People who refuse to allow that a game might have SOME proscribed meta and still be fun just aren't going to enjoy MOBA's. That's perfectly ok, it's just part of the more competitive nature of this type of game.
If some dude showed up to play football and was all, "No, see, I know I'm the Right Guard, but I don't want to protect the quarterback, I want to play more like a wide receiver" he'd also get some funny looks....
I don't disagree with the need for some meta, it's a type of game that makes it necessary, but your metaphor itself falls right back in to what I was saying previously. You used a sports metaphor for it, and it's rather apropos. That's just it, even if it isn't quite a sport it seems to be sharing far more in common with a sport than with a traditional computer game. This isn't a bad thing in itself but it is a distinction that needs to be made at some point.
That necessary meta however becomes a problem when it's taken to the extreme for the sake of wanting to win. It's where the line is crossed from "adherent" to "zealot" that the fun becomes forever lost to all but the most ardent. The problem with that is not everyone shares that sentiment. At the highest levels where competition has real meaningful rewards, it actually makes some sense, I would put it the closest to the "sports" moniker at any rate. The problem is that level of zealotry exists at practically all levels of the game. Even that in itself wouldn't be the end of the world except for the fact that rather than expressing said zealotry as a passion for strategy and winning and the willingness to give constructive advice to help others improve and actually have a shot at appreciating it in the same way, most instead respond by insulting mothers and you and your progeny and generally being a silly goose beyond all reasonable thought.
Giving advice and strategy in a respectful manner with the intention of creating the best chance possible for victory will get me listening to you. Giving "advice" via screaming, racial slurs, and insults will me make me consider tracing your ip for a potential air strike.
You've hit on the most critical difference of opinion, I guess. Sports are games. I agree that LoL is an e-sport. I don't think people should be yelled at for playing poorly, but refusing to try to play well doesn't fit within the context of what LoL is supposed to be, for me.
If someone came on and said, "Hey, I want to use character X to do non-traditional role Y" in a non-ranked game, I'd have no beef with it. I'd be excited to support it.
If they just come in and instantly lock a character that isn't going to be beneficial to the team the way the rest of us are planning it as we discuss it in team chat, and then don't communicate their goal and just run a random character into a poorly suited role without a good reason to do that, I'll find that disappointing and unfun.
I used to really enjoy LoL but it just got worse and worse in pubs
I wish I knew 9 people who liked it because it would be a fun game to play among friends only
That's the only real reason I play DotA instead of LoL now. Both are good games, and the competitive players have every right to enjoy the game their way. But I've got enough friends in DotA to form a full team, and we can just play bots and do whatever instead of getting involved in a complicated/stressful meta. Both are equally valid ways of playing; I just like for both to be available.
That's why I always thought Wrath of the Lich King was the golden age of WoW. Casual stuff was available and well written, and even got difficult enough to be fun (e.g. the Icecrown 5-mans) unlike vanilla where that content simply wasn't available. But there was still really difficult and compelling hardcore content like Algalon that rewarded you appropriately.
For anyone who just is like "I would really like to try this LoL game everyone is talking about," I think this comic rings true. When I first started playing (I stopped last year) LoL was in its infancy and luckily I played with other friends who were less into it than a lot of people. We just had fun running around with whatever the free champ was and didn't really know/care about whatever the meta was. That's how you learn a game; you just go in and start dicking around and figuring out how to play.
What happened later is that once so many more people knew the standard meta, that kind of thing (even at low ELO) was discouraged. Moreso because the MOBA-style of game, not the community itself - it's all the same kinds of gamers, promotes a high competitive time investment that makes it easy to go crazy on someone who lessens your own enjoyment by making poor decisions. I can't play the game anymore, because it turns me into a raging asshole and i don't like to feel that way. Plus, I only want to be play Fire Emblem and Path of Exile forever and ever!!!
Smoogy on
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Thankfully, Dota 2's meta is far less rigid so you won't see people telling you you're going to the "Wrong lane" unless you're a hard carry going to the suicide lane because seriously what the hell is with you? At worst you'll have people rightly complaining about too many hard carries on one team or no one buying courier, but that issue gets better as you get higher in the matchmaking.
I started playing video games because I was bad at sports. I'd play basketball or football, get told how much I sucked, how I need to learn to play and how I should just quit.
Video games were fun because I didn't need to be bigger or stronger or faster. I could have fun and stay competive by just playing the game.
Now video games are eSports, where I try to play the game, and get told how much I suck, how I need to learn to play and how I should just quit.
The circle is now complete.
At least being called a "stupid fuck" in LoL doesn't taste like dirt, or ruin your shirt like a bloody nose...so, progress, right?
