1) The only communication I need is roles and the new pings. This is even more true with the glorious advent our ping wheel overlord.
2) OK, it's been a really long time since I posted a replay for feedback. Now I'm doing ranked, and I know we have a lot of strong support players in this thread, so I'm throwing up a game of me doing badbadbad (I think I'm like a Bronze IV player in Silver V): http://www.leaguereplays.com/replays/match/2965472/
Some things that jump out at me were: I way overanticipated many friendly ganks, and I didn't know how to out-maneuver Taric in lane. What I really need help understanding is how to act in the chaotic midgame.
I know it's like 30 minutes of watching, but thought I'd ask -- don't feel like I'm improving really these days.
Take Q first on Lulu.
Save W for Caitlyn instead of Taric when he stuns.
The Miss Fortune was dumb for stepping on the trap for the first death but she wouldn't have died if you'd polymorphed and slowed the Caitlyn. When he stuns Miss Fortune you are basically free to hit Caitlyn with as much as you can because you aren't in danger of dying when they're attacking your carry.
All of your glitterlance harass should have been on Caitlyn instead of Taric. His heal is less effective on her than on himself and she started with only two potions. With the way the lane was going, poking Taric at all was pretty pointless and you would have been better holding on to your Q to slow Caitlyn when she tried to follow up a stun.
The little fight at 9:20 you probably just straight up kill them if you stand your ground and fight (well, MF's items are awful so maybe. If she had a dorans blade you definitely straight up kill them). Taric basically wastes his stun on nothing, while you would theoretically have exhaust, polymorph, and glitterlance to kill Caitlyn with when she nets into you. In any case Taric stuns someone who isn't you so you have no reason whatsoever to flash out.
First Hecarim gank you hold on to your glitterlance forever even after you've engaged on Caitlyn, and you end up just using it on Taric and not accomplishing anything. Caitlyn net is down and she has no mana so just hitting her with glitterlance and fighting her pops flash or cleanse and you still have exhaust up.
Also you're not using any of your regen. You could have popped your biscuit for an extra spell and full health while hecarim was coming down. But mostly it comes back to harassing Caitlyn. You started off the game with more regen than she did (and basically more damage as well...), so it should have been your sole mission in life to mess her up whenever Dazzle was on cooldown.
You waste your pink wards. First one should have just been in the river bush. Taric wasn't gone from lane long enough for his ward to be out of range of yours if you put it there, and the vision you get is almost exactly the same.
Your second one you put down at dragon right after the first dies even though Taric couldn't have possibly put anything there. When you came back to lane there you should have just warded the river bush over the wall with a green and put a green in your lane bush, and just sit on the pink ward for a bit.
Make sure you type lol when you steal a dragon.
Save your ultimate instead of using it preemptively. At least, for the Lee Sin and Hecarim cases early on, with their tower still up and your limited vision you weren't going to be able to tower dive so it couldn't have really accomplished much.
You wander mid a couple times which was fine but you could have warded before going back bottom both times.
When Hecarim gets caught by baron just give him a rotation of skills and peace out. Lee Sin shouldn't go in. You shouldn't go in. Miss Fortune definitely shouldn't go in.
I would not have finished the Shurelia's so early. I would have gone mobility boots honestly, to keep up wards as much as possible. Also if you can run up and slow somebody way overextended then the people on your team probably won't have trouble catching up with our without the shurelia boost. Possibly cooldown boots or start aegis.
I guess near the end you could have warded mid lane right in front of your outer tower. If Hecarim hadn't gotten caught you could have eventually warded by your wraiths and inside baron and that basically would have been your ward situation from the sightstone, with an extra green either on your own blue buff or the banana bush by blue. At that point your best hope was catching them doing dumb stuff in your jungle or fishing for the greatest Hecarim ult of all time.
I'm playing against a Trundle support. I had no idea that was a thing.
he has a fair amount of utility, slows and can lower people's AD and has good base damage. Plus it's weird and no one really knows how to play against him.
From two trundle games I've seen this season, the answer is just straight up duel him and he dies.
oh I didn't say it was a legitimate thing, oh god no, trundle needs some love. An increase to the amount of AD he steals would do wonders and bring him back into this AD centric meta we've got currently. However Riot has said they don't like trundel's design. So I guess the less of him we see the better they feel.
In other News: LCS is back tomorrow! Will Diginitas reign supreme? Will Curse come up with something new!? Will team MRN do well? will complexity win a game? FIND OUT TOMORROW on another episode of 'League Championship Series'!
Its funny, I just won a game as trundle jungle in normals. Although I was 4-0 by 7 minutes, he fit really well with our team comp. We had MF, Annie, Malphite, and Thresh with me as Trundle. In teamfights, Malph would initiate, I would pillar and cast ultimate on their shen, MF ults, Thresh chains/boxes people on top of it. GG. Plus a good old fashioned tibbers ult to clean up. The enemy team was mundo, shen, malz, varus and some non factor support. It was a really really mean team comp.
Trundle top actually shits pretty hard on any melee without sustain. Put a botrk on that trundle and ouch. Just his teamfighting can be iffy depending on the comps.
People suggesting that if you get kicked by the vote kick system that you should show up in the tribunal.
Jesus christ, do people not really how much incentive this would give people to abuse it?
Here's Lyte's opinion on the vote kick option:
Vote kick is an interesting idea that has been suggested by players for quite awhile; however, what are some of the goals we'd like to accomplish for Champ Select?
One, we want to encourage cooperation in Champ Select. Two, we want players to have an ability to opt-out if they are 'stuck' with players they perceive are toxic or extremely negative. Vote-kick systems tend to give players an opt-out mechanism; however, they do not encourage cooperation.
