Funny thing about the Zed game is not only did I dominate kills, but I had like 250 CS when the next closest on the map was I think 190. I love that about Zed, that he wave clears like a boss even though he's an assassin.
Kat, Fizz, and KZ say hi.
I should've been more specific in that I meant I love how easily Zed can wave clear from a safe distance, which really doesn't apply to Katarina, Fizz, or KZ pre 6 when he evolves his spikes. Zed can clear the entire wave easily with his shadow, one Q and one or two Es without ever being in danger of retaliation. Most assassins have to play more carefully pre 6 than he does, which is more the point I was trying to make.
the thing with alot of the assassins is that they need to melee to last hit to be able to get to the items and level required to be able to minion clear quickly.
Any smart ap mid will harass you out of lane so that you're behind.
Zed doesn't. He can last hit pretty easily with all his abilities if necessary.
Actually Kat can as well but has a little more difficulty than Zed.
but he can't.
you're either using energy to farm or energy to harass. you cannot do both, at least not to any effect early on.
Someone like lux or oriana do not have those restrictions and outrange you.
given the same skill level, the zed will get zoned and forced to go in for a kill.
at least that has been my experience.
Then you have not fought against decent Zeds sorry to say. You can farm and harass with your energy without limiting yourself much at all. If you use your energy to harass you can get the low enough that they won't want to try and move in on you. If you use it to farm you can do so at a safe distance. If you are clever you can farm and harass at the same time with your shadow clone and E.
If they are close enough to auto attack me they will eat harass easily. If they are using their skills to try and harass me they are running out of mana (something Zed doesn't worry about)
The pressure from your harass cannot be discounted especially since you can land it easily and at range. I can even sit on the creeps if necessary to last hit and use my energy to harass because of that pressure, and if they have pressure of their own I can play defensively and just farm and when I'm ready I can go full in and blow them up.
It's funny you use Lux as an example because I used to main her and I love picking Zed into that matchup because of how easy the matchup is for him.
And when you say "Assuming equal skill" it means that the Zed isn't an idiot either. If both are equal skill it means that Zed is going to be able to both harass and farm just as well as Lux can and his kit very much lets him do that.
As opposed to say an actual melee centric champion who relies primarily on auto attacks to farm, of which Zed is most certainly not.
I still disagree but w/e, if you can make zed work for you 100% of the time against standard mids then all the more power to you.
It's why you see him so often in Mid. He does very well in Mid and Top. His jungle is kinda of meh, but a good Zed can make it work. I don't personally like it though.
Delphinidaes on
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You guys made me get Nautilus. I haven't tried him as a support yet, but I fucking love him in the jungle. I've been running Ar Quints/AS Reds etc. and my 0/9/21 Jungle Nunu page. I'd heard his clear was bad in S3, but after all the jungle tweaks I think it's definitely above average. Spirit Stone, Mobo boots, Ruby Sightstone, Aegis, roll over mans? Anything else?
I'm thinking of maybe playing ranked again. But only play lux forever. (Support, mid, top, cant figure out a decent jungle lux or adc lux but ohwell).
AD carry Lux actually works surprisingly well, thanks to her passive and general utility. In terms of alternative AD carries she's not as good as, say, Ahri or Orianna (and certainly not Kennen), but she can definitely fill the role.
Problem is playing ADC or Jungle lux while its workable in theory it becomes entirely unworkable when convincing your team that you arnt trolling and going to 'cause' them to lose.
Mid and support sees fair amount of lux play and most people know about Siv's meyham with lux top.
I wonder if with the release of Quinn we are going to start seeing dueling ranged ADs / APs top that can handle laning against the melee bruisers and then the bruisers going bottom to dunk the euro lane, eventually turning into double bruiser kill lanes like in the good old days.
Suddenly the early game giants that are bruisers are taking part in the important early game objectives like they have always really wanted while the guys that just want to farm until late game (ADCs) can sit in their little island paradise that is top lane.
I wonder if with the release of Quinn we are going to start seeing dueling ranged ADs / APs top that can handle laning against the melee bruisers and then the bruisers going bottom to dunk the euro lane, eventually turning into double bruiser kill lanes like in the good old days.
Aren't we already seeing this, to an extent? I'm certainly encountering a fair few people running Vayne, Cait and Graves top.