To be fair, there are a lot of games you can play that have nothing to do with eSports. The vast majority of them in fact. I find competitive multiplayer games in general to be utterly hideous and I have never run out of stuff to play.
+2
AdaTheDobieDemon Hunter for HireTime RiftRegistered Userregular
To be fair, there are a lot of games you can play that have nothing to do with eSports. The vast majority of them in fact. I find competitive multiplayer games in general to be utterly hideous and I have never run out of stuff to play.
This is the grand saving grace of video game medium, thankfully we are just talking about one genre out of countless others that cater to all types of playstyles. I for one, could spend the rest of my days playing nothing but JRPGs and I'd still be happy.
To be fair, there are a lot of games you can play that have nothing to do with eSports. The vast majority of them in fact. I find competitive multiplayer games in general to be utterly hideous and I have never run out of stuff to play.
This is the grand saving grace of video game medium, thankfully we are just talking about one genre out of countless others that cater to all types of playstyles. I for one, could spend the rest of my days playing nothing but JRPGs and I'd still be happy.
Why would you do that? Are you some kind of criminal and this is your punishment?
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
To be fair, there are a lot of games you can play that have nothing to do with eSports. The vast majority of them in fact. I find competitive multiplayer games in general to be utterly hideous and I have never run out of stuff to play.
This is the grand saving grace of video game medium, thankfully we are just talking about one genre out of countless others that cater to all types of playstyles. I for one, could spend the rest of my days playing nothing but JRPGs and I'd still be happy.
Why would you do that? Are you some kind of criminal and this is your punishment?
I've never before felt the need to use the little "Awesome" button below a post. But I just clicked it so hard. SO HARD.
To be fair, there are a lot of games you can play that have nothing to do with eSports. The vast majority of them in fact. I find competitive multiplayer games in general to be utterly hideous and I have never run out of stuff to play.
/agree
That's why the term "eSport" is starting to end up on my "will not play any game associated with" list.
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Warlock82Never pet a burning dogRegistered Userregular
Yeah, this is why I'm not at all interested in DOTA2. I used to like DOTA in War3 but the whole community is just absolutely terrible now. I'd rather have fun playing how I want to without getting yelled at, thanks :P
I'm hoping Blizzard All-Stars isn't too bad. Blizzard is actually changing things up about the gameplay (*gasp*) so hopefully people won't be so rigidly stuck to playing a certain way.
There's an idea that's been floated in some MOBA communities that last hitting is a weird, outdated mechanic that should be done away with. I totally agree and would love to see a game that replaces it with something more fun and strategic.
The last hitting mechanic is as such: Minions (dumb NPCs) spawn for each side in waves of 6 or 7 every minute or so, and when you kill one you get gold. Doesn't matter how much damage you did to it, if it dies by any hand but yours, you don't get the gold. So ideally you're letting the minions wail on each other for a while, or you're hitting them a bit yourself, and you hit them with a basic attack or spell to deal the killing blow.
It complicates things when it becomes obvious that you're about to attack a minion, and you leave yourself open to harass. While your attack animation is going off, you're vulnerable. It's also just a harder thing to do than it sounds. Again, I think it's an archaic mechanic just in the game because it was in DOTA.
More gold, more items, more killing things. So if you farm efficiently early, you can clear waves faster and maybe go do other things like roam to a different lane to help your teammate. That's how you build the so-called "snowball." Early gold is so important in LoL because it can give you an advantage that builds on itself.
my biggest problem with last hitting is not so much the kill stealing aspect but so much more the notion that grinding down the creeps is so secondary to the last hit that I commonly saw people not even attack the creeps until they were already primed to be last-hit
and also the massive advantage it confers to some heroes who are better at it than others
which I am sure the devs keep in mind when designing heroes, but still, dumb
More lingo and perhaps an explanation for the un-initiated:
In LoL, DotA, and probably many other MOBA/LOBA and in many MMOs, there tends to be a three pronged spectrum of how our avatars/champions/heroes can spread their abilities. The spectrum can be divided into the following:
Offense
Defense
Utility
The abilities on an avatar tends to determine where they lie on specific spectrum. Imagine a world where you can fork an avatar in numerous permutations of this spectrum. You have "enemies" which also follow the same spectrum. Without going into a huge history of the development of certain terms, games have been designed so that multiplayer games require some certain mastery/understanding of the spectrum to "kill without being killed".
