defenders at all in my opinion. They are much better close range controllers.

    There is a 3rd level At-Will the Battlemind can get from Psionic Power called Lodestone Lure that is super-sticky.

    Unaugmented it only does Con mod damage, but you pull the target 1 square towards you and until the end of your next turn, the target can only move to squares that are adjacent to you.

    Augment 1 makes it Range 5 and pull 4 squares.


    *checks Compendium*

    Oh, they errata'd it so all instances of "pull the target" are "must pull the target". So it was too sticky. Does that mean you can't use it on a creature already adjacent to you, or can you pull a creature to another adjacent square? We don't run into "must perform X forced movement" much, do we?

    That is a really weird wording because last time I checked, in all cases of forced movement you can move it less. So Pull 3 is actually saying Pull 0, 1, 2, or 3.

    At a guess, this is to prevent using the ranged version, pulling 0 and making it so the person has no legal squares to move to. Still really horrible wording.

    Nod. Get treat. PSN: Quippish
  • am0nam0n Registered User regular
    If I was DM'ing that, I'd interpret it as If they move, they must end that movement in a square adjacent to you. Maybe even make it a 'semi charge' where each square must bring them closer to you kind of thing. I think the intent of that power is to force them into staying next to you or getting closer to you, not being abused and forcing them to stand still.

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    I think they errata'd it because they don't want you to be using the power if the enemy is already standing adjacent to you?

    The power never prevented them from not moving, it just restricted their movement to squares adjacent to you.

    usnTyq4.jpg
    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
  • am0nam0n Registered User regular
    I think what he was saying is for 1 PP it had a range 5, which meant if you chose to NOT pull them, they'd be 5 squares away from you. And since the wording said they can only move to squares adjacent to you, that some may interpret that as they have to stand still, since none of the squares they can immediately move to are also adjacent to you.

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    am0n wrote: »
    I think what he was saying is for 1 PP it had a range 5, which meant if you chose to NOT pull them, they'd be 5 squares away from you. And since the wording said they can only move to squares adjacent to you, that some may interpret that as they have to stand still, since none of the squares they can immediately move to are also adjacent to you.

    No, the power also says that you pull them 4 squares, and is errata'd to say "must pull 4 squares".

    usnTyq4.jpg
    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Oh I see what you're saying. Right. They want to require you to pull the enemy to a square adjacent to you.

    I never even thought of that because I understood the intent of the power, to keep them locked up next to you.

    Fucking semantics-lawyering munchkins.

    DarkPrimus on
    usnTyq4.jpg
    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
    am0n
  • am0nam0n Registered User regular
    Yeah, that's what I am saying. If I was DM'ing that, I'd interpret it as any movement they make must bring them closer to you, or at least they must END their movement in a square adjacent to you. To me, the intent is to force them to either be next to you, or force them to only be able to move towards you. Not lock them into some invalid situation.

  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    I think they errata'd it because they don't want you to be using the power if the enemy is already standing adjacent to you?

    The power never prevented them from not moving, it just restricted their movement to squares adjacent to you.

    Yea, am0n is on to what I was saying.

    I'd make it work exactly like charging, you have options at each square but every time you move that square must be nearer to the Battlemind than the one you're leaving.

    Edit: Considering this, I think I'd use the power exactly as written when you were next to the Battlemind. That still leaves some tactical options while honoring the intent of the powers mechanics and theme.

    DevoutlyApathetic on
    Nod. Get treat. PSN: Quippish
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    I just love that power, okay? I had a harrying battlemind who literally never took a step the entire encounter once, but was always next to an enemy, because every time they moved he teleported next to them and then used that power to keep them next to him.

    usnTyq4.jpg
    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
    Kalnaur
  • DaMoonRulzDaMoonRulz Mare ImbriumRegistered User regular
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  • am0nam0n Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Shame they aren't offering the text for free. I really don't care to listen to someone else talk. =/ I'll probably download them if nothing else than to throw into my vault of D&D stuff.

    Edit: Okay, so how do you download it without having to install some kind of unwanted software? I just want them as an MP3 or something, not attached to some piece of software.

    am0n on
  • Jester313Jester313 Registered User regular
    Guys. I just bought my first set of RP dice. I can't wait to play D&D for the first time ever in a few weeks. It's going to be awesome.

    Denadatastydonutsam0ntzeentchlingDarkPrimusDracomicron
  • tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    Jester313 wrote: »
    Guys. I just bought my first set of RP dice. I can't wait to play D&D for the first time ever in a few weeks. It's going to be awesome.

    Man... I remember my first set of RP dice. Then I got another... and another... and another... nerd rocks are like crack.

    You need a set of dice for each character. Each of them, my friend.

    “I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
    Incenjucaram0n
  • am0nam0n Registered User regular
    My green d20 is exclusively used for my PC. The red, blue and grey are for when I DM and roll monsters. Don't want to waste any of my Green Good Luck on those NPCs!

  • Jester313Jester313 Registered User regular
    You need a set of dice for each character. Each of them, my friend.

    That's exactly what I did! Cobalt/Black Speckled with Silver Numbers for my Paladin of the Raven Queen.

    tastydonuts
  • DracomicronDracomicron Registered User regular
    I hit the jackpot a few weeks back when I found that the gaming store near my DM's place had the Crystal Caste d4s that aren't shaped like caltrops. Since I was about to play a character that used a guisarme (2d4 damage, x3 crits), I bought six of them and removed my old pointy d4s from my dice bag.

