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Fuck The NCAA: We Own Your Likeness Edition

So, the NCAA is threatening a MN wrestler over his using his likeness to sell inspirational records.

Of course, what is really driving this is the lawsuit against the NCAA over their use of the likenesses of former players without compensation. Allowing a current player to control his likeness would endanger their case. And so the hammer falls unjustly, for the sake of profits.

This needs to fucking stop.

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Posts

  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    o.O

    I am very confused. How can the NCAA assert legal ownership over a person's 'likeness'? Are they claiming that his likeness somehow became their intellectual property at some point? Did he sign away his 'likeness', somehow?

    With Love and Courage
  • AtomikaAtomika not a robot. does not eat bugs!Registered User regular
    edited February 2013
    NCAA bylaws state that players are not allowed to have gainful employment while under the paid scholarship of any affiliate school and cannot perform in sponsorship duties as a representative of any affiliate program unless they are doing so for their specific school, in which case they cannot accept payment of any kind.

    However, the NCAA can use your likeness in relation to your program and university to represent their brand until such time as you are no longer a part of it.




    But it's okay. In exchange, you get a really limited selection of shitty degree plans you may or may not receive tuition for.

    Atomika on
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    o.O

    I am very confused. How can the NCAA assert legal ownership over a person's 'likeness'? Are they claiming that his likeness somehow became their intellectual property at some point? Did he sign away his 'likeness', somehow?

    They are threatening his eligibility, saying that if he sells records under his name, he can no longer compete in the NCAA. The idea is to keep marquee players from selling their likeness to do an end run around the amateurism rules.

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  • AtomikaAtomika not a robot. does not eat bugs!Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    o.O

    I am very confused. How can the NCAA assert legal ownership over a person's 'likeness'? Are they claiming that his likeness somehow became their intellectual property at some point? Did he sign away his 'likeness', somehow?

    They are threatening his eligibility, saying that if he sells records under his name, he can no longer compete in the NCAA. The idea is to keep marquee players from selling their likeness to do an end run around the amateurism rules.

    To be fair, you can't do ANYTHING to make money while under NCAA contract. Per bylaw.

  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    ...So why do players participate with the NCAA? Is that the only avenue (or effectively the only avenue) for becoming a professional player?

    With Love and Courage
  • AtomikaAtomika not a robot. does not eat bugs!Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    ...So why do players participate with the NCAA? Is that the only avenue (or effectively the only avenue) for becoming a professional player?

    Yep.

    A statistically insignificant amount of players come to the NFL outside of the NCAA. I can't even recall a single one.

  • Element BrianElement Brian Peanut Butter Shill Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    o.O

    I am very confused. How can the NCAA assert legal ownership over a person's 'likeness'? Are they claiming that his likeness somehow became their intellectual property at some point? Did he sign away his 'likeness', somehow?

    They are threatening his eligibility, saying that if he sells records under his name, he can no longer compete in the NCAA. The idea is to keep marquee players from selling their likeness to do an end run around the amateurism rules.

    To be fair, you can't do ANYTHING to make money while under NCAA contract. Per bylaw.

    This. I'm not coming down in support of their rules, however I can see where this reasoning might be used. If a big problem that the NCAA is trying to curtail is boosters, or situations like SMU, then they have to make a pretty broad statement like no making money. Because if they change the rule to, you are allowed to earn money by selling of your services, then it can be come a backdoor/loophole for boosters to funnel money to athletes by having them sell some arbitrary item for an absurd amount of money.

    Not that i agree with that, or with not paying student athletes, or with student athletes, or with the NCCA, but per their laws, i can see where this would be an issue

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  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    ...What is a 'booster'?

    This whole thing is insane. Why the Hell should they be allowed to determine whether or not an aspiring professional player can make a fucking living doing things not even related to the sport? That's crazy.

    With Love and Courage
  • AtomikaAtomika not a robot. does not eat bugs!Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    ...What is a 'booster'?