Typically, you'd have a "DPS" avatar, or "teh deepz", that acts as your primary offensive avatar. They tend to be almost completely invested into the Offense area of the spectrum to gain the highest damage/time. They output the most damage over a certain period of time, typically over the entire course of a battle. You'd have a "Tank" that acts as your line of defense for your offensive avatar(s). The "Tank" invests everything into the Defense area to gain high survivability. Finally, you can have a "Support", typically a "healer/buffer/debuffer". The Supports can keep your Tanks healthy, enemies demoralized, and deepz doing more damage. Supports invest everything into the Utility area to enable your team to keep doing what they're doing or to do better.
The truth is that even in games of old, archetypes such as "DPS", or "Tank", or "Healer" oversimplify how difficult going all-in into certain parts of the spectrum can be. The "DPS" typically is not pure offense, but it's useful to think that DPS is "mad deepz hur hur hur" even though they may have a little bit of survivability built-in. Tank isn't just pure defense. They'll have some utility in their kits to draw hate/aggro from enemy mobs through using "Taunts". Supports can dip anywhere into the spectrum if they're not dedicated healers.
However, due to how enemies in older games are CPU controlled, there is some gaming of using game mechanics and certain tricks to keep encounters as "Tank-n-spank" as much as possible if nothing more than efficacy's sake. You can specifically gauge how efficient your DPS is by simply calculating damage over time which allows a sort of feedback that your deepz is deepzing.
MOBAs in the vein of DotA and LoL use the same spectrum of offense-defense-utility, but the player-vs-player nature changes up some of the dynamics that you do not typically see in PvE. How do you "Tank" without a "Taunt" that takes away control of the enemy player? How can your gauge your DPS where your engagement time count vary anywhere from 5 seconds to a quarter of a minute. We're not even talking minutes!
Because of the difference in the dynamics, the traditional roles do not apply quite the same way.
DPS - Mostly Offense, dipping lightly into either Defense or Utility. 80% to 20% split.
Fighter/Bruiser - Split between Offense and Defense. About 50/50 split.
Assassin - Characterized by relatively high Offense and ability to ignore lines of defense such as Tanks and Peels. May default to DPS or Fighter roles depending on build.
Duelist- Characterized with abilities that lead to excellent skirmishing in 1-on-1 or even 1-on-2 engagements.
Pushers- Characterized by having abilities that "push" a lane through either killing enemy npcs quickly or healing allied npcs like minions or creeps.
Poke- Characterized by having offensive abilities that have almost instantaneous application.
AOE- Area-of-effect. Characterized by having abilities that targets large numbers of units.
Soak - I hear this term from time to time. Almost purely Defense. Not an exclusive archetype. i.e. A Soak can also be a Tank, but a Tank is not necessarily a soak. Might diverge into Fighter or Tank depending on build choice.
Tank- Mostly Defense, dipping lightly into either Offense or Utility, more likely Utility. 80% to 20% split. Tanks are characterized with either some form of repeatable application Peel, some form of slow application offensive ability (DoTs, bleeds, burns, etc), or some Initiation ability.
Off-Tank- Sometimes hear this term. About 50/50 split between Defense and Utility. Usually has Peel of some sort to augment Tank role, thus the term "Off-Tank". Tanks when the Tank can't Tank or Peels when the Supports or Tank can't Peel. Typically no initiation ability. Minimal offensive ability.
Initiator- Characterized by having abilities that allow for favorable engagements on enemy players. Typically some sort of AOE loss-of-control application.
Peel- Support axis dealing with consistent application of movement impairment and enemy player loss-of-control (stuns, taunts, displacements, silences, etc). Also includes movement enhancement of allies (hastes and maybe dispels). Not an exclusive archetypes. ie. Tanks are typically defined as mostly defense with Peel potential.
Buffers/Debuffers- Support axis dealing with increasing/decreasing efficiency of other roles by pushing Offensive or Defensive capabilities.
Sustains- Support axis dealing with increasing the length of an encounter either at the strategic or tactical level. Includes resource management mitigation (heals, shields, secondary resource battery).
Support- Blanket term for avatars that invest in more than 80% Utility. Includes Peel, Buffers, Debuffers, Sustains.
Last hitting is getting the "last hit" which reduce an NPC mob's HP to 0. Being the one to actually kill an NPC mob gets you bonus gold, and is absolutely critical to playing the game well. The first 5 minutes of a game are all about getting more "last hits" than the other team, while avoiding being killed unnecessarily/trying to kill the other team when they're stupid and let you kill them unnecessarily.
That is really all it is. It's a dance, where you and the other team try to farm kills on the minions without being dumb and giving up a kill.
This is also where all the frustration starts, because new players often put insufficient weight on the "don't die" scale of goals, and it's the single most important goal.
