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Fuck The NCAA: We Own Your Likeness Edition

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Posts

  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    So when did the NCAA stop beating its wife?

    Never, apparently.

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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    lazegamer wrote: »
    The cartel thing didn't come up unbidden. The attorney was explaining to the judge the difference between two different conceptions of cartel from testimony. Had he tried to mince words to avoid saying cartel, the judge would probably have been unappreciative. Makes for a good twitter post though.

    The cartel thing didn't come up unbidden because the economic expert that the NCAA was using didn't have a definition for Cartel which did not include the NCAA and had to make up a new definition on the spot
    . Rubinfeld, an economics professor at the University of California-Berkeley and an important NCAA expert, explicitly wrote in a microeconomics textbook more than 25 years ago that the NCAA is a cartel. The textbook has been reprinted with the same passages through the years.

    “The cartel organization is the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA),” Rubinfeld's textbook said. “The NCAA restricts competition in a number of important ways. To reduce bargaining power by student-athletes, the NCAA creates and enforces rules regarding eligibility and terms of compensation.”

    wbBv3fj.png
  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    The push back on this is going to get ugly, though. Because the argument in the public is about paying players directly, rather than the more obvious nature of the O'Bannion lawsuit being about the players not receiving a cut for the use of their likenesses. Today, I heard a local radio sportstalk crew bring up women's athletics.

    See if you can guess where it goes before I get there.



    Collegiate football (and, to a lesser extent, basketball) is the sports that make money for colleges. Obviously the players on these teams are the ones who are generating money for the school. Therefore, they have the right to claim some of the profits. But, what about those on sports who don't generate much, if any, money for schools? Like, say, Women's Swimming?

    To paraphrase: Ladies, those scholarships are your compensation. Start working hard to earn them because Title IX requires they be made available.


    Taking it to the logical extreme makes me feel dirty just thinking about it.


    This is going to get worse before it gets better. If ever.

  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    I have never really understood the title IX objection to paying players

    I mean okay, you are required to offer women the same number of scholarships as men. How that bears on whether players publicity rights (or even a portion of the revenue they generate) has never been clear to me

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    do you lack faith, brother?
    or do you believe?
  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    I'm pretty sure it's because the narrative that is debated is playing players. Not likeness compensation (or whatever you'd call it). Most women's sports don't generate money. But come to that, most men's sports don't either. So the debate settles on the moneymaking sports and people just take the argument to the next step when they point out that football pays for everything else.


    Also, Title IX objections come up when, to follow the rules, schools have to provide as many scholarships for women as they do for men. 75+ football scholarships means 75+ equivalent women's scholarships in whatever other sport they can make a team for. Otherwise, they'd be able to give them to deserving men in sports that matter mirite!

    That fact that essentially nothing else makes any money is icing on that cake. I wouldn't be surprised if more forward-thinking neanderthals aren't considering how they can use this to weaken or remove Title IX entirely.

  • lazegamerlazegamer Registered User regular
    Goumindong wrote: »
    lazegamer wrote: »
    The cartel thing didn't come up unbidden. The attorney was explaining to the judge the difference between two different conceptions of cartel from testimony. Had he tried to mince words to avoid saying cartel, the judge would probably have been unappreciative. Makes for a good twitter post though.

    The cartel thing didn't come up unbidden because the economic expert that the NCAA was using didn't have a definition for Cartel which did not include the NCAA and had to make up a new definition on the spot
    . Rubinfeld, an economics professor at the University of California-Berkeley and an important NCAA expert, explicitly wrote in a microeconomics textbook more than 25 years ago that the NCAA is a cartel. The textbook has been reprinted with the same passages through the years.

    “The cartel organization is the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA),” Rubinfeld's textbook said. “The NCAA restricts competition in a number of important ways. To reduce bargaining power by student-athletes, the NCAA creates and enforces rules regarding eligibility and terms of compensation.”

    The point I was trying to make is that the NCAA's lawyer isn't an idiot for referring to the NCAA as a cartel given the context (and that twitter quotes are great for lols). Not that the NCAA isn't a cartel or at least has a lot of similarity to one.