    This whole thing is insane. Why the Hell should they be allowed to determine whether or not an aspiring professional player can make a fucking living doing things not even related to the sport? That's crazy.

    A booster is a rich fan who donates money to the program. They have a nasty habit of giving athletes money (or other things) on the sly. Having actually played in the NCAA system, I still have no idea why boosters would ever risk a star player's eligibility by doing this. It's this kind of thing that got Reggie Bush busted and forced to give up his Heisman.

  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    Why is that considered a bad thing?

    With Love and Courage
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Because the NCAA isn't supposed to be about money (for the athletes.)

    There is like, a slight good intention behind this but in light of the fact that the NCAA is the minor leagues for the NFL and NBA it's just fucking asinine.

    mcdermottshrykeKnuckle DraggerfugacityCaulk Bite 6
  • AtomikaAtomika not a robot. does not eat bugs!Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    Why is that considered a bad thing?

    Ostensibly, the argument is that A) NCAA athletes are already being given a large monetary gift in their tuition (which is total bullshit, for reasons I've already stated), and B) it could lead to players accepting bribes in return for certain kinds of game-time performances (or more pointedly, a lack thereof).

  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    Ostensibly, the argument is that A) NCAA athletes are already being given a large monetary gift in their tuition (which is total bullshit, for reasons I've already stated), and B) it could lead to players accepting bribes in return for certain kinds of game-time performances (or more pointedly, a lack thereof).

    But throwing a game in exchange for a bribe is already (I assume?) a major offense, right? I don't see why accepting extra gifts / inducements from fans because they think you're so awesome would somehow affect your performance.

    With Love and Courage
  • spacekungfumanspacekungfuman Poor and minority-filled Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    I have a hard time being sympathetic when people are getting or paying for academic degrees based in part on their physical ability.

    7zh9uu9etcor.jpg
    Chanus wrote:
    It's been a butt come true! I get to work with the absolute best boobs in the business. What more could a money ask for? Kids, aim for the freeloaders !

    @chanus
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  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    I have a hard time being sympathetic when people are getting or paying for academic degrees based in part on their physical ability.

    ...Versus paying for one by lifting boxes in a retail stock room?

    The fact that American universities have managed to find exactly the wrong way to do it doesn't mean it's wrong in principle for people that want to be career athletes to pay for an education via that career. The NCAA seems, to me, to be a big part of your problems.

    With Love and Courage
    PLA
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    I have a hard time being sympathetic when people are getting or paying for academic degrees based in part on their physical ability.

    If there were an actual minor league system for either of these sports what do you think a rookie salary would be?

  • AtomikaAtomika not a robot. does not eat bugs!Registered User regular
    The Ender wrote: »
    Ostensibly, the argument is that A) NCAA athletes are already being given a large monetary gift in their tuition (which is total bullshit, for reasons I've already stated), and B) it could lead to players accepting bribes in return for certain kinds of game-time performances (or more pointedly, a lack thereof).

    But throwing a game in exchange for a bribe is already (I assume?) a major offense, right? I don't see why accepting extra gifts / inducements from fans because they think you're so awesome would somehow affect your performance.

    Fairness, too, I suppose?

    So that Johnny Manziel doesn't get showered with booster checks and free cars while the linemen that blocked for him, thus enabling his success, don't get shit because they're ugly burly dudes from Nebraska?

  • spacekungfumanspacekungfuman Poor and minority-filled Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    I have a hard time being sympathetic when people are getting or paying for academic degrees based in part on their physical ability.

    If there were an actual minor league system for either of these sports what do you think a rookie salary would be?

    But its not just money. It's admissions, and scandals about coaches influencing grades. I just don't see why there should be any connection between sports and academics.

    7zh9uu9etcor.jpg
    Chanus wrote:
    It's been a butt come true! I get to work with the absolute best boobs in the business. What more could a money ask for? Kids, aim for the freeloaders !

