Now that I've put some time into Dota 2 (which actually has a functional "vs. AI" mode so I don't have to play in the competitive arena and I can just play with however many friends I have online) I understand some of the concepts more.
League has a very functional versus AI mode as well. Just throwing that out there.
It may have changed since, but when I played, you could only play against AI in the "Co-op Vs. Ai mode", which forced you to join with other players if you don't have 4 friends. In Dota2, you can play 2v2, 4v4, or whatever, or fill the empty slots on either team with bots. The bots have various difficulty settings, and the hard setting is actually pretty challenging (I'm still pretty new, but I've never beat them). Whereas in LoL the AI simply doesn't play well enough, so people just use it to practice with unfamiliar heroes and get mad at you even when they win because you didn't win by enough.
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TetraNitroCubaneNot Angry...Just VERY Disappointed...Registered Userregular
These types of games baffle and scare me.
My friends have been pushing me to play DotA2 (because it seems to be all they play anymore) and I just can't get into it. The strict attitude of 'You must play this game this way, or we lose and it's your fault' just seems like pressure and stress to me. I kind of want to play a game to have fun in my own way, not follow someone's guide or get yelled at.
I used to have a group of friends who regularly played LoL together, and we actually won many victories just because we took full advantage of the predictability of the meta-game. If the other team had a jungler, we sometimes would take the whole team to just outside the sight range of where junglers start the game. We'd jump him, and kill their jungler before the game was 2 minutes old, and then disperse to our normal lanes. Sometimes just doing that alone was enough to incite a rage-quit.
Anyone else get Ender's Game feels from this? Suddenly I'm really interested in getting a group of friends to fuck with the meta with me.
I used to have a group of friends who regularly played LoL together, and we actually won many victories just because we took full advantage of the predictability of the meta-game. If the other team had a jungler, we sometimes would take the whole team to just outside the sight range of where junglers start the game. We'd jump him, and kill their jungler before the game was 2 minutes old, and then disperse to our normal lanes. Sometimes just doing that alone was enough to incite a rage-quit.
Anyone else get Ender's Game feels from this? Suddenly I'm really interested in getting a group of friends to fuck with the meta with me.
The neat part about LoL is that the meta has evolved to prevent things like this. It's now commonplace to station a champion at every jungle entrance to spot possible invades such as this and react appropriately. It's behavior that's just expected of players at a certain level. There are strategies that revolve around having a strong level 1 team (lots of cc) so that you can invade their jungle and come out on top of a level one fight and put their team behind from the beginning of the game.
I used to have a group of friends who regularly played LoL together, and we actually won many victories just because we took full advantage of the predictability of the meta-game. If the other team had a jungler, we sometimes would take the whole team to just outside the sight range of where junglers start the game. We'd jump him, and kill their jungler before the game was 2 minutes old, and then disperse to our normal lanes. Sometimes just doing that alone was enough to incite a rage-quit.
Anyone else get Ender's Game feels from this? Suddenly I'm really interested in getting a group of friends to fuck with the meta with me.
Of note: Jungle invades are so deliriously part of the meta I'm not sure where this guy is getting the idea that it's something gameshattering. Maybe before level 30 people won't be expecting this, but "fucking with the meta" is pretty hard these days since the only part that's really set in stone is the 1-1-2 lane setup.
Now, in PUGs, adherence to the AD/support bot lane will generally be expected, because it's established as working really effectively and when playing with strangers who are relying on you to help them win, they can't count on your special snowflake strategy as much as they can on something tried and true. If you talk to them in champion select though, and present your case, people are generally agreeable, in my experience. When they aren't agreeable is when you just decide to do something without a word otherwise.
My friends have been pushing me to play DotA2 (because it seems to be all they play anymore) and I just can't get into it. The strict attitude of 'You must play this game this way, or we lose and it's your fault' just seems like pressure and stress to me. I kind of want to play a game to have fun in my own way, not follow someone's guide or get yelled at.
Eh, it's not 'we lose because you weren't playing this way' so much as you'd probably lose because you'd start off not understanding WHY you're doing half the stuff you're doing.
DOTA's actually very good in that once you understand it you can be pretty stupid with stuff that you do (see Orb of Venom roaming Witch Doctor).
I tend to judge communities by how much hassle moderating their threads has proven to be. The LoL thread here had to be specifically mentioned in the rules thread.
I used to have a group of friends who regularly played LoL together, and we actually won many victories just because we took full advantage of the predictability of the meta-game. If the other team had a jungler, we sometimes would take the whole team to just outside the sight range of where junglers start the game. We'd jump him, and kill their jungler before the game was 2 minutes old, and then disperse to our normal lanes. Sometimes just doing that alone was enough to incite a rage-quit.
Anyone else get Ender's Game feels from this? Suddenly I'm really interested in getting a group of friends to fuck with the meta with me.
