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[NHL] Thread; Wearing Adam Pardy's Helmet

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    That should be a loooooooooooooong suspension.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
  • ChanusChanus Sugoi! ^_____^Registered User regular
    Everybody's a shithead!

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  • quovadis13quovadis13 Registered User regular
    Wow that knee is just plain bad. Definition of dirty

  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    edited December 2013
    Can't watch the game live, but from what I can tell:

    Orpik's hit was unfortunate - he lined up with his shoulder to body before the puck arrived, as the puck passed Eriksson and he turned his head to follow it and they collided badly.
    Neal's knee to Marchand was a shitty, dirty hit. Neal should be suspended without a doubt.
    Thorton's attack on Orpik was awful. He should be suspended too, probably more than Neal.

    Jragghen on
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Neal's play is dirtier, but injury based suspensions mean you're probably right.

    The dirty thing Thornton did was really the slew foot. I mean, yeah, punches to the face, but that shit happens in hockey.

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  • ChanusChanus Sugoi! ^_____^Registered User regular
    Neal's play is dirtier, but injury based suspensions mean you're probably right.

    The dirty thing Thornton did was really the slew foot. I mean, yeah, punches to the face, but that shit happens in hockey.

    I'm fine with punches to the face, toe-to-toe

    Not so much from over top of a guy who's down on the ice

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  • shwaipshwaip Registered User regular
    Neal's play is dirtier, but injury based suspensions mean you're probably right.

    The dirty thing Thornton did was really the slew foot. I mean, yeah, punches to the face, but that shit happens in hockey.

    i think slew foot -> punching a defenseless, unexpecting player is dirtier.

    neal deserves something as well, for sure. Both should get something for intent to injure, thornton more because he slewfooted and punched.

    also now marchand slewfoots and gloved-hand punches maata?

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Chanus wrote: »
    Neal's play is dirtier, but injury based suspensions mean you're probably right.

    The dirty thing Thornton did was really the slew foot. I mean, yeah, punches to the face, but that shit happens in hockey.

    I'm fine with punches to the face, toe-to-toe

    Not so much from over top of a guy who's down on the ice

    Well, yeah, but still a thing that happens. I mean, it's still bad, don't get me wrong. The slew foot is the really dirty thing.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Le_Goat
  • shwaipshwaip Registered User regular
    So much for the possibility of rooting for boston when I move there in march

  • shwaipshwaip Registered User regular
    Orpik is at least awake and conscious according to the twitter.

  • Le_GoatLe_Goat Frechified Goat Person BostonRegistered User regular
    Schide wrote: »
    I'm expecting 6+ for Thorton and you'll have no argument from me at all.

    While I agree that being insensitive is an issue, so is being oversensitive.
  • quovadis13quovadis13 Registered User regular
    10 games for both isnt unreasonable at this moment, correct? At least before they appeal.

  • BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    edited December 2013
    If only fighting was allowed, this never would have happened.

    Why didn't our best (remaining) defenseman throw down with some jackass that doesn't even play hockey? Would've remedied the whole situation by just taking a good defenseman and a random jackass off the ice for an equal amount of time.

    Perfectly reasonable.



    Also, since Shawn Thorton doesn't actually play hockey, he probably should recieve a bigger suspension. And since neal is a star, he won't recieve a bigger suspension. Wrong reasons, right results?

    Burtletoy on
  • ChanusChanus Sugoi! ^_____^Registered User regular
    So the Rangers lose tonight because of the rule where you can kick a goal in if you're playing against the Rangers.

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  • DeadfallDeadfall Registered User regular
    If only fighting was allowed, this never would have happened.

    Come on man, no need for this. I don't think anybody here is arguing that it was an ok play.

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  • AegisAegis Not Quite TorontoRegistered User regular
    Leafs win after giving up 50 shots. Again. Meanwhile, Carlyle still thinks Fraser is a hockey player. After his performance tonight I can only imagine his minutes will go up!

    Someone please put me out of my misery.

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  • BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    Deadfall wrote: »
    If only fighting was allowed, this never would have happened.

    Come on man, no need for this. I don't think anybody here is arguing that it was an ok play.