    I am so tired of dropping my four-siders on the floor and taking d4 damage when I inevitably step on them later.

  • ToxTox I kill threads he/himRegistered User regular
    I hit the jackpot a few weeks back when I found that the gaming store near my DM's place had the Crystal Caste d4s that aren't shaped like caltrops. Since I was about to play a character that used a guisarme (2d4 damage, x3 crits), I bought six of them and removed my old pointy d4s from my dice bag.

    I am so tired of dropping my four-siders on the floor and taking d4 damage when I inevitably step on them later.

    I've got like a half dozen of those things. Love them.

    Dracomicron
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    My wife got me two sets of those non-uniform dice for my birthday one year. I really love them, with the exception of the d20. That thing just keeps rolling forever.

    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    I hit the jackpot a few weeks back when I found that the gaming store near my DM's place had the Crystal Caste d4s that aren't shaped like caltrops. Since I was about to play a character that used a guisarme (2d4 damage, x3 crits), I bought six of them and removed my old pointy d4s from my dice bag.

    I am so tired of dropping my four-siders on the floor and taking d4 damage when I inevitably step on them later.

    I've never seen non-caltrop d4s. What do they look like?

  • ToxTox I kill threads he/himRegistered User regular
    I hit the jackpot a few weeks back when I found that the gaming store near my DM's place had the Crystal Caste d4s that aren't shaped like caltrops. Since I was about to play a character that used a guisarme (2d4 damage, x3 crits), I bought six of them and removed my old pointy d4s from my dice bag.

    I am so tired of dropping my four-siders on the floor and taking d4 damage when I inevitably step on them later.

    I've never seen non-caltrop d4s. What do they look like?

    D12s, with each number repeated 3 times. Mine are all roman numerals

  • anathosanathos Registered User regular
    I hit the jackpot a few weeks back when I found that the gaming store near my DM's place had the Crystal Caste d4s that aren't shaped like caltrops. Since I was about to play a character that used a guisarme (2d4 damage, x3 crits), I bought six of them and removed my old pointy d4s from my dice bag.

    I am so tired of dropping my four-siders on the floor and taking d4 damage when I inevitably step on them later.

    I've never seen non-caltrop d4s. What do they look like?

    Elongated d6s, so that it can only roll on one axis.

    Dracomicron
  • GlaziusGlazius Registered User regular
    Tox wrote: »
    I hit the jackpot a few weeks back when I found that the gaming store near my DM's place had the Crystal Caste d4s that aren't shaped like caltrops. Since I was about to play a character that used a guisarme (2d4 damage, x3 crits), I bought six of them and removed my old pointy d4s from my dice bag.

    I am so tired of dropping my four-siders on the floor and taking d4 damage when I inevitably step on them later.

    I've never seen non-caltrop d4s. What do they look like?

    D12s, with each number repeated 3 times. Mine are all roman numerals

    They can also look...

    a-like-a-this-a.

    Dracomicron
  • Vincent GraysonVincent Grayson Frederick, MDRegistered User regular
    Freaky. I should get some of those.

  • am0nam0n Registered User regular
    Not sure I'd buy any for anything other than the d4, but I'd definitely be happy to get rid of my regular d4s. They just roll so bad.

    * And by roll, I mean they don't. They just fall flat.

    Dracomicron
  • tastydonutstastydonuts Registered User regular
    am0n wrote: »
    Not sure I'd buy any for anything other than the d4, but I'd definitely be happy to get rid of my regular d4s. They just roll so bad.

    * And by roll, I mean they don't. They just fall flat.

    *instant rimshot?* :P

    I like the old fashioned d4s better. Those just seem weird to me.

    “I used to draw, hard to admit that I used to draw...”
  • am0nam0n Registered User regular
    Looking for some suggestions.

    I am wanting to make a Leader. Originally, I thought I wanted a Cleric. My reasoning was a Wisdom based character is all that was missing from the group. I also heard they are good about healing. I'd like them to be melee, though, as I already have two ranged characters and it'd be nice to have another body to flank with the Rogue while the Fighter is off taunting everyone. Looking at the power choices, though, it seems like a Wisdom Cleric shines more as a ranged character and most of the good melee powers are Strength based.

    So, question one, am I wrong and a melee Wisdom Cleric as strong as a Strength based one?

    Question two, I may not really care about the Leader being Wisdom based (the Thief has a 16 starting Wisdom and training in Insight, Perception, Dungeoneering and by Level 2 Nature), so is there a better choice than a Strength Cleric as a solid melee leader? I'd rather not a lazy lord, but if there is a more interesting Warlord build, that could be an option. Artificer sounds interesting (and I like their built in surge sharing mechanism), but I'm not familiar enough to know how they are in melee. Overall, I guess I am looking for a melee leader that is sturdy enough to survive while still bringing a good amount of healing and party buffs to the table. I saw someone play a Battle Lore Cleric and it seemed to fit that bill, but I think he was also trying to Wis/Str at the same time. I guess in my mind I also leaned toward Cleric due to "standard" fare type of healer + having someone in the group who is a more divine type (rest of the party is a Thief, Fighter, Bard-Sorcerer and Mage).

    Truth is, I know very little about leaders in general, so trying to use the threads collective knowledge to help me narrow down to a couple of builds that might fit what I am looking for and do so well. I also realize I may have given little useful information as to what I am looking for. I play strikers usually. :(

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