In fact, in some scenarios vote-kick systems encourage premade groups to bully the strangers in the lobby into specific roles or champions. Given a scenario with 5 strangers, if 4 strangers happen to agree on roles and the 5th doesn't, the 4 strangers are highly likely to collaborate to kick the 5th. Given a vote-kick system, we are likely to see more disagreements than before, and greatly increase the time it takes to get into a game.
People suggesting that if you get kicked by the vote kick system that you should show up in the tribunal.
Jesus christ, do people not realize how much incentive this would give people to abuse it?
People often don't think through the things they say :P. Although some of its down to blind ignorance. I don't think its stupidity I just think that sometimes people don't think the thing through past 'its solves x' rather then 'well it solves x, but it creates y,z,a,b,c,d,f,g,h,i as other problems). For example I did not think of how badly it would effect non English speakers. It didn't occur to me that this would be a problem. I just blindly wanted it to solve x and explain away the other problems that came with it in order for it to solve x.
Surely his idea of being able to opt out is pointing towards a less punishing dodge?
Like that's exactly what it was to me when there was no ELO penalty for dodging and there was just the timer. I'd dodge when I felt the game was a waste of time and take the timer happily over playing that game, was a fine system to me.
That's further complicated by people thinking they're better than the other players in the queue. Dunning-Kruger manifests relatively consistently. For example, we've been doing player behavior perception surveys for some time now. On those surveys, players are much more likely to suggest they very rarely make mistakes that cost the game while other players are doing so much more frequently. On a five-point frequency scale, "my mistakes cost the game" clocks in at a full point above "another player's mistakes cost the game". It can't really be the case that every respondent only rarely costs the game while a given other player frequently does.
Wait wait wait, so you are saying people regularly think they are not the cause of a loss and that they think it is their teammates most of the time?
Shocking
I'm glad they do track this stuff though and that they initiated this sort of feedback from the community on what is actually a legitimate issue.
NNID: delphinidaes Official PA Forums FFXIV:ARR Free Company <GHOST> gitl.enjin.com Join us on Sargatanas!
To be fair there's four other people to make mistakes vs just one player.
Like I'm usually not the person who makes that game losing derp move in a game. That's not because I don't do those moves (I do, along with tons of other mistakes all the time) just because it's more likely that one of the other players does so.
I wouldn't actually put 'a full point above' as that big a difference, unless they're using a very small scale like 1-5.
EDIT: I like this Lyte post:
I agree with you, vote-kicks would not work for Normals because it would encourage premades to bully strangers; however, vote-kick would probably not work for a different reason in Ranked. In many of the lobbies I've observed recently, it's usually only 1 player who wants an overlapping role. Think back to all the Champ Select lobbies where 3 or 4 players agreed on roles. Wouldn't all of these Champ Select lobbies end with a vote-kick?
It's pretty much the best reason to me to not have vote kicking that I've heard.
Vote-kick introduces more problems than it solves, even a cursory glance at it would tell you that. It's a bit sad that so much time has to be devoted to discussing it instead of looking for better solutions.
In other news, sometimes you win and sometimes you WIN!
Vote-kick introduces more problems than it solves, even a cursory glance at it would tell you that. It's a bit sad that so much time has to be devoted to discussing it instead of looking for better solutions.
In other news, sometimes you win and sometimes you WIN!
This is kind of a Goosey thing to say. To you it might create more problems then is solves. However some of those problems, to some people do not out weigh the benefits. I at the start of the day thought vote kicking was a good idea. Now I see a lot of the flaws that are not very apparent to me and to thousands of other people. Not everyone instantly figures out all the kinks or views problems in the same way. Don't dismiss this as a way of learning for some people by trivializing it because you saw the flaws and made the decision that they did not outweigh the pros. Its a public discussion, they will have their own discussions in house and who knows someone may come up with a solution that no one thought of in house, in that thread.
To be fair there's four other people to make mistakes vs just one player.
Like I'm usually not the person who makes that game losing derp move in a game. That's not because I don't do those moves (I do, along with tons of other mistakes all the time) just because it's more likely that one of the other players does so.
This is a little confusing, isn't it more likely that in almost everyone's cases their teammates will make more game costing mistakes than they will? This is because there is only 1 of the player in question and 4 teammates (usually) each game- your teammates are also far more likely to make plays that win the game.
Sort of--it's more likely that within a given game a non-you person will be responsible for a mistake (assuming you all have equal mistake chances / skill), but NOT more likely than any given player will have a higher chance of making a mistake.
We all make mistakes, but we remember the ones that others make much more strongly.
Which I think was the point of the first thing he said. You are right from a numbers perspective but he was speaking to the mentality.
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Oh yeah, I definitely believe I'm a sub plat player at heart/sarcasm etc. etc.
I dunno, I think the only time I get really 'why do I get put with bads' is when I AD Carry. Purely because I'm used to being the support and in charge of the lane and watching someone else support and adjusting to their style is something I'm so bad at so I just wind up frustrated at them not playing like me.
Oh yeah, I definitely believe I'm a sub plat player at heart/sarcasm etc. etc.
I dunno, I think the only time I get really 'why do I get put with bads' is when I AD Carry. Purely because I'm used to being the support and in charge of the lane and watching someone else support and adjusting to their style is something I'm so bad at so I just wind up frustrated at them not playing like me.
That's the whole thing though. At heart we think much more highly of ourselves (because it is a known factor) than of others (an unknown factor) and that in part leads to conflicts in champ select. We are much more comfortable with our own play with a particular role/champ than others which means we would much rather take on that role than give it to a stranger who may/may not be good at it.
It's not a BAD thing mind you, just human nature.
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There's a good point about cooperation there and the situation where most people may find it easier to force a vote kick rather than look for a compromise in roles/lanes.