    Thorton tried to fight Orpik, Orpik, being a hockey player rather than a waste of roster space goon rightfully declined.

    Thorton then proceeded to jump Orpik from behind and punch him while he was lying on the ice defenseless.


    If you don't think this is, yet another example of why fighting should be banned from the NHL, I'm sorry, but we don't see eye to eye.

    This is, what, the forth time this season we've had this exact same discussion? With the exact same "no one thinks this was good, but lets totally not stop fighting and in turn encourage people like thorton/scott/randomgoonguy to keep doing exactly what they are paid to do, ie injury players" responses?

    Schide
  • ChanusChanus Sugoi! ^_____^Registered User regular
    You're making the case that things shouldn't be legal because people break the rules. Nobody is defending Thorton because what he did is outside the scope of what is acceptable.

    Driving should be illegal because some people drive recklessly.

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  • BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    I'm arguing that the penalties for something that is already against the rules, fighting, should be harder so that people who are only paid to do the illegal thing, fighting, lose their place in the game.

    Fighting is against the rules. Shawn Thorton is paid to fight. Fighting penalties should be stronger so that it makes no sense to pay Tanner Glass Shawn Thorton to be a roster fighter.

    Schide
  • JayrichoJayricho Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    I almost feel like the fighting argument is becoming a Schrodinger's Cat kind of issue. Until fighting is banned we don't know whether fighting being banned would stop this stuff or not.

    Chanus
  • BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    And, again, if there was another argument being pushed to remove goons from the game; for example the one I think would be more effective, but significantly less likely to occur, reducing the NHL roster size by three, I would be a big proponent of it!

    But the only thing the media talks about in terms of reducing the prevelance of people paid to fight and injure people is harsher punishments and or fines.

    More rules against fighting.

    And since that is the only option that is discussed, it is also the one I agree with.

    If you have a different anti-goon change to the game I am all ears. But harsher rules towards fighting is the one that is going to happen in the next 3-5 years. I don't think it will be the most effective way to remove goons. But it is the most tenable, so I still support it.

    It's something. More than handwaving, at least.

  • PodlyPodly you unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered User regular
    edited December 2013
    Shawn Thorton totally deserves a hefty suspension and is a thug, but he's not some Clancy Brother reject. He's a good fourth line player that also likes to bash people's faces in.

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  • tinwhiskerstinwhiskers Registered User regular
    God this shit again. I knew it as soon as I saw like 25 unread posts it'd be something like this.

    I mean the game had a check to the head, a knee to the head, and then a mugging. So now we can argue 'if thorton had been able to instigate a fight with Orpik at the first opportunity Neal wouldn't have kneed Marchand' or 'If goons like Thorton weren't in the game no player would have picked a fight after the Neal knee'

    Honestly I find the Neal thing far more disturbing than Thorton much more of a calculated attempt to injure.

    Really the whole thing really solidifies how I see both teams. A bunch of sneaky dirty players who then wave the 'OMG LOOK AT THIS UNCALLED FOR VIOLENCE AGAINST US' Flag vs Goon Chowder sprinkled with Goon.

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  • BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    Hit to the head?

    And mugging a guy from behind that is already engaged with another player and then punching im while he is down and unconcious on the ice is less bad than a knee to the head of a defensiveless player?

    Did I miss when Neal subsequentially jumped on a downed player and repeatedly hit him in the head? Is there a youtube I missed?


    Also; hit to the head????

  • BurtletoyBurtletoy Registered User regular
    I take a lot of pride in that. I do. People could probably criticize that I’m a little too honorable, I suppose, in some instances. I've been a firm believer my whole life that what goes around comes around. If you’re one of those guys that suckers someone when they’re down or you go after somebody that doesn’t deserve it or isn’t the same category as you, that will come back and bite you at some point, too.

  • ArdolArdol Registered User regular
    "Obviously, I made a mistake. I'm aware of it. I've been told they're having a hearing and it's hard for me to say much more than that. It was not my intention. I feel awful. I felt sick all game," Thornton said.
    In the locker room afterward, he was genuinely almost in tears.

