Michigan Politics: Currently Under Quarantine

enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
edited March 27 in Debate and/or Discourse
So from my neck of the woods, we have this.
Citing runaway deficits and long-term debts Detroit could never repay on its own, Gov. Rick Snyder today pulled the trigger and announced he will appoint an emergency financial manager for the state’s largest city. Snyder said he has a top candidate in mind, and that person would be in charge for 18 months.

The decision means Motown will soon have a new boss in charge of restructuring Detroit’s dire financial mess. That restructuring likely will include drastic cuts in public services and a top-down rethinking of the type of government a shrunken city with a dwindling tax base can afford.

In many ways, those questions have been nipping at Detroit for decades, but the issues came to a head over the last 18 months as increasingly dour economic forecasts found a city unable to address fundamental questions about its debt.

“I look at today as a sad day, a day I wish had never happened in the history of Detroit, but also a day of optimism and promise,” Snyder said.

This is, of course, via the Emergency Financial Manager Law we repealed at the ballot box in November, but our wonderful state legislature and governor told the citizens to collectively fuck off and passed a new one, and as a bonus made it so we can't repeal it at the ballot box this time, because technically it's a "spending bill."

As a sidenote, and this is totally unexpected and unintended /sarcasm! Half of the state's African Americans no longer have an elected local government.

EDIT: Oh right, approximate cost to the state so far: $1 billion.

Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
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  • The Dude With HerpesThe Dude With Herpes Registered User regular
    How the fuck is this in any way constitutional?

    This isn't some third world country, we don't fucking dissolve our elected governments on whims because the higher ups don't like how it's going and do it how they want.

    I grew up just outside of Detroit, though I haven't lived there in well over a decade; but this shit still touches home because I have a lot of friends and some in-laws back there. I've been following the whole 'takeover' nonsense since it started and every step I've just been in complete disbelief.

    It just feels like something should be happening here, that is not. I know it'd make some of the crazies out there in rural MI with their militias nuts, but it seems like the federal government should be stepping in here and saying "uh...you don't get to just toss out governments you don't like and do whatever the fuck you want" Isn't that precisely the sort of shit that we, you know, fought a revolution over?

    Is this something that is going to court at all? There's no way this could survive a constitutional test.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    I believe there's a court case somewhere in the system, but not sure if it applies anymore because it was focused on the old law we voted down.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
  • TheBlackWindTheBlackWind Registered User regular
    City governments basically exist at the behest of the state.

    It's still super shitty though.

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  • Tiger BurningTiger Burning Dig if you will, the pictureRegistered User, SolidSaints Tube regular
    How the fuck is this in any way constitutional?

    This isn't some third world country, we don't fucking dissolve our elected governments on whims because the higher ups don't like how it's going and do it how they want.

    I grew up just outside of Detroit, though I haven't lived there in well over a decade; but this shit still touches home because I have a lot of friends and some in-laws back there. I've been following the whole 'takeover' nonsense since it started and every step I've just been in complete disbelief.

    It just feels like something should be happening here, that is not. I know it'd make some of the crazies out there in rural MI with their militias nuts, but it seems like the federal government should be stepping in here and saying "uh...you don't get to just toss out governments you don't like and do whatever the fuck you want" Isn't that precisely the sort of shit that we, you know, fought a revolution over?

    Is this something that is going to court at all? There's no way this could survive a constitutional test.

    Local governments aren't recognized by the US constitution. They exist and operate only according to state law - they're extensions of state government.

    Ain't no particular sign I'm more compatible with
  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Alexandria, VARegistered User regular
    And states are required to provide a republican form of government to the citizens, which this is not.

  • Tiger BurningTiger Burning Dig if you will, the pictureRegistered User, SolidSaints Tube regular
    And states are required to provide a republican form of government to the citizens, which this is not.

    So long as they're still allowed to vote for state representatives, that's covered.

    Ain't no particular sign I'm more compatible with
    spacekungfuman
  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    How the fuck is this in any way constitutional?

    This isn't some third world country, we don't fucking dissolve our elected governments on whims because the higher ups don't like how it's going and do it how they want.

    I grew up just outside of Detroit, though I haven't lived there in well over a decade; but this shit still touches home because I have a lot of friends and some in-laws back there. I've been following the whole 'takeover' nonsense since it started and every step I've just been in complete disbelief.