The only thing that makes me sad about the possibility of double-bruiser bot is that if it becomes too popular it might kill off the type of mage-y support that I prefer. You want Janna, Sona or Zyra? lolno, pick a CC tank or get out of bot lane.
So I calmed down a little, remembered it was a game I ostensibly play for fun, logged back in, and decided to give it another try. Starts off and there's confusion about where people are going, I figure I'll go Diana so I can be mid, top-ish, or jungle if need be. Jungle it is.
Team started fighting, so I decided to be the calm voice of reason and say "Hey guys, don't fight, just focus and kill them. I'm super fed now(I was at, like, 8/2 at this point) and we're even in kills, just stay in team-fights and go. I'll get the carries"
The result? Vayne stood at the fountain for 5 minutes typing to Taric and refusing to play, Oriana would spam "reported reported reported" any time she was near a kill or saved from dying and then join Vayne on the fountain refusing to play for a minute before going off on her own and repeating the whole situation, and Taric was yelling at Vayne for being "A fukkin 10 year old"
Funny thing about the Zed game is not only did I dominate kills, but I had like 250 CS when the next closest on the map was I think 190. I love that about Zed, that he wave clears like a boss even though he's an assassin.
Kat, Fizz, and KZ say hi.
I should've been more specific in that I meant I love how easily Zed can wave clear from a safe distance, which really doesn't apply to Katarina, Fizz, or KZ pre 6 when he evolves his spikes. Zed can clear the entire wave easily with his shadow, one Q and one or two Es without ever being in danger of retaliation. Most assassins have to play more carefully pre 6 than he does, which is more the point I was trying to make.
the thing with alot of the assassins is that they need to melee to last hit to be able to get to the items and level required to be able to minion clear quickly.
Any smart ap mid will harass you out of lane so that you're behind.
Zed doesn't. He can last hit pretty easily with all his abilities if necessary.
Actually Kat can as well but has a little more difficulty than Zed.
but he can't.
you're either using energy to farm or energy to harass. you cannot do both, at least not to any effect early on.
Someone like lux or oriana do not have those restrictions and outrange you.
given the same skill level, the zed will get zoned and forced to go in for a kill.
at least that has been my experience.
Then you have not fought against decent Zeds sorry to say. You can farm and harass with your energy without limiting yourself much at all. If you use your energy to harass you can get the low enough that they won't want to try and move in on you. If you use it to farm you can do so at a safe distance. If you are clever you can farm and harass at the same time with your shadow clone and E.
If they are close enough to auto attack me they will eat harass easily. If they are using their skills to try and harass me they are running out of mana (something Zed doesn't worry about)
The pressure from your harass cannot be discounted especially since you can land it easily and at range. I can even sit on the creeps if necessary to last hit and use my energy to harass because of that pressure, and if they have pressure of their own I can play defensively and just farm and when I'm ready I can go full in and blow them up.
It's funny you use Lux as an example because I used to main her and I love picking Zed into that matchup because of how easy the matchup is for him.
And when you say "Assuming equal skill" it means that the Zed isn't an idiot either. If both are equal skill it means that Zed is going to be able to both harass and farm just as well as Lux can and his kit very much lets him do that.
As opposed to say an actual melee centric champion who relies primarily on auto attacks to farm, of which Zed is most certainly not.
Delph is right. If a Lux, Ori, etc. wants to zone you off the creeps then you would just W on top of them, E, switch places, hit them with a double Q and they would have to flash to not die. Zed's 1v1 power is still far beyond any AP mid 1v1. Especially one like Lux with her long ass cooldowns.
That's the beauty of Zed. If he wants to go agro he can 1v1 most anybody with his ult and burst. If he wants to just farm he can clear the entire wave without ever going into range of harass. It's the same reason I'm confident to play Zed top in most any matchup. He can farm with his Q exceptionally well if needed.
i was lux vs zed once and spent the entire game crying irl because it's impossible
i lucked out and stayed relevant but he became a monster and there was nothing i could do until like thirty minutes in to kill him
Kha'zix is a true terror with his jump resets in team fights, but Kayle, Ryze, Zed, and Diana can all fight him or outright smash him 1v1 without fear in mid lane, and there are plenty of tops who beat him down too if he goes there.