    "It's always my job, I guess, to defend my teammates," Thornton said. "But I prided myself for a long time to stay within the lines. It's hard for me to talk about right now. I can't say 'I'm sorry' enough. I'm sure I'll be criticized for saying it, but it's true and I hope he's doing all right. I heard that he's conscious and talking, and I'm happy for that."

    Thankfully the incident was atypical of Thornton. You can call him a hypocrite, but as you can see he knows what he did was wrong and regrets it. Seeing Eriksson go down with another concussion from another head shot (unintentional or no) just made the guy lose it.

  • JayrichoJayricho Ontario, CanadaRegistered User regular
    I've said it before and I'll say it again, the heavy hitting 4th line type players aren't going anywhere. Even with harsher fighting penalties teams are always going to employ these types of players to go out, make a few big hits and attempt to alter the pace of the game.

    That's not to say pylons like John Scott are always going to have a job. I'm sure some of them would get weeded out, but we're never going to see teams start looking like All-Star teams and rolling with 4 fast paced scoring lines. I'm also fairly certain that cutting teams to 3 lines is just not going to happen.

  • LeTwigLeTwig Registered User regular
    Between injuries and that Pit/Bos game, I am going to be hosed in the fantasy league. Congrats to whoever plays me in the next 2 weeks.

  • AgentBryantAgentBryant CTRegistered User regular
    I think it's funny how everyone is jumping on Thornton for being a paid fighter/goon/thug. He also happens to have more goals than half the penguins roster at this point in the season, and it's pretty insulting that people are describing him more like John Scott. Yes, what he did was shitty and he deserves a suspension for sure. But don't talk like he has a history for incidents like this.

    Le_GoatArdolPodlyChanus
  • Le_GoatLe_Goat Frechified Goat Person BostonRegistered User regular
    edited December 2013
    Goon Chowder sprinkled with Goon.
    I would like to know which beer to pair that with, please.

    Le_Goat on
    While I agree that being insensitive is an issue, so is being oversensitive.
  • shwaipshwaip Registered User regular
    gif of the orpik/erikson hit

    826268438.gif

    looks shoulder/shoulder to me, with a wicked head snap back giving him the concussion (or the head hitting the ice).

  • BlendtecBlendtec PittsburghRegistered User regular
    There's a big difference between fighting and just being a worthless goon.

    What I wanna know, is when is the league gonna step in and mandate concussed players stay out longer? Yeah, that hit on Erikson was kinda freak, but I can't help but feel that if he had more time to recover from his first concussion, this one might've been avoided.

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  • Nova_CNova_C I have the need The need for speedRegistered User regular
    I'm not a fan of fighting in hockey. I used to be, when the constant dirty play was only frustrating, but now I find the state of the NHL to be wholly unacceptable. I don't watch it anymore. Really, the 'straw' that broke the camel's back, so to speak, was how dirty the Flames became a few years back. They're my team. I can't cheer for a bunch of tools. I want to watch Hockey, not MMA (Note: I can't watch MMA because I find authentic violence to be incredibly disturbing).

    So I would support an outright ban on fighting.

    But you know what would keep players even safer? Proper application of the rules they have now. For years now attempting to injure another player is worth the risk. You could knock a star out of the game for months and maybe you get suspended, maybe you don't. If you do, maybe it's for a game or two, maybe five. It's worth the risk in a purely risk versus reward calculation.

    You make the players pay hard for unsafe play? Play gets safer.

    Teams will naturally have fewer and less brutal enforcers as a result.

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited December 2013
    shwaip wrote: »
    gif of the orpik/erikson hit

    *snip*

    looks shoulder/shoulder to me, with a wicked head snap back giving him the concussion (or the head hitting the ice).

    Not a great angle, but as a fan of Detroit I cannot condemn that hit as it looks like everything Kronwall's ever done.

    enlightenedbum on
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  • ChanusChanus Sugoi! ^_____^Registered User regular
    I apologize for calling Thorton a piece of shit earlier. I was thinking of that dickhead on the Sharks.

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  • DeadfallDeadfall Registered User regular
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    Deadfall wrote: »
    If only fighting was allowed, this never would have happened.

    Come on man, no need for this. I don't think anybody here is arguing that it was an ok play.

    Thorton tried to fight Orpik, Orpik, being a hockey player rather than a waste of roster space goon rightfully declined.