    It just feels like something should be happening here, that is not. I know it'd make some of the crazies out there in rural MI with their militias nuts, but it seems like the federal government should be stepping in here and saying "uh...you don't get to just toss out governments you don't like and do whatever the fuck you want" Isn't that precisely the sort of shit that we, you know, fought a revolution over?

    Is this something that is going to court at all? There's no way this could survive a constitutional test.

    Local governments aren't recognized by the US constitution. They exist and operate only according to state law - they're extensions of state government.

    That seems like a very dangerous state of mind to adhere to.

    Nobody likes me but that's okay. I'm used to it.
  • Tiger BurningTiger Burning Dig if you will, the pictureRegistered User, SolidSaints Tube regular
    edited March 2013
    Henroid wrote: »
    How the fuck is this in any way constitutional?

    This isn't some third world country, we don't fucking dissolve our elected governments on whims because the higher ups don't like how it's going and do it how they want.

    I grew up just outside of Detroit, though I haven't lived there in well over a decade; but this shit still touches home because I have a lot of friends and some in-laws back there. I've been following the whole 'takeover' nonsense since it started and every step I've just been in complete disbelief.

    It just feels like something should be happening here, that is not. I know it'd make some of the crazies out there in rural MI with their militias nuts, but it seems like the federal government should be stepping in here and saying "uh...you don't get to just toss out governments you don't like and do whatever the fuck you want" Isn't that precisely the sort of shit that we, you know, fought a revolution over?

    Is this something that is going to court at all? There's no way this could survive a constitutional test.

    Local governments aren't recognized by the US constitution. They exist and operate only according to state law - they're extensions of state government.

    That seems like a very dangerous state of mind to adhere to.

    Why? There's no inalienable right for some people to have some particular extra level of government at the local level, and it's not like individual localities have a particularly good record when it comes to good governance.

    Surely we're not all, States' Rights are dumb, but Cities', Towns' and Counties' Rights..

    Tiger Burning on
    Ain't no particular sign I'm more compatible with
    spool32CaptainNemo
  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Alexandria, VARegistered User regular
    States do not have the right to do whatever the hell they want. People have the right to elect their own local government, rather than having officials appointed by the governor at his whim.

  • MrMisterMrMister Please demonstrate your enthusiasm for e-marking and/or e-assessment with examplesRegistered User regular
    States do not have the right to do whatever the hell they want. People have the right to elect their own local government, rather than having officials appointed by the governor at his whim.

    Perhaps they ought to, but legally they do not.

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  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    MrMister wrote: »
    States do not have the right to do whatever the hell they want. People have the right to elect their own local government, rather than having officials appointed by the governor at his whim.

    Perhaps they ought to, but legally they do not.

    That really depends on the state constitutions. They, too, are legally binding documents, and many of them are very explicit about the lines and responsibilities between the state, county and municipal governments.

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited March 2013
    States do not have the right to do whatever the hell they want. People have the right to elect their own local government, rather than having officials appointed by the governor at his whim.

    Specifically, corporate cronies who will be selling off the city's assets at discount prices (50/50 whoever gets them will coincidentally be in the blind trust Snyder's got while he's our Governor).

    enlightenedbum on
    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
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  • Tiger BurningTiger Burning Dig if you will, the pictureRegistered User, SolidSaints Tube regular
    MrMister wrote: »
    States do not have the right to do whatever the hell they want. People have the right to elect their own local government, rather than having officials appointed by the governor at his whim.

    Perhaps they ought to, but legally they do not.

    That really depends on the state constitutions. They, too, are legally binding documents, and many of them are very explicit about the lines and responsibilities between the state, county and municipal governments.

    That's true, too.

    Ain't no particular sign I'm more compatible with
  • LanzLanz Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    How the fuck is this in any way constitutional?

    This isn't some third world country, we don't fucking dissolve our elected governments on whims because the higher ups don't like how it's going and do it how they want.

    I grew up just outside of Detroit, though I haven't lived there in well over a decade; but this shit still touches home because I have a lot of friends and some in-laws back there. I've been following the whole 'takeover' nonsense since it started and every step I've just been in complete disbelief.

