Michigan Politics: Currently Under Quarantine

2456754

Posts

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    The issue is that these emergency managers aren't any better for the cities they are appointed dictator of. So Snyder takes their local respresentation, appoints a dictator, and things get worse not better. In one case the emergency manager directly took public lands and sold them to a rich corporation so they could turn a public park into a golf course.

    Specifically, Whirlpool, which is owned by the Uptons of Rep. Fred Upton and model Kate fame.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
  • FeralFeral MEMETICHARIZARD along with you if I get drunk well I know I'm gonna be gonna be the man whoRegistered User regular
    America: where we bail out banks, airlines, and car companies, but let municipalities go bankrupt.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
    MrMisterMrVyngaardHacksawEdith UpwardsMahnmutHachfaceMetzger MeisterzepherinNeco
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    Feral wrote: »
    America: where we bail out banks, airlines, and car companies, but let municipalities go bankrupt.

    If the government gave Detroit a $100 billion check, could they pay it back within a few years?

    spacekungfumanzepherin
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Republicans in the state house would probably try to find a way to steal it, so no.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
    FeralshrykeHacksawskyknytJaysonFourHachfaceMetzger Meisterzepherin
  • wazillawazilla Registered User regular
    Can't wait to see who becomes fabulously richer as a result of all this.

    Can.

    Not.

    Wait.

    Psn:wazukki
    FeralHacksawEdith Upwards
  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    so when do they start selling off bits and pieces of the city
    I would like to purchase this
    spirit-of-detroit-3-300x225.jpg
    I have $50

    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
    Gandalf_the_CrazedAresProphetPodlyShadowfireMrVyngaardHacksawzepherin
  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited March 2013
    One correction to the OP: This is not under the law that was repealed. It's under the previous law, which was not - the proposition did not repeal the previous law which has existed for decades, only the new additions.

    The repeal only stopped them from being installed in pretty much any city with a lot of debt (several of the cities being considered to get them were not in any immediate danger despite their debt loads), it did very little to limit their powers, since they could already replace elected officials, break contracts without penalty, and sell protected assets.

    Hevach on
    Geth
  • spacekungfumanspacekungfuman Poor and minority-filled Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Well, if they manage to drive all the poor people out by cutting services, and then do forced gentrification, a lot of people could become rich, and the city could actually turn around, but it won't help most of the people that actually live there now. . .

  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    quovadis13 wrote: »
    Detroit is obviously in a very difficult situation and does need to change many things about how it operates. However, the solutions this emergency manager will provide will very likely be short sighted and will ultimately leave Detroit in a worse place in the long run.

    What's the countdown until they sell Belle Isle??

    Probably to a group of libertarians who want to start a semi-independent commonwealth.

    This shit is fascinating. Not because it's likely-if there was a backlash about transferring it from the city to the state, can you imagine how people would take to selling it to a bunch of crazy secessionists? But because, honestly, there are not many honest proposals to actually create a real-life version of Rapture from Bioshock that might, possibly, maybe happen.

    Despite the horrific disaster it would be, I kind of want to see it happen. See what happens when you get a bunch of libertarians out of the political leadership and into their own little banana republic.

    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
    Hexmage-PA
  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited March 2013
    Republicans in the state house would probably try to find a way to steal it, so no.

    If we loaned a wholly ideologically-uncompromised municpal government $100 billion, could any possible government use the funds to resolve the debt and the loan? Because that's pretty darned implausible.

    There's a touch of this attitude here:
    ronya wrote: »
    Of course, every politician is going to insist that if only things were done Their Way, growth would be tremendous and they'd certainly be able to repay any loan extended to them. Wait, what do you mean nobody believes me? Not even the LOLR? DAMN IT, I DESERVE TO HAVE MY FANTASIES ENDORSED BY THE IMF

    but these plans are always interesting to hear, even if it a little fantastical. So let's hear it. What does a non-Republican-stolen municipal government do with $100 billion in loans?

    ronya on
    aRkpc.gif
  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited March 2013
    Deleted.

    Harry Dresden on
  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    Perhaps we should just prohibit municipal entities from promising bond repayments or pensions to begin with, under the principle that a locally democratic entity should not be bound by contractual agreements made by past local governments.

    aRkpc.gif
    GethspacekungfumanKalkinoSmrtnik
  • SammyFSammyF Registered User regular
    ronya wrote: »
    Perhaps we should just prohibit municipal entities from promising bond repayments or pensions to begin with, under the principle that a locally democratic entity should not be bound by contractual agreements made by past local governments.