Of note: Jungle invades are so deliriously part of the meta I'm not sure where this guy is getting the idea that it's something gameshattering. Maybe before level 30 people won't be expecting this, but "fucking with the meta" is pretty hard these days since the only part that's really set in stone is the 1-1-2 lane setup.
Now, in PUGs, adherence to the AD/support bot lane will generally be expected, because it's established as working really effectively and when playing with strangers who are relying on you to help them win, they can't count on your special snowflake strategy as much as they can on something tried and true. If you talk to them in champion select though, and present your case, people are generally agreeable, in my experience. When they aren't agreeable is when you just decide to do something without a word otherwise.
Dude. Don't get all pretentious about your current meta knowledge of LoL. When I was going into the jungle with my friends to murder the other team's jungler, there was not a name for it. "Jungle Invade" was not a thing and was definitely not a part of the meta. This was like a year ago that we did this. And it certainly caught them off guard and was unexpected. And they did not post sentries or anything to watch for this behavior.
Maybe what I did a year ago helped influence what the current meta is. But at the time, we weren't trying to influence the meta. We were just trying to get easy wins by taking advantage of how predictable the current meta was at the time.
Now, in PUGs, adherence to the AD/support bot lane will generally be expected, because it's established as working really effectively and when playing with strangers who are relying on you to help them win, they can't count on your special snowflake strategy as much as they can on something tried and true. If you talk to them in champion select though, and present your case, people are generally agreeable, in my experience. When they aren't agreeable is when you just decide to do something without a word otherwise.
I'm thinking not to just try something "special snowflake"-y on my own so much as do it in coordination with a team of friends specifically chosen. You'd need to use Vent or some kind of teamspeak rather than relying text chat so I'm not sure how well that'd work in Dota 2 (fairly sure most games are expected to be a random match) but it'd be interesting to see. I'm sure people have been trying this already though, if it's possible.
Ignore the douchebags, play with people you like, and don't get mad. People have been assholes in every online game I've ever played. If you find the game itself fun, ignore the angry whiners and move on.
I've done kill lane compositions bottom quite a bit (Leona/J4 ), I've also done 1v2s and 2v1s. If people complained about odd composition it was more than likely because they themselves couldn't adjust their play to handle it.
Anyone who hasn't tried 5 tank/5 smite hasn't truly lived.
I used to have a group of friends who regularly played LoL together, and we actually won many victories just because we took full advantage of the predictability of the meta-game. If the other team had a jungler, we sometimes would take the whole team to just outside the sight range of where junglers start the game. We'd jump him, and kill their jungler before the game was 2 minutes old, and then disperse to our normal lanes. Sometimes just doing that alone was enough to incite a rage-quit.
Anyone else get Ender's Game feels from this? Suddenly I'm really interested in getting a group of friends to fuck with the meta with me.
Of note: Jungle invades are so deliriously part of the meta I'm not sure where this guy is getting the idea that it's something gameshattering. Maybe before level 30 people won't be expecting this, but "fucking with the meta" is pretty hard these days since the only part that's really set in stone is the 1-1-2 lane setup.
Now, in PUGs, adherence to the AD/support bot lane will generally be expected, because it's established as working really effectively and when playing with strangers who are relying on you to help them win, they can't count on your special snowflake strategy as much as they can on something tried and true. If you talk to them in champion select though, and present your case, people are generally agreeable, in my experience. When they aren't agreeable is when you just decide to do something without a word otherwise.
Even if you do that, people will change their tune if you do actually do well. Had some guy surprise last pick Taric but after duo support bot Taric and Soraka were up like five kills Taric was a hero.
... One's champion picks should be taken not with solely your own 'fun' into account...
Computer: programmable, usually electronic device that can store, retrieve and process data.
Game: : activity engaged in for diversion, amusement, or fun.
Seems to me then that the original point of the software is lost then... new definition perhaps? Computer Racial Epithet Generator? Computer Aneurism Creator 2013? Computer Job?
Job: a specific duty, role, or function
Huh, sure fits better than game. Good thing you aren't playing one of those, I heard you have actual fun in them. But don't tell anyone. They might rage at you for deriving pleasure when you should be suiting up and falling in to line grunt.
Also, to Blackhawk...one thing about LoL is that games take a good bit of time. And most people who play derive more fun from winning than playing the exact champ they want to play. When one person ruins a game for a team, and it's going to take 20 mins for that game to end even it's completely one-sided, you kind of see how the good of the team is generally more important than the fun-having-ness of one person that's derived from playing said specific champ. Chances are there are other champs that person could play that fill a similar role or play in the same style and would benefit the team more greatly. The game definitely isn't for everyone.