    It just feels like something should be happening here, that is not. I know it'd make some of the crazies out there in rural MI with their militias nuts, but it seems like the federal government should be stepping in here and saying "uh...you don't get to just toss out governments you don't like and do whatever the fuck you want" Isn't that precisely the sort of shit that we, you know, fought a revolution over?

    Is this something that is going to court at all? There's no way this could survive a constitutional test.

    Local governments aren't recognized by the US constitution. They exist and operate only according to state law - they're extensions of state government.

    That seems like a very dangerous state of mind to adhere to.

    Why? There's no inalienable right for some people to have some particular extra level of government at the local level, and it's not like individual localities have a particularly good record when it comes to good governance.

    Surely we're not all, States' Rights are dumb, but Cities', Towns' and Counties' Rights..

    The right of the people to a democratically elected locality isn't Localities' Rights.

    waNkm4k.jpg?1
  • Tiger BurningTiger Burning Dig if you will, the pictureRegistered User, SolidSaints Tube regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    How the fuck is this in any way constitutional?

    This isn't some third world country, we don't fucking dissolve our elected governments on whims because the higher ups don't like how it's going and do it how they want.

    I grew up just outside of Detroit, though I haven't lived there in well over a decade; but this shit still touches home because I have a lot of friends and some in-laws back there. I've been following the whole 'takeover' nonsense since it started and every step I've just been in complete disbelief.

    It just feels like something should be happening here, that is not. I know it'd make some of the crazies out there in rural MI with their militias nuts, but it seems like the federal government should be stepping in here and saying "uh...you don't get to just toss out governments you don't like and do whatever the fuck you want" Isn't that precisely the sort of shit that we, you know, fought a revolution over?

    Is this something that is going to court at all? There's no way this could survive a constitutional test.

    Local governments aren't recognized by the US constitution. They exist and operate only according to state law - they're extensions of state government.

    That seems like a very dangerous state of mind to adhere to.

    Why? There's no inalienable right for some people to have some particular extra level of government at the local level, and it's not like individual localities have a particularly good record when it comes to good governance.

    Surely we're not all, States' Rights are dumb, but Cities', Towns' and Counties' Rights..

    The right of the people to a democratically elected locality isn't Localities' Rights.

    Sure it is, if you're asserting that they have power they can wield in contravention of the authority of the encompassing body.

    Ain't no particular sign I'm more compatible with
  • quovadis13quovadis13 Registered User regular
    City services? Who needs them!

    I am pretty much expecting them to bring on a Ron Swanson type here and I am not looking forward to the changes you can expect from that kind of thinking

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    quovadis13 wrote: »
    City services? Who needs them!

    I am pretty much expecting them to bring on a Ron Swanson type here and I am not looking forward to the changes you can expect from that kind of thinking

    Ron Swanson is many things, but a corrupt douchebag is not one of them.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
    SCREECH OF THE FARG
  • Gandalf_the_CrazedGandalf_the_Crazed Vigilo ConfidoRegistered User regular
    Ah yes, so THIS is how Gotham City is born.

    PEUsig_zps56da03ec.jpg
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  • quovadis13quovadis13 Registered User regular
    Ah yes, so THIS is how Gotham City is born.

    Unfortunately, I don't think Mike Ilitch is going to turn into Batman

  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Ah yes, so THIS is how Gotham City is born.

    Well, there has to be an earthquake first that isolates Detroit from the country.

    Nobody likes me but that's okay. I'm used to it.
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    quovadis13 wrote: »
    Ah yes, so THIS is how Gotham City is born.

    Unfortunately, I don't think Mike Ilitch is going to turn into Batman

    Mike Ilitch has pretty shitty politics.

    Lidstrom would be our Batman. Or Barry Sanders.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
    wazilla
  • SammyFSammyF Registered User regular
    MrMister wrote: »
    States do not have the right to do whatever the hell they want. People have the right to elect their own local government, rather than having officials appointed by the governor at his whim.

    Perhaps they ought to, but legally they do not.

    That really depends on the state constitutions. They, too, are legally binding documents, and many of them are very explicit about the lines and responsibilities between the state, county and municipal governments.

    I have no idea how it works in Michigan, but in Virginia a lot of that stuff is also explicitly part of the municipal charter.

  • quovadis13quovadis13 Registered User regular
    quovadis13 wrote: »
    Ah yes, so THIS is how Gotham City is born.