    Codifying that principle would be problematic when it comes to hiring a private construction company to build a bridge during an election year.

    Although I've sat on enough roads that have been perpetually under construction during my entire adult life that I'm not so sure I take issue with incentivizing the building crew to finish the fuck up before the check book is handed over to someone else.

  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    SammyF wrote: »
    ronya wrote: »
    Perhaps we should just prohibit municipal entities from promising bond repayments or pensions to begin with, under the principle that a locally democratic entity should not be bound by contractual agreements made by past local governments.

    Codifying that principle would be problematic when it comes to hiring a private construction company to build a bridge during an election year.

    Although I've sat on enough roads that have been perpetually under construction during my entire adult life that I'm not so sure I take issue with incentivizing the building crew to finish the fuck up before the check book is handed over to someone else.

    The municipal government would just have to accumulate assets first. That would significantly impair infrastructural investment, but that's the cost of arguing that local governments should not find themselves bound by contracts made in less cautious times.

    aRkpc.gif
  • Hexmage-PAHexmage-PA Registered User regular
    I forget; was Hobo With a Shotgun set in Detroit, or just filmed there?

    Friend Code: 1590-5696-7916
    Friend Safari Type: Rock
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    ronya wrote: »
    Perhaps we should just prohibit municipal entities from promising bond repayments or pensions to begin with, under the principle that a locally democratic entity should not be bound by contractual agreements made by past local governments.

    This is, perhaps, a worse plan than the theoretical 100 billion cash infusion from the feds.

    It is simply not a functional argument when it comes to American municipal governments. You would need to restructure state governments completely to make this work, which is more fantastical than the idea that the federal government should sweep in with a bailout for every failing town and city in the country.

    The state takeover of municipal governments is a thing, has been for years. The issue here is that Michigan voted in a bunch of assholes who we don't trust, apparently, into the state government. Which, yeah, I wouldn't trust someone Rick Scott installed in my area so I get that.

    Lh96QHG.png
    Hacksaw
  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    the notion that, nope, you don't have locally democratic sovereignty is certainly fine with me, but it seems to surprise some people, who appear to consider it as an inalienable right

    which in the context of a higher government that is committed toward macroeconomic stability, and yet ensures individual mobility between subordinate jurisdictions, means sacrificing other local discretions to make the system work

    aRkpc.gif
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    ronya wrote: »
    the notion that, nope, you don't have locally democratic sovereignty is certainly fine with me, but it seems to surprise some people, who appear to consider it as an inalienable right

    which in the context of a higher government that is committed toward macroeconomic stability, and yet ensures individual mobility between subordinate jurisdictions, means sacrificing other local discretions to make the system work

    For someone who posts in American politics threads so often, you seem pretty surprised that localism would be a strong and driving force within that wheelhouse.

    Even a town as small as mine (population 6,188 per the 2000 census) has its own pension and bond issue responsibilities. If you want to try convincing 25,000+ different local governments that they no longer get to exist more power to you, but that seems like a waste of energy to me.

    Having the state government, which in most cases is the supreme governing authority when it comes to municipal governments, have the power to step in and rectify the budget isn't novel, either. It just means that people need to start voting yes on tax rises.

    Lh96QHG.png
    HacksawEdith Upwards
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    I don't mind this in principle. I mind that Snyder isn't the benevolent dictator that Detroit's people need.

    a7iea7nzewtq.jpg
    QuidHacksawEdith Upwards
  • Clown ShoesClown Shoes Give me hay or give me death. Registered User regular
    Synthesis wrote: »
    quovadis13 wrote: »
    Detroit is obviously in a very difficult situation and does need to change many things about how it operates. However, the solutions this emergency manager will provide will very likely be short sighted and will ultimately leave Detroit in a worse place in the long run.

    What's the countdown until they sell Belle Isle??

    Probably to a group of libertarians who want to start a semi-independent commonwealth.

    This shit is fascinating. Not because it's likely-if there was a backlash about transferring it from the city to the state, can you imagine how people would take to selling it to a bunch of crazy secessionists? But because, honestly, there are not many honest proposals to actually create a real-life version of Rapture from Bioshock that might, possibly, maybe happen.