I think it's at least a good system to test, at the very least to put the whole idea to rest rather than having it come up again and again.
Oh yeah, to me it's kinda one of the issues of such a rigid role meta. In DOTA I can happily say 'I'm the best roaming support player in my group' and that's fine. It doesn't conflict with me being able to say happily my friend is probably better at some tri-lane supports because they're different roles entirely that just happen to share the number 4/5 slot for gold priority.
What I'm saying is League clearly needs a Tri-lane meta with longer, curved lanes so you can have Ashe/Taric/Nidalee and Nidalee can just sit there chunking dudes from behind the lane wall.
Surely his idea of being able to opt out is pointing towards a less punishing dodge?
Like that's exactly what it was to me when there was no ELO penalty for dodging and there was just the timer. I'd dodge when I felt the game was a waste of time and take the timer happily over playing that game, was a fine system to me.
I preferred the other system as well. But the amount of dodging has dropped quite a bit, and it may have been too excessive previously.
That's further complicated by people thinking they're better than the other players in the queue. Dunning-Kruger manifests relatively consistently. For example, we've been doing player behavior perception surveys for some time now. On those surveys, players are much more likely to suggest they very rarely make mistakes that cost the game while other players are doing so much more frequently. On a five-point frequency scale, "my mistakes cost the game" clocks in at a full point above "another player's mistakes cost the game". It can't really be the case that every respondent only rarely costs the game while a given other player frequently does.
Wait wait wait, so you are saying people regularly think they are not the cause of a loss and that they think it is their teammates most of the time?
Shocking
I'm glad they do track this stuff though and that they initiated this sort of feedback from the community on what is actually a legitimate issue.
The red posts in that thread are awesome, and some incredible PR jujitzu.
Surely his idea of being able to opt out is pointing towards a less punishing dodge?
Like that's exactly what it was to me when there was no ELO penalty for dodging and there was just the timer. I'd dodge when I felt the game was a waste of time and take the timer happily over playing that game, was a fine system to me.
I preferred the other system as well. But the amount of dodging has dropped quite a bit, and it may have been too excessive previously.
Well to me the thing is gonna go like this:
The way you prevent player conflict and toxic games starting in the lobby as often is to give players a refusal power. This refusal power naturally leads to more dodges/non start ups because of people using the refusal power. It's going to always lead to an increased number of non start ups if players have a legitimate tool to avoid matches they don't want.
The question is whether that's okay (I think it is, you can't get Elo inflation if no game took place and under the old system it was more punishing for the person who dodged than others) and how many extra games you should be expecting to wait through to get one started (I'll happily sit through 2 non-start ups if in return for having the power to dodge).
To be fair there's four other people to make mistakes vs just one player.
Like I'm usually not the person who makes that game losing derp move in a game. That's not because I don't do those moves (I do, along with tons of other mistakes all the time) just because it's more likely that one of the other players does so.
I wouldn't actually put 'a full point above' as that big a difference, unless they're using a very small scale like 1-5.
EDIT: I like this Lyte post:
I agree with you, vote-kicks would not work for Normals because it would encourage premades to bully strangers; however, vote-kick would probably not work for a different reason in Ranked. In many of the lobbies I've observed recently, it's usually only 1 player who wants an overlapping role. Think back to all the Champ Select lobbies where 3 or 4 players agreed on roles. Wouldn't all of these Champ Select lobbies end with a vote-kick?
It's pretty much the best reason to me to not have vote kicking that I've heard.
Oh yeah, I definitely believe I'm a sub plat player at heart/sarcasm etc. etc.
I dunno, I think the only time I get really 'why do I get put with bads' is when I AD Carry. Purely because I'm used to being the support and in charge of the lane and watching someone else support and adjusting to their style is something I'm so bad at so I just wind up frustrated at them not playing like me.
That's the whole thing though. At heart we think much more highly of ourselves (because it is a known factor) than of others (an unknown factor) and that in part leads to conflicts in champ select. We are much more comfortable with our own play with a particular role/champ than others which means we would much rather take on that role than give it to a stranger who may/may not be good at it.
It's not a BAD thing mind you, just human nature.
And there's a ton of cognitive bias with that as well. You'll remember with greater emotional feeling, every time you gave up that lane and someone did poorly. But you're less likely to remember the times you gave it up and they did well. You're also much less inclined to say, "wow I gave up that role and this person did a good job, I am now more inclined to give it up in the future" rather than "Wow this person is terrible. Whelp, can't trust anyone to mid except me."
Oh yeah, I definitely believe I'm a sub plat player at heart/sarcasm etc. etc.
I dunno, I think the only time I get really 'why do I get put with bads' is when I AD Carry. Purely because I'm used to being the support and in charge of the lane and watching someone else support and adjusting to their style is something I'm so bad at so I just wind up frustrated at them not playing like me.
That's the whole thing though. At heart we think much more highly of ourselves (because it is a known factor) than of others (an unknown factor) and that in part leads to conflicts in champ select. We are much more comfortable with our own play with a particular role/champ than others which means we would much rather take on that role than give it to a stranger who may/may not be good at it.
It's not a BAD thing mind you, just human nature.
And there's a ton of cognitive bias with that as well. You'll remember with greater emotional feeling, every time you gave up that lane and someone did poorly. But you're less likely to remember the times you gave it up and they did well. You're also much less inclined to say, "wow I gave up that role and this person did a good job, I am now more inclined to give it up in the future" rather than "Wow this person is terrible. Whelp, can't trust anyone to mid except me."
The best attitude is to assume that everyone in the lobby including yourself is terrible. At which point the only logical solution is to just have fun and enjoy the game because well fuck if you win with a team you're convinced everyone is terrible on then it really would be funny.