Kill stealing, i.e. killing another player that your teammate honestly earned the kill on, is called "securing the kill" and you should always use your ult when playing as Karthus to do this, even if your team doesn't need you to.
my biggest problem with last hitting is not so much the kill stealing aspect but so much more the notion that grinding down the creeps is so secondary to the last hit that I commonly saw people not even attack the creeps until they were already primed to be last-hit
and also the massive advantage it confers to some heroes who are better at it than others
which I am sure the devs keep in mind when designing heroes, but still, dumb
So there is actually strategy all around what's called lane control. Often times you don't want to be attack the creeps because if you do, your lane will push towards your enemy. This means you have to move further from your own tower to stay in XP, harass and cs range. It also puts you in danger of getting "ganked." Ganking is when a jungler or other lane member comes to your lane in an attempt to kill you. Ideally, you often want to "freeze" the creep wave near your tower, putting your enemy in danger of getting ganked by your own team. Other times you want to push the lane as hard as you can as fast as you can letting you roam elsewhere. This forces your opponent to either miss out on gold/xp while his tower attacks the creeps or have one of his teammates be endangered by your roaming.
As to some champs being better than others at last hitting, AD Carries are naturally better because they do more damage with basic attacks. However, later in the game mages are typically better because they have AoE spells that can clear waves with one shot. Also characters that aren't as easy to last hit often excel in other areas of the gaem (1v1 duels, objective control.)
Kill stealing, i.e. killing another player that your teammate honestly earned the kill on, is called "securing the kill" and you should always your ult when playing as Karthus to do this, even if your team doesn't need you to.
This is more targeted at the last page than this one:
Is running a kill lane, which is obviously what Gabe is hinting at in the comic, now really some special "snowflake strategy"? The old meta revolved around kill lanes before the current one developed. And the current one might change again because AD Carries are hardly as effective as they used to be, with all the mobility creep that has been happening. It's hardly a setup which puts you into clear danger of losing, especially because there are so many other factors which are more important to your individual and the team's success.
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kaliyamaLeft to find less-moderated foraRegistered Userregular
People who refuse to allow that a game might have SOME proscribed meta and still be fun just aren't going to enjoy MOBA's. That's perfectly ok, it's just part of the more competitive nature of this type of game.
If some dude showed up to play football and was all, "No, see, I know I'm the Right Guard, but I don't want to protect the quarterback, I want to play more like a wide receiver" he'd also get some funny looks....
I don't disagree with the need for some meta, it's a type of game that makes it necessary, but your metaphor itself falls right back in to what I was saying previously. You used a sports metaphor for it, and it's rather apropos. That's just it, even if it isn't quite a sport it seems to be sharing far more in common with a sport than with a traditional computer game. This isn't a bad thing in itself but it is a distinction that needs to be made at some point.
That necessary meta however becomes a problem when it's taken to the extreme for the sake of wanting to win. It's where the line is crossed from "adherent" to "zealot" that the fun becomes forever lost to all but the most ardent. The problem with that is not everyone shares that sentiment. At the highest levels where competition has real meaningful rewards, it actually makes some sense, I would put it the closest to the "sports" moniker at any rate. The problem is that level of zealotry exists at practically all levels of the game. Even that in itself wouldn't be the end of the world except for the fact that rather than expressing said zealotry as a passion for strategy and winning and the willingness to give constructive advice to help others improve and actually have a shot at appreciating it in the same way, most instead respond by insulting mothers and you and your progeny and generally being a silly goose beyond all reasonable thought.
Giving advice and strategy in a respectful manner with the intention of creating the best chance possible for victory will get me listening to you. Giving "advice" via screaming, racial slurs, and insults will me make me consider tracing your ip for a potential air strike.
You've hit on the most critical difference of opinion, I guess. Sports are games. I agree that LoL is an e-sport. I don't think people should be yelled at for playing poorly, but refusing to try to play well doesn't fit within the context of what LoL is supposed to be, for me.
If someone came on and said, "Hey, I want to use character X to do non-traditional role Y" in a non-ranked game, I'd have no beef with it. I'd be excited to support it.
If they just come in and instantly lock a character that isn't going to be beneficial to the team the way the rest of us are planning it as we discuss it in team chat, and then don't communicate their goal and just run a random character into a poorly suited role without a good reason to do that, I'll find that disappointing and unfun.
I like this analogy, because it maps extensively to actual physical sports. There are softball leagues that are super competitive and full of douchebags who will abuse you if you lose because there's "some" proscribed meta because softball is "more competitive." There are also leagues full of people who enjoy playing softball and beer and are happy as long as everyone is putting in their best effort, but don't invest themselves psychically in the outcome the way people who care about ELO/league rankings do. In some sense people are trying to do what MLB does, but trying to play like MLB in a municipal softball league is psychotic.