He's a good assassin, but not broken. I personally don't understand why anybody would build manatank Kha'zix. He's an AD assassin, and if you just build AD, you get resets faster and just pentakill. I guess if you're not confident in your assassin positioning and feel you need to be tankier to account for that I could see it. Tear/Manamune are definitely good on him if you're going to be doing a lot of pre fight poking with W, like Jayce.
Manatank KZ lets him take advantage of his really ridiculous abilities better by having the mana and CDR and longevity to make the most of them. Its not a training wheel build like you imply, its just a really strong build.
It essentially makes him an assassin with staying power.
It makes him an assassin without the AD to kill the AD carry in any short amount of time. Not saying it's not a fine build, but it's not an assassin build. I can build Katarina top with Warmog's and Sunfire cape and be sustained damage too, but I'm not an assassin any more at that point.
I just take Rumble into Zed and murder him till his grand children die.
Not sure how that would ever happen. Zed just farms and harasses from outside flamethrower range. If you hit him with slow spear and try to close he Ws away. He wins all in if both people are using ults. Meh. Any matchup can go either way though.
It makes him an assassin without the AD to kill the AD carry in any short amount of time. Not saying it's not a fine build, but it's not an assassin build. I can build Katarina top with Warmog's and Sunfire cape and be sustained damage too, but I'm not an assassin any more at that point.
I just take Rumble into Zed and murder him till his grand children die.
Not sure how that would ever happen. Zed just farms and harasses from outside flamethrower range. If you hit him with slow spear and try to close he Ws away. He wins all in if both people are using ults. Meh. Any matchup can go either way though.
I was going to say the same thing. I typically pick Zed against a Rumble, but if it works for him more power to him
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It makes him an assassin without the AD to kill the AD carry in any short amount of time. Not saying it's not a fine build, but it's not an assassin build. I can build Katarina top with Warmog's and Sunfire cape and be sustained damage too, but I'm not an assassin any more at that point.
I just take Rumble into Zed and murder him till his grand children die.
Not sure how that would ever happen. Zed just farms and harasses from outside flamethrower range. If you hit him with slow spear and try to close he Ws away. He wins all in if both people are using ults. Meh. Any matchup can go either way though.
In my experience Muramana and Frozen Fist is more than enough to blow up the enemy carry when they eat a full W to the face followed by a Q with the FF proc.
And yes its a trade off from pure AD KZ. You're doing less damage. But you're lasting longer and still doing a ton of damage plus you can use your abilities as much as you want which really makes KZ a lot more threatening.
It makes him an assassin without the AD to kill the AD carry in any short amount of time. Not saying it's not a fine build, but it's not an assassin build. I can build Katarina top with Warmog's and Sunfire cape and be sustained damage too, but I'm not an assassin any more at that point.
I just take Rumble into Zed and murder him till his grand children die.
Not sure how that would ever happen. Zed just farms and harasses from outside flamethrower range. If you hit him with slow spear and try to close he Ws away. He wins all in if both people are using ults. Meh. Any matchup can go either way though.
Rumble is really high damage (With a higher AD start then Zed.) and his scrap shield can pretty much absorb shurikens as long as you aren't getting hit by both. (Which is actually not hard to avoid with the shields speedup)
I fail if I sit back and let Zed setup his own attacks. I can outtrade him, but if he gets particularly shuriken pokey and I don't shield dash in and double harpoon punish every chance he wastes his shadow trying to harrass, I'd be letting him win the lane.
I don't disbelieve the notion that I've only ever run into bad Zed players, but even on paper Rumble can pretty much trade with Zed on par if not higher due to having an actual shield.
Also, you can push the lane just as hard with Rumble, so he can't just shove and roam. Since you can just shove back and follow or go in the other direction.
Yes, if the Zed is saving his W to escape (Since the cooldown is literally twice as long as harpoon and almost always 3x as long as flamespitter/shield) then he'd never have a thing to worry about.
But his clear isn't actually that great without using his shadow to clear from safety.
Again, though, I could have just always been against bad Zed players.
Just don't know how you out trade the Zed, since the only thing you should ever hit him with would be a spear, and even then probably not many of them. I would just shove the lane against Rumble and make him use flamethrower to farm. The difference is if both free farm Zed can still one shot the enemy AD carry, and while Rumble is useful, he doesn't fill that same role.