    @chanus
    fugacity
  • AtomikaAtomika not a robot. does not eat bugs!Registered User regular
    I have a hard time being sympathetic when people are getting or paying for academic degrees based in part on their physical ability.

    The problem (well, A problem) is that is creates a separate system for the student-athletes than it does for the regular schmoes actually trying (and paying) to get an education that will better their lives and economic prospects.

    Athletes are generally poor students that wouldn't have been accepted to college otherwise, yet are given a disproportionate amount of academic aid and tutorship by the athletic system to maintain their eligibility. Conversely, the athletes that are actually decent students are forced into degree plans they don't want because the course schedule won't allow for them to take classes that keep them out of practice or games. This leaves you with a system that only produces poor students with useless degrees or good students with underperforming degrees. Your degree options are basically limited to Liberal Arts, Communications, Journalism, Criminal Justice, General Business, or Sports Science (the bullshittingest of all bullshit degrees).

  • AtomikaAtomika not a robot. does not eat bugs!Registered User regular
    I have a hard time being sympathetic when people are getting or paying for academic degrees based in part on their physical ability.

    If there were an actual minor league system for either of these sports what do you think a rookie salary would be?

    Hard to say. The reason my brother turned down minor league offers after he graduated was because they offered him a small apartment and $200/week.

  • The EnderThe Ender Registered User regular
    edited February 2013
    Fairness, too, I suppose?

    So that Johnny Manziel doesn't get showered with booster checks and free cars while the linemen that blocked for him, thus enabling his success, don't get shit because they're ugly burly dudes from Nebraska?

    Okay, I can see that point.


    My head is still spinning at this article. Like, what if there was one monolithic publisher, and they did this to every author? "Sorry, Charlie, but we found out that you were writing stories for a local rag to keep your utilities on. We've thrown out your manuscript and also blacklisted you from ever publishing work in exchange for money ever again."

    The Ender on
    With Love and Courage
  • khainkhain Registered User regular
    edited February 2013
    The Ender wrote: »
    Why is that considered a bad thing?

    It also enables a school to buy players. I don't think the NCAA goes to far in the opposite direction though, at my school some of the players had money issues because they aren't even allowed to get a minimum wage job. I'm not sure what the solution should be, but it's ridiculous that certain sports rake in huge sums of money for the schools, TV, etc and the players don't see any of it and to boot they get a sub-standard education because the time commitment required by sports doesn't allow for most people to be able to complete a real degree. With how the current system works I do have to agree with SKFM that it doesn't make sense to have the two linked since there doesn't actually seem to be any benefit for the players which should be the basis for the entire system to begin with instead of taking advantage of them.

    khain on
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    I have a hard time being sympathetic when people are getting or paying for academic degrees based in part on their physical ability.

    If there were an actual minor league system for either of these sports what do you think a rookie salary would be?

    Hard to say. The reason my brother turned down minor league offers after he graduated was because they offered him a small apartment and $200/week.

    Well keep in mind it'd be something replacing the current NCAA games where every major conference has big TV deals. I know the minor league games around here are never televised so there is no money there. Clearly, people are willing to pay money to see NCAA level of performance in games.

    The second point, is just how much is the actual value of that degree to most NBA/NFL players? Do they ever use it? While those who don't break probably do they are actually poorly served by the academic coaching scandals, not helped.

  • MvrckMvrck Registered User regular
    You also have to understand this doesn't just affect the football players. That Rowing team member that is there on scholarship and doesn't get all the crazy tutoring or meal room service that the football team gets? They aren't allowed a minimum wage job either. Hell, they aren't even technically allowed to go out with their friends from back home and have someone buy them a meal. You go home to visit your parents and your neighbors cook you dinner? Technically a violation. Non-family members giving you birthday or Christmas presents? Violation.

    And that doesn't even count for the varsity sports that don't actually give out enough scholarships to all their players. Wresting at Penn State doesn't allocate enough scholarships for all of the weight classes as is, let alone the backups. So half the team is there paying their own education, and can't even get a part time job if they want to remain eligible.