I have a replay of a buddy of mine on jax getting a 2v5 penta while DC'd on jax by basically A-moving into the baron pit on a low team. Guy was on skype "Did I die guys, I just DC'd?".
Vote-kick introduces more problems than it solves, even a cursory glance at it would tell you that. It's a bit sad that so much time has to be devoted to discussing it instead of looking for better solutions.
In other news, sometimes you win and sometimes you WIN!
This is kind of a Goosey thing to say. To you it might create more problems then is solves. However some of those problems, to some people do not out weigh the benefits. I at the start of the day thought vote kicking was a good idea. Now I see a lot of the flaws that are not very apparent to me and to thousands of other people. Not everyone instantly figures out all the kinks or views problems in the same way. Don't dismiss this as a way of learning for some people by trivializing it because you saw the flaws and made the decision that they did not outweigh the pros. Its a public discussion, they will have their own discussions in house and who knows someone may come up with a solution that no one thought of in house, in that thread.
I get more shitstain premades than solo guys trying to ruin games. The other day - I'm first pick -
Other Dude: Jungle
Me: Sorry, I'm jungling.
Other Dude: That's what you think
him and his buddies then all troll-pick supports with smite. Thankfully, someone on the other side dodged.
yeah, really need a way to report people trolling at champ select. It really sucks that so many trolls get away with their behavior there with the only options being to dodge them or slog out 20+ minutes of hell (even more if they duo queue and refuse to ever surrender).
Vote-kick introduces more problems than it solves, even a cursory glance at it would tell you that. It's a bit sad that so much time has to be devoted to discussing it instead of looking for better solutions.
In other news, sometimes you win and sometimes you WIN!
This is kind of a Goosey thing to say. To you it might create more problems then is solves. However some of those problems, to some people do not out weigh the benefits. I at the start of the day thought vote kicking was a good idea. Now I see a lot of the flaws that are not very apparent to me and to thousands of other people. Not everyone instantly figures out all the kinks or views problems in the same way. Don't dismiss this as a way of learning for some people by trivializing it because you saw the flaws and made the decision that they did not outweigh the pros. Its a public discussion, they will have their own discussions in house and who knows someone may come up with a solution that no one thought of in house, in that thread.
I get more shitstain premades than solo guys trying to ruin games. The other day - I'm first pick -
Other Dude: Jungle
Me: Sorry, I'm jungling.
Other Dude: That's what you think
him and his buddies then all troll-pick supports with smite. Thankfully, someone on the other side dodged.
To be honest, I hate people that say "Sorry, but I'm stealing the spot you just called because I dont care what you want". If you want that particular role so badly, ask nicely.
1) The only communication I need is roles and the new pings. This is even more true with the glorious advent our ping wheel overlord.
2) OK, it's been a really long time since I posted a replay for feedback. Now I'm doing ranked, and I know we have a lot of strong support players in this thread, so I'm throwing up a game of me doing badbadbad (I think I'm like a Bronze IV player in Silver V): http://www.leaguereplays.com/replays/match/2965472/
Some things that jump out at me were: I way overanticipated many friendly ganks, and I didn't know how to out-maneuver Taric in lane. What I really need help understanding is how to act in the chaotic midgame.
I know it's like 30 minutes of watching, but thought I'd ask -- don't feel like I'm improving really these days.
Take Q first on Lulu.
Save W for Caitlyn instead of Taric when he stuns.
The Miss Fortune was dumb for stepping on the trap for the first death but she wouldn't have died if you'd polymorphed and slowed the Caitlyn. When he stuns Miss Fortune you are basically free to hit Caitlyn with as much as you can because you aren't in danger of dying when they're attacking your carry.
All of your glitterlance harass should have been on Caitlyn instead of Taric. His heal is less effective on her than on himself and she started with only two potions. With the way the lane was going, poking Taric at all was pretty pointless and you would have been better holding on to your Q to slow Caitlyn when she tried to follow up a stun.
The little fight at 9:20 you probably just straight up kill them if you stand your ground and fight (well, MF's items are awful so maybe. If she had a dorans blade you definitely straight up kill them). Taric basically wastes his stun on nothing, while you would theoretically have exhaust, polymorph, and glitterlance to kill Caitlyn with when she nets into you. In any case Taric stuns someone who isn't you so you have no reason whatsoever to flash out.
First Hecarim gank you hold on to your glitterlance forever even after you've engaged on Caitlyn, and you end up just using it on Taric and not accomplishing anything. Caitlyn net is down and she has no mana so just hitting her with glitterlance and fighting her pops flash or cleanse and you still have exhaust up.
Also you're not using any of your regen. You could have popped your biscuit for an extra spell and full health while hecarim was coming down. But mostly it comes back to harassing Caitlyn. You started off the game with more regen than she did (and basically more damage as well...), so it should have been your sole mission in life to mess her up whenever Dazzle was on cooldown.
You waste your pink wards. First one should have just been in the river bush. Taric wasn't gone from lane long enough for his ward to be out of range of yours if you put it there, and the vision you get is almost exactly the same.
Your second one you put down at dragon right after the first dies even though Taric couldn't have possibly put anything there. When you came back to lane there you should have just warded the river bush over the wall with a green and put a green in your lane bush, and just sit on the pink ward for a bit.
Make sure you type lol when you steal a dragon.
Save your ultimate instead of using it preemptively. At least, for the Lee Sin and Hecarim cases early on, with their tower still up and your limited vision you weren't going to be able to tower dive so it couldn't have really accomplished much.
You wander mid a couple times which was fine but you could have warded before going back bottom both times.
When Hecarim gets caught by baron just give him a rotation of skills and peace out. Lee Sin shouldn't go in. You shouldn't go in. Miss Fortune definitely shouldn't go in.