    Despite the horrific disaster it would be, I kind of want to see it happen. See what happens when you get a bunch of libertarians out of the political leadership and into their own little banana republic.

    The real fun begins after they've spent all that money building the place up and moved in - when you point out that they're surrounded by US territory, you refuse to let them enter your airspace/waters and you charge insane tolls on the trucks that bring food across the bridge. Once you've milked them for enough to get the city out of debt, you let them off the island.

  • NoughtNought Registered User regular
    Synthesis wrote: »
    quovadis13 wrote: »
    Detroit is obviously in a very difficult situation and does need to change many things about how it operates. However, the solutions this emergency manager will provide will very likely be short sighted and will ultimately leave Detroit in a worse place in the long run.

    What's the countdown until they sell Belle Isle??

    Probably to a group of libertarians who want to start a semi-independent commonwealth.

    This shit is fascinating. Not because it's likely-if there was a backlash about transferring it from the city to the state, can you imagine how people would take to selling it to a bunch of crazy secessionists? But because, honestly, there are not many honest proposals to actually create a real-life version of Rapture from Bioshock that might, possibly, maybe happen.

    Despite the horrific disaster it would be, I kind of want to see it happen. See what happens when you get a bunch of libertarians out of the political leadership and into their own little banana republic.

    The real fun begins after they've spent all that money building the place up and moved in - when you point out that they're surrounded by US territory, you refuse to let them enter your airspace/waters and you charge insane tolls on the trucks that bring food across the bridge. Once you've milked them for enough to get the city out of debt, you let them off the island.

    Well, it's the libertarian thing to do after all.

    Congratulations sir, the pacemaker operation was a complete success. Would you like to sign this subscription to new batteries?

    On fire
    .
    Island. Being on fire.
    kedinik
  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    I for one, look forward to seeing what Dick Jones and OCP can do for Detroit.

    MrVyngaardHacksawSeidkonaEdith UpwardsJaysonFour
  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    ronya wrote: »
    the notion that, nope, you don't have locally democratic sovereignty is certainly fine with me, but it seems to surprise some people, who appear to consider it as an inalienable right

    which in the context of a higher government that is committed toward macroeconomic stability, and yet ensures individual mobility between subordinate jurisdictions, means sacrificing other local discretions to make the system work

    For someone who posts in American politics threads so often, you seem pretty surprised that localism would be a strong and driving force within that wheelhouse.

    Even a town as small as mine (population 6,188 per the 2000 census) has its own pension and bond issue responsibilities. If you want to try convincing 25,000+ different local governments that they no longer get to exist more power to you, but that seems like a waste of energy to me.

    Having the state government, which in most cases is the supreme governing authority when it comes to municipal governments, have the power to step in and rectify the budget isn't novel, either. It just means that people need to start voting yes on tax rises.

    well yes this status quo works with a arrangement whereby a bondholder can ring up your local community up and say "pay up, or you're under oversight now" and a higher government will underwrite that threat

    what I'm saying is

    if you want a world where nobody can do that to you - not even Snyder - then that's a world where you have to defang all those 25,000+ local governments in other unpalatable ways

    aRkpc.gif
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Or one where the state of Michigan respects the will of the people. A somewhat simpler solution.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
    HacksawSeidkonaEdith UpwardsJaysonFour
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    Or one where the state of Michigan respects the will of the people. A somewhat simpler solution.

    http://www.freep.com/article/20130301/NEWS01/130301042

  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    Or one where the state of Michigan respects the will of the people. A somewhat simpler solution.

    ^ see!

    aRkpc.gif
  • PLAPLA The process.Registered User regular
    edited March 2013
    Feral wrote: »
    America: where we bail out banks, airlines, and car companies, but let municipalities go bankrupt.

    My old municipality tended to buy modern art and save money on schools. So, there you have an option for Detroit, I guess.

    Ah, they would put the art on the streets, and it would be hit by cars. I remember the duct-tape.

    PLA on
  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited March 2013
    it's respecting the will of the people

    in fact it's respecting it so much that it's screwing the current people based on decisions made by past people

    the power to bind your future is the power for the past to bind you

    ronya on
    aRkpc.gif
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    ronya wrote: »
    it's respecting the will of the people

    in fact it's respecting it so much that it's screwing the current people based on decisions made by past people

    the power to bind your future is the power for the past to bind you

    I think you're missing EB's point. The "will of the people" in question is rejecting a power grab by the state government which was then passed again via a budget trick.