Just don't know how you out trade the Zed, since the only thing you should ever hit him with would be a spear, and even then probably not many of them. I would just shove the lane against Rumble and make him use flamethrower to farm. The difference is if both free farm Zed can still one shot the enemy AD carry, and while Rumble is useful, he doesn't fill that same role.
You shove with W, I shield, dash in, double harpoon since its easy to land, and flamethrower. I just won that trade. Or you try to do it without W (Which is balls slow at first) and eat spears and flamethrower anyway (Since even if you W away you're still 70% slowed and will still eat a handful of flame ticks.)
The difference here is I feel (and on paper) that he can only win a trade with W up. Which will give me three times the chances to go on him without him being able to really hit back nearly as hard. (All of Rumble's things have really low (6s) CD and you'll have time to let heat drop while you're waiting for him to waste his W to clear or just waiting for creeps to thin a bit.)
I'll never shove a lane or waste flame on creeps. Unless he shoves and leaves, then I'll nuke the wave and follow. Elsewise it's better to just wander near the front and wait him out. Your shield is an instant with no cast pauses so you can basically pace around all you want.
I think Zed's strength in mid is that he's an assassin with everything that means but he can still reliably farm with Q and W if he's getting shoved, which is where most assassins fall short.
So yeah Rumble could shove him but he could still stay relevant.
Like, straight up, how in the blue hell do you play support and not have a sightstone at 15min
I've been trying to convince my friend who mains supports that sightstone is not the "biggest waste of gold in League" he makes it out to be.
Today, he told me that he saved money buying pink wards over getting a sightstone.
He then spent 10 minutes complaining that he can't get out of Bronze 4 because he "keeps getting matched with scrubs."
Tell him he is goosing bad.
Sightstone+pink ward spam is civilization.
Frozenzen on
+1
ExtreaminatusGo forth and amplify,the Noise Marines are here!Registered Userregular
I'm tempted, but he's been listening to my other advice like:
-Don't wait to buy boots, get them before the 30 minute mark damnit.
-Stop wasting your first ward on the lane bush, put that shit in the river.
I don't know why he's holding out so hard on the sightstone thing.
Posts
It's why you see him so often in Mid. He does very well in Mid and Top. His jungle is kinda of meh, but a good Zed can make it work. I don't personally like it though.
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how has this not been nerfed to oblivion yet?
Joe's Stream.
Because Riot doesn't want to make me cry.
he's just another champ people don't know how to play against.
shut him down early and stay near your minions.
Joe's Stream.
It's funny on champs that don't use mana for a different reason, admittedly.
Problem is playing ADC or Jungle lux while its workable in theory it becomes entirely unworkable when convincing your team that you arnt trolling and going to 'cause' them to lose.
Mid and support sees fair amount of lux play and most people know about Siv's meyham with lux top.
D3: Jerkshoes#1129
Suddenly the early game giants that are bruisers are taking part in the important early game objectives like they have always really wanted while the guys that just want to farm until late game (ADCs) can sit in their little island paradise that is top lane.
Aren't we already seeing this, to an extent? I'm certainly encountering a fair few people running Vayne, Cait and Graves top.
The only thing that makes me sad about the possibility of double-bruiser bot is that if it becomes too popular it might kill off the type of mage-y support that I prefer. You want Janna, Sona or Zyra? lolno, pick a CC tank or get out of bot lane.
This will happen. I love tanky junglers, but cannot xin or shyv for the life of me.
Nautilus will always be amazing, but he needs some love as the S3 changes fucked him in lots of small ways.
Team started fighting, so I decided to be the calm voice of reason and say "Hey guys, don't fight, just focus and kill them. I'm super fed now(I was at, like, 8/2 at this point) and we're even in kills, just stay in team-fights and go. I'll get the carries"
The result? Vayne stood at the fountain for 5 minutes typing to Taric and refusing to play, Oriana would spam "reported reported reported" any time she was near a kill or saved from dying and then join Vayne on the fountain refusing to play for a minute before going off on her own and repeating the whole situation, and Taric was yelling at Vayne for being "A fukkin 10 year old"
Goddammit weekend soloq
Why must you hurt me
And why do I keep going back
Stay near your minions and eat massive W's.
If I'm ganking a lot I'll get it after manamune and brut. Otherwise I'll get frozen heart first if we're team fighting.