I don't like the former kind of person any more in real life than I do in MOBAs. It just seems like it's exacerbated online because it's a bunch of neckbeards* or 12 year old brazilians or whatever who have anonymity, hormones, and little perspective what fun and sportsmanship is.
* I thought I was being uncharitable to generalize this way, then I walked into a few PC cafes where rows of people were playing LoL.
This is more targeted at the last page than this one:
Is running a kill lane, which is obviously what Gabe is hinting at in the comic, now really some special "snowflake strategy"? The old meta revolved around kill lanes before the current one developed. And the current one might change again because AD Carries are hardly as effective as they used to be, with all the mobility creep that has been happening. It's hardly a setup which puts you into clear danger of losing, especially because there are so many other factors which are more important to your individual and the team's success.
my second critique of the genre
a game which professes to be the digital analog to traditional team sports
the basic rules and premises of the game, outside of the map, change basically every week
you can't walk away from LoL for more than a few months without everything you know or thought you knew completely being turned on its ear
actual organized sports don't do this
hence a lot of the so-called "pro gamers" also happen to be people who can actually keep up with this shit
This is more targeted at the last page than this one:
Is running a kill lane, which is obviously what Gabe is hinting at in the comic, now really some special "snowflake strategy"? The old meta revolved around kill lanes before the current one developed. And the current one might change again because AD Carries are hardly as effective as they used to be, with all the mobility creep that has been happening. It's hardly a setup which puts you into clear danger of losing, especially because there are so many other factors which are more important to your individual and the team's success.
It's a "snowflake strategy" in the way that the 2-point conversion is a "snowflake strategy" in football. That is, you don't see it very often because it's far less reliable and requires a herculean amount of effort to pull off, though the results are better if you can pull it off. They're not THAT rare, but they're not as good if all skill levels are equal. Kill lanes, if successfully avoided, aren't very productive and hinder the team later on once the power curve has switched. And, honestly, the kill lane usually only works when you outclass the other team in skill.
And I don't think Gabe is hinting at the kill lane strategy. He seems to be raging that there are role-rules at all. For an uninformed player it is probably really annoying to be told that he should take the really cool gargoyle wizard guy bottom with his buddy playing the really funny Bowser guy.
it's really annoying to pick ANY character and be bitched out for doing anything short of the exact strategy prescribed by the community
my personal pet peeve, picking a character than can very clearly be either AP or AD, then choosing the "wrong" one, and having to hear about it for the next 55 minutes
This is more targeted at the last page than this one:
Is running a kill lane, which is obviously what Gabe is hinting at in the comic, now really some special "snowflake strategy"? The old meta revolved around kill lanes before the current one developed. And the current one might change again because AD Carries are hardly as effective as they used to be, with all the mobility creep that has been happening. It's hardly a setup which puts you into clear danger of losing, especially because there are so many other factors which are more important to your individual and the team's success.
Well, is Gabe referring to Draft or Blind Pick?
Kill lanes can be great against squishy champs, but if they pick tankier champs that can still scale well, then a lot of the advantage of a kill lane is lost after the first few levels, no? I mean, how "kill-y" is the kill lane? What if they lane swap, push down the tower top really quickly, and come back bot a few levels later? Do you follow the duo lane top and lose some experience or try to outpush their typical top lane champ who can probably farm well under the tower?
Blind Pick I'm thinking would probably be a toss-up to do a successful kill lane. You might be a squishy lane or you might be paired up with some other lane comp that might counter your kill lane.
But for Draft? The other team has to really mess up their picks to walk blindly into a kill lane.
Which is another odd thing about MOBAs... At the competitive, professional level, picks are not something you do before the game. Picking is a PART of the game. Riot has also said that they fully endorse that picks and bans are an actually part of the game. The critical decision making starts the moment you enter the champion selection screen.
Imagine how intense baseball or footbal would be if you had to draft your players before every game.
So correct me if I'm wrong you have to pay for characters correct?
Kind of. There is a "free" rotation of champions you can play that rotate on a weekly basis. You can pay to unlock more champions with either actual money or with earned in-game currency. You earn in-game currency by playing games in their matchmaking system. More if you win, less if you lose.
Ok so people would pay for a character to play it and then join a map and be told where to go and what to do according to the community? This happens in all the games?
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Posts
You've hit on the most critical difference of opinion, I guess. Sports are games. I agree that LoL is an e-sport. I don't think people should be yelled at for playing poorly, but refusing to try to play well doesn't fit within the context of what LoL is supposed to be, for me.