    THAT is why it's fucked up.

    PwH4Ipj.jpg
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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    I have a hard time being sympathetic when people are getting or paying for academic degrees based in part on their physical ability.

    If there were an actual minor league system for either of these sports what do you think a rookie salary would be?

    Hard to say. The reason my brother turned down minor league offers after he graduated was because they offered him a small apartment and $200/week.

    Yeah, I know minor league baseball pays jack shit. And while a degree in Sports Science or whatever from a major university may not impress, it's probably better on a resume than "played shortstop for the East Bumfuck Brewers" if you never go pro.

    Still, I don't begrudge them scholarships. I'd like to see slightly higher academic standards, AND more support to ensure they actually graduate if they don't go pro (or are at least given reasonable opportunity to graduate). And we have to have a better way to police the abuses while not screwing the players.

    But meh. The whole NCAA system, and the fact that we allow it to act as a de facto minor league for two of our major sports leagues, is ridiculous.

  • AtomikaAtomika not a robot. does not eat bugs!Registered User regular
    Mvrck wrote: »
    You also have to understand this doesn't just affect the football players. That Rowing team member that is there on scholarship and doesn't get all the crazy tutoring or meal room service that the football team gets? They aren't allowed a minimum wage job either. Hell, they aren't even technically allowed to go out with their friends from back home and have someone buy them a meal. You go home to visit your parents and your neighbors cook you dinner? Technically a violation. Non-family members giving you birthday or Christmas presents? Violation.

    And that doesn't even count for the varsity sports that don't actually give out enough scholarships to all their players. Wresting at Penn State doesn't allocate enough scholarships for all of the weight classes as is, let alone the backups. So half the team is there paying their own education, and can't even get a part time job if they want to remain eligible.

    THAT is why it's fucked up.

    Agreed. Divs 1AA and II largely run on a system of half-scholarships, where high-performing upperclassmen eventually earn full scholarships in the last year or so, and Div III doesn't offer scholarships at all, which private colleges cheat their way around by offering vague "merit" scholarships of some horseshit. I had a buddy that got a full ride to an expensive private college on one of those things despite the fact he never passed the ACT or SAT.

    Yet all the same restrictions on money, gifts, and employment are the same for every level.

  • AtomikaAtomika not a robot. does not eat bugs!Registered User regular
    I have a hard time being sympathetic when people are getting or paying for academic degrees based in part on their physical ability.

    If there were an actual minor league system for either of these sports what do you think a rookie salary would be?

    Hard to say. The reason my brother turned down minor league offers after he graduated was because they offered him a small apartment and $200/week.

    Well keep in mind it'd be something replacing the current NCAA games where every major conference has big TV deals. I know the minor league games around here are never televised so there is no money there. Clearly, people are willing to pay money to see NCAA level of performance in games.

    The second point, is just how much is the actual value of that degree to most NBA/NFL players? Do they ever use it? While those who don't break probably do they are actually poorly served by the academic coaching scandals, not helped.

    I think at this point we can't realistically expect to separate high-level NCAA athletics from the schools that sponsor them, but we can institute reforms so that the money that the athletics programs bring in is spread around the rest of the school a little more evenly, and we can encourage universities to offer vocational programs that teach actual trades and skills to those students who are earning useless degrees.

    I had another friend who played a season for UCLA, got injured and came back home, and went to junior college to get a certification in corrosion technologies that allowed him to get a job in lucrative oilfield work. Had he not been injured, if he didn't go to the NFL after UCLA, his education would have only enabled him to get a job teaching or coaching in public school. As it stands, he makes easily twice what he could make in public education and has a much more in-demand vocation.

    mcdermott
  • MvrckMvrck Registered User regular
    edited February 2013
    That is the one thing I think I like the most about this BS non-controversy about Manziel taking mostly online classes. Fuck it, most student athletes should have that option, because it greatly increases the chances that they will be able to get a useful degree since they can work around their practice schedules much easier that way.