    Not letting Detroit get out of paying its debts.

    Lh96QHG.png
    kedinikHacksawEdith Upwards
  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    is the contention here that there is some hypothetical course of of action that Detroit could take that would prevent bankruptcy

    aRkpc.gif
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited March 2013
    Not get fucked by asshole white people leaving and taking all the wealth with them in the 50s and 60s.

    So no. But it's not really their fault.

    enlightenedbum on
    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    Not get fucked by asshole white people leaving and taking all the wealth with them in the 50s and 60s.

    So no. But it's not really their fault.

    White flight could be one of the worst things to happen to this country in the last century. At least in the northeast.

    RedTide#1907 on Battle.net
    Come Overwatch with meeeee
    Seidkona
  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited March 2013
    no, it's not their fault

    I tried to emphasize that when I phrased it the way I did earlier: that giving cities the right to make promises makes future generations liable for those promises, whether they would have preferred it or not, or whether the older generation even lives there

    ronya on
    aRkpc.gif
  • Clown ShoesClown Shoes Give me hay or give me death. Registered User regular
    ronya wrote: »
    I tried to emphasize that when I phrased it the way I did earlier: that giving cities the right to make promises makes future generations liable for those promises, whether they would have preferred it or not, or whether the older generation even lives there

    Isn't that always going to happen to some degree when you have people making decisions about major infrastructure projects like bridges and hospitals etc?

  • L Ron HowardL Ron Howard Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    In one case the emergency manager directly took public lands and sold them to a rich corporation so they could turn a public park into a golf course.

    Isn't that the plot of Robocop?

  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    In one case the emergency manager directly took public lands and sold them to a rich corporation so they could turn a public park into a golf course.

    Isn't that the plot of Robocop?

    Nah this time were gonna use returning Iraq war vets. Totally different.

    RedTide#1907 on Battle.net
    Come Overwatch with meeeee
  • silence1186silence1186 Character shields down! As a wingmanRegistered User regular
    So a slim majority of people in Michigan can now vote to take away the local government from the rest of the state (Detroit)? And appoint someone who will definitely take care of things better (wink wink nudge nudge)? And most of the people getting their government taken away are black?

    I feel like if somehow a state where the majority of people happened to be black took away the self government from most of the white people in that state, all these militias which threaten to revolt all the time, would actually honest to goodness revolt. But because it's "just" black people in Detroit getting fucked over, apparently it's business as usual, carry on.

    V wrote:
    Words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth.

  • ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    edited March 2013
    And states are required to provide a republican form of government to the citizens, which this is not.

    The governor doesn't know republican has more than one meaning.

    And taking away rights is a very Republican form of government .

    Viskod on
    Artereis wrote: »
    It's not your fault, Viskod. 1 out of every 10 people just happens to be a monster.
  • ViskodViskod Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    In one case the emergency manager directly took public lands and sold them to a rich corporation so they could turn a public park into a golf course.

    Is that the same one that's on trial for embezzling money from the city he was supposed to rule? Because one of them totally just flat out stole money from the city in his care.

    Artereis wrote: »
    It's not your fault, Viskod. 1 out of every 10 people just happens to be a monster.
  • CalixtusCalixtus Registered User regular
    ronya wrote: »
    I tried to emphasize that when I phrased it the way I did earlier: that giving cities the right to make promises makes future generations liable for those promises, whether they would have preferred it or not, or whether the older generation even lives there

    Isn't that always going to happen to some degree when you have people making decisions about major infrastructure projects like bridges and hospitals etc?
    ronyas got more academic credentials so I'm curious as to what he'll say, but if I were to hazard a guess I'd say that the operative part there is "some degree" - the larger the region, the harder it is for the people who incurred the debt to uproot and leave in large numbers.

    Not impossible certainly, but Detroit has lost, what, 25% of its peopulation in the last decade? It is unlikely that a country like, say, France, is going to see 25% of its population emigrate when its time to pay debts previously incurred (Though certain segments certainly might).

    -This message was deviously brought to you by:
Sign In or Register to comment.