DrDreidel on
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AdaTheDobieDemon Hunter for HireTime RiftRegistered Userregular
Yeah, that is a fair point, my statement takes a rather narrow view for the sake of humor and generalizations, and the team dynamic and the fun of winning certainly has it's appeal and place, but when that team dynamic is raised to levels bordering on the absurd, fun doesn't seem to even be in the picture. That's the problem I see primarily, not that it is a team game that does require certain amounts of expected communication and play, but that fun has become so completely secondary to "the meta" that calling it just a straight "game" is no longer accurate. I'd say "sport" but I refuse to consider sitting in front of a glowing screen and pushing buttons even remotely that. Take that all and couple it with a toxic player-base that seriously leaves me questioning how some of these people actually hold jobs and have any kind of relationship with other human beings, and you have a rather sad state of affairs.
I remember in the original DotA @JAEF would yell at me for "feeding" the other team or whatever, which meant dying once and giving them XP to level up I guess.
I swear lol speak is its own language entirely. Like I get that WoW and MMO's have their own lingo but you can almost read between the lines on words like tank, and DPS. Where as LoL speak is using words I think I know like Meta, and using them in ways I have no idea. Like I have no idea what the hell gabe is saying in panel 2.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Take that all and couple it with a toxic player-base that seriously leaves me questioning how some of these people actually hold jobs and have any kind of relationship with other human beings, and you have a rather sad state of affairs.
The key to having fun in LoL is playing with people you know to be solid bros. Almost every time someone is toxic in this game, I just assume they're probably a kid who doesn't know any better. I find the most effective way to deal with these players is to straight up mute them when they start with the negative crap. I almost wish there was a way to verify that I am, in fact, an adult and want to play with other players who are adults who are looking to have a good time playing a game without making vague threats to other people's mothers.
Interesting that you feel like LoL is more of a sport than game, because it's certainly he direction Riot seems to be heading. The thing is though, at low levels of play (which is the level that almost all players play at) almost anything can work with enough communication. I've been on the losing end of matches where the other team does something unconventional and I just don't have the wherewithal to organize and communicate with my team in such a way that shuts down the so-called cheese strats. One barrier to this is that there is no voice chat with pubs in game (thank god). Typing out elaborate strategies and counter-strategies takes you away from farming and harassing and doing all the other things the game requires of you.
People who refuse to allow that a game might have SOME proscribed meta and still be fun just aren't going to enjoy MOBA's. That's perfectly ok, it's just part of the more competitive nature of this type of game.
If some dude showed up to play football and was all, "No, see, I know I'm the Right Guard, but I don't want to protect the quarterback, I want to play more like a wide receiver" he'd also get some funny looks. It's a strained metaphor, but it's sort of applicable. There are different formations that apply different player types and skill sets in different ways, but there's still some basic concepts that apply at play even slightly above screwing around.
Of note: for people who just want to do whatever for fun and play around, there are game types just for you. ARAM's, for instance, are a great way to play that screwy way.
As for strict adherence to the 1-1-2 meta, and calling it a "cargo cult," I'm not sure that's really totally true. The 1-1-2 is pretty standard because it's sort of the baseline opening that everyone understands. It's not that there aren't other ways to play effectively, but the other ways require more complex communication and coordination. You'll see them more often when all the players know each other, but if it's all people solo, 1-1-2 is the most effective because it allows for a jungle, double coverage of dragon (which is why 2 go bot instead of top) and a vulnerable champ mid, which is the hardest spot to gank.
If you go 2 top, you lose that double coverage of dragon. By default you've weakened your team by potentially giving up some dragon kills. You can overcome this through good play, by a team using their advantage top to dominate that lane unexpectedly, but it requires good coordination.
If you go 2 mid, you don't take advantage of having a solo mid AP carry there mostly safe from ganks.
If you don't jungle, you have a slower experience and gold growth curve on average across the team.
There's certainly ways to subvert the dominant meta, but the default meta is the most efficient for the lowest common denominator player make-up, and gives you the most reliable results the most consistently.
Here's the key people are missing: LoL mostly isn't a relaxing game. LoL mostly is a competitive game. Yeah, it's not fun to a lot of people. That's perfectly fine, there's lots of games out there for lots of people to play.
LoL is a game that people play because they want to have a competition to be the best at something. They still want to have fun, but it's a fun that follows from trying to get better at something.
I swear lol speak is its own language entirely. Like I get that WoW and MMO's have their own lingo but you can almost read between the lines on words like tank, and DPS. Where as LoL speak is using words I think I know like Meta, and using them in ways I have no idea. Like I have no idea what the hell gabe is saying in panel 2.