Delph is right. If a Lux, Ori, etc. wants to zone you off the creeps then you would just W on top of them, E, switch places, hit them with a double Q and they would have to flash to not die. Zed's 1v1 power is still far beyond any AP mid 1v1. Especially one like Lux with her long ass cooldowns.
That's the beauty of Zed. If he wants to go agro he can 1v1 most anybody with his ult and burst. If he wants to just farm he can clear the entire wave without ever going into range of harass. It's the same reason I'm confident to play Zed top in most any matchup. He can farm with his Q exceptionally well if needed.
i lucked out and stayed relevant but he became a monster and there was nothing i could do until like thirty minutes in to kill him
He's a good assassin, but not broken. I personally don't understand why anybody would build manatank Kha'zix. He's an AD assassin, and if you just build AD, you get resets faster and just pentakill. I guess if you're not confident in your assassin positioning and feel you need to be tankier to account for that I could see it. Tear/Manamune are definitely good on him if you're going to be doing a lot of pre fight poking with W, like Jayce.
It essentially makes him an assassin with staying power.
Not sure how that would ever happen. Zed just farms and harasses from outside flamethrower range. If you hit him with slow spear and try to close he Ws away. He wins all in if both people are using ults. Meh. Any matchup can go either way though.
I was going to say the same thing. I typically pick Zed against a Rumble, but if it works for him more power to him
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Also I didn't get blowed up immediately.
But take that with a grain of salt. He's the only champion that I really like, but I can't get a hang of. I suck at Kha.
PSN: ChemENGR
In my experience Muramana and Frozen Fist is more than enough to blow up the enemy carry when they eat a full W to the face followed by a Q with the FF proc.
And yes its a trade off from pure AD KZ. You're doing less damage. But you're lasting longer and still doing a ton of damage plus you can use your abilities as much as you want which really makes KZ a lot more threatening.
Rumble is really high damage (With a higher AD start then Zed.) and his scrap shield can pretty much absorb shurikens as long as you aren't getting hit by both. (Which is actually not hard to avoid with the shields speedup)
I fail if I sit back and let Zed setup his own attacks. I can outtrade him, but if he gets particularly shuriken pokey and I don't shield dash in and double harpoon punish every chance he wastes his shadow trying to harrass, I'd be letting him win the lane.
I don't disbelieve the notion that I've only ever run into bad Zed players, but even on paper Rumble can pretty much trade with Zed on par if not higher due to having an actual shield.
Also, you can push the lane just as hard with Rumble, so he can't just shove and roam. Since you can just shove back and follow or go in the other direction.
Yes, if the Zed is saving his W to escape (Since the cooldown is literally twice as long as harpoon and almost always 3x as long as flamespitter/shield) then he'd never have a thing to worry about.
But his clear isn't actually that great without using his shadow to clear from safety.
Again, though, I could have just always been against bad Zed players.
You shove with W, I shield, dash in, double harpoon since its easy to land, and flamethrower. I just won that trade. Or you try to do it without W (Which is balls slow at first) and eat spears and flamethrower anyway (Since even if you W away you're still 70% slowed and will still eat a handful of flame ticks.)
The difference here is I feel (and on paper) that he can only win a trade with W up. Which will give me three times the chances to go on him without him being able to really hit back nearly as hard. (All of Rumble's things have really low (6s) CD and you'll have time to let heat drop while you're waiting for him to waste his W to clear or just waiting for creeps to thin a bit.)
I'll never shove a lane or waste flame on creeps. Unless he shoves and leaves, then I'll nuke the wave and follow. Elsewise it's better to just wander near the front and wait him out. Your shield is an instant with no cast pauses so you can basically pace around all you want.
So yeah Rumble could shove him but he could still stay relevant.
Fuck yes. Can you link to the game?
I've been trying to convince my friend who mains supports that sightstone is not the "biggest waste of gold in League" he makes it out to be.
Today, he told me that he saved money buying pink wards over getting a sightstone.
Kill your friend.
Its for the best.
Tell him he is goosing bad.
Sightstone+pink ward spam is civilization.
-Don't wait to buy boots, get them before the 30 minute mark damnit.
-Stop wasting your first ward on the lane bush, put that shit in the river.
I don't know why he's holding out so hard on the sightstone thing.