If someone came on and said, "Hey, I want to use character X to do non-traditional role Y" in a non-ranked game, I'd have no beef with it. I'd be excited to support it.
If they just come in and instantly lock a character that isn't going to be beneficial to the team the way the rest of us are planning it as we discuss it in team chat, and then don't communicate their goal and just run a random character into a poorly suited role without a good reason to do that, I'll find that disappointing and unfun.
They're at least ten years too late for that.
I wish I knew 9 people who liked it because it would be a fun game to play among friends only
we also talk about other random shit and clown upon each other
That's the only real reason I play DotA instead of LoL now. Both are good games, and the competitive players have every right to enjoy the game their way. But I've got enough friends in DotA to form a full team, and we can just play bots and do whatever instead of getting involved in a complicated/stressful meta. Both are equally valid ways of playing; I just like for both to be available.
That's why I always thought Wrath of the Lich King was the golden age of WoW. Casual stuff was available and well written, and even got difficult enough to be fun (e.g. the Icecrown 5-mans) unlike vanilla where that content simply wasn't available. But there was still really difficult and compelling hardcore content like Algalon that rewarded you appropriately.
you would think so but from experience it's definitely not. we specifically stopped these games for a reason.
What happened later is that once so many more people knew the standard meta, that kind of thing (even at low ELO) was discouraged. Moreso because the MOBA-style of game, not the community itself - it's all the same kinds of gamers, promotes a high competitive time investment that makes it easy to go crazy on someone who lessens your own enjoyment by making poor decisions. I can't play the game anymore, because it turns me into a raging asshole and i don't like to feel that way. Plus, I only want to be play Fire Emblem and Path of Exile forever and ever!!!
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Video games were fun because I didn't need to be bigger or stronger or faster. I could have fun and stay competive by just playing the game.
Now video games are eSports, where I try to play the game, and get told how much I suck, how I need to learn to play and how I should just quit.
The circle is now complete.
At least being called a "stupid fuck" in LoL doesn't taste like dirt, or ruin your shirt like a bloody nose...so, progress, right?
This is the grand saving grace of video game medium, thankfully we are just talking about one genre out of countless others that cater to all types of playstyles. I for one, could spend the rest of my days playing nothing but JRPGs and I'd still be happy.
Why would you do that? Are you some kind of criminal and this is your punishment?
pleasepaypreacher.net
Again, it's all opinion! People have varied tastes.
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I've never before felt the need to use the little "Awesome" button below a post. But I just clicked it so hard. SO HARD.
Lies there is one objective opinion, this tastes thing is just something liberals tell you.
I'm just joshing you jrpg people, I mean you already hate yourself enough as it is, no need for me to kick more dirt.
pleasepaypreacher.net
/agree
That's why the term "eSport" is starting to end up on my "will not play any game associated with" list.
I'm hoping Blizzard All-Stars isn't too bad. Blizzard is actually changing things up about the gameplay (*gasp*) so hopefully people won't be so rigidly stuck to playing a certain way.
pleasepaypreacher.net
we also talk about other random shit and clown upon each other
pleasepaypreacher.net
It complicates things when it becomes obvious that you're about to attack a minion, and you leave yourself open to harass. While your attack animation is going off, you're vulnerable. It's also just a harder thing to do than it sounds. Again, I think it's an archaic mechanic just in the game because it was in DOTA.
More gold, more items, more killing things. So if you farm efficiently early, you can clear waves faster and maybe go do other things like roam to a different lane to help your teammate. That's how you build the so-called "snowball." Early gold is so important in LoL because it can give you an advantage that builds on itself.
and also the massive advantage it confers to some heroes who are better at it than others
which I am sure the devs keep in mind when designing heroes, but still, dumb
we also talk about other random shit and clown upon each other
In LoL, DotA, and probably many other MOBA/LOBA and in many MMOs, there tends to be a three pronged spectrum of how our avatars/champions/heroes can spread their abilities. The spectrum can be divided into the following:
Offense
Defense
Utility
The abilities on an avatar tends to determine where they lie on specific spectrum. Imagine a world where you can fork an avatar in numerous permutations of this spectrum. You have "enemies" which also follow the same spectrum. Without going into a huge history of the development of certain terms, games have been designed so that multiplayer games require some certain mastery/understanding of the spectrum to "kill without being killed".
Typically, you'd have a "DPS" avatar, or "teh deepz", that acts as your primary offensive avatar. They tend to be almost completely invested into the Offense area of the spectrum to gain the highest damage/time. They output the most damage over a certain period of time, typically over the entire course of a battle. You'd have a "Tank" that acts as your line of defense for your offensive avatar(s). The "Tank" invests everything into the Defense area to gain high survivability. Finally, you can have a "Support", typically a "healer/buffer/debuffer". The Supports can keep your Tanks healthy, enemies demoralized, and deepz doing more damage. Supports invest everything into the Utility area to enable your team to keep doing what they're doing or to do better.