LoL lingo is definitely obtuse, but it's not complicated. You still have tanks and DPS. The most game specific lingo is as such:
ADC: Combination of two things, it's a carry (term from Dota referring to a character who does very well late game and can carry your team if he has lots of kills) and AD (attack damage, does most damage with basic attacks rather than spells). AP: Ability power, damage done with spells Lanes: The map is divided into 3 lanes: top, middle and botom. Support: Not necessarily a healer, though some supports do heal. Champions who have lots of utility that don't require gold to be effective. Their role in the beginning of the game is to go with the ADC to help them get kills so the ADC can carry later. ADC's need items to be effective, and items cost gold, which you get from killing things. Jungle: The area between the lanes which contain neutral camps you can kill for gold and buffs. Junglers roam the map and help lanes get kills. I could explain why the jungle role exists but it would take some time to fully explain why the 1 top, 1 mid, 2 bot lane meta is the way it is.
I swear lol speak is its own language entirely. Like I get that WoW and MMO's have their own lingo but you can almost read between the lines on words like tank, and DPS. Where as LoL speak is using words I think I know like Meta, and using them in ways I have no idea. Like I have no idea what the hell gabe is saying in panel 2.
If you step way, way back, tank and DPS aren't at all self-evident meanings, it's just that they've been in the gaming vernacular so long that they seem obvious. A tank is... a mobile weapons platform that can be operated with a small crew, usually has a big cannon. A DPS is... double penetration system? Oh, damage per second. Wait, how is a person a damage per second?
MOBA's just haven't been around a slong, and the language is more specific to that game type. I don't really think MMO language is any less specialized, it's just that more people play MMO"s and they've been around longer.
I just don't see MMO speak combo'd as much is what I'm saying. I mean DrDreidel's explinations contain other terms that are equally as confusing. Where as if I'm explaining to someone what a tank does in an mmo I can go "He's the guy with the highest hit points/defense who keeps the boss focused on him and not us."
If you're playing an MMO than I can assume you know basic rpg terms so its not a huge stretch, where as LoL and its bretheren is like a completely different world. Also the competitive nature of the game seems to take the worst of the L2P mindset and demand it of anyone and that doesn't mean fun times for me, I mean I'm glad you all can enjoy it even if seemingly the only time I see people post about LoL is to say how much they hated playing with people...
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
I swear lol speak is its own language entirely. Like I get that WoW and MMO's have their own lingo but you can almost read between the lines on words like tank, and DPS. Where as LoL speak is using words I think I know like Meta, and using them in ways I have no idea. Like I have no idea what the hell gabe is saying in panel 2.
If I've got it right, Meta is taking into account what strategies pros use for a given game.
So.
Pro's mostly use X -> X is the best -> WHY AREN'T YOU USING X NOOB, STICK TO THE META
North America Meta I assume refers to the North American LoL competitions?
That's what I puzzled out after reading the thread. When I read the comic I assumed there was some kind of injoke that all the LoL people liked and it was confusing.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Meta isn't LoL speak, it's competitive gaming speak. I think I first saw it used in reference to Magic: The Gathering.
It means meta-game, and it specifically references the basic strategies that are popular in your gaming community. For Magic, you might have a local meta (the guy who wins every Friday night tournament sure loves green/black) and the National meta. For an online game, it's basically everyone who plays in your region-lock.
Also, with the advent of online everything, like netdecking in Magic (copying a popular deck list that you found online), the concept of local metas is slowly dissolving.
Meta, or "Meta-Game" game doesn't even necessarily have to do with the Pros. It just has to do with trends. It's basically what other genres call "Flavor of the Week."
And the idea of a Meta-Game extends to almost any hobby in which people play competitively. There's a Magic the Gathering meta. Certain cards rise in popularity for a time, strategies emerge to defeat the common decks, and the meta evolves.
That's just the nature of competitive gaming.
Even sports have a meta, although they don't really call it such.
If I've got it right, Meta is taking into account what strategies pros use for a given game.
So.
Pro's mostly use X -> X is the best -> WHY AREN'T YOU USING X NOOB, STICK TO THE META
North America Meta I assume refers to the North American LoL competitions?
Not quite. The meta evolved around the most efficient way to accrue gold and XP as a team. Solo lanes get more xp and gold than duo lanes. There are 3 lanes and 5 players. So you want as few people in a lane as possible. One player, the jungler, getting gold and xp from the jungle and roaming to help lanes secure kills. The bottom lane is close to an objective called Dragon, which is a neutral camp that when killed, gives everyone on the team gold regardless of whether they helped or not. Dragon is very hard to kill alone early in the game, so you want as many people close to it as possible. Also, the bottom lane has the adc rather than top because the adc typically does more damage than top lane.
The meta also has an aspect called the "zero cs support." CS is creep score, you get gold/xp from killing weak enemy minions that spawn at regular intervals. The idea is that the adc gets all the cs because they need the gold to build better items to kill things to get more gold to kill more things. The support is typically a character who can help the team without really needing that many items. They also have utility spells like shields, stuns, speed ups/slow downs, heals. Again, these don't require gold to be effective. Therefore, the most efficient way to obtain gold/xp is to have a solo laner top, a solo laner mid, a duo bot (containing an adc and support) and a jungler to get the gold between lanes.