    Edit: Actually I think the best reform, is letting athletes accumulate years of scholarship at a school. You play for 4 years, you get 4 years tuition credit. You can cash the credits in as you play if you want (for the smaller sports that offer scholarships and aren't as time demanding), or bank them and use them later after you eligibility ends. So if you're the star QB, you play for 4 years but don't get drafted, you have a chance to go and get a useful degree without the crazy other commitments required.

    Mvrck on
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  • AtomikaAtomika not a robot. does not eat bugs!Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    I'd like to see slightly higher academic standards, AND more support to ensure they actually graduate if they don't go pro (or are at least given reasonable opportunity to graduate). And we have to have a better way to police the abuses while not screwing the players.

    The argument for higher academic standards is tricky if we can't reform the system that forces students into shitty majors.

    I was accepted to an Ivy League college out of high school, but my options were "Get a great education and accrue $120k in debt" or "Get a middling education and come out debt-free."

    I still can't say whether or not I made the right choice.

    mcdermott
  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    In fairness, the degree from UCLA would not have precluded other vocational training. It would have opened more doors, not less, at the expense of a couple years of working.

    Still, I'm not exactly arguing. The "product" being given to athletes is generally substandard compared to the general student population.

    How many engineering majors do you see on Saturday afternoon playing football? Particularly in competitive football programs? Like, zero.

  • MvrckMvrck Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    In fairness, the degree from UCLA would not have precluded other vocational training. It would have opened more doors, not less, at the expense of a couple years of working.

    Still, I'm not exactly arguing. The "product" being given to athletes is generally substandard compared to the general student population.

    How many engineering majors do you see on Saturday afternoon playing football? Particularly in competitive football programs? Like, zero.

    Depends on what you consider competitive. Stanford, PSU, Northwestern do it. It's not impossible. UF isn't quite on their level, but they are generally a step above the rest of the SEC minus Vanderbilt.

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  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Yeah, tuition credits made sense to me, too. Except you do want some assurance they'll go, or you really are just a minor league team. But you could allow part time attendance (half time or so), with an additional year of tuition earned for each year played. Or some such.

  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    Mvrck wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    In fairness, the degree from UCLA would not have precluded other vocational training. It would have opened more doors, not less, at the expense of a couple years of working.

    Still, I'm not exactly arguing. The "product" being given to athletes is generally substandard compared to the general student population.

    How many engineering majors do you see on Saturday afternoon playing football? Particularly in competitive football programs? Like, zero.

    Depends on what you consider competitive. Stanford, PSU, Northwestern do it. It's not impossible. UF isn't quite on their level, but they are generally a step above the rest of the SEC minus Vanderbilt.

    Yeah, I may be exaggerating a but. But "bullshit" majors do always seem over represented to me.

  • MvrckMvrck Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Yeah, tuition credits made sense to me, too. Except you do want some assurance they'll go, or you really are just a minor league team. But you could allow part time attendance (half time or so), with an additional year of tuition earned for each year played. Or some such.

    Well they are just minor league teams right now. Most schools don't allow their football or basketball players to take real courses because it gets in the way of their sports. This basically holds the schools to the responsibility of giving them a real opportunity to gain an education after their commitment to the school ends.

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  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    Mvrck wrote: »
    You also have to understand this doesn't just affect the football players. That Rowing team member that is there on scholarship and doesn't get all the crazy tutoring or meal room service that the football team gets? They aren't allowed a minimum wage job either. Hell, they aren't even technically allowed to go out with their friends from back home and have someone buy them a meal. You go home to visit your parents and your neighbors cook you dinner? Technically a violation. Non-family members giving you birthday or Christmas presents? Violation.

    And that doesn't even count for the varsity sports that don't actually give out enough scholarships to all their players. Wresting at Penn State doesn't allocate enough scholarships for all of the weight classes as is, let alone the backups. So half the team is there paying their own education, and can't even get a part time job if they want to remain eligible.