I would not have finished the Shurelia's so early. I would have gone mobility boots honestly, to keep up wards as much as possible. Also if you can run up and slow somebody way overextended then the people on your team probably won't have trouble catching up with our without the shurelia boost. Possibly cooldown boots or start aegis.
I guess near the end you could have warded mid lane right in front of your outer tower. If Hecarim hadn't gotten caught you could have eventually warded by your wraiths and inside baron and that basically would have been your ward situation from the sightstone, with an extra green either on your own blue buff or the banana bush by blue. At that point your best hope was catching them doing dumb stuff in your jungle or fishing for the greatest Hecarim ult of all time.
You're like an angel. :P I'll read this over again before I play my next few ranked games. Re: boots, I think you're right -- the more I play Lulu the more I buy Mobility Boots more often and earlier. Her map mobility isn't that good even popping Whimsy, and you have to scurry so damn much to get everywhere you need to go.
(I typed hahaHAhahaa when I stole dragon, but unfortunately the client didn't automatically translate this into Lulu's cackle).
2) OK, it's been a really long time since I posted a replay for feedback. Now I'm doing ranked, and I know we have a lot of strong support players in this thread, so I'm throwing up a game of me doing badbadbad (I think I'm like a Bronze IV player in Silver V): http://www.leaguereplays.com/replays/match/2965472/
Some things that jump out at me were: I way overanticipated many friendly ganks, and I didn't know how to out-maneuver Taric in lane. What I really need help understanding is how to act in the chaotic midgame.
I know it's like 30 minutes of watching, but thought I'd ask -- don't feel like I'm improving really these days.
1) You did not get out of base fast enough. Its hard for supports when you have to buy a lot of starting items (and not flub it) but you still need to be out of base and either into defensive or aggressive positions early. Its 30 seconds before you get out of base and your MF is almost to the river. Even she didn't have the fastest of starts (but does get an advantage from being MF)
If you have trouble getting out of base when buying consider doing what Lee did. As soon as the game starts move to the edge of the buy radius and buy as your character moves. This won't save you much time but it will save you a bit.
The reason you need to get out of base sooner is because its now 40 seconds in and your MF is in their tribrush. MF could run into their team alone or, more importantly, their entire team could have gotten into your mid jungle entrance near blue. If slow starts like that are the norm then getting to the enemies gank brush before them is a near guaranteed first blood if they don't ward. Which means that you can capitalize by motivating your team to move fast at champion select
2) You control taric by controlling the brushes. You start the game with no vision in the far lane brush which means that taric controls, by default, all of the space from that brush. You have, essentially given that space to him for free. Imagine for a second that you can't see what he is doing there and the lane starts to push towards you. In this case, if you're not far back yourself then you're dead, 100% every time. In this case, at 2:40 you did not die because you were not forward in the brush but you did cede lane control to taric/cait. [cait made a mistake, she should have, if possible, trapped the middle of the brush rather than the front, since that would force you out into the middle of creeps as she pressured the brush rather than letting you retreat in a space she could not harass]. Because of this its now 3 minutes and taric has positioned himself in a way that means you cannot ward the river. You are, essentially, blind to any gank attempt because you didn't ward the far river brush at the start of the game
Now it is inefficient to ward the far lane brush if you don't know which way the lane is going to push. It could push towards you and then the ward would be useless, or push away so far that you don't need the vision. So, if you haven't used your 60 second ward yet, this is a perfect place to put it.
3) Your river pink ward should have been in the brush. Since taric saw you place it he can counter ward it. He also has a pink in tribrush which you should know about since its not in his inventory and since he started with one and since he didn't kill your pink ward. This was a misplay on his part because he should have known you didn't have tri warded and so used a green. Had he done that your misplaced ward would have been a 150 gold swing for him.
4) Your 60 second ward in the close lane brush is a bad choice. You have to ward again 1 minute later which means you may get killed unless you're planning a counter gank soon by baiting or you want to cede the advantage and farm under your tower which you don't want to do against cait, ever. In fact this might have gotten your MF killed, since if you had vision you could have morphed taric before he stunned, rather than after and had you done that MF might have been able to flash away from the majority of the damage.
5) When MF died you probably should have gone back. This is up in the air, but consider that while you did get some XP and CS now you're coming back to lane when MF is alone. Not only was staying risky because taric/cait might have been able to dive you, but it was also risky because since you were forced off/needed to b for wards, you left MF alone at the tower against cait/taric who could bully her easier. If you left when MF died they would have gotten tower damage but probably not killed it, (especially if you nuked to clear the wave/damage it) but if they tried to kill it then they would have lost the item advantage to you and MF and you two would be able to take back control of the lane because of it. You got lucky that cait b'd (and even luckier that taric stayed) instead of staying in lane and eating the item disadvantage in order to prosecute the 2v1 (especially because of MF's bad early item choice). What they could have done would be to entirely zone MF from XP until you got back (or push her out of lane) and then b.
As it stands, MF gets pushed out of lane by a gank anyway and you're left to 2v1. You both lose a lot of gold and xp simply because you left MF alone in lane by not going back. If this does happen to you, see if you can get MF to help gank a lane before going back bottom. Basically, unless you're creating an asymmetry somewhere else there is no point in walking into a disadvantageous situation. You made the situation for MF to walk into, but might be worth asking her to not walk into it.
6) MF comes back to lane and you don't ward the lane brush. You should be pretty sure that taric b'd since he needed items (I.E. had no wards at all and had gold to spend) and that cait was all alone. If she was all alone you could either kill/push her out of lane or zone her. If you're personally not sure taric isn't there, spend the ward and take control of the lane. 75 gold spent to keep an enemy from being able to farm an entire wave nets you about 75 gold plus experience. In addition you may have been able to move into the far brush when pushing her out and get a ward in tri. Which would have spent your wards but also given you 100% vision of the bottom lane so long as you were able to maintain your push(I.E. not get forced out of the brush physically).