I know i'm using lots of jargon, so feel free to let me know what's confusing and I'd be happy to clarify.
It may have changed since, but when I played, you could only play against AI in the "Co-op Vs. Ai mode", which forced you to join with other players if you don't have 4 friends. In Dota2, you can play 2v2, 4v4, or whatever, or fill the empty slots on either team with bots. The bots have various difficulty settings, and the hard setting is actually pretty challenging (I'm still pretty new, but I've never beat them). Whereas in LoL the AI simply doesn't play well enough, so people just use it to practice with unfamiliar heroes and get mad at you even when they win because you didn't win by enough.
League has multiple difficulty settings for bots (which ramps up to laser precision murderer for some champions) and you can do a 2v2 just fine, you just have to set it up in a custom game rather than through the co-op menu.
You don't have to understand panel 2 in order to get the joke, though. The entire point is that it's jargon, kind of like this comic: http://trenchescomic.com/comic/post/pivotal that people also seemed to think hinged on understanding the techtalk.
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AdaTheDobieDemon Hunter for HireTime RiftRegistered Userregular
People who refuse to allow that a game might have SOME proscribed meta and still be fun just aren't going to enjoy MOBA's. That's perfectly ok, it's just part of the more competitive nature of this type of game.
If some dude showed up to play football and was all, "No, see, I know I'm the Right Guard, but I don't want to protect the quarterback, I want to play more like a wide receiver" he'd also get some funny looks....
I don't disagree with the need for some meta, it's a type of game that makes it necessary, but your metaphor itself falls right back in to what I was saying previously. You used a sports metaphor for it, and it's rather apropos. That's just it, even if it isn't quite a sport it seems to be sharing far more in common with a sport than with a traditional computer game. This isn't a bad thing in itself but it is a distinction that needs to be made at some point.
That necessary meta however becomes a problem when it's taken to the extreme for the sake of wanting to win. It's where the line is crossed from "adherent" to "zealot" that the fun becomes forever lost to all but the most ardent. The problem with that is not everyone shares that sentiment. At the highest levels where competition has real meaningful rewards, it actually makes some sense, I would put it the closest to the "sports" moniker at any rate. The problem is that level of zealotry exists at practically all levels of the game. Even that in itself wouldn't be the end of the world except for the fact that rather than expressing said zealotry as a passion for strategy and winning and the willingness to give constructive advice to help others improve and actually have a shot at appreciating it in the same way, most instead respond by insulting mothers and you and your progeny and generally being a silly goose beyond all reasonable thought.
Giving advice and strategy in a respectful manner with the intention of creating the best chance possible for victory will get me listening to you. Giving "advice" via screaming, racial slurs, and insults will me make me consider tracing your ip for a potential air strike.
Where as if I'm explaining to someone what a tank does in an mmo I can go "He's the guy with the highest hit points/defense who keeps the boss focused on him and not us."
To be fair, for some people, terms like "hit points" and "boss" would be impenetrable jargon. I mean, these people would be people like your 60 year old aunt who's never played a video game before, but still.
You don't have to understand panel 2 in order to get the joke, though. The entire point is that it's jargon, kind of like this comic: http://trenchescomic.com/comic/post/pivotal that people also seemed to think hinged on understanding the techtalk.
Yeah I get that some terms can still confuse people, but I consider myself a fairly involved gamer, but I've never been able to decipher lol speak. Like its one of the only game types around that really is its own universe more so than any other.
I dunno though I don't play sports games online, maybe those have as equally as undecphireable speak to talk strat.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
I really don't get how this is different than running, say, dungeons in an MMO. If people are complaining about how you can't play a certain character in a match, what about those people left out of raids because the raid has its three tanks or five dps or whatever. It is, to me, the same thing. In those games, people seem perfectly okay with sacrificing some part of their fun so that they can have more fun in a group. Same concept in League.
Also, for my money, playing a tank in LoL is more fun than in any MMO I've played. LoL tanks are so disruptive and fun to play because of the idea behind them; unlike tanks in MMOs, LoL tanks need to get aggro from players. The job is the same as it is in most MMOs (start the fight so the squishies don't have to), but in LoL with characters like Gangplank, Garen, and Cho'Gath tanking is a much more interactive process than, say, playing a Warrior or Paladin in WoW.
I mean, I get character attraction. I play fighting games, and in those it's pretty much all about using one character a bunch. However, LoL characters are not analogous to that situation. LoL is a team game and teams are built with objectives and play styles in mind. LoL characters have roles and things that they're good at, things that get better in certain team compositions and worse in others. Kog'Maw, for example, can put out some of the highest consistent damage in the game but he is also one of the squishiest characters, so if someone wants to play Kog'Maw that leads the rest of the team to select characters that can keep the enemy team off of him long enough for Kog'Maw to kill everything. This sort of interplay not just between you and the enemy team but you and your own team is a fundamental part of LoL's appeal. It doesn't have the braggadoccio of FFA shooters or one on one fighters, but it forces a co-ordination that other genres simply don't.