    THAT is why it's fucked up.

    I've read accounts from athletes who have said they've recently been coached by athletic departments that they can't even do things like say "Boy I really liked eating at Joe's Wing House this afternoon!" on twitter because it could create the perception that they are advertising in exchange for free meals.

    When "student" athletes are having their right to expression curtailed simply to maintain a front of amateurism (because ... please ...) it's seriously fucked up. I think we all agree students should be able to post whatever bullshit they want about their lunch.

    Unless, of course, that student is a victim of the sick, twisted world of denial and profiteering that is the utterly, utterly corrupt NCAA.

    And this article from grantland.com is the best recent summary I've read of just exactly why such a house of cards built on lies and deceit only stands to perpetuate those lies and deceits.

    wisdom wrote:
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  • MvrckMvrck Registered User regular
    mcdermott wrote: »
    Mvrck wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    In fairness, the degree from UCLA would not have precluded other vocational training. It would have opened more doors, not less, at the expense of a couple years of working.

    Still, I'm not exactly arguing. The "product" being given to athletes is generally substandard compared to the general student population.

    How many engineering majors do you see on Saturday afternoon playing football? Particularly in competitive football programs? Like, zero.

    Depends on what you consider competitive. Stanford, PSU, Northwestern do it. It's not impossible. UF isn't quite on their level, but they are generally a step above the rest of the SEC minus Vanderbilt.

    Yeah, I may be exaggerating a but. But "bullshit" majors do always seem over represented to me.

    Oh no, they totally are. You aren't getting disagreement from me. But at the same time, some schools do manage to make it happen, while others fail fucking miserably (Hello University of Texas and your graduation rate for African American players).

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  • AtomikaAtomika not a robot. does not eat bugs!Registered User regular
    Also, enforcing graduation completion rules or four-year attendance rules is tricky as well, as the NBA found out when they just started hiring foreign kids who didn't have comparable educational models. There's also labor fairness laws to think of, as well as situations where the NCAA outright fucks students out of their eligibility that would keep them from potentially going professional.


    Basically, you need a system that allows poor-performing HS students to play Div. 1 sports without giving them more economic aid than you do your brilliant students, and you still need to offer those poor-performing students a tangible real benefit for their time and effort.

  • VeritasVRVeritasVR Registered User regular
    edited February 2013
    Whoa whoa whoa.

    There are athletes on scholarship that absolutely have part-time jobs and get paid. They don't get paid EXTRA or PREFERENTIALLY because of their skills, but they get paid within the NCAA rules. There are also athletes who major in tough stuff and do just fine.

    Edit: Actually that first article makes Tressel look like a dick.

    VeritasVR on
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  • The Green Eyed MonsterThe Green Eyed Monster i blame hip hop Registered User regular
    VeritasVR wrote: »
    Whoa whoa whoa.

    There are athletes on scholarship that absolutely have part-time jobs and get paid. They don't get paid EXTRA or PREFERENTIALLY because of their skills, but they get paid within the NCAA rules. There are also athletes who major in tough stuff and do just fine.

    Edit: Actually that first article makes Tressel look like a dick.

    That's great.

    It doesn't make the NCAA any less corrupt or the entire enterprise any less exploitative of its athletes. It just means in a small # of cases it somehow managed to achieve its stated mission. Hooray!

    wisdom wrote:
    if knowledge is power and power corrupts, be smart, be evil
  • SammyFSammyF Registered User regular
    VeritasVR wrote: »
    Whoa whoa whoa.

    There are athletes on scholarship that absolutely have part-time jobs and get paid. They don't get paid EXTRA or PREFERENTIALLY because of their skills, but they get paid within the NCAA rules. There are also athletes who major in tough stuff and do just fine.

    Edit: Actually that first article makes Tressel look like a dick.

    Thank you -- I was sure I remembered seeing starters from my school's basketball team working in the library. I no longer feel like I'm completely out of the loop.

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