The truth is that even in games of old, archetypes such as "DPS", or "Tank", or "Healer" oversimplify how difficult going all-in into certain parts of the spectrum can be. The "DPS" typically is not pure offense, but it's useful to think that DPS is "mad deepz hur hur hur" even though they may have a little bit of survivability built-in. Tank isn't just pure defense. They'll have some utility in their kits to draw hate/aggro from enemy mobs through using "Taunts". Supports can dip anywhere into the spectrum if they're not dedicated healers.
However, due to how enemies in older games are CPU controlled, there is some gaming of using game mechanics and certain tricks to keep encounters as "Tank-n-spank" as much as possible if nothing more than efficacy's sake. You can specifically gauge how efficient your DPS is by simply calculating damage over time which allows a sort of feedback that your deepz is deepzing.
MOBAs in the vein of DotA and LoL use the same spectrum of offense-defense-utility, but the player-vs-player nature changes up some of the dynamics that you do not typically see in PvE. How do you "Tank" without a "Taunt" that takes away control of the enemy player? How can your gauge your DPS where your engagement time count vary anywhere from 5 seconds to a quarter of a minute. We're not even talking minutes!
Because of the difference in the dynamics, the traditional roles do not apply quite the same way.
DPS - Mostly Offense, dipping lightly into either Defense or Utility. 80% to 20% split.
Fighter/Bruiser - Split between Offense and Defense. About 50/50 split.
Assassin - Characterized by relatively high Offense and ability to ignore lines of defense such as Tanks and Peels. May default to DPS or Fighter roles depending on build.
Duelist- Characterized with abilities that lead to excellent skirmishing in 1-on-1 or even 1-on-2 engagements.
Pushers- Characterized by having abilities that "push" a lane through either killing enemy npcs quickly or healing allied npcs like minions or creeps.
Poke- Characterized by having offensive abilities that have almost instantaneous application.
AOE- Area-of-effect. Characterized by having abilities that targets large numbers of units.
Soak - I hear this term from time to time. Almost purely Defense. Not an exclusive archetype. i.e. A Soak can also be a Tank, but a Tank is not necessarily a soak. Might diverge into Fighter or Tank depending on build choice.
Tank- Mostly Defense, dipping lightly into either Offense or Utility, more likely Utility. 80% to 20% split. Tanks are characterized with either some form of repeatable application Peel, some form of slow application offensive ability (DoTs, bleeds, burns, etc), or some Initiation ability.
Off-Tank- Sometimes hear this term. About 50/50 split between Defense and Utility. Usually has Peel of some sort to augment Tank role, thus the term "Off-Tank". Tanks when the Tank can't Tank or Peels when the Supports or Tank can't Peel. Typically no initiation ability. Minimal offensive ability.
Initiator- Characterized by having abilities that allow for favorable engagements on enemy players. Typically some sort of AOE loss-of-control application.
Peel- Support axis dealing with consistent application of movement impairment and enemy player loss-of-control (stuns, taunts, displacements, silences, etc). Also includes movement enhancement of allies (hastes and maybe dispels). Not an exclusive archetypes. ie. Tanks are typically defined as mostly defense with Peel potential.
Buffers/Debuffers- Support axis dealing with increasing/decreasing efficiency of other roles by pushing Offensive or Defensive capabilities.
Sustains- Support axis dealing with increasing the length of an encounter either at the strategic or tactical level. Includes resource management mitigation (heals, shields, secondary resource battery).
Support- Blanket term for avatars that invest in more than 80% Utility. Includes Peel, Buffers, Debuffers, Sustains.
That is really all it is. It's a dance, where you and the other team try to farm kills on the minions without being dumb and giving up a kill.
This is also where all the frustration starts, because new players often put insufficient weight on the "don't die" scale of goals, and it's the single most important goal.
Kill stealing, i.e. killing another player that your teammate honestly earned the kill on, is called "securing the kill" and you should always use your ult when playing as Karthus to do this, even if your team doesn't need you to.
So there is actually strategy all around what's called lane control. Often times you don't want to be attack the creeps because if you do, your lane will push towards your enemy. This means you have to move further from your own tower to stay in XP, harass and cs range. It also puts you in danger of getting "ganked." Ganking is when a jungler or other lane member comes to your lane in an attempt to kill you. Ideally, you often want to "freeze" the creep wave near your tower, putting your enemy in danger of getting ganked by your own team. Other times you want to push the lane as hard as you can as fast as you can letting you roam elsewhere. This forces your opponent to either miss out on gold/xp while his tower attacks the creeps or have one of his teammates be endangered by your roaming.