    Surprise.
    - Spy
  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    edited June 2014
    I mean, their fundamental argument is that yes, we are de jure (if not explicitly statutory) monopoly, and that the monopoly structure is necessary for us to do business.

    of course, the whole thing kind of collapses if players are considered employees; that means the NCAA members are conspiring to fix wages, which obviously they aren't because if they were it would imply that players were entitled to sue and/or collectively bargain for a portion of revenue

    Eat it You Nasty Pig. on
    NREqxl5.jpg
    do you lack faith, brother?
    or do you believe?
  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    But players aren't employees...

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    But players aren't employees...

    How are they not?

  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    Because they don't get paid, duh!

  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Because they don't get paid, duh!

    Congratulations. Now I have to go buy another Poe-enabled ironometer.

    You're getting the bill.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Because they don't get paid, duh!

    That just means they are unpaid employees.

  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Because they don't get paid, duh!

    That just means they are unpaid employees.

    Volunteers!

  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    So does this make all of those communications degrees a form of company scrip?

    RedTide#1907 on Battle.net
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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    RedTide wrote: »
    So does this make all of those communications degrees a form of company scrip?

    Only in Bristol.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    lazegamer wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    lazegamer wrote: »
    The cartel thing didn't come up unbidden. The attorney was explaining to the judge the difference between two different conceptions of cartel from testimony. Had he tried to mince words to avoid saying cartel, the judge would probably have been unappreciative. Makes for a good twitter post though.

    The cartel thing didn't come up unbidden because the economic expert that the NCAA was using didn't have a definition for Cartel which did not include the NCAA and had to make up a new definition on the spot
    . Rubinfeld, an economics professor at the University of California-Berkeley and an important NCAA expert, explicitly wrote in a microeconomics textbook more than 25 years ago that the NCAA is a cartel. The textbook has been reprinted with the same passages through the years.

    “The cartel organization is the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA),” Rubinfeld's textbook said. “The NCAA restricts competition in a number of important ways. To reduce bargaining power by student-athletes, the NCAA creates and enforces rules regarding eligibility and terms of compensation.”

    The point I was trying to make is that the NCAA's lawyer isn't an idiot for referring to the NCAA as a cartel given the context (and that twitter quotes are great for lols). Not that the NCAA isn't a cartel or at least has a lot of similarity to one.

    Actually, the lawyer is, because he just handed Kessler ammo.

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  • lazegamerlazegamer Registered User regular
    lazegamer wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    lazegamer wrote: »
    The cartel thing didn't come up unbidden. The attorney was explaining to the judge the difference between two different conceptions of cartel from testimony. Had he tried to mince words to avoid saying cartel, the judge would probably have been unappreciative. Makes for a good twitter post though.

    The cartel thing didn't come up unbidden because the economic expert that the NCAA was using didn't have a definition for Cartel which did not include the NCAA and had to make up a new definition on the spot
    . Rubinfeld, an economics professor at the University of California-Berkeley and an important NCAA expert, explicitly wrote in a microeconomics textbook more than 25 years ago that the NCAA is a cartel. The textbook has been reprinted with the same passages through the years.

    “The cartel organization is the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA),” Rubinfeld's textbook said. “The NCAA restricts competition in a number of important ways. To reduce bargaining power by student-athletes, the NCAA creates and enforces rules regarding eligibility and terms of compensation.”

    The point I was trying to make is that the NCAA's lawyer isn't an idiot for referring to the NCAA as a cartel given the context (and that twitter quotes are great for lols). Not that the NCAA isn't a cartel or at least has a lot of similarity to one.

    Actually, the lawyer is, because he just handed Kessler ammo.

    Since no one is arguing that the NCAA doesn't collude, since you know... competitive athletics have to pretty much by definition, the cartel label is just a good sound bite more appropriate for a jury trial.

    Surprise.
    - Spy
  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    So just how do you tell 12 people not smart enough to get out of jury duty that there can be such things as good cartels.

    I mean, sure the Medellín Cartel were filled with horrible people who murdered thousands to expand their market, but at least they weren't the Cali Cartel.

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    It's not a jury trial.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    NCAA lawyer: there would be loss of historic rivalries if some schools paid, some didn't, would destroy what makes fans love college sports.

    This would be a great argument if, as I have mentioned once or twice, the conferences weren't doing that themselves in their neverending lust for money.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    VeritasVR
  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    NCAA lawyer: there would be loss of historic rivalries if some schools paid, some didn't, would destroy what makes fans love college sports.

    This would be a great argument if, as I have mentioned once or twice, the conferences weren't doing that themselves in their neverending lust for money.