Instead you use your wards very defensively and not really getting much vision. Once it was clear that taric was not there you should have immediately warded tri and not warded the close lane brush. The lane pushes and now your two wards you just placed are useless. You have a ward behind you that didn't buy you anything and a ward in river brush which doesn't extend far enough into tribrush area to see Vi coming.
Because you don't have vision of tribrush when you come back to lane taric is able to physically push you out of the bottom lane brush and take back control of the lane, zoning you and MF from CS/letting him engage. Note that even though the engage wasn't a good idea for him (you would have won that fight had you not flashed and instead poly'd cait) they still came out ahead because at the end of the fight they were still zoning you and they still might have come out ahead even if you did poly cait. The ideal situation for you says you win, but the ideal for them says they don't hard engage like they did and instead shove you out of the lane and zone you out of gold and xp.
7) 10 minutes in and they shove you out of lane after the last fight. They push to your tower and you cede your tower to them. You wisely back off because you don't have your ult but then come back to tower. You should not have done that. Cait would have killed you if she understood tower aggro mechanics. The thing about tower aggro mechanics is that if the target is not within tower range the tower does not see it. Cait could have attacked you freely once you walked back into her.
The counter gank that happened after that is not your fault, nor were the deaths at 12:30 due to lee/hec telegraphing their gank and sticking around without wards
8) The ward at 13:10 before they pushed the lane was really good (a lot of people don't ward until they're there which means either time to clear it or risk in moving to the bush once they've taken it) and saved you a lot of trouble
9) after the successful gank on bottom lane there was no reason for you to go to ward river the long way, you could have gone and warded tri/river directly. This is because you still have a relatively high amount of HP and while you didn't have your ult, with caits position she would necessarily be split from any fight that occurred in river/tri. As well for a fight in the river, lee would be close. This is, of course so long as hecarim came with you. By not taking the direct route you leave MF alone if Vi/Lux come down to gank. Of course you were out of wards but this is what you should have done if you had them.
10) 16:50 did you mis-cast your ult? If you meant to self cast to knock up taric you've got to work on your mechanics because lee was no where near them and had full HP. You did it again at 20:50. Had you used your ult well(to save yourself when vi was attacking you under the toewr) you could have won that fight
11) 23 minutes in you can't just be waiting around under your tower. Not sure if you're communicating but your team seems pretty passive. Gotta make things happen instead of wait for them to make things happen. Had you aggressively been trying to keep the wave off the tower you might have saved it, preventing the enemy team from 150 global gold.
The one thing about Trundle is that it is absolutely hilarious how tanky he gets while still doing deeps when he ults the tank and you fight him on contaminate.
Posts
Yeah they're changing that.
Potential leaked preview:
Make sure you type lol when you steal a dragon.
Save your ultimate instead of using it preemptively. At least, for the Lee Sin and Hecarim cases early on, with their tower still up and your limited vision you weren't going to be able to tower dive so it couldn't have really accomplished much.
You wander mid a couple times which was fine but you could have warded before going back bottom both times.
When Hecarim gets caught by baron just give him a rotation of skills and peace out. Lee Sin shouldn't go in. You shouldn't go in. Miss Fortune definitely shouldn't go in.
I would not have finished the Shurelia's so early. I would have gone mobility boots honestly, to keep up wards as much as possible. Also if you can run up and slow somebody way overextended then the people on your team probably won't have trouble catching up with our without the shurelia boost. Possibly cooldown boots or start aegis.
I guess near the end you could have warded mid lane right in front of your outer tower. If Hecarim hadn't gotten caught you could have eventually warded by your wraiths and inside baron and that basically would have been your ward situation from the sightstone, with an extra green either on your own blue buff or the banana bush by blue. At that point your best hope was catching them doing dumb stuff in your jungle or fishing for the greatest Hecarim ult of all time.
Its funny, I just won a game as trundle jungle in normals. Although I was 4-0 by 7 minutes, he fit really well with our team comp. We had MF, Annie, Malphite, and Thresh with me as Trundle. In teamfights, Malph would initiate, I would pillar and cast ultimate on their shen, MF ults, Thresh chains/boxes people on top of it. GG. Plus a good old fashioned tibbers ult to clean up. The enemy team was mundo, shen, malz, varus and some non factor support. It was a really really mean team comp.
Dear god that thread.
People suggesting that if you get kicked by the vote kick system that you should show up in the tribunal.
Jesus christ, do people not realize how much incentive this would give people to abuse it?
Here's Lyte's opinion on the vote kick option:
People often don't think through the things they say :P. Although some of its down to blind ignorance. I don't think its stupidity I just think that sometimes people don't think the thing through past 'its solves x' rather then 'well it solves x, but it creates y,z,a,b,c,d,f,g,h,i as other problems). For example I did not think of how badly it would effect non English speakers. It didn't occur to me that this would be a problem. I just blindly wanted it to solve x and explain away the other problems that came with it in order for it to solve x.
Like that's exactly what it was to me when there was no ELO penalty for dodging and there was just the timer. I'd dodge when I felt the game was a waste of time and take the timer happily over playing that game, was a fine system to me.
Some good stuff in there though, mostly from the red posts:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=35560363#35560363
Wait wait wait, so you are saying people regularly think they are not the cause of a loss and that they think it is their teammates most of the time?
Shocking
I'm glad they do track this stuff though and that they initiated this sort of feedback from the community on what is actually a legitimate issue.
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Like I'm usually not the person who makes that game losing derp move in a game. That's not because I don't do those moves (I do, along with tons of other mistakes all the time) just because it's more likely that one of the other players does so.
I wouldn't actually put 'a full point above' as that big a difference, unless they're using a very small scale like 1-5.