As to some champs being better than others at last hitting, AD Carries are naturally better because they do more damage with basic attacks. However, later in the game mages are typically better because they have AoE spells that can clear waves with one shot. Also characters that aren't as easy to last hit often excel in other areas of the gaem (1v1 duels, objective control.)
Oh you.
Is running a kill lane, which is obviously what Gabe is hinting at in the comic, now really some special "snowflake strategy"? The old meta revolved around kill lanes before the current one developed. And the current one might change again because AD Carries are hardly as effective as they used to be, with all the mobility creep that has been happening. It's hardly a setup which puts you into clear danger of losing, especially because there are so many other factors which are more important to your individual and the team's success.
I like this analogy, because it maps extensively to actual physical sports. There are softball leagues that are super competitive and full of douchebags who will abuse you if you lose because there's "some" proscribed meta because softball is "more competitive." There are also leagues full of people who enjoy playing softball and beer and are happy as long as everyone is putting in their best effort, but don't invest themselves psychically in the outcome the way people who care about ELO/league rankings do. In some sense people are trying to do what MLB does, but trying to play like MLB in a municipal softball league is psychotic.
I don't like the former kind of person any more in real life than I do in MOBAs. It just seems like it's exacerbated online because it's a bunch of neckbeards* or 12 year old brazilians or whatever who have anonymity, hormones, and little perspective what fun and sportsmanship is.
* I thought I was being uncharitable to generalize this way, then I walked into a few PC cafes where rows of people were playing LoL.
my second critique of the genre
a game which professes to be the digital analog to traditional team sports
the basic rules and premises of the game, outside of the map, change basically every week
you can't walk away from LoL for more than a few months without everything you know or thought you knew completely being turned on its ear
actual organized sports don't do this
hence a lot of the so-called "pro gamers" also happen to be people who can actually keep up with this shit
we also talk about other random shit and clown upon each other
It's a "snowflake strategy" in the way that the 2-point conversion is a "snowflake strategy" in football. That is, you don't see it very often because it's far less reliable and requires a herculean amount of effort to pull off, though the results are better if you can pull it off. They're not THAT rare, but they're not as good if all skill levels are equal. Kill lanes, if successfully avoided, aren't very productive and hinder the team later on once the power curve has switched. And, honestly, the kill lane usually only works when you outclass the other team in skill.
And I don't think Gabe is hinting at the kill lane strategy. He seems to be raging that there are role-rules at all. For an uninformed player it is probably really annoying to be told that he should take the really cool gargoyle wizard guy bottom with his buddy playing the really funny Bowser guy.
my personal pet peeve, picking a character than can very clearly be either AP or AD, then choosing the "wrong" one, and having to hear about it for the next 55 minutes
we also talk about other random shit and clown upon each other
pleasepaypreacher.net
they rotate
if you want one to use permanently, you have to either buy it or work it off through playing the game and earning points
we also talk about other random shit and clown upon each other
Yes. Developers have to feed and clothe themselves.
Well, is Gabe referring to Draft or Blind Pick?
Kill lanes can be great against squishy champs, but if they pick tankier champs that can still scale well, then a lot of the advantage of a kill lane is lost after the first few levels, no? I mean, how "kill-y" is the kill lane? What if they lane swap, push down the tower top really quickly, and come back bot a few levels later? Do you follow the duo lane top and lose some experience or try to outpush their typical top lane champ who can probably farm well under the tower?
Blind Pick I'm thinking would probably be a toss-up to do a successful kill lane. You might be a squishy lane or you might be paired up with some other lane comp that might counter your kill lane.
But for Draft? The other team has to really mess up their picks to walk blindly into a kill lane.
Which is another odd thing about MOBAs... At the competitive, professional level, picks are not something you do before the game. Picking is a PART of the game. Riot has also said that they fully endorse that picks and bans are an actually part of the game. The critical decision making starts the moment you enter the champion selection screen.
Imagine how intense baseball or footbal would be if you had to draft your players before every game.
Kind of. There is a "free" rotation of champions you can play that rotate on a weekly basis. You can pay to unlock more champions with either actual money or with earned in-game currency. You earn in-game currency by playing games in their matchmaking system. More if you win, less if you lose.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Well, no, not really. I've got several friends who've been playing since the game launched (so for several years) without paying any money.
But yes, it's a freemium game, so you can always pay money to have more characters/faster.