Also, if you haven't learned to not play with homps on the internet by now, I don't know what to tell you >.>
I swear lol speak is its own language entirely. Like I get that WoW and MMO's have their own lingo but you can almost read between the lines on words like tank, and DPS. Where as LoL speak is using words I think I know like Meta, and using them in ways I have no idea. Like I have no idea what the hell gabe is saying in panel 2.
Ive been reading this thread for 15 minutes and I still have no idea what the hell anyone is talking about.
This game sounds more like work than fun, count me out.
Alternately, one could look past the personal attacks and realize that League of Legends is a team game where communication and cooperation is what wins games more often than not.
etc etc (snip)
That's great, King Gheedorah, if you're into competitive team (e)sports.
I'm not.
Posts
My friends have been pushing me to play DotA2 (because it seems to be all they play anymore) and I just can't get into it. The strict attitude of 'You must play this game this way, or we lose and it's your fault' just seems like pressure and stress to me. I kind of want to play a game to have fun in my own way, not follow someone's guide or get yelled at.
Anyone else get Ender's Game feels from this? Suddenly I'm really interested in getting a group of friends to fuck with the meta with me.
The neat part about LoL is that the meta has evolved to prevent things like this. It's now commonplace to station a champion at every jungle entrance to spot possible invades such as this and react appropriately. It's behavior that's just expected of players at a certain level. There are strategies that revolve around having a strong level 1 team (lots of cc) so that you can invade their jungle and come out on top of a level one fight and put their team behind from the beginning of the game.
Of note: Jungle invades are so deliriously part of the meta I'm not sure where this guy is getting the idea that it's something gameshattering. Maybe before level 30 people won't be expecting this, but "fucking with the meta" is pretty hard these days since the only part that's really set in stone is the 1-1-2 lane setup.
Now, in PUGs, adherence to the AD/support bot lane will generally be expected, because it's established as working really effectively and when playing with strangers who are relying on you to help them win, they can't count on your special snowflake strategy as much as they can on something tried and true. If you talk to them in champion select though, and present your case, people are generally agreeable, in my experience. When they aren't agreeable is when you just decide to do something without a word otherwise.
Eh, it's not 'we lose because you weren't playing this way' so much as you'd probably lose because you'd start off not understanding WHY you're doing half the stuff you're doing.
DOTA's actually very good in that once you understand it you can be pretty stupid with stuff that you do (see Orb of Venom roaming Witch Doctor).
Dude. Don't get all pretentious about your current meta knowledge of LoL. When I was going into the jungle with my friends to murder the other team's jungler, there was not a name for it. "Jungle Invade" was not a thing and was definitely not a part of the meta. This was like a year ago that we did this. And it certainly caught them off guard and was unexpected. And they did not post sentries or anything to watch for this behavior.
Maybe what I did a year ago helped influence what the current meta is. But at the time, we weren't trying to influence the meta. We were just trying to get easy wins by taking advantage of how predictable the current meta was at the time.
I'm thinking not to just try something "special snowflake"-y on my own so much as do it in coordination with a team of friends specifically chosen. You'd need to use Vent or some kind of teamspeak rather than relying text chat so I'm not sure how well that'd work in Dota 2 (fairly sure most games are expected to be a random match) but it'd be interesting to see. I'm sure people have been trying this already though, if it's possible.
I've done kill lane compositions bottom quite a bit (Leona/J4
Anyone who hasn't tried 5 tank/5 smite hasn't truly lived.
Even if you do that, people will change their tune if you do actually do well. Had some guy surprise last pick Taric but after duo support bot Taric and Soraka were up like five kills Taric was a hero.
Two top 1 bottom 3 middle or you're doing it wrong
Jungle Invade (TM)
Don't play the character you want because jobs
how about fuck you forever
Computer: programmable, usually electronic device that can store, retrieve and process data.
Game: : activity engaged in for diversion, amusement, or fun.
Seems to me then that the original point of the software is lost then... new definition perhaps? Computer Racial Epithet Generator? Computer Aneurism Creator 2013? Computer Job?
Job: a specific duty, role, or function
Huh, sure fits better than game. Good thing you aren't playing one of those, I heard you have actual fun in them. But don't tell anyone. They might rage at you for deriving pleasure when you should be suiting up and falling in to line grunt.