    Thorton then proceeded to jump Orpik from behind and punch him while he was lying on the ice defenseless.


    If you don't think this is, yet another example of why fighting should be banned from the NHL, I'm sorry, but we don't see eye to eye.

    This is, what, the forth time this season we've had this exact same discussion? With the exact same "no one thinks this was good, but lets totally not stop fighting and in turn encourage people like thorton/scott/randomgoonguy to keep doing exactly what they are paid to do, ie injury players" responses?

    On paid goons, I agree with you! I don't like players that are paid for two minutes of ice time to knock someone out.

    What I was trying to comment on was the multiple posts of passive aggressive remarks on fighting (not just from you).

    "Boy, sure glad fighting is allowed, it discourages dangerous plays like this!"

    We get it but I'm not sure who you're trying to convince. I'll admit I didn't watch the full game, but I caught every highlight I could. The refs clearly lost control of that game early on. And unless I missed something big I didn't see anyone here encouraging straight-up hitmen to injure players? Though I wish I hadn't peeked at hfboards, yikes.

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  • MatriasMatrias Registered User regular
    edited December 2013
    Thornton went full-Bertuzzi. You never go full-Bertuzzi!

    The Penguins need to never have respect for anyone. How unrepentant Neal's comments were was disturbing. That team is at the center of so many incidents that I seriously wonder if that roster places itself on a pedestal and thinks itself is too good for respect.

    Shawn Thornton is one of those guys who believes all the code/honor nonsense that players spout, but the truth is violence is violence and judgement and reason flees with adrenaline. Let's just not have it.

    Matrias on
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  • MatriasMatrias Registered User regular
    edited December 2013
    also the Thornton's problem is he thinks his core responsibility is to go out and punch shit (with the Bruins, maybe it is?). He's perfectly capable of just playing effective hockey and that's the sad thing. It's the culture.

    Matrias on
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  • Le_GoatLe_Goat Frechified Goat Person BostonRegistered User regular
    edited December 2013
    Before saying anything, I want to reiterate that I am not defending the actions of Thorton, nor am I suggesting that he not be suspended, because I think he definitely deserves a suspension here. I'm also not re-engaging the completely unneeded pro- vs. anti-fighting debate; this is strictly about rules enforcement and disciplinary decisions.

    I'm a huge rules and law buff. Some find it terribly annoying, but I see rules as clear-cut, black and white, and should be equally enforced across the board. That being the case, I'm really interested to see how the league rules on and justifies Thorton's suspension; we all know and agree that he's going to get one, so please do not read into my use of "justify." The very interesting aspect (to me at least) is rule 46.17
    46.17 Fines and Suspensions – Aggressor - A player who is deemed to be the aggressor for the third time in one Regular season shall be suspended for the next two regular season games of his team.
    That almost makes it seem like until Thorton has been deemed an aggressor three times within a single regular season (although Rule 46 states that pre-season can also be considered if warranted), the player is not subject for suspension. Although many here may disagree, Thorton is usually good at stopping a fight when appropriate and not pummelling a defenseless player; I've seen him signal to the refs to stop a fight when he had the opposing guy with his shirt over his head. He obviously crossed the line in the Orpik incident and no sane person can say he wasn't an aggressor nor say that he deserves to be let off the hook like Emery.

    While it's easy to say that since he's never been suspended before that it should be taken into consideration, Scott had never been suspended before the hit to Erikson and was dished 7 games, so we can expect the same for Thorton. I'm just very curious to see how the league explains it. Like I said, I'm a huge rule/law buff, so those explaination videos that NHL.com provides to disciplinary actions are very interesting to me. I don't know every rule by heart and often have to look them up for details, so I'm guessing I'm missing a rule that better explains some of this. If you know of it, I'd love to get pointed in the right direction because this sort of stuff fascinates me.

    Reminder: I am not trying to be a jerk or defender of Thorton. I'm also not trying to be insensitive to the nature of Orpik's injury. I just love the process of rules enforcement.

    Also: Anyone heard how Orpik is doing? Last I heard was the he was conversing, which is a good sign.

    Le_Goat on
    While I agree that being insensitive is an issue, so is being oversensitive.
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