    It would be a great argument if it was even true. I mean, how? How would there be a lost of historic rivalries? Would Michigan no longer be able to schedule Appalachian State?


    You could defeat AIs with this crazypants logic.

  • PhyphorPhyphor Building Planet Busters Tasting FruitRegistered User regular
    NCAA lawyer: there would be loss of historic rivalries if some schools paid, some didn't, would destroy what makes fans love college sports.

    This would be a great argument if, as I have mentioned once or twice, the conferences weren't doing that themselves in their neverending lust for money.

    It would be a great argument if it was even true. I mean, how? How would there be a lost of historic rivalries? Would Michigan no longer be able to schedule Appalachian State?


    You could defeat AIs with this crazypants logic.

    Presumably it wouldn't be much of a rivalry once the paying school consistently beat the non paying school all the time

    Magic Box
    Academician Prokhor "Phyphor" Zakharov, Chief Scientist of China, Provost of the University of Planet - SE++ Megagame
  • MvrckMvrck Registered User regular
    Phyphor wrote: »
    NCAA lawyer: there would be loss of historic rivalries if some schools paid, some didn't, would destroy what makes fans love college sports.

    This would be a great argument if, as I have mentioned once or twice, the conferences weren't doing that themselves in their neverending lust for money.

    It would be a great argument if it was even true. I mean, how? How would there be a lost of historic rivalries? Would Michigan no longer be able to schedule Appalachian State?


    You could defeat AIs with this crazypants logic.

    Presumably it wouldn't be much of a rivalry once the paying school consistently beat the non paying school all the time

    This already happens, even with schools that are supposed to be on equal footing in the same conference! Against the two newest members of the Big 10 (Rutgers and Maryland), Penn State is a combinded 57-3-1. Indiana just got their first win ever against Penn State, and they've been in the same conference for twenty years at this point. It took a sanction laddled squad full of injuries and a freshman QB on the road with possibly the most confusingly called game by an otherwise competent offensive coordinator (Indiana was almost dead last against the run last year, and Penn State was passing more than running going into the 4th quarter) just to get them that win.

    The idea that schools are on equal footing right now is downright preposterous.

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    JaysonFourgjaustin
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Because they don't get paid, duh!

    That just means they are unpaid employees.

    Volunteers!

    Call it a work-study program.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    lazegamer wrote: »
    lazegamer wrote: »
    Goumindong wrote: »
    lazegamer wrote: »
    The cartel thing didn't come up unbidden. The attorney was explaining to the judge the difference between two different conceptions of cartel from testimony. Had he tried to mince words to avoid saying cartel, the judge would probably have been unappreciative. Makes for a good twitter post though.

    The cartel thing didn't come up unbidden because the economic expert that the NCAA was using didn't have a definition for Cartel which did not include the NCAA and had to make up a new definition on the spot
    . Rubinfeld, an economics professor at the University of California-Berkeley and an important NCAA expert, explicitly wrote in a microeconomics textbook more than 25 years ago that the NCAA is a cartel. The textbook has been reprinted with the same passages through the years.

    “The cartel organization is the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA),” Rubinfeld's textbook said. “The NCAA restricts competition in a number of important ways. To reduce bargaining power by student-athletes, the NCAA creates and enforces rules regarding eligibility and terms of compensation.”

    The point I was trying to make is that the NCAA's lawyer isn't an idiot for referring to the NCAA as a cartel given the context (and that twitter quotes are great for lols). Not that the NCAA isn't a cartel or at least has a lot of similarity to one.

    Actually, the lawyer is, because he just handed Kessler ammo.

    Since no one is arguing that the NCAA doesn't collude, since you know... competitive athletics have to pretty much by definition, the cartel label is just a good sound bite more appropriate for a jury trial.

    No, there's a very big reason why the NCAA has been twisting the English language into knots to avoid the word "cartel" - there's a lawsuit in the wings that is about exactly that. The Kessler suit (named for the lawyer who is heading it) is asserting that the NCAA and the major conferences form an illegal wage-fixing cartel. The NCAA having to discuss what sort of cartel they are in this case just handed him a massive boost to his case.

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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    It's not a jury trial.

    Which makes it harder. Its easier to convince 12 rubes that this cartel is OK because of the good things it does. Its harder to convince a judge who can actually go read anti-trust law and can know that even if a cartel "does good things" its still illegal.