Obviously he's going to wait to last hit you.
pleasepaypreacher.net
The key to having fun in LoL is playing with people you know to be solid bros. Almost every time someone is toxic in this game, I just assume they're probably a kid who doesn't know any better. I find the most effective way to deal with these players is to straight up mute them when they start with the negative crap. I almost wish there was a way to verify that I am, in fact, an adult and want to play with other players who are adults who are looking to have a good time playing a game without making vague threats to other people's mothers.
Interesting that you feel like LoL is more of a sport than game, because it's certainly he direction Riot seems to be heading. The thing is though, at low levels of play (which is the level that almost all players play at) almost anything can work with enough communication. I've been on the losing end of matches where the other team does something unconventional and I just don't have the wherewithal to organize and communicate with my team in such a way that shuts down the so-called cheese strats. One barrier to this is that there is no voice chat with pubs in game (thank god). Typing out elaborate strategies and counter-strategies takes you away from farming and harassing and doing all the other things the game requires of you.
If some dude showed up to play football and was all, "No, see, I know I'm the Right Guard, but I don't want to protect the quarterback, I want to play more like a wide receiver" he'd also get some funny looks. It's a strained metaphor, but it's sort of applicable. There are different formations that apply different player types and skill sets in different ways, but there's still some basic concepts that apply at play even slightly above screwing around.
Of note: for people who just want to do whatever for fun and play around, there are game types just for you. ARAM's, for instance, are a great way to play that screwy way.
As for strict adherence to the 1-1-2 meta, and calling it a "cargo cult," I'm not sure that's really totally true. The 1-1-2 is pretty standard because it's sort of the baseline opening that everyone understands. It's not that there aren't other ways to play effectively, but the other ways require more complex communication and coordination. You'll see them more often when all the players know each other, but if it's all people solo, 1-1-2 is the most effective because it allows for a jungle, double coverage of dragon (which is why 2 go bot instead of top) and a vulnerable champ mid, which is the hardest spot to gank.
If you go 2 top, you lose that double coverage of dragon. By default you've weakened your team by potentially giving up some dragon kills. You can overcome this through good play, by a team using their advantage top to dominate that lane unexpectedly, but it requires good coordination.
If you go 2 mid, you don't take advantage of having a solo mid AP carry there mostly safe from ganks.
If you don't jungle, you have a slower experience and gold growth curve on average across the team.
There's certainly ways to subvert the dominant meta, but the default meta is the most efficient for the lowest common denominator player make-up, and gives you the most reliable results the most consistently.
LoL is a game that people play because they want to have a competition to be the best at something. They still want to have fun, but it's a fun that follows from trying to get better at something.
LoL lingo is definitely obtuse, but it's not complicated. You still have tanks and DPS. The most game specific lingo is as such:
ADC: Combination of two things, it's a carry (term from Dota referring to a character who does very well late game and can carry your team if he has lots of kills) and AD (attack damage, does most damage with basic attacks rather than spells).
AP: Ability power, damage done with spells
Lanes: The map is divided into 3 lanes: top, middle and botom.
Support: Not necessarily a healer, though some supports do heal. Champions who have lots of utility that don't require gold to be effective. Their role in the beginning of the game is to go with the ADC to help them get kills so the ADC can carry later. ADC's need items to be effective, and items cost gold, which you get from killing things.
Jungle: The area between the lanes which contain neutral camps you can kill for gold and buffs. Junglers roam the map and help lanes get kills. I could explain why the jungle role exists but it would take some time to fully explain why the 1 top, 1 mid, 2 bot lane meta is the way it is.
All this confirms to me that LoL is not for me. I have a hard enough time figuring out ME3's multi or Gears.
pleasepaypreacher.net
If you step way, way back, tank and DPS aren't at all self-evident meanings, it's just that they've been in the gaming vernacular so long that they seem obvious. A tank is... a mobile weapons platform that can be operated with a small crew, usually has a big cannon. A DPS is... double penetration system? Oh, damage per second. Wait, how is a person a damage per second?
MOBA's just haven't been around a slong, and the language is more specific to that game type. I don't really think MMO language is any less specialized, it's just that more people play MMO"s and they've been around longer.
If you're playing an MMO than I can assume you know basic rpg terms so its not a huge stretch, where as LoL and its bretheren is like a completely different world. Also the competitive nature of the game seems to take the worst of the L2P mindset and demand it of anyone and that doesn't mean fun times for me, I mean I'm glad you all can enjoy it even if seemingly the only time I see people post about LoL is to say how much they hated playing with people...
pleasepaypreacher.net
If I've got it right, Meta is taking into account what strategies pros use for a given game.
So.
Pro's mostly use X -> X is the best -> WHY AREN'T YOU USING X NOOB, STICK TO THE META
North America Meta I assume refers to the North American LoL competitions?
pleasepaypreacher.net
It means meta-game, and it specifically references the basic strategies that are popular in your gaming community. For Magic, you might have a local meta (the guy who wins every Friday night tournament sure loves green/black) and the National meta. For an online game, it's basically everyone who plays in your region-lock.