EDIT: I like this Lyte post:
I agree with you, vote-kicks would not work for Normals because it would encourage premades to bully strangers; however, vote-kick would probably not work for a different reason in Ranked. In many of the lobbies I've observed recently, it's usually only 1 player who wants an overlapping role. Think back to all the Champ Select lobbies where 3 or 4 players agreed on roles. Wouldn't all of these Champ Select lobbies end with a vote-kick?
It's pretty much the best reason to me to not have vote kicking that I've heard.
In other news, sometimes you win and sometimes you WIN!
This is kind of a Goosey thing to say. To you it might create more problems then is solves. However some of those problems, to some people do not out weigh the benefits. I at the start of the day thought vote kicking was a good idea. Now I see a lot of the flaws that are not very apparent to me and to thousands of other people. Not everyone instantly figures out all the kinks or views problems in the same way. Don't dismiss this as a way of learning for some people by trivializing it because you saw the flaws and made the decision that they did not outweigh the pros. Its a public discussion, they will have their own discussions in house and who knows someone may come up with a solution that no one thought of in house, in that thread.
An excellent point!
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=35560693#35560693
Which I think was the point of the first thing he said. You are right from a numbers perspective but he was speaking to the mentality.
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I dunno, I think the only time I get really 'why do I get put with bads' is when I AD Carry. Purely because I'm used to being the support and in charge of the lane and watching someone else support and adjusting to their style is something I'm so bad at so I just wind up frustrated at them not playing like me.
That's the whole thing though. At heart we think much more highly of ourselves (because it is a known factor) than of others (an unknown factor) and that in part leads to conflicts in champ select. We are much more comfortable with our own play with a particular role/champ than others which means we would much rather take on that role than give it to a stranger who may/may not be good at it.
It's not a BAD thing mind you, just human nature.
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I think it's at least a good system to test, at the very least to put the whole idea to rest rather than having it come up again and again.
What I'm saying is League clearly needs a Tri-lane meta with longer, curved lanes so you can have Ashe/Taric/Nidalee and Nidalee can just sit there chunking dudes from behind the lane wall.
Because it'd be hilarious.
I preferred the other system as well. But the amount of dodging has dropped quite a bit, and it may have been too excessive previously.
The red posts in that thread are awesome, and some incredible PR jujitzu.
Well to me the thing is gonna go like this:
The way you prevent player conflict and toxic games starting in the lobby as often is to give players a refusal power. This refusal power naturally leads to more dodges/non start ups because of people using the refusal power. It's going to always lead to an increased number of non start ups if players have a legitimate tool to avoid matches they don't want.
The question is whether that's okay (I think it is, you can't get Elo inflation if no game took place and under the old system it was more punishing for the person who dodged than others) and how many extra games you should be expecting to wait through to get one started (I'll happily sit through 2 non-start ups if in return for having the power to dodge).
This was pretty much exactly what I said as well.
And there's a ton of cognitive bias with that as well. You'll remember with greater emotional feeling, every time you gave up that lane and someone did poorly. But you're less likely to remember the times you gave it up and they did well. You're also much less inclined to say, "wow I gave up that role and this person did a good job, I am now more inclined to give it up in the future" rather than "Wow this person is terrible. Whelp, can't trust anyone to mid except me."
The best attitude is to assume that everyone in the lobby including yourself is terrible. At which point the only logical solution is to just have fun and enjoy the game because well fuck if you win with a team you're convinced everyone is terrible on then it really would be funny.
I do hate when people try to tell me I have to play x champ though. I do not own Taric for this very reason.
Don't run. Don't cast. Just mothafuckin' turret.
Also, some team just decided to send vayne top vs me as pantheon. Why would they do that? So so foolish.
I get more shitstain premades than solo guys trying to ruin games. The other day - I'm first pick -
Other Dude: Jungle
Me: Sorry, I'm jungling.
Other Dude: That's what you think
him and his buddies then all troll-pick supports with smite. Thankfully, someone on the other side dodged.
MWO: Adamski
To be honest, I hate people that say "Sorry, but I'm stealing the spot you just called because I dont care what you want". If you want that particular role so badly, ask nicely.
MWO: Adamski
You're like an angel. :P I'll read this over again before I play my next few ranked games. Re: boots, I think you're right -- the more I play Lulu the more I buy Mobility Boots more often and earlier. Her map mobility isn't that good even popping Whimsy, and you have to scurry so damn much to get everywhere you need to go.
(I typed hahaHAhahaa when I stole dragon, but unfortunately the client didn't automatically translate this into Lulu's cackle).
@Mahnmut
@Junlea
@Frozenzen
1) You did not get out of base fast enough. Its hard for supports when you have to buy a lot of starting items (and not flub it) but you still need to be out of base and either into defensive or aggressive positions early. Its 30 seconds before you get out of base and your MF is almost to the river. Even she didn't have the fastest of starts (but does get an advantage from being MF)
If you have trouble getting out of base when buying consider doing what Lee did. As soon as the game starts move to the edge of the buy radius and buy as your character moves. This won't save you much time but it will save you a bit.