    The sticking point they're using is saying that amateurism is a pro-competitive effect and thus a legitimate reason for price fixing. A jury might see that and see the law that kind of but doesn't quite say its ok to price fix for a pro-comptitive effect*

    *Basically if there is a pro-competitive effect its hard to quantify whether or not its actual collusion, because theoretically the effect should happen regardless of whether or not you're price fixing. The anti-trust catch is that this was written in a "lower prices" manner because most anti-trust was concerned with the damage to consumers and not the damage to labor. Monopsony law is not nearly as robust as monopoly law.

    wbBv3fj.png
  • AspectVoidAspectVoid Registered User regular
    As far as I know, there are currently three major lawsuits going on against the NCAA by former players.

    O'Bannon - Players should be able to profit from NIL. No other discussion about wages or paying players.

    Kessler - Anti-Trust claim that the NCAA is price fixing the services of players at $0 and unlawfully caps player compensation as a scholarship.

    Alston - Suing the NCAA because he claims that the Power Five conferences would have provided "Cost of Living" stipends except that they are tied to collusive agreements with smaller Division I conferences.

    Currently, the Kessler and Alston cases have been merged together by a higher court, but there is some thought that Wilken may send Kessler's case back to New Jersey (where it was originally filed) because that case is too different from Alston's.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    When the Democrats and Republicans are both dogpiling you in a Senate hearing, that's a sign that the NCAA is not well liked.

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  • tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    When the Democrats and Republicans are both dogpiling you in a Senate hearing, that's a sign that the NCAA is not well liked.

    Yes and no. Those piranhas would lambaste their own grandma for making chocolate chip instead of snicker-doodle if it would get them a soundbite on cable news.

    How do you spell Justice?B D S Non-Violent Resistance to Israel Apartheid & Occupation.
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    When the Democrats and Republicans are both dogpiling you in a Senate hearing, that's a sign that the NCAA is not well liked.

    Yes and no. Those piranhas would lambaste their own grandma for making chocolate chip instead of snicker-doodle if it would get them a soundbite on cable news.

    That said, can you think of a more deserving punching bag than Emmert?

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    JaysonFour
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    SEC smells blood, goes in for the kill.

    If there is any group more horrible than the NCAA, it's the SEC.

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  • knitdanknitdan Registered User regular
    Fuck Firearm Fetishism
    86 45
  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    It's too little, too late.

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  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Ho Ho Ho Disconnecting from Xbox LIVERegistered User regular
    Oddly (or not), Div. 1-A football players still want EA to make the yearly NCAA game.
    “I’m a little disappointed the game is gone. Every year all of the college guys would be excited to see our faces in the college game and pretend to be ourselves,” Boston College center Andy Gallik told CBS Sports.

    I've no real comment here. Just pointing out that this shit is far from over no matter what happens in court.

  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Oddly (or not), Div. 1-A football players still want EA to make the yearly NCAA game.
    “I’m a little disappointed the game is gone. Every year all of the college guys would be excited to see our faces in the college game and pretend to be ourselves,” Boston College center Andy Gallik told CBS Sports.

    I've no real comment here. Just pointing out that this shit is far from over no matter what happens in court.

    EA would love to make it too. But after a multimillion dollar fucking courtesy of the NCAA, they have said that they refuse to do so unless they can properly license player NIL rights.

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  • Eat it You Nasty Pig.Eat it You Nasty Pig. tell homeland security 'we are the bomb'Registered User regular
    I mean obviously all the players liked it, because they knew what we knew. I'm sure it's even cooler to be in a video game than to play as your alma mater's team, even if you're just a backup lineman or whatever

    there'll be NCAA football games again in a couple years; EA just needs this suit to resolve so that they know what their liability is. Then it'll either just be a matter of paying the NCAA, or whatever other entity winds up managing players' publicity rights

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    or do you believe?
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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Deadspin has an excellent piece discussing the difference between the two schools of NCAA reform - those who want to bring in the free market, and those who want to turn back the clock.

    Edit: And when a commenter pointed out that the author was being a bit overly optimistic about free markets, the author wrote a response, agreeing with the point and noting how regulations are used to rein in those abuses.

    AngelHedgie on
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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    You can hear the author talk about similar issues on the Blackheart Goldpodcast, here.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    http://deadspin.com/obannon-ruling-ncaa-loses-1618498119

    The NCAA doesn't own their likeness anymore.

    wbBv3fj.png
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