    Unfortunately, I don't think Mike Ilitch is going to turn into Batman

    Mike Ilitch has pretty shitty politics.

    Lidstrom would be our Batman. Or Barry Sanders.

    Barry quit on Detroit once already (not that I blame him). The only athelete with experience in doing a thankless job in Detroit is obviously Chris Osgood

    SammyFzagdrob
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    quovadis13 wrote: »
    quovadis13 wrote: »
    Ah yes, so THIS is how Gotham City is born.

    Unfortunately, I don't think Mike Ilitch is going to turn into Batman

    Mike Ilitch has pretty shitty politics.

    Lidstrom would be our Batman. Or Barry Sanders.

    Barry quit on Detroit once already (not that I blame him). The only athelete with experience in doing a thankless job in Detroit is obviously Chris Osgood

    Also the guy responsible for denying Verlander is sleeping with Kate Upton. But we digress.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
    RedTide
  • spacekungfumanspacekungfuman Poor and minority-filled Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    There is precedent for this occurring, although its usually based on intolerable crime rates, not money. Either way, if this is really a short term situation then it is possible that it could be a net good, especially if the city government was not on a strong executive model. But if it lasts too long, and the cuts are too deep, then it might just hasten the demise of the city.

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    The problem here isn't that the state can shut down local governments.

    Cause yeah, in a lot of states your municipal governments are just arms of the state government (hence the season three storyline of Parks and Rec).

    The problem is that the people of Michigan made it clear they didn't like this rule and their government told them to shove it anyway.

    I don't think you have a recourse outside of voting out the awful though.

    Lh96QHG.png
    spacekungfumanEdith Upwards
  • quovadis13quovadis13 Registered User regular
    Detroit is obviously in a very difficult situation and does need to change many things about how it operates. However, the solutions this emergency manager will provide will very likely be short sighted and will ultimately leave Detroit in a worse place in the long run.

    What's the countdown until they sell Belle Isle??

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Snyder is probably toast in 2014 (the lame duck session pissed a lot of his supporters off). The problem is, our legislature is pretty much permanently dominated by not-southeast Michigan, which are the liberal bits. It's very hard for the Dems to win the legislature. Not impossible, but hard.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
  • spacekungfumanspacekungfuman Poor and minority-filled Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    I'm pretty sure that all the complaints would disapear if they put this guy in charge:

    1060397.jpg

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    quovadis13 wrote: »
    Detroit is obviously in a very difficult situation and does need to change many things about how it operates. However, the solutions this emergency manager will provide will very likely be short sighted and will ultimately leave Detroit in a worse place in the long run.

    What's the countdown until they sell Belle Isle??

    Probably to a group of libertarians who want to start a semi-independent commonwealth.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
  • SammyFSammyF Registered User regular
    edited March 2013
    The problem here isn't that the state can shut down local governments.

    Cause yeah, in a lot of states your municipal governments are just arms of the state government (hence the season three storyline of Parks and Rec).

    The problem is that the people of Michigan made it clear they didn't like this rule and their government told them to shove it anyway.

    I don't think you have a recourse outside of voting out the awful though.

    It's kind of both problems to my mind -- I am only marginally interesting in learning about the interplay between the government of the state of Michigan as well as those of its respective municipalities, but glancing at Detroit's charter and Michigan's constitution, I see that the state largely ceded a lot of questions about how local government is supposed to work to the electors of a city or village's municipality. I thought that was interesting as a D.C. resident by way of Virginia -- in D.C. our home rule is subject to the whims of the Federal legislature on a lot of issues, and likewise in Virginia, municipalities are guaranteed certain forms of government, but the powers of that local government are defined very strictly by the municipal charter, and city or county charters are all as a matter of general law defined by the state government when they are drafted and voted upon by the state's General Assembly.

    So when I opened Detroit's charter and saw that the first words about how this city plans to run its government were "We, the people of Detroit," I was rather surprised.

    EDIT: One other thing I noticed though is that while Article VII of Michigan's constitution leaves drafting and adopting charters for local government up to the electors of a given municipality, they do take the time to state that no municipality shall ever have the authority to incur such debt as to exceed 10% of its assessed valuation, so if Snyder is going to try and take over a municipal government on any grounds, its debt is probably the strongest constitutional grounds for that argument (although I have no idea what Detroit's debt looks like, beyond "probably not very good at all.")