The reason you need to get out of base sooner is because its now 40 seconds in and your MF is in their tribrush. MF could run into their team alone or, more importantly, their entire team could have gotten into your mid jungle entrance near blue. If slow starts like that are the norm then getting to the enemies gank brush before them is a near guaranteed first blood if they don't ward. Which means that you can capitalize by motivating your team to move fast at champion select
2) You control taric by controlling the brushes. You start the game with no vision in the far lane brush which means that taric controls, by default, all of the space from that brush. You have, essentially given that space to him for free. Imagine for a second that you can't see what he is doing there and the lane starts to push towards you. In this case, if you're not far back yourself then you're dead, 100% every time. In this case, at 2:40 you did not die because you were not forward in the brush but you did cede lane control to taric/cait. [cait made a mistake, she should have, if possible, trapped the middle of the brush rather than the front, since that would force you out into the middle of creeps as she pressured the brush rather than letting you retreat in a space she could not harass]. Because of this its now 3 minutes and taric has positioned himself in a way that means you cannot ward the river. You are, essentially, blind to any gank attempt because you didn't ward the far river brush at the start of the game
Now it is inefficient to ward the far lane brush if you don't know which way the lane is going to push. It could push towards you and then the ward would be useless, or push away so far that you don't need the vision. So, if you haven't used your 60 second ward yet, this is a perfect place to put it.
3) Your river pink ward should have been in the brush. Since taric saw you place it he can counter ward it. He also has a pink in tribrush which you should know about since its not in his inventory and since he started with one and since he didn't kill your pink ward. This was a misplay on his part because he should have known you didn't have tri warded and so used a green. Had he done that your misplaced ward would have been a 150 gold swing for him.
4) Your 60 second ward in the close lane brush is a bad choice. You have to ward again 1 minute later which means you may get killed unless you're planning a counter gank soon by baiting or you want to cede the advantage and farm under your tower which you don't want to do against cait, ever. In fact this might have gotten your MF killed, since if you had vision you could have morphed taric before he stunned, rather than after and had you done that MF might have been able to flash away from the majority of the damage.
5) When MF died you probably should have gone back. This is up in the air, but consider that while you did get some XP and CS now you're coming back to lane when MF is alone. Not only was staying risky because taric/cait might have been able to dive you, but it was also risky because since you were forced off/needed to b for wards, you left MF alone at the tower against cait/taric who could bully her easier. If you left when MF died they would have gotten tower damage but probably not killed it, (especially if you nuked to clear the wave/damage it) but if they tried to kill it then they would have lost the item advantage to you and MF and you two would be able to take back control of the lane because of it. You got lucky that cait b'd (and even luckier that taric stayed) instead of staying in lane and eating the item disadvantage in order to prosecute the 2v1 (especially because of MF's bad early item choice). What they could have done would be to entirely zone MF from XP until you got back (or push her out of lane) and then b.
As it stands, MF gets pushed out of lane by a gank anyway and you're left to 2v1. You both lose a lot of gold and xp simply because you left MF alone in lane by not going back. If this does happen to you, see if you can get MF to help gank a lane before going back bottom. Basically, unless you're creating an asymmetry somewhere else there is no point in walking into a disadvantageous situation. You made the situation for MF to walk into, but might be worth asking her to not walk into it.
6) MF comes back to lane and you don't ward the lane brush. You should be pretty sure that taric b'd since he needed items (I.E. had no wards at all and had gold to spend) and that cait was all alone. If she was all alone you could either kill/push her out of lane or zone her. If you're personally not sure taric isn't there, spend the ward and take control of the lane. 75 gold spent to keep an enemy from being able to farm an entire wave nets you about 75 gold plus experience. In addition you may have been able to move into the far brush when pushing her out and get a ward in tri. Which would have spent your wards but also given you 100% vision of the bottom lane so long as you were able to maintain your push(I.E. not get forced out of the brush physically).
Instead you use your wards very defensively and not really getting much vision. Once it was clear that taric was not there you should have immediately warded tri and not warded the close lane brush. The lane pushes and now your two wards you just placed are useless. You have a ward behind you that didn't buy you anything and a ward in river brush which doesn't extend far enough into tribrush area to see Vi coming.
Because you don't have vision of tribrush when you come back to lane taric is able to physically push you out of the bottom lane brush and take back control of the lane, zoning you and MF from CS/letting him engage. Note that even though the engage wasn't a good idea for him (you would have won that fight had you not flashed and instead poly'd cait) they still came out ahead because at the end of the fight they were still zoning you and they still might have come out ahead even if you did poly cait. The ideal situation for you says you win, but the ideal for them says they don't hard engage like they did and instead shove you out of the lane and zone you out of gold and xp.
7) 10 minutes in and they shove you out of lane after the last fight. They push to your tower and you cede your tower to them. You wisely back off because you don't have your ult but then come back to tower. You should not have done that. Cait would have killed you if she understood tower aggro mechanics. The thing about tower aggro mechanics is that if the target is not within tower range the tower does not see it. Cait could have attacked you freely once you walked back into her.
The counter gank that happened after that is not your fault, nor were the deaths at 12:30 due to lee/hec telegraphing their gank and sticking around without wards
8) The ward at 13:10 before they pushed the lane was really good (a lot of people don't ward until they're there which means either time to clear it or risk in moving to the bush once they've taken it) and saved you a lot of trouble
9) after the successful gank on bottom lane there was no reason for you to go to ward river the long way, you could have gone and warded tri/river directly. This is because you still have a relatively high amount of HP and while you didn't have your ult, with caits position she would necessarily be split from any fight that occurred in river/tri. As well for a fight in the river, lee would be close. This is, of course so long as hecarim came with you. By not taking the direct route you leave MF alone if Vi/Lux come down to gank. Of course you were out of wards but this is what you should have done if you had them.
10) 16:50 did you mis-cast your ult? If you meant to self cast to knock up taric you've got to work on your mechanics because lee was no where near them and had full HP. You did it again at 20:50. Had you used your ult well(to save yourself when vi was attacking you under the toewr) you could have won that fight
11) 23 minutes in you can't just be waiting around under your tower. Not sure if you're communicating but your team seems pretty passive. Gotta make things happen instead of wait for them to make things happen. Had you aggressively been trying to keep the wave off the tower you might have saved it, preventing the enemy team from 150 global gold.
I despise this tactic.
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