Also, with the advent of online everything, like netdecking in Magic (copying a popular deck list that you found online), the concept of local metas is slowly dissolving.
And the idea of a Meta-Game extends to almost any hobby in which people play competitively. There's a Magic the Gathering meta. Certain cards rise in popularity for a time, strategies emerge to defeat the common decks, and the meta evolves.
That's just the nature of competitive gaming.
Even sports have a meta, although they don't really call it such.
Not quite. The meta evolved around the most efficient way to accrue gold and XP as a team. Solo lanes get more xp and gold than duo lanes. There are 3 lanes and 5 players. So you want as few people in a lane as possible. One player, the jungler, getting gold and xp from the jungle and roaming to help lanes secure kills. The bottom lane is close to an objective called Dragon, which is a neutral camp that when killed, gives everyone on the team gold regardless of whether they helped or not. Dragon is very hard to kill alone early in the game, so you want as many people close to it as possible. Also, the bottom lane has the adc rather than top because the adc typically does more damage than top lane.
The meta also has an aspect called the "zero cs support." CS is creep score, you get gold/xp from killing weak enemy minions that spawn at regular intervals. The idea is that the adc gets all the cs because they need the gold to build better items to kill things to get more gold to kill more things. The support is typically a character who can help the team without really needing that many items. They also have utility spells like shields, stuns, speed ups/slow downs, heals. Again, these don't require gold to be effective. Therefore, the most efficient way to obtain gold/xp is to have a solo laner top, a solo laner mid, a duo bot (containing an adc and support) and a jungler to get the gold between lanes.
I know i'm using lots of jargon, so feel free to let me know what's confusing and I'd be happy to clarify.
I don't disagree with the need for some meta, it's a type of game that makes it necessary, but your metaphor itself falls right back in to what I was saying previously. You used a sports metaphor for it, and it's rather apropos. That's just it, even if it isn't quite a sport it seems to be sharing far more in common with a sport than with a traditional computer game. This isn't a bad thing in itself but it is a distinction that needs to be made at some point.
That necessary meta however becomes a problem when it's taken to the extreme for the sake of wanting to win. It's where the line is crossed from "adherent" to "zealot" that the fun becomes forever lost to all but the most ardent. The problem with that is not everyone shares that sentiment. At the highest levels where competition has real meaningful rewards, it actually makes some sense, I would put it the closest to the "sports" moniker at any rate. The problem is that level of zealotry exists at practically all levels of the game. Even that in itself wouldn't be the end of the world except for the fact that rather than expressing said zealotry as a passion for strategy and winning and the willingness to give constructive advice to help others improve and actually have a shot at appreciating it in the same way, most instead respond by insulting mothers and you and your progeny and generally being a silly goose beyond all reasonable thought.
Giving advice and strategy in a respectful manner with the intention of creating the best chance possible for victory will get me listening to you. Giving "advice" via screaming, racial slurs, and insults will me make me consider tracing your ip for a potential air strike.
To be fair, for some people, terms like "hit points" and "boss" would be impenetrable jargon. I mean, these people would be people like your 60 year old aunt who's never played a video game before, but still.
That was like...one guy who seemed to think that.
I dunno though I don't play sports games online, maybe those have as equally as undecphireable speak to talk strat.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Also, for my money, playing a tank in LoL is more fun than in any MMO I've played. LoL tanks are so disruptive and fun to play because of the idea behind them; unlike tanks in MMOs, LoL tanks need to get aggro from players. The job is the same as it is in most MMOs (start the fight so the squishies don't have to), but in LoL with characters like Gangplank, Garen, and Cho'Gath tanking is a much more interactive process than, say, playing a Warrior or Paladin in WoW.
I mean, I get character attraction. I play fighting games, and in those it's pretty much all about using one character a bunch. However, LoL characters are not analogous to that situation. LoL is a team game and teams are built with objectives and play styles in mind. LoL characters have roles and things that they're good at, things that get better in certain team compositions and worse in others. Kog'Maw, for example, can put out some of the highest consistent damage in the game but he is also one of the squishiest characters, so if someone wants to play Kog'Maw that leads the rest of the team to select characters that can keep the enemy team off of him long enough for Kog'Maw to kill everything. This sort of interplay not just between you and the enemy team but you and your own team is a fundamental part of LoL's appeal. It doesn't have the braggadoccio of FFA shooters or one on one fighters, but it forces a co-ordination that other genres simply don't.
Also, if you haven't learned to not play with homps on the internet by now, I don't know what to tell you >.>
Ive been reading this thread for 15 minutes and I still have no idea what the hell anyone is talking about.
This game sounds more like work than fun, count me out.
That's great, King Gheedorah, if you're into competitive team (e)sports.
I'm not.