    SammyF on
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited March 2013
    I'm pretty sure that all the complaints would disapear if they put this guy in charge:

    1060397.jpg

    Detriot isn't that lucky. They'd end up with ED-209.

    Harry Dresden on
    JeanAntimatterEvigilantBloodySlothzagdrobHacksaw
  • spacekungfumanspacekungfuman Poor and minority-filled Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Snyder is probably toast in 2014 (the lame duck session pissed a lot of his supporters off). The problem is, our legislature is pretty much permanently dominated by not-southeast Michigan, which are the liberal bits. It's very hard for the Dems to win the legislature. Not impossible, but hard.

    You are also assuming that the controller will actually allocate resources to assuring an orderly vote is held in Detroit, I assume. . .

  • SammyFSammyF Registered User regular
    Maybe the PA forums could loan them The Geth.

    The only payment he needs is your paranoia and tears!

    lonelyahavaJaysonFour
  • JeanJean Papa bear Gatineau, QuébecRegistered User regular
    Detroit has been going downhill for so long than this latest devlopment doesn't exactly surprise me.

    Detroit, Clevland , East St Louis.. the USA certainly have a lot of fucked up cities.

    "You won't destroy us, You won't destroy our democracy. We are a small but proud nation. No one can bomb us to silence. No one can scare us from being Norway. This evening and tonight, we'll take care of each other. That's what we do best when attacked'' - Jens Stoltenberg
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    Snyder is probably toast in 2014 (the lame duck session pissed a lot of his supporters off). The problem is, our legislature is pretty much permanently dominated by not-southeast Michigan, which are the liberal bits. It's very hard for the Dems to win the legislature. Not impossible, but hard.

    Detroit is solidly Democrat, though, and has been for the last 50 years, right?

  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    Lanz wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    How the fuck is this in any way constitutional?

    This isn't some third world country, we don't fucking dissolve our elected governments on whims because the higher ups don't like how it's going and do it how they want.

    I grew up just outside of Detroit, though I haven't lived there in well over a decade; but this shit still touches home because I have a lot of friends and some in-laws back there. I've been following the whole 'takeover' nonsense since it started and every step I've just been in complete disbelief.

    It just feels like something should be happening here, that is not. I know it'd make some of the crazies out there in rural MI with their militias nuts, but it seems like the federal government should be stepping in here and saying "uh...you don't get to just toss out governments you don't like and do whatever the fuck you want" Isn't that precisely the sort of shit that we, you know, fought a revolution over?

    Is this something that is going to court at all? There's no way this could survive a constitutional test.

    Local governments aren't recognized by the US constitution. They exist and operate only according to state law - they're extensions of state government.

    That seems like a very dangerous state of mind to adhere to.

    Why? There's no inalienable right for some people to have some particular extra level of government at the local level, and it's not like individual localities have a particularly good record when it comes to good governance.

    Surely we're not all, States' Rights are dumb, but Cities', Towns' and Counties' Rights..

    The right of the people to a democratically elected locality isn't Localities' Rights.

    You don't, in fact, have this right, in virtually the entire planet. Self-determination applies at the national level.

    aRkpc.gif
    spool32
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    emnmnme wrote: »
    Snyder is probably toast in 2014 (the lame duck session pissed a lot of his supporters off). The problem is, our legislature is pretty much permanently dominated by not-southeast Michigan, which are the liberal bits. It's very hard for the Dems to win the legislature. Not impossible, but hard.

    Detroit is solidly Democrat, though, and has been for the last 50 years, right?

    It's majority black, so yes.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    quovadis13 wrote: »
    Detroit is obviously in a very difficult situation and does need to change many things about how it operates. However, the solutions this emergency manager will provide will very likely be short sighted and will ultimately leave Detroit in a worse place in the long run.

    What's the countdown until they sell Belle Isle??

    Probably to a group of libertarians who want to start a semi-independent commonwealth.

    That thing is such a scam its amazing.

    wbBv3fj.png
    kedinik
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    The issue is that these emergency managers aren't any better for the cities they are appointed dictator of. So Snyder takes their local respresentation, appoints a dictator, and things get worse not better. In one case the emergency manager directly took public lands and sold them to a rich corporation so they could turn a public park into a golf course.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    Http:// pleasepaypreacher.net
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